Re: LOW prices... trustworthy?

5
While I can't vouch for the pictures being of the actual sword you'd be sent, there's a very quick and easy way to determine if low prices are worth it.

Anyone who is selling actual United Cutlery swords will most likely cram that information into you, the buyer, as much as possible. At the -very- least, they'll list the Model number. This seller is no exception. None of these swords are legitimate United Cutlery products, and, from what I can tell, they never say they are. They do however give you model numbers from -other- companies. United Cutlery is always UC#### and such. These are listed as SC's, MS's, etc. Look for the model numbers and you'll save yourself an e-mail, heh.

However, if you feel willing to part with some cash, some of the things that are -not- made by United Cutlery could be worth your time for the fun of it. I purchased a sword that is most likely the same as Eomer's listed on there, and it was worth it. $20 where I bought it, but still.

So yes, not really United Cutlery, but maybe worth it for the fun of it, if you're willing to essentially lose money.

Re: LOW prices... trustworthy?

6
Ditto on what GW just said.

On a good note, it's nice to see attempts at replicas that UC never made. I like that someone actually tried to make the hard sheath for Hadhafang. I wonder if it would fit the UC version? What they call "Sam's dagger" is also an interesting try. (Of course, we know it has nothing to do with Sam. ;) )

These fakes sure have come a long way. Thanks for sharing that site, John.

Hey what ever happened to the "Beware of Fakes" thread? I did manage to find "Fake UC LOTR's Swords and helms (i think)".

Re: LOW prices... trustworthy?

8
...Well besides being a bit rude to you, the company is correct, Mr. Locke.

Over the past year or so, United filed for bankruptcy but was fairly quickly bought by a new company. So while there are currently no officially licensed LOTR swords being made by UC, there is some chance of them picking the line back up.

Speaking from e xp erience, "very good replicas" is quite a stretch. I'd say adequate. If you -really- want to buy any other swords, and you can't find UC products, go for the Noble Collection. They aren't as good as UC, but certainly better than the random pieces a site like that has.

All of this would be resolved if sites like that weren't so misleading and blatently stated that they were NOT licensed pieces. I've seen this done and felt far more inclined to purchase from a site that was honest.

Re: LOW prices... trustworthy?

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Ted Sweeny wrote:Hi, to be honest, I do not see what exactly is so misleading about this site. There is no purpose to putting a warning that says they are not licensed replicas, as there is no hint to UC's actual products, other than being LOTR weapons. It is not their fault if a buyer has no clue what they are doing. This is truly one of the least misleading sites I have seen, personally.
Unfortunately, not everyone has the e xp erience and the knowledge of the differences between a United Cutlery product and an unlicensed one. Of course it is buyer beware and they should probably do the research before buying, but as most of us probably know, most people do not.

Of course, sites that sell unlicensed products would never let their buyers know that what they are selling is not the official product. They wouldn't make any money. Most of the die hard fans bought their UC stuff when they were first released and when they were first introduced, there was only the UC products. It usually takes a few months before the shoddy knock-offs start circulating.

I'm glad that you e-mailed ahead of time John... Even if I knew I was buying a knock-off, I never would buy anything from a rude company. :viking:
Valar morghulis

Re: LOW prices... trustworthy?

12
I've dealt with at least one site that was extremely rude to me. When you're dealing with collectors of items, especially e xp ensive items, trust is an issue (if you ask me). Responding to e-mails in a decent manner can sometimes be a deciding factor, and certainly was for me. God forbid you should ask about the legitimacy of a site's product, when in fact they are -not- legitimate.

As far as Ted Sweeny's comments, I definetly agree. They make sure not to sound like United Cutlery, and they certainly do not lie at any point. However, implying that they are Lord of the Rings swords, and using specific character names, locations, events, sword names, and so on is deliberately misleading, if you ask me. Unless I'm wrong, this is just barely on the side of even being legal, as all of these are in fact copyrighted names. (If anyone here knows for a -fact- the legality of this sort of thing speak up, please.)

As I said, the place that I bought my "Guthwine" sword from was so much more reliable because they blatently said they were unlicensed, and never used specific names. In fact it was named the "Horse Lord" sword. I've seen this used on many occasions. That same site sold Blade replicas that were named as the "Vampire Slayer Sword". I'm a repeat customer there because of their honesty.

As for the random differences (different steel, lengths, etc.) while they are different, I've got a fair number of pieces and I couldn't tell you off the top of my head how long my Anduril is (I used to, but it's been several years since I bought it...) and while you or myself or many other collectors here know the full catalog of LOTR products, folks such as Mr. Locke here may not know. People don't always follow product news as much as most of us here do. Same goes for prices. I bought a fair amount of my pieces for a lower price than the average site has.

I simply don't see what the harm would be in specifically stating that they are non-licensed replicas. If they're not trying to deceive people, then what harm is it? For now it's simply a mild challenge for collectors to determine that they're not legitimate. But I'd be willing to bet at least a few buyers were deceived into buying a product they thought was licensed.

