There are a couple of bits that are sure to be included such as the fight between gandalf and the witchking but does anyone else have any ideas??

Ive never read the books, but i found a website that someone posted there ideas on the ee scense for rotk

Taken from another sit....

Here are some guesses in what the ROTK:EE DVD might have:

The Crossroad
Saruman's disempowerment
Edoras: Merry's vow of fidelity
Edoras: Dialogue between Eowyn and Eomer concerning Merry
Edoras: A "drinking game" during the celebration
Add-on in Edoras: Aragorn & Eowyn Edoras: Extended discussion Edoras: Changed Farewell Edoras: Extended Farewell Extended Dialogue between Eowyn and Aragorn
Add-ons in Rivendell
Camp Extended Dialogue between Elrond and Aragorn
Camp: Altered Farewell
Extended Paths of the dead
The Corsair Ships
Minas Tirith: Original scene replaced
More small talk between Gandalf and Pippin
Minas Tirith: Denethor’s madness & Palantir
Minas Tirith: Longer dialogue between Faramir and Denethor
Orc Tower: Add-on
Siege of Minas Tirith: Extended battle scenes
Siege of Minas Tirith: Gandalf vs. Witchking
Battle on the Pelennor Fields: extended battle scenes Easterlings
Pelennor-Fields: Locating Eowyn Pelennor-Fields: Locating Merry Pelennor-Fields: Honour coronation for the dead King Theoden
Minas Tirith: After the battle
Minas Tirith: Aragorn as king
Minas Tirith: Aragorn looks into the Palantir to the Black Gate
black Gate: Sauron's Mouth
At the Black Gate: Pippin holds Merry
At the Black Gate: Changed battle
Mordor: Add-ons
Minas Tirith: Marriages and the new tree
End: Epilogue Back in the Shire

I am just looking forward to the two major confrontations: Gandalf vs. The Witchking, and Aragorn vs. The Lieutenant.
I'm sure you have all noticed, when they are fighting at the black gate, Gandalf doesn't have his staff; did he just leave it behind, or does this suggest that the Witchking did in fact smash it with his flail like several books say he does? I know he has it at the end when he sails on the last ship, but he did somehow get another grey staff when he escaped from Orthanc in FOTR...anybody have any thoughts on this?

I fear Gandalf's staff's absence is due to its being broken by the WK, due to PJ's incurable need to tinker with the plot. If it's in fact broken by physical means, ie, that wicked mace, I find that marginally less objectionable than by magical means. In any case, someone who saw the EE presentation at comic con posted this report to theonering.net (note that he says that it's Eowyn that Eomer is bawling over, as seen in the trailer [that's a reference to an old debate on the forum]). In any case, here's the spy report:

I got back from the san diego comic-con earlier tonight and man, let me tell you, the Rotk ee presentation was fantastic.


David Wenham and Billy Boyd were there and they were hilarious.

The crowd went completely NUTS for all of the new clips. But, because the crowd was so loud I had trouble catching all of the dialogue.

The dialogue's not word for word and this is not the order in which the clips were shown. I'll just try to get down everything I can remember.

MAJOR EE SPOILERS BELOW









- Shots of Saruman on top of Orthanc, saying things like "something festers in the heart of middle-earth" , "you are all going to die", " I want no pity or mercy!", saruman shooting flames from his staff (I know this sounds kinda hokey but I thought it looked pretty good)

- Frodo/Sam/Gollum approaching the crossroads. we see sam looking at something and then there is a closeup (pics of which have already appeared online) of the statue's head and it's crown

- frodo/sam in orc costumes marching with orcs, big orc yelling "move on!"

- Merry saying "I know there isn't much hope, I know I can't do much. I'm just a hobbit. But I want to help"

- Mouth of sauron rides out, there is a closeup on his mouth (which looked pretty gross) as he says " I have a token I was bidden to show thee" and then he reveals frodo's mithril vest and throws it down to the ground. then there is a closeup of pippin who says "frodo..."

- Eowyn in bed at edoras, Aragorn is walking away from her but before he can get too far she reaches out and takes his hand.

- eomer grieving for eowyn (seen in theatrical trailer)

- sam in mordor looking at the dark, red lit sky telling mr. frodo that he sees a light.

- aragorn picks up flaming palantir and says something, the only word I caught was "Elendil"

- gandalf riding up to witch king making threats, something about sending it into the abyss, witch king responds with his own threat while his sword becomes enflamed.

- misc. new shots of the siege of gondor, orcs using small battering ram, fell beast swooping in and picking up soldiers

- eowyn fighting gothmog (the one eyed orc captain)

- faramir telling pippin about his childhood, boromir, and his father. pippin says that faramir has " a different kind of strength" and that his father will see it eventually.

- Eowyn and Faramir hold hands and nuzzle at the houses of healing (women in the audience went especially nuts for this scene.)

- aragorn/legolas/gimli run away from an avalanche of skulls in the paths of the dead

I think this covers most of the new footage shown. oh, and it was confirmed multiple times that the EE comes out in December. so far away

I was looking on the Sideshow Weta site and noticed that they have just released images of the new busts that they are releasing.

One is of the Mouth of Sauron and He doesnt look particularly pleasing to the Eye!

Thanks guys, I'm pleased to see that they are juicing up the battle scenes a bit as I felt the siege of the Minas Tirith was lacking in comparison to helms deep.

