Ed, I hope you didn't take my comment the wrong way. I've seen you and Sed go at it before here on the forum, but always got the impression that you were really friends. I just assumed that we were in for an at least passionate debate. Sounds like you got it out on Facebook.

I think we've all learned over the years, with each new LOTR weapon release, that the acceptance of each was purely a matter of taste. There is always a bit of debate between those who favor a piece and those who are less than pleased. I think, like Ed describes so well, that our interperetaion of the stories are all different, and we very often have different e xp ectations of what a piece will look like in our heads from what hits the market. You can't please all of the people all of the time, and would be foolish to try.

I have LOTR weapons on my wall that I do not feel all that excited about, but I purhased them to complete my collection in a way that I wanted to achieve. I'm sure many others have done the same thing. So, if Orcrist is made as a collectible, like it or not, it will probabaly be on my wall.

Keep in mind one other thing while debating whether or not you would "buy" Orcrist. If the current economic conditions stay the same, or as it looks highly possible, gets even worse by the time the Hobbit is released, there is no guarantee that ANYONE will be making and selling a collectible replica of any of the weapons. UC's tone has sounded like they have little interest in it. It remains to be seen if someone else would take the financial gamble. It may simply remain something we only see on the screen and in our minds.

[quote=""ed209""]
Two completely different mediums, two completely (wonderful) different
Orcrists -- yet neither of them is "denying" the other one.



As for the film versions... I'm definitely "buying" that they're all "made in
Gondolin." And that's what's important and so enjoyable.[/quote]
It's pretty much how I feel about everything that's being presented;
"Made in Gondolin",
"From/of Middle Earth"

PJ/Weta interpretations of Tolkien are (imo) not undoing my love for the whole.

It wasn't Tolkien who brought me to this forum. It was buying the replicas of PJ/Weta/UC of Middle Earth.

I'm enjoying the ride all over again, with more enthusiasm than ever before.

I for one, love this version of Orcrist. I was not so sure when I first saw the pix of the full hilt, which I know you guys have not seen yet, but after seeing it from all angles with the pommel, I love it. This is not giving anything away that I'm not supposed to talk about (I always have to sign an NDA for these film projects), but if you look at the spine in the Thorin promo photo, it is obviously straight, not curved. Only the edge side is curved. Definitely asymmetrical.

The guard, blade, and engraving imply this is more of a mate to Sting than Glamdring in PJ's version of Middle earth. The inscription is interesting.

[quote=""Nasnandos""]I for one, love this version of Orcrist. I was not so sure when I first saw the pix of the full hilt, which I know you guys have not seen yet, but after seeing it from all angles with the pommel, I love it. This is not giving anything away that I'm not supposed to talk about (I always have to sign an NDA for these film projects), but if you look at the spine in the Thorin promo photo, it is obviously straight, not curved. Only the edge side is curved. Definitely asymmetrical.

The guard, blade, and engraving imply this is more of a mate to Sting than Glamdring in PJ's version of Middle earth. The inscription is interesting.[/quote]

Thanks for clearing this up for us Kit!

[quote=""Nasnandos""]The guard, blade, and engraving imply this is more of a mate to Sting than Glamdring in PJ's version of Middle earth.[/quote]

I knew it! Vindication at last!

[quote=""Valkrist""]I knew it! Vindication at last![/quote]
Yeah, but I still would have really liked a blade of grass sharpened edge on that spine; that would have been just bad a$$.
Guess I know what crazy mod I'll be doing to this one.

ok so I was doodling away yesterday. I looked at what Kit pointed out to us about the blade shape for Orcrist, its straight along the back edge but the front cutting edge is curved.

So I have done a sketch of Orcrist. This was drawn from what I could see from the photo of Thorin and then Kit's description about the blade. I gave it sting's pommel for now because we don't know what it looks like. Its basically what I think Orcrist may look like

Just wanted to know what you lot thought about it. Have I got the blade the way it was described?

