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Yes, that is the greatest crime and I do not understand how Tolkien State has allowed it. I guess just for the money.

It would have been incredible if they had chosen actors for different ages of the human characters to see them grow old, and that every 2 seasons there were new human generations while the elves remain unchanged. That would have shown the authenticity and true nature of the elves that we can read about in the books.

Having immortal characters such as the elves as true axis of history, I do not understand the need to preserve humans throughout the entire series, having to condense 3000 years in this way, ending any sensation of immensity in the events that occur. If the stories of the first and second ages have something special, it is that they are bigger and more important, more vast in a single human life.

And of Galadriel in Xena plan, I still have the hope that they do not go overboard with his adventures, that it is only a couple of scenes and does not focus too much on that, leaving the important story aside. I hope he doesn't become another Witcher.

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I just honestly don't see how they can do the series without altering the time frame, unless there's time jumps between seasons. The series as been pre-green lit for at least 5 seasons, 3000 years over 5 seasons is rough, now not every year of those 3000 years is packed with action, but lets put it in context (ish). 3000 years before today was what 980 BC? Lets pick on England since thats roughly old school Middle Earth, make a 5 season show from 980BC to 2022AD, something is going to have to be left out or compressed.


As far as Galadriel complete with Battle Ready Action, I can't explain that one yet... but I am sure it will sell a lot of toys.

Some people might be turned off from JRRT because of this show, but some might be like me, I didnt know what LOTR was until the movies came out, and wasn't even interested in it until right before The Two Towers came out and went back and watched FOTR, and 20 years and thousands of dollars in weapons and collectibles later, here I am
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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BC, I guess my point is, if they can't be bothered to at least make a reasonable effort to not completely compress 3000 years of history, then perhaps they shouldn't bother at all? Essentially, they want their cake here, and to eat it too, and everything that makes this story what it is - the massive scope, the complex mythos, the epic saga, the multi-generational conflicts on an entire world - all of that is lost because they didn't want to come up with a way to do it. Why?

Well, because your average viewer today has the attention span of a gnat and I'm sure Amazon will throw lots of data at us where research shows that if you can't make a connection with the characters because they're being changed out every season, then you've got a recipe for failure on your hands. I'm not inclined to disagree, to be honest, but then all that says to me is that these are not the right books for them to be adapting if they're just looking for the easy way out.

There have been series and documentaries that have successfully pulled this off, at least for me, but that's not mainstream enough for these writers and producers. Everything revolves around instant gratification these days, and having to remember 100 actors and the names they are attached to is too much, even if you get 5 seasons by default. I get the reason, but it makes this not be Middle-earth for me. Not even close.
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I get what you're saying, just invoking conversation. I've personally always thought that some of the more complex mythos of Middle Earth should maybe be filmed in an anthology style. Have a mini series of Beren and Luthien, or a mini series of the Fall of Gondolin, etc. You're telling the stories but you're not trying to compress the entirety of middle earth into 5 seasons (or more, I'm just saying 5 seasons because that seems to be what it was originally guaranteed to be.)

I think that MIGHT be what sort of maybe kind of happened for WoT, the timeline in the tv show was moving at 300 miles per hour. Its like they wanted to tell as much story as possible in case the show got cancelled? I dont know.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Of course it's all conversation. :)

I can see how someone might be reading my posts and imagining me pounding at the keys of my keyboard in a rage; red-faced and in a state of near-apoplexy, but nothing could be further from the truth. :O

It really amounts more to disappointment, and yes, a considerable amount of quiet and contemplative upset that something I never thought possible in my lifetime will actually come to pass, yet my perception of it all thus far is that of a massively missed and squandered opportunity, the potential critical failure of which could well doom any further attempts to do this story justice while I still draw breath.

In case you haven't figured it out, this is a passionate topic for me on a series of works that have been formative in my life and have, in many ways, shaped the individual I am today. So, it borders on the personal though I know it shouldn't because this is not my story. I just hate the prospect of seeing it treated poorly, with disregard, and a lack of understanding about what makes it special and unique.
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Valkrist wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:00 pm Of course it's all conversation. :)

I can see how someone might be reading my posts and imagining me pounding at the keys of my keyboard in a rage; red-faced and in a state of near-apoplexy, but nothing could be further from the truth. :O
You mean you're not screaming like Kirk yelling "khaaaaaaaaaaan" like you're avatar?
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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:laugh:
BladeCollector wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 11:43 am I get what you're saying, just invoking conversation. I've personally always thought that some of the more complex mythos of Middle Earth should maybe be filmed in an anthology style. Have a mini series of Beren and Luthien, or a mini series of the Fall of Gondolin, etc. You're telling the stories but you're not trying to compress the entirety of middle earth into 5 seasons (or more, I'm just saying 5 seasons because that seems to be what it was originally guaranteed to be.)
Hopefully one day we will see something like this, with the myths well told, taking their time. That would be ideal.

Maybe if this works they will make more series or movies, and maybe the next showrunner is a true Tolkien reader and doesn't need to change so many things.

Let them do the Silmarillion, well developed. I hope I can see it in my lifetime.

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So after all I could still be right about that sword with horse head on the pommel from the poster being Eorl's :laugh:
(Having in mind that timeline compression)

Joking aside... I enjoyed reading discussion on this tread. Strong arguments, educational information about the lore...