On Gandalf the Gray's staff, the one he took to Orthanc and the one he had after wards were 2 different staffs.

Is there any pics on the mouth of sauron? Ive seen his helm. I have a whole bunch of pics on some rotk extra scenes, but i dont know what the mouth of sauron looks like

Grima Wormtongue wrote:Is there any pics on the mouth of sauron? Ive seen his helm. I have a whole bunch of pics on some rotk extra scenes, but i dont know what the mouth of sauron looks like

I haven't seen any actual stills of him, but the "Art of ROTK" book has some conceptual drawings, which, based on the bust that Sideshow is selling, are pretty close to his appearance. Very gruesome!

There is one notable absence to the extended scenes that no one has pointed out yet, to my knowledge. It is one of my favourite scenes in the books, and it even appears from the theatrical release that PJ intended to film it, but had to cut it out for time.

The scene I speak of is Sam's confrontation with the three-headed stone Watchers at the gate of Cirith Ungol. I think this is a great moment, chilling and creepy, and a nice show of Sam's inner strength. In the current version of the movie, the statues can be seen just as Sam walks past them and into the inner courtyard of Cirith Ungol. The observant eye will notice that scene begins with an almost abrupt cut, usually indicative that there is preceding footage missing. I had fervently hope d that this scene had been shot and would be reinserted, but am losing hope now after reading that list.

Valkrist wrote:There is one notable absence to the extended scenes that no one has pointed out yet, to my knowledge. It is one of my favourite scenes in the books, and it even appears from the theatrical release that PJ intended to film it, but had to cut it out for time.

The scene I speak of is Sam's confrontation with the three-headed stone Watchers at the gate of Cirith Ungol. I think this is a great moment, chilling and creepy, and a nice show of Sam's inner strength. In the current version of the movie, the statues can be seen just as Sam walks past them and into the inner courtyard of Cirith Ungol. The observant eye will notice that scene begins with an almost abrupt cut, usually indicative that there is preceding footage missing. I had fervently hope d that this scene had been shot and would be reinserted, but am losing hope now after reading that list.

Take heart. The fan who wrote that list wrote it from memory, and I don't think the people at the con were necessarily shown EVERY new scene in the EE. Plus, I can't imagine that they'd go to the trouble of sculpting the incredible Watchers, then do nothing with them. On the other hand, maybe they felt they only had time for one extra statue scene in the movie, and they opted for the broken king at the Crossroads (a personal fave of mine, although I think the Watchers would be way cool, too).

The guys from thedigitalbits.com posted the following tidbits. Presume the bit about Merry pledging his service at Gondor to actually mean Edoras.
******
The set will feature more than 50 additional minutes of footage, including some 300 additional effect shots. Among the new scenes were: the final confrontation between Gandalf and Saruman at Isengard, the Mouth of Sauron at the Black Gate, Aragorn revealing the sword Anduril to Sauron's eye in the Seeing-stone, the confrontation between the Witch King and Gandalf at Minas Tirith, more battle footage on the Pelennor fields, Frodo and Sam marching with Sauron's forces disguised as Orcs, Faramir telling Denethor that he would never use the power of the Ring, Aragorn looking down upon a fleet of Corsair ships from a ridgetop, Faramir and Éowyn at the House of Healing, Merry pledging allegiance to King Theoden at Gondor, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli narrowly escaping an avalanche of skulls deep inside the Dwimorberg and MUCH more. The set will feature more than 20 hours of supplemental content.

On a not so bright note, here's a recent quote from PJ over at MovieWeb:


I'm sure most of you have heard me blabbing off in the past few weeks but we've just finished the extended cut of the DVD. I finished the edit before I came over here - these poor bastards at Weta have got another 350 effects shots to do! They're well on the way. Elijah's seen the extended cut. New Line have announced some box set that's supposed to be coming out which I didn't know anything about. When I've done 'King Kong' I'd like to do a proper box set and we've got a whole bunch of material - not of the movie but we've got a whole lot of bloopers out there! When King Kong's out the way I'd like to do a really high definition version with the best possbile picture quality.




Now I'm sure this will excite a lot of you, but I can't help but be disappointed once again in these kinds of decisions. Do we really need another whole boxset release just to showcase a few bloopers? Also, what exactly is wrong with the picture quality in the current EE versions? What is he going to do, spread the movies over four discs each instead of two? Why can't they just release a supplement DVD for all this stuff instead of conning consumers into buying yet another release of these movies? Enough is enough.

PS. I also find it odd that PJ claims he knew nothing about the box set New Line is releasing. That sounds like a load of bollocks to me.

Warning: this link probably won't work for very long as the clip is bootlegged, so they may ask the site to stop hosting it. Run in there and download yourself a copy while you can.

http://dvd.monstersandcritics.com/archi ... ion=videos

Valkrist wrote:On a not so bright note, here's a recent quote from PJ over at MovieWeb:

I'm sure most of you have heard me blabbing off in the past few weeks but we've just finished the extended cut of the DVD. I finished the edit before I came over here - these poor bastards at Weta have got another 350 effects shots to do! They're well on the way. Elijah's seen the extended cut. New Line have announced some box set that's supposed to be coming out which I didn't know anything about. When I've done 'King Kong' I'd like to do a proper box set and we've got a whole bunch of material - not of the movie but we've got a whole lot of bloopers out there! When King Kong's out the way I'd like to do a really high definition version with the best possbile picture quality.