The grip/pommel parts of the hilt do not look anything like Sting, or any previous LOTR sword. Quite different and unique, but I think it will be a love it or hate it thing. IMO, I think it suits Thorin perfectly.

[quote=""Nasnandos""]The grip/pommel parts of the hilt do not look anything like Sting, or any previous LOTR sword. Quite different and unique, but I think it will be a love it or hate it thing. IMO, I think it suits Thorin perfectly.[/quote]

Oh ok. So it has a new pommel. I just put a sting style pommel on my sketch for now. I am really excited for this sword, what do you think the chances are of Weta being allowed to release photos of it in the coming future?

Totally different grip too. Nothing like Sting or Glamdring. That's the part people may love or hate.

Weta should not be releasing anything, but PJ or WB may release more pix of Thorin & co. in the future, and I'm sure there will be more video blogs to come that may offer a glimpse of the full sword.

I kind of hope they don't show it. I can imagine the counterfeits are already being mocked up in the el cheapo knockoff factories in China and India as we speak, just based on the pix available on the web now.

I almost wish I had not seen any of the props myself, but it's my job. I would rather be surprised seeing them on screen the first time in the theater, as they were meant to be shown. But they have to promote the film and create the excitement leading up to December 2012, so we are sure to see more promotional pix.

[quote=""Nasnandos""]
I kind of hope they don't show it. I can imagine the counterfeits are already being mocked up in the el cheapo knockoff factories in China and India as we speak, just based on the pix available on the web now.
[/quote]

Is there nothing Warner Bros. can do to stop the manufacture of the conterfeit replicas?

All WB can do is go after the distributors and sellers here in the US who they find selling them. It's practically impossible to do in China or India. New Line actively went after counterfeiters for LOTR, but after a while they stopped. I hope WB actively protects TH.

When shall we learn the designer of this thing? Before the premiere
(hopefully)? Or is that info confidential too?

My guess is Daniel Falconer.

[quote=""ed209""]When shall we learn the designer of this thing? Before the premiere
(hopefully)? Or is that info confidential too?

My guess is Daniel Falconer.[/quote]

Yeh, I think it may be Falconer as well.

They better jewel the hilt like it says in the book.

[quote=""RevAnakin""]They better jewel the hilt like it says in the book.[/quote]
Yeah, it's gonna be interesting to see what it's really going to look like.

I don't know what compelled me, but I took a moment to entertain an idea just now. These aren't final or really that well attempted, but I think it captures my vague impression of what I'd go for with the sword. I'm not exactly a fan, but if I were serious about this I'd do additional drafts and get it somewhere in the ballpark of "good". Just sort of for fun... let me know what you guys think.

But first, let's have some proper music, yes? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUIZvAe3RBg

Orcrist "sketches":

http://c0359001.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspac ... 2886-0.jpg


Obviously some Glamdring-or-Sting inspiration here. I think the guard turned out more like Faramir's sword, which is funny because it was originally too much like Strider's (all I was doing to achieve that was make a straighter and sharper Glamdring guard, go figure) so I added another dimension to it and "dulled" the tips. The "Sting" variant meant to have a different center guard design but I was getting bored so I kept the "Glamdring" version I had done first. I'm not a fan of the pommel on that one though, as much as I like the grip. It's too "Me" and not enough "Weta". Basically I was going for an "opened up" version of Glamdring's pommel, but veered off course and churned an ugly mess.

It's been a long time since I read the Hobbit, so I hope I didn't screw anything up too badly. For some reason I've just always pictured Orcrist in red. So I worked from there, mashing the other two Gondolin blades together I suppose.

Thoughts? Opinions? Critiques? (surely you have those!)

I like the hilt on the right one and the blade on the left. Of course it needs jewels and inscription, but nonetheless nice drawing. Hmm, someone who isn't a fan... don't know what to say there lol considering that I took a Tolkien class and studied only that.