I had high hopes for The Hobbit 10 years ago.... It wasn't woke, PJ was in charge, Howard Shore, John Howe, Alan Lee and Tom Shippey were involved... AND still I didn't like it. I was very dissapointed.
I don't have any expectations regarding this new tv show.
It looks like it's going to be some sort of a GoT-WoT mix but I will watch it.

This all made me realise even more how a book is a far superior medium than a movie or a tv show. You read it and your imagination creates the world as you like it to be.

Also, whether I will like the show or not, the show itself will increase interest in Tolkien and Middle Earth (LOTR, The Hobbit,The Silmarillion...) so there will be people that will be interested in reading books to see what more is there and that comforts me...

And in the end, this increase in interest will help UC bring us new goodies from the good old LOTR :inlove:
"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, today is a gift - that's why they call it the present."

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Watched the trailer on YouTube.

About as generic-looking as it gets for (insert any name here) fantasy show. It was brief, and all the scenes shown had no real context, except perhaps Galadriel showing off how athletic she is while hanging from her dagger on a cliff side.

Zero of what was shown spoke of Middle-earth or Tolkien to me. Zero. Kudos to the casting choice for Gil-galad, the only positive I saw in that jumble of images from Dungeons & Dragons: The Things of Power.

At this point, "whatever" is about the only word I have left for this show.
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I do think it looks a bit better than generic fantasy tbf. Though it’s only a teaser, I do think it’s somewhat promising.

I want to clarify my views earlier as there’s been a fair bit of discussion since then. From a world building perspective, having diversity that makes sense is what I was alluding to. I’m not offended by having black elves, Asian elves or any type of elves. The more elves, the better. It’s dwarves I’m not to keen on, but that’s another issue for another time.

The thing that made me so against this series right from the get go was because I just knew it wouldn’t really marry up with PJ’s movies. Say what you want about The Hobbit but they still felt like they belonged in the same Middle Earth that was crafted in Rings.

I’m saddened by those awful YouTube channels already tearing this series apart, not for anything constructive, but because it simply has a more diverse cast. Just looking for the trailer, I couldn’t actually get away from their clickbaity videos and stupid thumbnails. They’re the same accounts that pop up with anything Star Wars related. I don’t mind people criticising, I have criticised this series since it was announced, I just hate it when it becomes toxic. Let’s not get away from the fact that these YouTubers are getting rich from spewing their vile vitriolic crap.

The guy who plays Elrond looks promising, and I think I can live with this Galadriel. Is the elf in the golden robe Gil-Galad or Celebrimbor?

I feel myself coming round to this series though. I’ve gone from being very much against it and now I’m at the point I’ll be giving it a watch when it airs.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Yep...the guy who made that youtube video nailed it. And he explained it very, very well.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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I saw the trailer last night, I waited until it aired and then I stayed up for a few more hours watching TheOneRing live... and today I'm defeated by how little I've slept.
Valkrist wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 5:31 pm Watched the trailer on YouTube.

About as generic-looking as it gets for (insert any name here) fantasy show. It was brief, and all the scenes shown had no real context, except perhaps Galadriel showing off how athletic she is while hanging from her dagger on a cliff side.

Zero of what was shown spoke of Middle-earth or Tolkien to me. Zero. Kudos to the casting choice for Gil-galad, the only positive I saw in that jumble of images from Dungeons & Dragons: The Things of Power.

At this point, "whatever" is about the only word I have left for this show.
The truth is that yes, from the trailer it is not possible to deduce how faithful they will be to Tolkien's work, because it almost seems like a generic fantasy show. They have focused on showing all his invented material and things that have little to do with the second age that we know.

And yes, Gil-Galad is the only character that looks like something out of the PJ movies and he seems like the only male elf with long hair. A lot of money invested and not a dollar in wigs for the rest of the elves :P
Lindir wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 6:58 pm I do think it looks a bit better than generic fantasy tbf. Though it’s only a teaser, I do think it’s somewhat promising.

I want to clarify my views earlier as there’s been a fair bit of discussion since then. From a world building perspective, having diversity that makes sense is what I was alluding to. I’m not offended by having black elves, Asian elves or any type of elves. The more elves, the better. It’s dwarves I’m not to keen on, but that’s another issue for another time.

The thing that made me so against this series right from the get go was because I just knew it wouldn’t really marry up with PJ’s movies. Say what you want about The Hobbit but they still felt like they belonged in the same Middle Earth that was crafted in Rings.

I’m saddened by those awful YouTube channels already tearing this series apart, not for anything constructive, but because it simply has a more diverse cast. Just looking for the trailer, I couldn’t actually get away from their clickbaity videos and stupid thumbnails. They’re the same accounts that pop up with anything Star Wars related. I don’t mind people criticising, I have criticised this series since it was announced, I just hate it when it becomes toxic. Let’s not get away from the fact that these YouTubers are getting rich from spewing their vile vitriolic crap.

The guy who plays Elrond looks promising, and I think I can live with this Galadriel. Is the elf in the golden robe Gil-Galad or Celebrimbor?

I feel myself coming round to this series though. I’ve gone from being very much against it and now I’m at the point I’ll be giving it a watch when it airs.
It's supposed to be Gil-Galad, I hope.

I don't even look at those YouTube channels directly, as soon as I see a clickbait thumbnail, I never open that type of video, because then YouTube starts recommending that type of content.