Now I'm sure this will excite a lot of you, but I can't help but be disappointed once again in these kinds of decisions. Do we really need another whole boxset release just to showcase a few bloopers? Also, what exactly is wrong with the picture quality in the current EE versions? What is he going to do, spread the movies over four discs each instead of two? Why can't they just release a supplement DVD for all this stuff instead of conning consumers into buying yet another release of these movies? Enough is enough.

PS. I also find it odd that PJ claims he knew nothing about the box set New Line is releasing. That sounds like a load of bollocks to me.

PJ would not rerelease the existing trilogy EEs in a box set just to get the fans to buy a blooper disc. What he's talking about is High Definition DVD, or HD-DVD for short. It's an upgraded DVD format that's currently the subject of yet another format war: Sony pushing "Blu-Ray," and everybody else is supporting HD-DVD. It is supposed to be to regular DVD what hi def TV is to regular TV (and if you've been to your electronics store and seen side-by side comparisons of analog and hi def TV, you know this is actually a big deal. By the time HD-DVD is really available, we'll all have big TVs, and really appreciate a better DVD format. Plus, he has often made references to doing a final master edit of the trilogy, editing all three movies into one really long one, possibly with a little extra footage that we still haven't seen. He's also pondered doing the editing as a strictly chronological sequencing of the events in the movie (a la what was done for Godfather Pts I and II on laserdisc a while back).

The current upcoming box set that he's referring to is something New Line is doing without his input. Remember, unfortunately, they do own the rights to this and can do things w/o his blessing. It's supposed to be just the existing 3 EEs, no changes, in a box. Probably about like how they took the 3 existing theatrical cuts and stuffed them into a box when ROTK: TE came out a few months ago. It was first noised at a convention a number of months ago, with a projected release date of Christmas this year (which of course would coincide with the ROTK EE).

Valkrist wrote:That sounds like a load of bollocks to me.

By the way, what is "bollocks," if you can e xp lain on a family-friendly forum? I have a general idea, as the word is quite frequently used as a swear word in the really great (if you haven't seen it, go rent it!) movie "The Commitments," which is about a bunch of working class kids forming an R&B band in Ireland.

I didn't realize the word was used in Canada also. Our swearing is so much more mundane down here south of the border.

Two noteworthy things I gleaned from the bootleg Comic Con video that I don't think have been mentioned yet...

1. The scene has been included where Sam sees a star thru a gap in the clouds over Mordor and realizes that there's beauty beyond the world that Sauron can never touch.

2. There's a scene, I think when Pippin sees Denethor's funeral procession, of a single bloom on the White Tree. Apparently the White Tree begins to return to life as Aragorn approaches Gondor. I had thought there was an outside chance that for the EE, PJ would return to the book, where Aragorn finds a young sapling of the White Tree up on Mindolluin, and transplants it. I guess not.

I know about the new DVD standards coming out as you and I have discussed them before... what I found out of place in PJ's comments is that he mentioned doing this once Kong is out of the way. I thought the new DVD tech was still a ways away, and since he is already working on Kong, that project will probably wrap up inside of next year... which makes me wonder about the timing of the whole thing. I would definitely buy a final edit of these movies, with possibly even more footage thrown in, but I won't plunk my money down for just a hi-def version of the current EEs. I realize there are justifiable differences between normal tv and hdtv, but I'm not altogether sold on the touted picture improvements between the current DVD standards and the new stuff coming. The human eye can only detect so much, and for someone as myself who is already watching these on a flat-screen ,digital Wega Sony tv, I don't think they can make the picture look much better.

As for the word 'bollocks,' I don't think I'm really allowed to e xp lain here what they are... and by the use of the plural 'they,' I think you will deduce for yourself what it means. I have seen "The Commitments" btw... great movie. Also, the word is not really commonly used in Canada, but my girlfriend is British, so there you go!

Lastly, on the bootleg clip... yeah, Saruman's Staff of Fireballs right out the Dungeons & Dragons books really made me wince, even if it looked cool... just very out of place. Oh PJ... when will you learn? :rolleyes:

The bit with Aragorn finding the sapling of the White Tree is something I wrote off a long time ago. I wasn't e xp ecting any miracles on that front with the extra scenes. However, the WK vs. Gandalf scene, from what I saw, was tremendous! Just wish it had happened at the Gates, like in the book.

Oh... and was it just me or was the Mouth of Sauron completely absent from those clips? The camera goes all jerky at one point... did I miss it?

Valkrist wrote:... what I found out of place in PJ's comments is that he mentioned doing this once Kong is out of the way. I thought the new DVD tech was still a ways away, and since he is already working on Kong, that project will probably wrap up inside of next year... which makes me wonder about the timing of the whole thing.

I'm not sure when Kong is coming out. Christmas 2005 sticks in mind. If that's the case, and there's both a theatrical and an EE edition of it, it could be late 2006 before PJ is "done with Kong." Technologically, HD-DVD could premiere very soon; it's just that the two warring camps are trying to build support for their side before launching the "invasion." I suspect it will definitely have been launched by the time Kong is done with.

Valkrist wrote:As for the word 'bollocks,' I don't think I'm really allowed to e xp lain here what they are... and by the use of the plural 'they,' I think you will deduce for yourself what it means.

