Re: Any ideas what will be appearing in the extended edition of Return of the King

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There are a couple of reasons why the blood is black and can still belong to the Mouth of Sauron. First, the Mouth, though once a man, is now a corrupt and ancient being who has lived for centuries through foul sorcery and long ago gave up any right to his humanity. Though I can't say for sure, I'm willing to bet that something of that nature would change your body in some unpleasant ways, not the least of which would be to turn your blood into a dark and putrid colour. The techical reason is a little simpler: the less amount of red blood you show in a movie, the better your chances of achieving a PG-13 rating for the movie, which is what PJ wanted. There are some parameters, and the amount of blood you show is a key factor. Strangely, you can show buckets of green or black blood and be ok, but red is a no-no because it looks real and is too graphic for a younger audience.
Last edited by Valkrist on Sun Aug 15, 2004 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Spelling

Re: Any ideas what will be appearing in the extended edition of Return of the King

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A very interesting article I found on the web. IT talks about some of the scenes in the Extended Edition of the Return of the King:

The Extended Edition preview is edited in a similar fashion to the previous two, with bits of footage mixed in with interviews with the cast and crew about the new footage:


We see Frodo and Sam in their Orc disguises joining the column of Orcs as they march out of Mordor.


There are numerous shots of the Houses of Healing with Faramir, Eowyn, and Merry all seen.


A lot more looks to be added to the siege of Minas Tirith, as there was a bunch of new battle footage.


Frodo and Sam venture into the Crossroads and a few clips from that section were included.


The Mouth of Sauron is featured pretty heavily. If you've played EA's Return of the King video game you'll recognize the scene. The Mouth of Sauron rides out of the Black Gate and presents Frodo's mithril coat to the Fellowship.


Aragorn reveals himself to Sauron by approaching the Palantir in Minas Tirith and wields Anduril to show that the Heir of Elendil was alive.


We get to see more of Saruman later in the preview when he knocks Wormtongue down and also fires a giant fireball from his staff that engulfs Gandalf on Shadowfax.


There's more of Frodo and Sam in Mordor after they join the column of Orcs and before they discard their disguises. In one scene, Sam looks to the dark sky of Mordor and tells Frodo that he can see light as one little star can be seen glimmering through the clouds.


And yes, we will finally get to see Gandalf facing down the Witch King. It happens exactly as we've seen, but when Gandalf holds up his staff the Witch King pulls out his sword and holds it to the sky where it spouts flames. As he brings it down, the air around the burning sword is distorted.



That was just the preview. New Line treated fans to three full clips, with the third introduced by Peter Jackson himself:


There was a nice scene of Pippin and Faramir in Gondor where Faramir e xp lains to the Hobbit how the small Gondorian armor he was wearing belonged to a young son of the Steward when he was a kid. Faramir further e xp lains how Boromir was always the soldier and he wasn't.


A scene that takes place about five days after they were healed by Aragorn features Faramir and Eowyn on a balcony at the Houses of Healing where Eowyn falls for Faramir.


The Paths of the Dead is extended from where it ends in the theatrical cut. After Aragorn poses his offer, the dead laugh and go back into the walls. A massive earthquake starts, and the Three Hunters must escape an avalanche of millions of skulls.


Described, but not shown, another scene e xp anded in this edition is the scene where Pippin finds Merry on the battlefield. Now, Pippin searches the field for an entire day after everyone else has gone back into the city. He finally locates Merry at night in the new version of the scene.
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Re: Any ideas what will be appearing in the extended edition of Return of the King

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Are you kidding? The more frenzy they whip the fans into and the more frothing at the mouth that goes on in Forums like this, the more they guarantee that there will literally be a stampede at the stores when this thing finally comes out. That's what holding back release dates will do to people, and this fact is self-evident all over the internet.

Movie studios... gotta lov'em! :rolleyes:

Re: Any ideas what will be appearing in the extended edition of Return of the King

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Valkrist wrote:Are you kidding? The more frenzy they whip the fans into and the more frothing at the mouth that goes on in Forums like this, the more they guarantee that there will literally be a stampede at the stores when this thing finally comes out. That's what holding back release dates will do to people, and this fact is self-evident all over the internet.