After I didn't like the trailer too much yesterday... It seems that they focus a lot on the hobbits, that should not be in the second age, and on meteor-man (in the end what he feared is fulfilled and they show how he arrives crashing with his body against the ground in a meteorite and coming out of a crater, so we have Goku instead of Superman in the show)

This morning I downloaded it to be able to stop it accurately and see the details. Stopping the shots that go by faster, I can get some good things, but not too many.

Gil-Galad, the dwarves aren't bad, the orcs (from what little you can see of them in battle, they seem to be PJ movie style too), Numenor in the foreground doesn't look bad, although the CGI is too noticeable as mentioned by N2Darkness.

The monster that roared, when I saw it the first time I didn't even know what it was, but seeing it standing still, I can deduce that it will be a snow troll, and if it weren't for its big mouth and wild boar-like fangs, it could look like quite the trolls we are used to.

And Galadriel crossing the ice, followed by other elves, yes it is in the first age when the Noldor have to cross Helcaraxë, it can be interesting ...although yesterday they commented live that Amazon does not have the rights to that part of the story, so, I don't know what they are really showing us.

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The trailer gave me a Narnia vibe. Not enough there to really give me a feeling other than mild disappointment, but I'll wait to see more. It did not evoke Middle-earth to me.

The orcs seem to be consistent with the PJ movies. They even have the same Uruk-Hai berserker sword styling from TTT.
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The hilts of the Elf swords in the orc battle scene look a bit thik and clunky. Deeply fullered blades.
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The elf helms and shields do not interest me at all, from a collectible stand point. Maybe in context that feeling will change. I wish they had added some light surface decor to them, like in Alan Lee's illustrations.
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KRDS

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Warrior Galadriel appears to have two versions of that golden sword/dagger/spike thing. The one she uses to climb the ice wall in the trailer is smaller than the one in the promo photos from last week. It also looks like she is wearing a different dagger in the horseback scene from the trailer than this.
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Her sword is kind of interesting. It looks more like one of my Swords of the Ancients designs than Middle-earth, but it seems to be the most practical-looking thing shown so far, at least for the hilt. I hope that's a gray leather wrapped grip and not metal.
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KRDS

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His quiver looks like the ebony quiver from Skyrim.

Definitely not impressed by the weapons. I don’t mind the helmets, but they’re pretty unremarkable but those elven swords definitely look ugly.

Was Weta involved in this at all?
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Weta is listed has having worked on the movies. I can only assume it was for the weapons and armour design, and if they look crappy (and they do) I suspect that's because they were told by the higher ups in the production that that's how they wanted them to look, rather than be given the freedom to create more realistic gear as they did for the movies.

The scene with Galadriel hanging from the ice cliff has been skewered several times now in that she shows absolutely no strain on her face or difficulty apparent in what would be an enormous feat of strength for anyone. She even casually adjusts her grip on the dagger, and don't even get me started on climbing an ice wall with metal gauntlets. She is standing on a box, not even pretending to be hanging from a green screen cliff, and the lack of selling that robs the scene of any tension. There's already arguments that, well... elves were as light as a feather. so why should gravity be a problem? Ugh, ok... she may as well wait for an updraft then and let it float her to the top if that's how ridiculous you want to go in order to justify this sort of thing.

I also agree that it seems that a ton of emphasis is going to be put on the Hobbits, right down with starting the trailer with a voice that sounds Hobbity and is saying Hobbity things... I guess they couldn't resist not dragging the audience of the previous movies in with member berries of having everything in Middle-earth having to have Hobbits present. I will be utterly shocked if that main Hobbit girl's last name (the one destined to be best buds with Kal-El or Mork from Ork or whatever he is) doesn't turn out to be Baggins.

Edit: The Critical Drinker youtube video... nearly forgot. Yes, he explains well and exactly what is wrong with all this, and how a wall has been raised up around the argument, and defenders of this nonsense have basically shoved their fingers in the their ears while chanting "lalala racist... lalala racist... lalala racist". How convenient it has become to not engage in critical thinking and dismiss the validity of an argument by throwing a blanket over it and label any rationale that attempts to reason why some changes don't fit by declaring it narrow-minded and unaccepting. The stench of hypocrisy in that is more than I can bear. If I have to hear one more false-equivalency argument about how PJ changed stuff and people love those movies, so why is this different, I swear I'll scream bloody murder. If you can't scratch beneath your superficial understanding of what sets these two things apart in how they were handled, then I'm afraid you're beyond my capacity to reason with.
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I havent seen the trailer, nor do I want to do... after scrolling a couple FB threads, I can, with 100% confidence say, I no longer want to be part of any Tolkien Fandom.

I swear if LOTR was released today, people would be calling it "woke" because Eowyn says "I am no man"

Maybe I was more of a LOTR fan than a Tolkien fan after it is all said and done. PJ introduced me to LOTR, so I went back and read LOTR and enjoyed it. Every other thing I've read from Tolkien I have not enjoyed and just read to be more in tune with the overall mythology. Ie, I forced myself to finish Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and recently (last couple of months) Beren and Luthien, Fall of Gondolin, and Children of Hurin.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Lindir wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 5:55 am Was Weta involved in this at all?
Weta Digital was involved with the show a few years ago, but I'm not sure if they still are, and I'm not sure the workshop has anything to do with these props and armor. Without some of the key LOTR designers on board - like Alan Lee, John Howe, Daniel Falconer, Ben Wootten, Warren Mahey - it's not going to look the Middle-earth of the films. I know John Howe was involved early on, but the only real official announcement about that was that he worked on the show maps.
KRDS

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BladeCollector wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:00 am I havent seen the trailer, nor do I want to do... after scrolling a couple FB threads, I can, with 100% confidence say, I no longer want to be part of any Tolkien Fandom.