That's pretty much what I thought.

Valkrist wrote:Also, the word is not really commonly used in Canada, but my girlfriend is British, so there you go!

I hope to be spending a few days in Canada this fall. After I see the LOTR exhibit in Boston, I plan to make my way up the coast as far as Halifax. I had toyed w/the idea of going all the way to Labrador and Newfoundland, but that's just so far from here. Anyway, maybe I will pick up some fun Canadianisms to bring home. I think I must have picked up my love of languages and usage about the same time I first read Tolkien. Hmmmm, perhaps not a coincidence....

Valkrist wrote:However, the WK vs. Gandalf scene, from what I saw, was tremendous! Just wish it had happened at the Gates, like in the book.

Amen to that. That, plus no breaking of Gandalf's staff.

Valkrist wrote:Oh... and was it just me or was the Mouth of Sauron completely absent from those clips? The camera goes all jerky at one point... did I miss it?

I did not see the Mouth. I am wondering if the bootleg clip did not cover the entire presentation. The presentation looked very much like those behind the scenes of the EE that they did on the TEs of FOTR and TTT, to whet everyone for the upcoming EE. And those were typically about 10 minutes long, if memory serves. So I'm thinking there may have been more that didn't make the clip. Some things on it were pretty amusing, in terms of audience reaction. Such as all the girls screaming whenever one of the hobbit cuties appeared, or the woman moaning "Oh my God!" at the end of the clip.

lol... yeah, all the screaming fangirls were more than a little silly.

Because the bootleg clip did not have a natural starting point, I suspect there was much before the Isengard scene that we did not see. There is some kind of clock running on the screen, and when the clip starts, it reads 01:03:29, and when the clip ends, it reads 1:06:48, so we are shown approximately 3 minutes of footage.

On Gandalf's broken staff problem, it seems fairly obvious the entirety of that scene wasn't shown to the audience... it gets cut off as soon as the WK lifts his sword and it immolates, so you can bet there is more after that. There were a couple of scenes I couldn't quite place... one was of a lone cloaked figure running across a battlement or bridge toward a structure. At first I had the wild hope that it was Sam approaching Cirith Ungol and the Watchers, but pausing and using slo-mo, you can tell it is Minas Tirith. I still can't figure out what the Eowyn sleeping in the Golden Hall scene is about... no doubt another PJ invention, just like her porridge scene in TTT.


About your Canada trip, pity you are not coming up the West Coast (I'm in Vancouver.) The east coast of Canada is about as dull and dreary a place as you can get. On the west side, we have the majestic Rocky Mountains, the lush rainforests, and Vancouver Island.

Valkrist wrote:I still can't figure out what the Eowyn sleeping in the Golden Hall scene is about... no doubt another PJ invention, just like her porridge scene in TTT.

I suspect Aragorn is going to have to heal her of the food poisoning she received from eating her own cooking.

Valkrist wrote:About your Canada trip, pity you are not coming up the West Coast (I'm in Vancouver.) The east coast of Canada is about as dull and dreary a place as you can get. On the west side, we have the majestic Rocky Mountains, the lush rainforests, and Vancouver Island.

I've never been to Vancouver, but sooner or later I'll probably go. I have been to Seattle and environs several times, and really enjoyed it. I used to have a cousin who lived inland in BC; I think the town was called Strathnaver, if that rings any bells.

Here's something that I hope will NOT be in the EE: the rather obvious DUMMY that sits in front of Eowyn on her horse in at least two scenes (it's supposed to be Merry). The first one is just before the charge of the Rohirrim, at about 1:58:48, when she says, "Courage, Merry, courage for our friends." There's just a glimpse of it then, when the camera drops, or the dummy's head bobs up, but it's pretty quick and you have to be looking for it. A much more obvious one comes about six minutes later, during the charge at the Mumakil. As they're galloping along, the dummy head bobs way up, and if you freeze-frame it, it's hysterical!

PJ fixed at least one thing in one of the previous movies for the DVD (the car in the Frodo/Sam/cornfield/scarecrow scene in FOTR), so here's hoping he fixed this one. If he knew about it, I'm sure he did.

Oh, the list of goofups in all three films is simply enormous. The Frodo-dummy that Arwen rides to the Fords with is very obvious in a couple of shots and PJ didn't do much to fix that, so I don't think he will bother with the Merry-dummy.

Here is my wish-list of stuff that I wish would be in the EE, but 99.99% probability will not be:

- Sam confronts the stone Watchers at Cirith Ungol
- Argorn finds the sapling of the White Tree
- Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas find the skeleton of the warrior at the door in the Paths of the Dead
- Prince Imrahil
- Palantir of Minas Tirith
- Gimli and Legolas visit Aglarond and/or Ithilien

and last but not least...

- GET RID OF THAT "ARWEN IS DYING" CRAP!!!

Yeah I wondered about that Arwen dying bit I don't remember it in the books.

That's because it's not in the books. It is a fabrication, and a very ill-conceived one.

Everything looks pretty good in that short clip. Good enough for me. Ive just thought though that thell probly put sam dumping the 'light of somthing' into shelob because you see it disaper. The saurumon/grima scene looks cool.

This is off topic but i was just camping at saltspring, an island off vancouver island. Valkrist is right, the west of canada rocks!