Movie studios... gotta lov'em! :rolleyes:

While you sound as cynical as me :D remember that the EEs of the first two were announced simultaneously with the TEs, back in March or so of their respective years.

thedigitalbits.com said this evening they'e e xp ecting the announcement in a couple of weeks, and that retailers have been telling them the availability date they've been given is December 14.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Any ideas what will be appearing in the extended edition of Return of the King

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remember that the EEs of the first two were announced simultaneously with the TEs, back in March or so of their respective years.
Yes, I do remember that, but I also remember that at the time of those two annoucements, PJ lived and breathed LOTR. These days he is busy with King Kong, and I am willing to bet that is why this last EE is taking a bit longer. Also, this being the last chance in the near future to make some cash from this franchise for New Line, I'm sure they're doing their utmost to make this a DVD release we won't soon forget. ;)
Gothmog isn´t that the BALROG Captain - in SIL - strange that the Orc Captain/general should be named after this "demon" of Old.

Yes, Gothmog was indeed the name of the chief of Balrogs, back during the First Age. I think Sauron paid homage to his former master by naming some things in his era after those early times: Gothmog, Grond, etc.

In the books, Tolkien never does reveal exactly what type of being Gothmog is (during the Minas Tirith siege.) It is mentioned only that he/it is a high ranking lieutenant, and second only to the Witchking in commanding the assault against Gondor. Over time, there have been some theories arise as to what Gothmog might have been, the most popular two being a Nazgul or an Olog-hai.

I completely disagree with the Nazgul theory, and there are several ways to disprove it using the texts. I prefer the Olog-hai theory, but since PJ did not introduce that race in the movies, I am ok with Gothmog being an orc.

Re: Any ideas what will be appearing in the extended edition of Return of the King

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Grima Wormtongue wrote:Call me stupid, but whats a Olog-hai?

A brreed of orc im guessing :)

"Olog-hai" means "troll-race" in the Black Speech. It's the sun-resistant, not-so-dumb, super trolls that Sauron bred. They are to regular trolls as Uruk Hai are to regular orcs.

Which brings up another little point I don't know if anyone's harped on yet, relative to changes from the book. In the book, tho Saruman and Sauron both used Uruk Hai, Sauron was the creator of that race, not Saruman! But he gets no credit in the movie! (Tho there was an Uruk in ROTK: "Hands off that shiny shirt! That's mine!" As if it would fit him!)

One more little EE tidbit: thedigitalbits.com says that UK retailers are telling the it will street in Region 2 on 12/10.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Any ideas what will be appearing in the extended edition of Return of the King

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Valkrist wrote: I completely disagree with the Nazgul theory, and there are several ways to disprove it using the texts. I prefer the Olog-hai theory, but since PJ did not introduce that race in the movies, I am ok with Gothmog being an orc.

I would be interested in hearing your views why it couldn't be a Nazgul. I had never really thought much about it, but always assumed Gothmog was a Ringwraith (but like you, it doesn't bother me that they made him a [cancerous!] Orc).

In Unfinished Tales, Tolkien refers to the #2 Nazgul as Khamul, the Shadow of the East. He may have been in charge of Dol Guldur--its been too long since I read it to remember.

I just think it strange that the #2 being in charge of Sauron's forces for the siege of Gondor would be an orc or troll when there are other Nazgul--kings of men--around.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Any ideas what will be appearing in the extended edition of Return of the King

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Yes, Sauron did create the Uruk-hai, but didn't Saruman refine the process for his own purposes in the books? Anyhow, that didn't bother me as much as the fact that in the movies, common orcs and trolls pretty much go about outside in the daytime with complete impunity. As Tolkien wrote it, orcs were severely weakened and bothered by the sun, that's why he created the Uruk-hai in the first place, but this does not appear to be an issue at all in the films. In the case of the trolls, sunlight was downright lethal, hence Sauron creates the Olog-hai, but again we see trolls during the day at the Black Gates and Minas Tirith. Yes, I know some will say that it was overcast in those scenes, but PJ still made the sky look very bright, and the slightest break in the clouds would theoretically kill every troll in sight. I'm sure even Sauron could not predict the weather with complete accuracy... heck, even modern science can't do that. :D