I swear if LOTR was released today, people would be calling it "woke" because Eowyn says "I am no man"

Maybe I was more of a LOTR fan than a Tolkien fan after it is all said and done. PJ introduced me to LOTR, so I went back and read LOTR and enjoyed it. Every other thing I've read from Tolkien I have not enjoyed and just read to be more in tune with the overall mythology. Ie, I forced myself to finish Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and recently (last couple of months) Beren and Luthien, Fall of Gondolin, and Children of Hurin.
I get where you’re coming from BC. I think I’ve outlined my response above as best I can. I was against this series because I was concerned it wouldn’t marry up with what PJ had created, because for me that is Middle Earth and the Middle Earth I fell in love with.

The vast majority of the response that I’ve seen is definitely racist in its rhetoric and drowns out the genuine criticisms of this series. Instead of it being “this is a massive change to Galadriel’s character” it’s some reiteration of “why are there black people???!???”

It’s the same issue with Star Wars. It’s not a healthy debate or criticism, it’s incredibly toxic. I never thought it would happen with Middle Earth but here we are.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Lindir wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:01 pm ...

The vast majority of the response that I’ve seen is definitely racist in its rhetoric and drowns out the genuine criticisms of this series. Instead of it being “this is a massive change to Galadriel’s character” it’s some reiteration of “why are there black people???!???”
...
Lindir, did you watch the Youtube video that N2 posted the link to?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QJbAbe2yyo
If you watch it you may understand why some people are criticizing the changes that are the result of incorporating "diversity".
Granted, some people are racist and that's all there is to it, but please watch the video.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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Nothing is immune from this nonsense. Nothing.

The real tragedy here is that all the bile that is being spewed while people spin their wheels about race is drowning out what few of us are willing to engage in genuine discourse. It's a shame hearing people slowly leaving this thread (I count three now) because they've had enough, and frankly it shocks me that that's the reaction given how civil we remain here compared to other places I've seen. If you think what you read here is even close to bad, then I strongly suggest you don't venture anywhere else on the internet nowadays.

On the other hand, I really shouldn't talk. I abandoned another forum out of frustration over what is essentially a reverse-effect of what you guys are decrying: it became impossible to venture a negative opinion or thought on this series because every counter-argument got twisted and thrown back to a default cry of intolerance. It's become a thin, meaningless defense because it's an easy and convenient straw man to hide behind when you have no way to apply common sense and logically argue your point. No, it's much easier to label and shout louder than the other person, apparently.
This Space for Rent

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Don’t worry, Deimos I will watch it just not gotten round to it yet.

Tbf Val this is the most civilised place there is to discuss this topic. It’s nothing like the cesspools of Reddit or Facebook or the other larger forums. We’ve all managed to remain civil and respectful.

I have seen people as you say Val using racism and cries of bigotry as an excuse to defend this series. For me though it’s the overwhelming racist stuff that feels disheartening simply because I’ve just seen more of it. I guess it’s more down to the places that we frequent on the internet.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Valkrist wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:51 pm Nothing is immune from this nonsense. Nothing.

The real tragedy here is that all the bile that is being spewed while people spin their wheels about race is drowning out what few of us are willing to engage in genuine discourse. It's a shame hearing people slowly leaving this thread (I count three now) because they've had enough, and frankly it shocks me that that's the reaction given how civil we remain here compared to other places I've seen. If you think what you read here is even close to bad, then I strongly suggest you don't venture anywhere else on the internet nowadays.

On the other hand, I really shouldn't talk. I abandoned another forum out of frustration over what is essentially a reverse-effect of what you guys are decrying: it became impossible to venture a negative opinion or thought on this series because every counter-argument got twisted and thrown back to a default cry of intolerance. It's become a thin, meaningless defense because it's an easy and convenient straw man to hide behind when you have no way to apply common sense and logically argue your point. No, it's much easier to label and shout louder than the other person, apparently.
I'm still here reading, I haven't abandoned the thread, and It's still the most civilized place to debate. :) Simply these days I have an urgent job to deliver that it doesn't leave me much time for anything, and I'm very slow writing in English so I can only read them at times... that's the bad thing about working as a freelancer from home, when there's work , I,m working all day.

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From the latest Vanity Fair article.
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/20 ... s-of-power

"It’s worth remembering, if only for legal reasons, that this is not the exact same world. The production design, though similar, is not trying to match the Jackson films. For example, King Elendil’s legendary broken sword, Narsil, which debuted on one of Prime Video’s promotional posters, does not look identical to the one eventually reforged and used by Viggo Mortenson’s Aragorn in The Return of the King."

Another disappointment, but I guess that could be a good thing in one respect. If the show is bad and tanks, it won't put a stain on some of the designs I love from PJ's LOTR.
Last edited by Nasnandos on Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
KRDS

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Nasnandos wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:14 am From the latest Vanity Fair article.

"It’s worth remembering, if only for legal reasons, that this is not the exact same world. The production design, though similar, is not trying to match the Jackson films. For example, King Elendil’s legendary broken sword, Narsil, which debuted on one of Prime Video’s promotional posters, does not look identical to the one eventually reforged and used by Viggo Mortenson’s Aragorn in The Return of the King."