Valkrist wrote:Oh, the list of goofups in all three films is simply enormous. The Frodo-dummy that Arwen rides to the Fords with is very obvious in a couple of shots and PJ didn't do much to fix that, so I don't think he will bother with the Merry-dummy.

I've heard conflicting reports on whether the LOTR flix are better or worse than average for mistakes in films of their size/complexity. I had never noticed the Frodo-dummy with Arwen, unless you mean that it's obviously a dummy by the way it doesn't move like a person. The Merry dummy is really obvious because you actually see the face, and they didn't do that good a job painting it. But you're right, he probably won't fix it.

Valkrist wrote:Here is my wish-list of stuff that I wish would be in the EE, but 99.99% probability will not be:

- Sam confronts the stone Watchers at Cirith Ungol
- Aragorn finds the sapling of the White Tree
- Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas find the skeleton of the warrior at the door in the Paths of the Dead
- Prince Imrahil
- Palantir of Minas Tirith
- Gimli and Legolas visit Aglarond and/or Ithilien

and last but not least...

- GET RID OF THAT "ARWEN IS DYING" CRAP!!!

You're probably right on most of that. There may be a chance for Sam and the Watchers and for the Palantir of Minas Tirith, and a tiny chance for a skeleton in the Paths of the Dead, but it's pretty much zero chance for the rest of your list, particularly the Arwen bit.

Speaking of the Palantir of Minas Tirith, I had read somewhere a few months back (long enough ago that I don't remember how reliable it was) that Denethor would be shown using the P of MT and would see Frodo getting nailed by Shelob, and would know that the Quest had failed, and that along w/Faramir's apparent death is what puts him over the edge (unintentional pun in light of his mode of demise in the movie!).

Gil-Galad wrote:I think that Prince Imrahil is in the movie. I may be wrong, but I think that he is the dude who tell Denathor that that Faramir's crew was out numberd and none came back. Like I said, I could be wrong. I will post a picure that gave me the idea in the gallery.

Well, the pic does say Imrahil on it, doesn't it? In spite of that, I always assumed that character was Beregond, the one who (in the book) leaves his post to get help when Denethor is going to burn Faramir.

Which raises another question--who's that kid in Gondorian armor at the Black Gate? There is at least one and maybe two closeups on his face prior to the onslaught. I was wondering if maybe it was supposed to be Bergil, Beregond's son, who in the book is Pippin's tour guide in Minas Tirith before the battle.

Perhaps the EE shall answer all these questions...it's going to have to give a lot of setup for these characters, unless they're just going to be left to be "Gondorian Soldier 1," "Gondorian Soldier 2," etc. (I checked the credits on IMDB before posting).

I've heard that same theory before, that Prince Imrahil is the guy at the gates with the one line of dialogue, but somehow that doesn't fit. I think if PJ was going to put that particular character in the movie, he would have accorded it more importance rather than to just leave him nameless in one brief scene. Also, the whole setup seems out of place for Imrahil... unless the scene is somewhat e xp anded in the EE.

I never noticed the Bergil wanna-be kid at the Black Gates. Will have to look for him next time.

Valkrist wrote:I've heard that same theory before, that Prince Imrahil is the guy at the gates with the one line of dialogue, but somehow that doesn't fit. I think if PJ was going to put that particular character in the movie, he would have accorded it more importance rather than to just leave him nameless in one brief scene. Also, the whole setup seems out of place for Imrahil... unless the scene is somewhat e xp anded in the EE.

Yeah, I really don't think it's Imrahil unless PJ gave him a complete change of premise. Which obviously is quite possible! I don't remember Imrahil showing up till after the siege, but I may be mistaken. It's been a while since I read the book.

Valkrist wrote:
I never noticed the Bergil wanna-be kid at the Black Gates. Will have to look for him next time.

"Kid" may be overstating it a bit--he looks young (beardless), but maybe not that young. I think in the book Bergil was 10ish. We'll see.

I'm fairly sure Imrahil arrives before the siege. When all the troops are arriving from the outlying fiefs and towns, Tolkien goes into great details as to where each contingent is from, who is leading it, and how many men are part of it. The largest and most important one to arrive is that of Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth. Of course, it might confuse the average moviegoer why there is a prince in a kingdom ruled by a Steward. You really have to know your Tolkien to know the answer to that.

I was actually looking forward to this little bit in the movie. I wasn't e xp ecting a full-on roll call, like in the book, but some small token scene showing some support troops coming in from other areas of Gondor would've been nice. I didn't really like how PJ portrayed Gondor as being essentially only the city of Minas Tirith. Aside from the Osgiliath garrison, the supposedly great and vaunted southern kingdom that everyone talks about is reduced to one single city. It's hard to take Gandalf seriously when he asks Denethor where Gondor's armies are. What armies? At least Rohan looked a little more viable of a kingdom in the way it was portrayed. I realize they can't show every little thing... but something... anything, would have been nice. Even a brief shot of the Corsairs attacking the Royal Fleet at Pelargir.

Gil-Galad wrote:I found another site that say that that dude is Prince Imrahil.

That's all fine and well, but until I have some in-movie evidence to confirm that, I will choose to disregard it simply because the guy in the movie and the scene in which he's in do not fit the profile at all of Prince Imrahil.