Re: LOW prices... trustworthy?

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GuardianWolf wrote:However, implying that they are Lord of the Rings swords, and using specific character names, locations, events, sword names, and so on is deliberately misleading, if you ask me. Unless I'm wrong, this is just barely on the side of even being legal, as all of these are in fact copyrighted names. (If anyone here knows for a -fact- the legality of this sort of thing speak up, please.)

You can rest assured there are high legal issues at stake here. I cite the now infamous incident of Gandalf the Clown, a street performer from New York who had been using the name for years in blissful ignorance of any legal wrongdoing. Somehow the Tolkien Estate got wind of this guy and brought a lawsuit against the man, demanding that he drop the name, which is copyrighted and may not be used without e xp ress permission of the Tolkien Estate or Tolkien Enterprises, depending on the license that is paid for. Gandalf the Clown fought the suit, was taken to court, and without making you guess the obvious outcome, he lost.

Conclusion? Since these are not officially licensed replicas, the mere use of object, character, and place names on that website in describing any kind of product from which a profit can be made is a direct violation of said copyrights. To put it simply, if you e xp ect to sell something using those names, you have to pay for the right to use them as those names are owned by someone else.

Re: LOW prices... trustworthy?

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It's not that contradictory or hazy. Using the names on a daily basis is legal, via freedom of speech. I can say any name I want as often as I want. The difference is that they're using it in a business to make a profit.

I honestly don't believe that specifically stating that a piece is not official would hurt the business of a company. Certainly not an -honest- business, anyways. Due to forum rules, I cannot specifically state the site that I continually cite as doing this, but I purchased the unofficial sword first from them, and due to their honesty about it I felt comfortable buying official products from them.

The main problem with this is that, as Ted Sweeny said, the unknowing buyers will purchase these swords (which are heavily -over priced- for their quality) and this only serves to hurt entire collecting community. You can't deny that if less products were claimed to be official, people would be driven to buy the actual products, and perhaps United Cutlery would not have e xp erienced such financial problems. Granted, I'm sure UC's financial problems were entirely because of Lord of the Rings knock-offs, I'm sure they didn't help.

If, for whatever reason, you -do- want the site that I keep referencing, private message me. I'm not so much saying you should buy from them, as I'm saying that it can be done tastefully without harm to the business.

Re: LOW prices... trustworthy?

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Ted Sweeny wrote:Which is contradictory and a little hazy itself, as many people use these names on a daily basis, even just talking about the films or books on the internet. A smarter method would be the usual (and surprisingly absent) replacement names such as "Sword of the King", or "Ranger Sword". Their risk.

*TS

Ted, please read what I said. It is only a breach of copyright when said names are used to make a profit from their use, just like GuardianWolf reiterated. The intellectual property is privately owned, plain and simple. We can freely discuss Lord of the Rings and all the names and things therein on this site, written, verbally, or wherever else since we are not making money off of them. However, the moment you decide to sell something with those names on them without acquiring a license first, then you are breaking the law.

Re: LOW prices... trustworthy?

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A law is only as effective as its ability to be enforced, which in turn is directly related to the risk level of being caught. Having said that, I have to agree with you on how silly these things are sometimes because it is so hard to police and catch every single instance of a breach. However, when you do so as blatantly as this website is by plastering your unlicensed goods for sale all over the internet, then the risk becomes rather high.

Where I do disagree is the allegation that there are numerous examples of money being made off these names in a manner which is unlawful. I've been an avid fan of Tolkien's work for over twenty years and own an extensive collection of related products, and aside from these fake swords that have cropped up since the movies were made, I've not seen a single instance of profit being made by unlawful use of this license. This doesn't mean it's not out there or it isn't possible, only that I'm almost certain I would have seen something by now, and I haven't. If you have an example, I would be interested in hearing about it, and no, I am not a lawyer for the Tolkien group. ;)

Re: LOW prices... trustworthy?

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I've done some research on these new higher quality knockoffs. I know they are being made in china instead of pakistan. These started showing up right around the time UC was having problems. So I'm left to wonder if the chinese forge making these didnt somehow get their hands on the molds from UC's forge in taiwan. Looking at Anduril's handle, Legolas's knife blades, and others they are exact in every detail to UCs. Also the silk screen on the handles is the same.

Re: LOW prices... trustworthy?

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I doubt that it's that they got anything from the United Cutlery productions. They most likely just took an actual UC sword and modeled there's to be virtually identical, with enough minor differences to make it clear to the knowledgable that they're not UC swords. I.e. Anduril's length, Glamdring's jewel, etc. Taking the exact mold that UC used and using those to produce swords may actually end up being more e xp ensive for the manufacturers.

And it can't be said for sure that -all- of the pictures there are of the actual sword you'd be receiving.
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