Another disappointment, but I guess that could be a good thing in one respect. If the show is bad and tanks, it won't put a stain on some of the designs I love from PJ's LOTR.
Than it really makes you wonder why they hired John Howe as a conceptual artist and Howard Shore for the soundtrack then? They should have just stated from the very beginning that this was going to be an original take on Tolkien's previous work. Would have saved a bunch of people being upset or disappointing thinking they were going to be getting one thing and then seeing something completely different.

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Nasnandos wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:14 am From the latest Vanity Fair article.

"It’s worth remembering, if only for legal reasons, that this is not the exact same world. The production design, though similar, is not trying to match the Jackson films. For example, King Elendil’s legendary broken sword, Narsil, which debuted on one of Prime Video’s promotional posters, does not look identical to the one eventually reforged and used by Viggo Mortenson’s Aragorn in The Return of the King."

Another disappointment, but I guess that could be a good thing in one respect. If the show is bad and tanks, it won't put a stain on some of the designs I love from PJ's LOTR.
Yes, I just read it too. I wished that it wasn't Narsil, that it was Anglachel retrieved from the seas or some other invented sword... but it seems not, which in the end is Narsil.

I don't like that kind of design at all for a Numeronian sword... and even less so for Narsil.

They also comment that Durin IV and III come out at the same time and are father and son... so another change to tradition, where the Durin was not a family saga and there could not be two at the same time, if I'm not mistaken.

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For anyone who has not already written off ROP, that article goes into exactly what stories the show will cover of the five seasons. Basically it will go through a few of the big Second Age stories: the forging of the Rings, Sauron's rise to power, the rise and fall of Numenor, and finishing with the Last Alliance of Elves and Men.

Lots of other info that may make fans relieved, or even more worried, depending on how you interpret it.
N2darkness wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:00 am Than it really makes you wonder why they hired John Howe as a conceptual artist and Howard Shore for the soundtrack then? They should have just stated from the very beginning that this was going to be an original take on Tolkien's previous work. Would have saved a bunch of people being upset or disappointing thinking they were going to be getting one thing and then seeing something completely different.
Not sure, but I think things must have changed over the past few years. My contacts at the time were telling me back then that it was likely going to be the same universe and look as the films, including reusing some props, possibly sets. I guess WB and Amazon could not come to an agreement over that. The licensing is not going through WB either.
KRDS

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N2darkness wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:00 am
Nasnandos wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:14 am From the latest Vanity Fair article.

"It’s worth remembering, if only for legal reasons, that this is not the exact same world. The production design, though similar, is not trying to match the Jackson films. For example, King Elendil’s legendary broken sword, Narsil, which debuted on one of Prime Video’s promotional posters, does not look identical to the one eventually reforged and used by Viggo Mortenson’s Aragorn in The Return of the King."

Another disappointment, but I guess that could be a good thing in one respect. If the show is bad and tanks, it won't put a stain on some of the designs I love from PJ's LOTR.
Than it really makes you wonder why they hired John Howe as a conceptual artist and Howard Shore for the soundtrack then? They should have just stated from the very beginning that this was going to be an original take on Tolkien's previous work. Would have saved a bunch of people being upset or disappointing thinking they were going to be getting one thing and then seeing something completely different.
Yes, and why did they bother to look for actors with similar faces, like for Gil-Galad, if later the story and the designs of everything else are completely different... I don't understand.

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XerachCruz wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:08 am Yes, and why did they bother to look for actors with similar faces, like for Gil-Galad, if later the story and the designs of everything else are completely different... I don't understand.
I thought it was clear in the VF article. For legal reasons it can be exactly the same, so they are making it different but familiar. They say it won't clash with the films, but it won't be exactly the same look either. Just similar.

We'll see. I suspect it was going to be the same when they started, then they had to change gears.
KRDS

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I will still watch the show when it comes out, but I dont see the need, personally, to continue on any discussions/debates over the next, what 7 months. I've really never been one to watch a trailer and go frame by frame and look for all the details, and as a new rule, I try to avoid trailers and see a movie or show with fresh eyes. I took it to an extreme for spiderman now way home. I didnt watch any trailer, to the point that if one came on TV I'd change the channel or mute the TV and look away :D I've already unfollowed pretty much every LOTR related FB/social media page. I was never a big reddit user, to me Reddit always seemed like the dumpster fire's dumpster fire. The show will be what is will be, nothing is going to change that. Its either going to suck, be mediocre, or be awesome and posters and trailers dont mean anything. At this point I am completely indifferent. I have the "luxury" of not having grown up with Tolkien, I dont have a life long connection with the work and can easily disassociate myself from the books and adaptations, I guess. Not trying to take away anyone's emotional connections to the books and seeing this adaption seemingly fall apart before it gets started.