PJ snuck in a few characters without naming them... you can see Elrond's twin sons, Elladan and Elrohir sitting at his side during the Council. The orc that leads the siege of Minas Tirith is Gothmog, and one can even theorize that the white-bearded dwarf that arrives with Gimli is his father Gloin. These I can accept because they make sense and are obvious in some cases. The supposed Imrahil cameo is not convincing or obvious, in my opinion.

I don't doubt that wherever it was that you looked is convinced the person in question is Imrahil. The problem lies with the fact that the sole piece of evidence that supports this claim is the Dechiper game card (as far as I know.) Unfortunately, game cards are riddled with inconsistencies and errors, and can hardly be used as conclusive and final evidence in cases like this. A lot of the cards show pre-production photos of things and scenes that never even saw the light of day, and sometimes the designing team gets a little carried away and decides to arbitrarily and creatively give names to previoulsy unnamed objects or people seen in the movies for the sole purpose of creating just another game card.

Look to the Star Wars Decipher card game for a notorious example of that.

This is why, until he is actually named in the EE DVD, or PJ himself says in one of the interviews that the soldier in question was officially meant to be Imrahil, that I will continue to refuse to believe this is the case. Imrahil in the books was a minor character, but was still important enough to merit a bigger role than the one line this Gondor soldier-x delivers in the movie. I simply can't see PJ going to the trouble of casting this character, and then botching it up like that. The EE may indeed e xp lain this, but I seriously doubt it.

Val, I think you're right about the role call prior to the siege, so it could be Imrahil. In the book, however, Prince I comes across very noble and dignified, whereas in the movie, if this is him, he comes across as a whiny, told-you-so, buttkisser. Of course, it wouldn't be the first time PJ turned a character inside-out.

I didn't know that the elves sitting next to Elrond (speaking of changed characters!) were supposed to be his sons. I thought the famous "Figwit" was supposed to be one of the ones sitting near Elrond. I've never been able to spot him in that council scene tho. It would only be in a long shot, and my TV is too small to recognize faces in a long-shot freeze-frame. It would have been nice if PJ could have worked in the sons, somehow. However, I'd have much preferred to see the Dunedain of Arnor, who are completely AWOL. Arnor itself pretty much passes without mention. How hard would it have been to have had Gandalf or Aragorn toss out a line about it during the trek? In the Eowyn stew scene in TTT:EE, Aragorn mentions it, but in the context, it sounds like the Northern Kingdom is Numenor. Bad juxaposition of words, or is it possible that PJ et al. thought Numenor was the Northern Kingdom?

Yes, MT does come off as a one-city nation. Perhaps the EE will remedy that. I also felt that Rohan came off somewhat poorly in that regard in TTT. They had supposedly only 300 guys defending Helm's Deep, and it's made to look as tho all of them get killed except Theoden's immediate guard, yet in ROTK, when the Rohirrim ride out from Edoras, there's oodles of them again. PJ has an unresolved dichotomy between liking to play up the odds against the good guys, yet show big scenes of them riding out in force.

Figwit? You have to enlighten me on that one.

Yes, the sudden sprout of Rohirrim soldiers in ROTK does seem a little odd after Helm's Deep, but there are two factors to consider here:

1- Though there were only 300 warriors at HD, this was but a small fraction of the forces available to Theoden. The problem is the sequence and timing of events in the movie, necessarily shortened for length, but sacrificing a bit of logic in the process. When Theoden receives news of the impending attack, he resolves to evacuate Edoras and put up a defense at Helm's Deep. On such short notice, a king cannot possibly levy all the troops from the outlying provinces and villages with sufficient time to raise an effective army. This is why all he has to work with are the soldiers at Edoras and the garrison at Helm's Deep. On the other hand, Eomer already has 200 soldiers under his command at this time, a highly mobile force that Gandalf joins and then proceeds to round up as many soldiers as possible in five days. Thus, at the end of the siege, Eomer is able to show up with 2000 extra warriors.

2- Similarly, in ROTK, and with a little more time to prepare, Theoden is able to muster 6000 riders before going to Gondor. During the muster scenes at Dunharrow, it is evident from Theoden's words that he was counting on more men, but there would be no time (the reference to Snowbourne.) So, it's not that it is an issue of Rohan, which is a large kingdom, being short on men, but that raising a sizeable army involves a certain amount of time and managing of resources. The problem with the movies of course is that the audience is e xp ected to assume or work this out on their own, otherwise it looks very odd, as you pointed out.


Lastly, I would add that surprisingly enough, PJ did not deviate at all from Tolkien in the way he did this. In the books, aside from elves that should never have been there, the numbers of Rohirrim (pre and post Eomer) at Helm's Deep and then later at the Pelennor are a match for what PJ shows us.

Valkrist wrote:Figwit? You have to enlighten me on that one.

"Figwit" is not the character's real name. In ROTK I think he's billed as "Elven Escort." He's the one who says, "Lady Arwen, we've got to keep moving" or whatever. He was set dressing w/no lines in the Council scene in FOTR and some of the fans noticed him merely because he's very cute. They decided to give him a name, Figwit, of all things. That would be a dreadful name for an Elf, but it might be passable for a Bree Hobbit. In any case, they built up this huge following for him, even to the extent that documentaries have been done about it. PJ rewarded them by putting the guy in ROTK and giving him a line. (Really, he should have powdered his face a bit. Elves are not supposed to be capable of growing a beard, yet you can really see his whiskers beneath the skin in his closeup.) The actor's real name is Bret McKenzie and he's a musician from, I believe, Scotland.