Thanks. I meant I'm not a fan of the designs. And actually, there is a jewel and inscription. Both are in the same place as Glamdring's. I apologize if it's not clear, as the resolution isn't that great.

I like them both ...I like the blade better on the left one, and the guard, grip and pommel better on the right one.

But I most definitely like them them both much more than that....thing that Thorin is holding.

(However, because I have to get Orcrist for my collection...I will buy the thing, but under protest.)

Oh, I see them now, just a little hard to see. I have to admit, I like the half etch on hilt onto blade style of sting, which is on the current orcrist but nonetheless your designs are great, hell I wish I could draw like that without autocad or solidworks.

[quote=""Deimos""]

(However, because I have to get Orcrist for my collection...I will buy the thing, but under protest.)[/quote]


Heheheehhe! Thank you very much.

Also, not sure if it's easy to see, but the "Sting-inspired" one has the vine pattern embossed on the leather.


Rev, funny you should say that, as I was *this close* to putting that engraving on there and even debated having it trail from the inscription like it should, but leaving the opposite side bare.

But like I said, I could go on and make a dozen of these with varying options. I'm sure I'll grow to like what they've come up with for the movie, but I can't help but entertain all the possibilities of what could be. But maybe that's why they did what they did.

I do think they went more curve on Orcrist honestly because of the nickname. Glamdring is "beater" and Orcrist is "Biter," So it seems they went with something a bit more sting-like that would have less of a beat and more bite.

[quote=""RevAnakin""]I do think they went more curve on Orcrist honestly because of the nickname. Glamdring is "beater" and Orcrist is "Biter," So it seems they went with something a bit more sting-like that would have less of a beat and more bite.[/quote]

Again, without looking it up, I believe the names "Beater" and Biter" were more nicknames for the two swords than literal translations.

From whatever Elvish language (Quenyan? Sindarin?) those names originate, Glamdring means "Foe-Hammer" or "Hammerer-of-Foes" ( a disitnction without a difference to whomever is being hammered) and Orcrist is Goblin-Cleaver.

Soooo, Rev....to carry your assertion to the point of absurdity (or silliness) Thorin should be swinging a jewel encrusted fancy meat cleaver (shades of the UC MC RMC!) and Gandalf should be wielding a...a...a hammer with a guard, grip and pommel!

(Sed, think you can draw either of those for clarity?)

Sorry Rev,....just couldn't resist!

Boy, I don't know. I think it's beyond my skills to draw. We need Elvish medicine.

I have to say I cannot resist either, because I clearly said that was their nicknames. The goblins nicknamed the swords that. You are correct on your elvish translations, which makes even more sense why Orcrist should be single sided. Single sided swords have traditionally been cleaving swords, where double sided swords truly "beat" or "hammer" the crap out of enemies. Just speaking on my opinion as a swordsman.

Well I think it's a little (okay maybe a lot) open to interpretation to say "biter" means single and "beater" means double. Nicknames would depend more on the manner of their use, which would vary with technique from person to person or general blade shape to blade shape -- even within the family of double-edged blades. It's a bit silly to say Orcrist should be single-edged because they call it biter. I understand the connection to Sting there, but there's a good example of a double-edged sword being used to "bite" AKA thrust/slash.

Hey Rev, why so serious? Just having a bit of fun...IT WAS A JOKE, man!

Soooo (more silliness) ...if you want to get literal about names, then Gandalf should have gone around whackin' all his enemies with an over hand motion, like he did when he beat on the Balrog as they fell.
Foe HAMMERER...get it? But he didn't. He used a lot of different motions depending on the situation and his opponent.
So like Sed said (hmmmm Sed said...said Sed) it's pretty much open to interpretation.

[quote=""Deimos""]From whatever Elvish language (Quenyan? Sindarin?) those names originate[/quote]

Quenya, I believe.