Kind of reminds me of a friend of mine when it comes to the Ninja Turtles, like we are each looking down the barrel of our 40th bday and he is always complaining that new ninja turtles aren't as good as the 1988 series, and I am like, "why worry about it, you can watch the 88 series all the time and ignore the rest, besides are you aren't 8 anymore and you arent the 2022 ninja turtle demographic."
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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BladeCollector wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:19 am I will still watch the show when it comes out, but I dont see the need, personally, to continue on any discussions/debates over the next, what 7 months. I've really never been one to watch a trailer and go frame by frame and look for all the details, and as a new rule, I try to avoid trailers and see a movie or show with fresh eyes. I took it to an extreme for spiderman now way home. I didnt watch any trailer, to the point that if one came on TV I'd change the channel or mute the TV and look away :D I've already unfollowed pretty much every LOTR related FB/social media page. I was never a big reddit user, to me Reddit always seemed like the dumpster fire's dumpster fire. The show will be what is will be, nothing is going to change that. Its either going to suck, be mediocre, or be awesome and posters and trailers dont mean anything. At this point I am completely indifferent. I have the "luxury" of not having grown up with Tolkien, I dont have a life long connection with the work and can easily disassociate myself from the books and adaptations, I guess. Not trying to take away anyone's emotional connections to the books and seeing this adaption seemingly fall apart before it gets started.

Kind of reminds me of a friend of mine when it comes to the Ninja Turtles, like we are each looking down the barrel of our 40th bday and he is always complaining that new ninja turtles aren't as good as the 1988 series, and I am like, "why worry about it, you can watch the 88 series all the time and ignore the rest, besides are you aren't 8 anymore and you arent the 2022 ninja turtle demographic."
I don't think we'll be like this for 7 months... :D just a few days each time they announce news I guess. :P

I did grow up with Tolkien's work and went to see the LOTR movies in the cinema, knowing exactly what would happen on in the story, and I also followed all the news and leaks back in the day (I don't usually do that with other movies, but with Tolkien is unavoidable for my.) and they did not disappoint me at all, I loved them and I went several times to the cinema to see them dragging all the family and friends that I could. :)

I am hopeful that this will happen with this series as well, but the more information, the lower my expectations... but I think that is not a bad thing, because with low expectations and knowing a little what I am going to find, it is more likely that I like the series. On the other hand, if I see it without knowing anything about the series, only with my stratospheric expectations to know in detail the stories of those magnificent books and think that I will find the same thing, it could only lead to a huge disappointment and I would hate the show.

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Nasnandos wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:07 am For anyone who has not already written off ROP, that article goes into exactly what stories the show will cover of the five seasons. Basically it will go through a few of the big Second Age stories: the forging of the Rings, Sauron's rise to power, the rise and fall of Numenor, and finishing with the Last Alliance of Elves and Men.

Lots of other info that may make fans relieved, or even more worried, depending on how you interpret it.
For me, the article makes me more concerned because they also say that they don't own the rights to anything in The Silmarillion or The Unfinished Tales, just LOTR, Hobbit and the LOTR appendices.

I don't remember how much information about the second and first age is in the appendices, I've only read them once a long time ago and the information is all mixed up in my mind with the rest of the books... but I have the impression/memory that it was few information. I suspect that they will invent a lot, and that it will have little to do with what they tell about those periods in Silmarillion and other works that they do not have the rights to.
Nasnandos wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:07 am Not sure, but I think things must have changed over the past few years. My contacts at the time were telling me back then that it was likely going to be the same universe and look as the films, including reusing some props, possibly sets. I guess WB and Amazon could not come to an agreement over that. The licensing is not going through WB either.
I wish it had been like this in the end. It is a pity that they did not create a uniform universe as Marvel/Disney has done with all its movies and series.
Nasnandos wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:15 am I thought it was clear in the VF article. For legal reasons it can be exactly the same, so they are making it different but familiar. They say it won't clash with the films, but it won't be exactly the same look either. Just similar.

We'll see. I suspect it was going to be the same when they started, then they had to change gears.
Yes, surely you are right, they may have had the plans to unite everything and in the end they could not, and some vestigial things remain connected from the initial plan.

I don't know, I think that half similarity/connection can be confusing and produce the opposite effect. We'll see how it feels when they release it.

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XerachCruz wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:03 am
Nasnandos wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:14 am From the latest Vanity Fair article.

"It’s worth remembering, if only for legal reasons, that this is not the exact same world. The production design, though similar, is not trying to match the Jackson films. For example, King Elendil’s legendary broken sword, Narsil, which debuted on one of Prime Video’s promotional posters, does not look identical to the one eventually reforged and used by Viggo Mortenson’s Aragorn in The Return of the King."

Another disappointment, but I guess that could be a good thing in one respect. If the show is bad and tanks, it won't put a stain on some of the designs I love from PJ's LOTR.
Yes, I just read it too. I wished that it wasn't Narsil, that it was Anglachel retrieved from the seas or some other invented sword... but it seems not, which in the end is Narsil.

I don't like that kind of design at all for a Numeronian sword... and even less so for Narsil.
Sorry. I just realized that I misunderstood the quote from the Vanity article, they don't mean that Narsil is the sword that is broken in the poster, but that it is the other one with the suns.

This one doesn't seem that out of place to me as a Numeronian sword, but I think I still prefer the Narsil from the movies. Let's see if the full sword looks better.

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XerachCruz wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 12:43 pm For me, the article makes me more concerned because they also say that they don't own the rights to anything in The Silmarillion or The Unfinished Tales, just LOTR, Hobbit and the LOTR appendices.
Yeah, they implied earlier that they did get those rights, but those were never on the table. Basically they paid 200 million for the same LOTR appendix television rights that Warner Bros also had for movies. WB could have done a series of Second Age movies like what what Amazon is doing, and kept continuity with the films if they wanted to. They did not, and those rights reverted back to the Saul Zaentz Co last year. Zaentz Co is now auctioning those rights, which I am sure Amazon will pay a few billion for.