If you google 'Figwit,' you'll come up with more sites than you can shake a stick at. Here are a couple of pix from figwitlives.net. Hmmmm, looks like Jackson gave him an (inappropriate, of course) name after all.

Ah, the mysterious "Figwit" is revealed at last.

Ok, here is my theory on that:

PJ is not above casting the same actor in different parts, especially ones that have almost no screen time, or one line at best. The advantage in this is that not only are you paying just one person for the job, you are also counting on the fact that due to reduced screen presence, the audience will likely not spot the 'cloning' problem. Of course, in this guy's case, PJ may have severely underestimated the prepubescent swooning hordes of fangirls. :rolleyes:

Ok... now for the Decipher card. I serioulsy doubt PJ had anything to do with naming that guy 'Aegnor.' Though Decipher is bound by New Line to use the correct names while making their cards, they have a certain degree of latitude with nameless and unimportant characters such as this one. They don't really have to check with the director for that, it is part of their licensing agreement to exercise creative rights and e xp and the card game by adding fictitious names, while being constrained by actual movie photos. The same follows true for the LOTR Decipher RPG: they can create and add, but not rename or contradict.

Concerning Figwit's identity, I think it is far too coincidental that Elrond would have two elves seated to either side of him during the Council scene... two elves that are apparently the same age, dark-haired, and look nearly identical. Any astute viewer and knower of Tolkien can deduce that those two were more than likely meant to represent his twin sons, Elrohir and Elladan. Obviously they are never named for the benefit of the audience, but the logic behind these deductions is hard to refute. Also, I suspect that the actor on the Decipher card is not the same as the photo you posted of the Council scene. Why? When the Fellowship is leaving Rivendell, that same elf from the Council photo you posted is standing right behind Arwen as she bids farewell to the departing group. It is a clear shot (looking at it right now,) and though while there are similarities, it is clearly and postively a different man than the one on the Decipher card (Aegnor.)

This leads me to conclude one of two things:

1- The fans are obviously confused (maybe one pretty elf boy looks much the same as another to them,) and these are obviously two different actors. Thus Figwit/Aegnor was never in that scene to begin with.

or

2- Perhaps the Figwit/Aegnor actor is actually the elf sitting to the OTHER side of Elrond, but someone got the photos mixed up because, as per my point of them being like twins, the two guys look very much alike.


Either way, the setup in the Council scene looks a little too obvious... and I cannot fathom why else two identical young elves would sit to either side of Elrond, unless they were meant to represent his sons. Especially when there are several more elves present, yet none is accorded a special seat at the Lord of Rivendell's side.

Whoever Figwit is mean to be... who knows? Some random elf escorting Arwen, that much we know. One thing is for sure... he came off looking rather lame in ROTK, and that leads me to believe that, in character, he would not be someone important or wise enough to be sitting at Elrond's side.

I would love to think that the Elves flanking Elrond at the council are his sons, and the reasoning you give seems logical. However, it is reasoning, and PJ has often shown himself to be immune to that particular quality. He may just as likely have decided that they are Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum. Some folks think that some of the Elves at the council are Glorfindel and Erestor, although what they're basing that on, I don't know.

I don't think the Elf known as Figwit, shown at the council in that one pic I posted, is the same Elf that's standing behind Arwen in the departure of the Fellowship scene. They're both skinny guys w/dark hair, but I don't think they're the same guy. In truthfulness, I've never been able to spot "Figwit" in the council scene in the movie itself, although I've seen that screen cap posted in many places. Which makes me realize, if the Elf behind Arwen at the departure were Figwit, there'd be screen caps galore of that shot on the Figwit sites. Also, most of the publicity about the Figwit phenomenon (say that three times fast!) always plays up the unlikeliness of it by pointing out that his appearance in the first movie is limited to one second of screen time at the Council of Elrond.

I'm not sure of other instances where PJ used the same actor to play different roles, except 1) his own cameos and 2) stunt guys under orc makeup or face-obscuring helmets.

Well, I'm fairly certain that one of the elves sitting beside Elrond is indeed the guy standing behind Arwen later on. I distinctly remember making that connection several times without really thinking about it, and that cannot be mere coincidence. But you are right in one respect... who truly knows what PJ was thinking, and who those two guys are really supposed to be? Until I have irrefutable proof from PJ's own mouth that those are not Elrond's sons, then I will continue to believe they are simply because it makes sense and it works for me... certainly better than some moronic pretty-boy named Figwit. :rolleyes:


There are a couple of blonde, unnamed elves sitting at the Council beside Legolas, so just as I reasoned that Elrond's sons were there, I suppose one could say they are Erestor and Glorfindel, although I would say I have a stronger claim to my theory. One thing I can't quite remember though: when Gimli is shown arriving, there are several dwarves with him, but does Legolas come alone? He does in the book, but I think in the movie there are others with him, and if so, perhaps these are the extras at the Council?


Anyhow, you never told me what you thought of my reasoning behind figuring out where the extra Rohirrim soldiers came from...

Valkrist wrote:Anyhow, you never told me what you thought of my reasoning behind figuring out where the extra Rohirrim soldiers came from...

Oh, I was kind of in a hurry, and since I agreed w/your reasoning, I didn't bother to comment.