I think I have to side with Rev. If the goblins hated the swords and their wielders enough to remember them through the ages, they would have remembered a dinstinction between the swords. If Glamdring was indeed a two-hander that "hammerd" its victims, Orcist probably had something different that set it and its nickname apart from Glamdring.

The point I am trying to get across is precisely what you said Sedhal, it is open to interpretation. I am not saying that "Biter" HAS to be single-sided. I am not saying that "Beater" HAS to be a double handed long sword. And indeed Hammer and Cleaver don't HAVE to mean those respective representations either. All I was saying was these are possible reasons WHY THEY might have done what they did. Trust me, I visioned Orcrist as a double sided sword similar to Glamdring as well. Or on that note, all the Elf Swords in the movies are single sided and curved so maybe Glamdring is the odd-man-out?

Of course, on the note of the names coming from sword style of the user, the swords themselves became famous, not their wielders, so many different people probably used both swords different ways when the Elves were nailing the goblins, so as Fin said, there is probably some distinction to be made from the way the swords are. Hey, biter could have been a shorter (Boromir like) sword with a really fine pointed blade that was notorious for stabbing away. *shrugs shoulders*

Sting's double sided and elven made.

Ok so I was looking through pictures of the weapons from lord of the rings and came across this picture of one of the daggers that merry and pippin get. The blade shape is like what Kit pointed out when he was talking about Orcrist, it is straight along the spine but has a curved edge. It also looks like the crappy sketch I did the other week of what I thought orcrist would look like and also like the sword that Ed posted at the start of the thread but a bit more elegant.

First that is a WEIRD display, hmm, Hadhafang (elven), Elven High Sword, Elven Daggers, oh look there is Boromirs?!?!?! sword!

To Thran, I have to say, I did say Elven Swords not elven daggers

Honestly, this design could have gone any way imaginable. I mean how functional really is the High Elven Sword? Eh, but so many people bought it and its worth quite a bit. I feel as if Orcrist makes itself to be a distinguished Hadhafang. Worst case scenario all us with Hadhafang have a partner to hang horizontally with.

EG, I think the shape of the blade was fairly obvious from the initial photo, and yet you're still doing some surface-scratching detective work. Have you ever seen a falcata or any blade of similar shape? I think ed even opened this thread with a photo of the Machaera.

[quote=""Sedhal""]EG, I think the shape of the blade was fairly obvious from the initial photo, and yet you're still doing some surface-scratching detective work. Have you ever seen a falcata or any blade of similar shape? I think ed even opened this thread with a photo of the Machaera.[/quote]


I am not that familiar with falcatas Sed, the Machaera was the first blade I have seen like that. I am really excited for Orcrist and I have a tendency to go off one one every now and then and repost stuff that has already been covered, or if I come across an image like the one I found I'll post it to show you lot and try and get a discussion about it going but the problem is,we've already discussed it. Silly me.

I like your designs of Orcrist Sed by the way. I saw those the other day and they both look really cool

Thanks!

I personally hate handling falcatas but nonetheless we can only assume (until more pictures surface) that it will be a cross in between Hadhafang and a falcataish sword.

Im surprised i was the only person who caught this. noticed it in a split second in a recent video released by jackson. And it is now my gift to all of you enjoy the full view of what orcrist really looks like.






[quote=""Valkrist""]A very good question.

I took a quick peek myself, and you're right, it's not in those two parts, if anywhere at all in that book.

Looking Orcrist up online reveals that everyone says the same thing: Glamdring and Orcrist are "mated" blades.

Here, see for yourself in the History section: http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Orcrist

The interesting thing about your discovery is that if Tolkien himself never said the swords were mated but simply that they came from Gondolin, then it could be theorized that this classification was added later simply due to the fact that the swords were found together in the troll-hole. It then follows that Orcrist does not have to bear too much of a resemblance to Glamdring. The text does state that Orcrist, like Glamdring, had a jeweled hilt. I don't quite see that in the picture, but it could be there.