The LOTR appendices have a basic summary of the major Second Age events. Some things are detailed and some just vague. Nothing as in depth as the Silmarillion. The tv show will do its own version of those events, similar to how PJ worked his own version of the Unfinished Tales Gandalf/Sauron back story, told in the The Quest of Erebor, into his Hobbit films.
KRDS

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Found these online. I would definitely feel more hyped if they were the actual official releases :roll:

Anyway, I think we're all over it now; let's hope for at least a good script/story!


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Not sure how you attached those, but all I see are the file names, not images.

As for a good story? No hope of that for me. Now that it's revealed this show is only loosely borrowing the names of Tolkien characters to tell a completely fictional tale that Tolkien never wrote but apparently should have, while compressing 3000 years of history into one moment in time? Sorry, I don't know whether it makes me want to laugh or cry.

Edit: Ok, I can see them now. Not much of an improvement, TBH.
This Space for Rent

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Valkrist wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 7:25 am Not sure how you attached those, but all I see are the file names, not images.

As for a good story? No hope of that for me. Now that it's revealed this show is only loosely borrowing the names of Tolkien characters to tell a completely fictional tale that Tolkien never wrote but apparently should have, while compressing 3000 years of history into one moment in time? Sorry, I don't know whether it makes me want to laugh or cry.

Edit: Ok, I can see them now. Not much of an improvement, TBH.

Yeah, had an initial issue with the images' upload (also, don't know how to post them smaller :shock: )
I actually tend to agree with you Val... After all, you're really only stating the obvious. However, something inside just tells me to wait and see. I keep my expectations fairly low on this, but would love to be pleasantly surprised!

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Valkrist wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 7:25 am Not sure how you attached those, but all I see are the file names, not images.

As for a good story? No hope of that for me. Now that it's revealed this show is only loosely borrowing the names of Tolkien characters to tell a completely fictional tale that Tolkien never wrote but apparently should have, while compressing 3000 years of history into one moment in time? Sorry, I don't know whether it makes me want to laugh or cry.

Edit: Ok, I can see them now. Not much of an improvement, TBH.
Val, allow me to make a teensy edit to your post:
...this show is only loosely borrowing the names of Tolkien characters to tell a completely fictional tale with 21st century views that Tolkien never wrote but apparently should have, while compressing 3000 years of history into one moment in time.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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Deimos wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:49 am
Val, allow me to make a teensy edit to your post:
...this show is only loosely borrowing the names of Tolkien characters to tell a completely fictional tale with 21st century views that Tolkien never wrote but apparently should have, while compressing 3000 years of history into one moment in time.
Yes, that goes without saying. Obviously Tolkien's story is also a work of fiction, but the sheer arrogance and hubris that I'm reading in articles and interviews with the writers as they scramble to do damage control after that trailer and pictures pushes this ridiculous attempt at fan-fic far beyond into the realm of being downright insulting. Apparently the so-called Tolkien 'scholar' that was hired to replace Tom Shippey is an unapologetic social activist firebrand who stated Tolkien's works are problematic and adored by neo-fascists, and that so-called 'fans' that dare criticize any modernizing of this outdated tale are nothing but disgusting internet trolls.

Lovely.

In other wonderful news in the world of Tolkien, with Saul Zaentz Co. putting the filmic, television, and gaming rights of LOTR and the Hobbit up for sale, the rumour mill is already churning that Amazon is the leading contender to snap them up, already with an eye to remaking the Lord of the Rings movies. One guess as to how they will 'update' them if this proves to be true. Apparently the rights have expired with Warners Bros, prompting SZ to sell, but I also read the reason we suddenly have news of the War of the Rohirrim show resurgent is because WB is lawyering up to prove they are producing content that is Tolkien-related and have not breached contract.

Should be an interesting orc-style foodfight in the making here before the dust settles.
This Space for Rent

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Levidas wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 7:18 am Found these online. I would definitely feel more hyped if they were the actual official releases :roll:

Anyway, I think we're all over it now; let's hope for at least a good script/story!
They would definitely look better like in those photos. :lol:

I also already have ultra-low expectations.
Deimos wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:49 am
Valkrist wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 7:25 am Not sure how you attached those, but all I see are the file names, not images.

As for a good story? No hope of that for me. Now that it's revealed this show is only loosely borrowing the names of Tolkien characters to tell a completely fictional tale that Tolkien never wrote but apparently should have, while compressing 3000 years of history into one moment in time? Sorry, I don't know whether it makes me want to laugh or cry.

Edit: Ok, I can see them now. Not much of an improvement, TBH.
Val, allow me to make a teensy edit to your post:
...this show is only loosely borrowing the names of Tolkien characters to tell a completely fictional tale with 21st century views that Tolkien never wrote but apparently should have, while compressing 3000 years of history into one moment in time.
To prepare myself psychologically, I put myself in the worst:

In addition to how you describe the serie in those lines, I suppose that I will see something that is too teen. Something with an impulsive Galadriel protagonist and with emotional outbursts worthy of a teenager (something like the protagonist of Cursed) and one antagonist, who realy is not so bad but rather misunderstood and emotionally weak (somewhat as well as Kilo Ren), it may be Galadriel's traitorous brother who was described in the posters leak.