OK, I watched the Council scene since my last post and have further thoughts on the topic. Bear in mind that I have a 15-year old 26" TV, so it's hard to pick out certain things.

I don't think either of the Elves flanking Elrond is Figwit. I can't see their faces well enough to tell if either is the one behind Arwen at the departure of the Fellowship (the tall gawky-looking guy). The guy at the departure might be one of the Elves standing looking stunned just after the ruckus, when Frodo says "I will take it." (I forget what main character was in the scene w/him, so I can't be more specific.)

When Aragorn steps forward and says "If by my life or death," the Elf to the left of him (his right) may be Figwit. If it is, it's the only time I could spot him in the entire council sequence.

Legolas does not arrive alone at RIvendell. There are some other blond elves with him. I suspect they are the ones flanking him at the Council. So I doubt those are Glorfindel and Erestor.

The elves flanking Elrond have medium-brown hair, like Elrond's, so they could be his sons. If they are, this is yet another departure from the books, as in the book, the sons do not attend the council, as I recall. In fact, they're on a mission to search the surrounding area for Ringwraiths, or have been to Lorien, or some such thing.

By the way, any theory on who the other humans are at the Council? They're sitting beside Boromir, and for a while I assumed they were his advisors, but then I decided not. In the book, Boromir travels alone to Rivendell. In the movies, he's shown departing Osgiliath alone, and arriving at Rivendell alone. So I don't know who they'd be. Dunedain of Arnor? Laketown dudes? They're dressed pretty snazzy, as I recall.

Unfortunately, since Jackson eschews use of names for non-main characters, fearing audience overload, we'll never know the answers to any of our questions. Example: in the prologue, neither Elendil nor Gil-galad are mentioned by name! The only times Elendil's name is mentioned in the 3 movies, that I can think of, is when Aragorn shouts it as he tackles Orcs at Amon Hen, and when Galadriel tells him he has a choice to rise above all his ancestors since the time of Elendil. Unfortunately, she later slaughters the pronunciation of Earendil, and calls him Elendil. Go figure.

You are right that the sons of Elrond did not attend the Council in the book... they were out guarding the vale while the fate of the ring was decided (if I recall correctly.) However, if PJ did intend for those two dudes to represent Elladan and Elrohir, then I am willing to forgive the misplacement of the characters and consider myself lucky that he thought to include them at all as a nod to us hardcore Tolkien nuts.

My guess is a good as yours as to who the blonde elves with Legolas are. The natural assumption is that they are Mirkwood companions of his, though in the book I'm pretty sure he comes alone. Whatever the case, that rules out Glorfindel and Erestor.

The humans beside Boromir have been confirmed to be men of Laketown. I remember reading an article once, before the FOTR EE came out, that mentioned this fact, and also revealed that those men actually had spoken lines in that scene, but which were cut out for the theatrical cut. It was assumed at the time those lines would be restored in the EE, but as we now know, that did not happen, which is a shame as I would like to know what they would have said (Laketown being a cool little reference to The Hobbit.)

Lastly, yes... it is a great shame that Elendil and Gil-galad were so badly short-changed. Originally, the Prologue scenes were much longer, and there was actual dialogue filmed between those characters (production photos abound of Gil-galad in different scenes.) Reportedly, PJ was somewhat dissatified with Mark Ferguson's performance (Gil,) and decided to edit out his speaking parts, and greatly shortening the Prologue in the process, which was something else he wanted to do. They had even gone as far as storyboarding Gil-galad's attack and subsquent fiery death at the hands of Sauron, just like in the book, but I don't think this was actually ever shot. In the current version, you can see exactly where this scene was to fit in:

All the combatants pause as Sauron approaches, with Elrond and Elendil looking up. Sauron proceeds to bash humans and elves alike. Then the camera cuts to Elendil rushing forward to confront Sauron. The scene with Gil-galad dying would have been just before that, prompting Elendil's rush to aid his friend. The rest of the scenes would have continued just as is, with Isildur coming next.

A real pity, because it would have been very stunning and tragic to see, if done right.

The info on the cut scenes with Gil-galad was in an excerpt from a PJ interview a couple of years back. I think it was on TORN, though I can't be positive anymore. Many clips of Gil-galad can be seen in the FOTR EE extras, though there is no dialogue.

The storyboards for Gil-galad's death can also be found in the extras of the FOTR EE.

Sci Fi Wire (Sci Fi channel) posted this:

David Wenham, who played Faramir in the Lord of the Rings trilogy, told SCI FI Wire that the upcoming special extended-edition DVD of The Return of the King will feature deleted scenes that further develop his character. "It sort of shows that Faramir is probably the strongest member of the family," he said in an interview. "[There's] a scene with Denethor and Faramir where they talk about the ring of power, and Faramir is accused by his father of not being up to it by not actually taking the ring. And Faramir says, 'You don't know the power of this ring, and if Boromir had taken it, you wouldn't have known your son.'"

In another scene, which takes place in the houses of healing, the love story between Faramir and Eowyn (Miranda Otto) is further developed. "The other scene that I think is wonderful to have in the extended cut is the houses of healing," Wenham said. "To give the audience [the chance] to see Eowyn and Faramir come together. ... You sort of get the result. So it was implicit, the fact that something had happened since the last time you saw these two characters. So the audience gets the opportunity to see exactly what happened in the houses of healing." The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King special edition will be released in the fall.