Edit: Just thought of something interesting to this analysis - in LOTR, the decision was made to not have Glamdring glow blue in the presence of orcs, though the text clearly states that it does. So does Orcrist. What will happen in this movie then? If they make both of them glow, then it creates a continuity problem between the two movies. If they make only Orcrist glow and not Glamdring, that's kind of silly. Therefore, I think neither one of them will glow, which is a shame. I wish PJ would go back to LOTR and fix that in a future release. Glamdring should glow, and so should Orcrist.[/quote]


Also just wanna add! that my snap shot answered yet another question! the sword has greenish paint on it with probably means they are going to do glowing effects on it! (like green screen)

[quote=""Conan""]Also just wanna add! that my snap shot answered yet another question! the sword has greenish paint on it with probably means they are going to do glowing effects on it! (like green screen)[/quote]


I think the green you're seeing is a reflection of the massive green back drop on the set.

Thanks for posting the pics Conan, but most of us had seen it and was being discussed in "The Hobbit" thread after the video diary was released, also if you follow that thread, the last couple of days, a user named Nasnandos has been providing info and answering questions, his real name is Kit Rae and is basically in charge of the UC LOTR and now Hobbit sword replica productions. So if you hop over to that thread you can find a lot of info straight from the source.


But again, thanks for the pics, we can never have enough pics of the new weapons that may be gracing our walls in the next year or so!

[quote=""Steel Servant""]I think the green you're seeing is a reflection of the massive green back drop on the set.[/quote]

Yep, would have to agree there. I watched the whole video blog and that scene in particular, and it's fairly obvious that it's merely a reflection of the green screen, like Steel pointed out. I fully e xp ect that to be removed in the final edit. Besides, the group never encounters any orcs or goblins in Mirkwood, and that is clearly where they are, so why would Orcrist be glowing?

[quote=""BladeCollector""]Thanks for posting the pics Conan, but most of us had seen it and was being discussed in "The Hobbit" thread after the video diary was released, also if you follow that thread, the last couple of days, a user named Nasnandos has been providing info and answering questions, his real name is Kit Rae and is basically in charge of the UC LOTR and now Hobbit sword replica productions. So if you hop over to that thread you can find a lot of info straight from the source.


But again, thanks for the pics, we can never have enough pics of the new weapons that may be gracing our walls in the next year or so![/quote]

Way to steal my thunder! lol just kidding. thanks for the info! could you send a link to that thread?

[quote=""Valkrist""]Yep, would have to agree there. I watched the whole video blog and that scene in particular, and it's fairly obvious that it's merely a reflection of the green screen, like Steel pointed out. I fully e xp ect that to be removed in the final edit. Besides, the group never encounters any orcs or goblins in Mirkwood, and that is clearly where they are, so why would Orcrist be glowing?[/quote]

Good point i hadnt thought of that lol.

[quote=""Valkrist""]Yep, would have to agree there. I watched the whole video blog and that scene in particular, and it's fairly obvious that it's merely a reflection of the green screen, like Steel pointed out. I fully e xp ect that to be removed in the final edit. Besides, the group never encounters any orcs or goblins in Mirkwood, and that is clearly where they are, so why would Orcrist be glowing?[/quote]

Why couldn't they encounter orcs/goblins in Mirkwood? We had elves at Helm's Deep.

[quote=""MorgulMike""]Why couldn't they encounter orcs/goblins in Mirkwood? We had elves at Helm's Deep. [/quote]

That's because they encounter something else in mirkwood.

And that is where Bilbo finally names his sword sting.

Mike's asking for a beatdown, that's what...

I'm just pointing out that there was a bit of artistic license used.

Oh, I know that... and I was just pointing out that I don't like artistic licenses being taken with my favourite books.

With my new display case finished, I'm excited about the shape of Orcist. It's going to fit in this case perfectly.

I wasn't happy with the shape of Orcrist when it was first released, but I think it would look really good displayed with Hadhafang on one side and Glamdring in the middle.