I imagine it will all be like a role-playing game in Middle Earth, played by young people who only know the history of the ancient days from what they have seen in some youtube video and read in some wiki. Bearing that in my mind, whatever the series is, I think it can only get better... I hope.
Valkrist wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:16 am
Yes, that goes without saying. Obviously Tolkien's story is also a work of fiction, but the sheer arrogance and hubris that I'm reading in articles and interviews with the writers as they scramble to do damage control after that trailer and pictures pushes this ridiculous attempt at fan-fic far beyond into the realm of being downright insulting. Apparently the so-called Tolkien 'scholar' that was hired to replace Tom Shippey is an unapologetic social activist firebrand who stated Tolkien's works are problematic and adored by neo-fascists, and that so-called 'fans' that dare criticize any modernizing of this outdated tale are nothing but disgusting internet trolls.

Lovely.
I also read that information and I hope it's not real... and if it is, I don't understand how they can hire someone like that as a consultant, someone who really hates the Tolkien works and wants to change it completely. The only thing he will achieve is to sabotage the show from within.

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Valkrist wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:16 am Apparently the so-called Tolkien 'scholar' that was hired to replace Tom Shippey is an unapologetic social activist firebrand who stated Tolkien's works are problematic and adored by neo-fascists, and that so-called 'fans' that dare criticize any modernizing of this outdated tale are nothing but disgusting internet trolls.

(...)

but I also read the reason we suddenly have news of the War of the Rohirrim show resurgent is because WB is lawyering up to prove they are producing content that is Tolkien-related and have not breached contract.

Should be an interesting orc-style foodfight in the making here before the dust settles.

That whole story of the Tolkien 'scholar' replacement made me sick. Indeed, is yet another reason to have (very) low expectations on this show :cry:

The War of the Rohirrim, on the other hand, seems to me to become a much more interesting movie - even if it is animated. I was pleasantly surprised to know that Philippa Boyens is executive producing the film, Phoebe Gittins (Boyens’ daughter) is penning the screenplay, and that the creative team includes Richard Taylor, Alan Lee and John Howe!


https://variety.com/2022/film/news/lord ... 235181646/

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You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Levidas wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:24 pm
Valkrist wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:16 am Apparently the so-called Tolkien 'scholar' that was hired to replace Tom Shippey is an unapologetic social activist firebrand who stated Tolkien's works are problematic and adored by neo-fascists, and that so-called 'fans' that dare criticize any modernizing of this outdated tale are nothing but disgusting internet trolls.

(...)

but I also read the reason we suddenly have news of the War of the Rohirrim show resurgent is because WB is lawyering up to prove they are producing content that is Tolkien-related and have not breached contract.

Should be an interesting orc-style foodfight in the making here before the dust settles.

That whole story of the Tolkien 'scholar' replacement made me sick. Indeed, is yet another reason to have (very) low expectations on this show :cry:

The War of the Rohirrim, on the other hand, seems to me to become a much more interesting movie - even if it is animated. I was pleasantly surprised to know that Philippa Boyens is executive producing the film, Phoebe Gittins (Boyens’ daughter) is penning the screenplay, and that the creative team includes Richard Taylor, Alan Lee and John Howe!


https://variety.com/2022/film/news/lord ... 235181646/


Webp.net-resizeimage.jpg
Reallly, I just can't believe they hired someone with that kind of speech as an advisor.

I mean. I'm not saying that I don't think they haven't hired that person, but I can't believe that person thinks that way and they gave him that job.

Have you read direct comments from her in person saying those things about Tolkien's work or is it just a rumor? ...it seems surreal to me.

I'm referring to his earlier comments about his way of thinking about Tolkien's work, not the tantrum and attack to the fans for the criticism the show had afterwards. I suppose that's just due to lack of maturity and enormous arrogance, the same arrogance that the showrunners have shown in their comments too. I believe that humility and self-criticism is not something that is abundant in today's society.

I also have more desire to see the animated series than the Amazon series, really. I had more hopes for the Amazon one because of the story it was supposed to adapt and because I'm not a big fan of animation, but my hopes have turned around. I hope that they are not forced to cancel it due to the issue of the sale of rights that Valkrist commented on.

About the teenage Galadriel and his brother I wrote yesterday, was just a joke. Rereading me, perhaps my irony will not be captured. I was just kidding about how characters develop in shows and movies today. I don't think they're really going to do that... but it's true that I keep my expectations really low.

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Just watched it. Yep...good video.
He makes good arguments that refute the attacks on us true lovers of Tolkien and ME.
Thanks for posting the link.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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Levidas wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 11:52 am Just watched this long video, imo yet another one clearly stating the general feeling of the fans about all this. I think it's well worth the watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLj2qamFUuI
Nice video, great explanation.

I myself feel that way too and I this days have suffered the consequences of that division that they are causing.

This weekend I was expelled from a facebook group about the series, because they put a new rule in which you couldn't criticize anything about the characters. I have simply commented that it seemed excessive to me, that if the criticism is constructive it is good and that it was arbitrary censorship. And I have notified the administrators of the group to try to help another Tolkien fan who also complained about it before me, because although he had been very polite and correct, they were treating him really rudely, shutting him up with insults. And the same administrators that I have asked for help to avoid this abuse and I have been expelled without explanation.

They want to divide us, degrade us and kicking us out of our own fandom, just to leave "the consumers", to those who don't care about Tolkien's work.

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