On the issue of Gothmog, Tolkien, in all of his written work, only clearly ever names one of the Nazgul, and acknowledges it when he does so. This sole named Nazgul is, as you pointed out, Khamul The Easterling. Not even the Witchking's true name is ever revealed. If Gothmog were one of the Nazgul, Tolkien, who was an absolute nut for detail and placed tremendous importance on names, would not have failed to mention this very important fact in the text of ROTK. I find this omission a very telling fact in the case against Gothmog being a Nazgul. Furthermore, piecing together the sequence of events and dates of the War of the Ring as written in LOTR and Unfinished Tales, one can glean the following:

- Khamul is the leader of the Dol Guldur garrison, and among the Ringwraiths, he is second only to the WK himself. When the war begins, Sauron launches a four-pronged attack. Two of these prongs are directed at Lorien and the elven realm in Mirkwood, and Khamul leads these attacks. In UT, Tolkien writes that besides Khamul, there were two other Nazgul at Dol Guldur. One he he kept at his side, and another was used to run messages between Dol Guldur and Barad-dur.

- The WK leads the attack against Gondor from horse and fell beast, and in ROTK, Tolkien writes that five other wraiths battled in the skies against the White City. Three plus five plus one makes nine.

- After the attacks fail and the WK dies, Sauron pulls the eight surviving wraiths back to Mordor, using them one last time at the Black Gate.

I find absolutely no evidence in any text to make valid support for Gothmog being a Nazgul. I just simply can't understand how or why Tolkien would fail to mention something that important. Surely with armies as vast as those that Sauron commanded, it is only fitting that he have other commanders on the field besides the Nazgul, like the Mouth or Gothmog. I should note that in UT, Tolkien wavers between having three or two wraiths at Dol Guldur. However, even accounting for that discrepancy, he never does accord that to having any connection to Gothmog's identity, leading me to believe the two issues are completely unrelated and Gothmog remains something other than a wraith in either case.

I feel he was probably an Olog-hai rather than an ordinary orc because Tolkien's description of the intelligent trolls seems rather impressive, and there's nothing more commanding or terrifying to a large army of unruly orcs than a large brute with brains. An Olog-hai would fit the role of Gothmog perfectly, but that's just my opinion and only Tolkien will ever know for sure what Gothmog truly was.

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You're pretty persuasive, Valkrist. That all makes sense. You brought up something else I always wondered about. Why did a Nazgul have to fly back and forth between Dol Guldur and Barad-dur to take messages, when Sauron seems able to communicate telepathically with the wraiths? I think that's a little inconsistency Tolkien either never noticed or never got around to fixing or e xp laining away.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Any ideas what will be appearing in the extended edition of Return of the King

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I think Sauron's ability to communicate telepathically with the Nazgul was somewhat limited by distance. He obviously could summon them from the Morannon, and possibly even stay in touch with the WK in Gondor, but Dol Guldur is roughly three times the distance of that. An Nazgul on a swift fell beast could make for a pretty quicj and effective messenger between the two fortresses, and that was probably Tolkien's reasoning.

On a side note, Elrond and Galadriel shared a telephatic bond in the movies, no doubt a perk of their rings, but a complete invention by PJ, and one that I found quite silly.

Re: Any ideas what will be appearing in the extended edition of Return of the King

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Valkrist wrote:On a side note, Elrond and Galadriel shared a telephatic bond in the movies, no doubt a perk of their rings, but a complete invention by PJ, and one that I found quite silly.

I thought it worked ok as a story telling device. Also, I didn't think it was totally without precedent in terms of the texts. There is the scene towards the end of ROTK where everyone is embarked homeward, and camping somewhere in Minhiriath or Enedwaith. One of the Hobbits observes the Elves and Gandalf all sitting around the campfire or whatever, communicating telepathically. So they could do it over at least the distance of a campsite. Perhaps they are limited by distance, as you suggest (plausibly) for Sauron.

I can't remember right now, but it seems like the books implied that E & G had at least a general sense of what was going on with the other. At least there are references to their abilities becoming increasingly impeded by Sauron. "The Shadow has crept to the foot of the mountains, and all under it is dark to me" or something like that. In Star Trek terms, a damping field.

But even if I'm overinterpreting, and the Elrond/Galadriel telecon was a complete invention on PJ's part, it's certainly one of his least offensive. It doesn't rank up there with his clueless waffling on Arwen's mortality status, or the watering down of characters like Gandalf, Aragorn, or Theoden (who goes from a dithering old man to a dithering slightly less old man:rolleyes: ).
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Any ideas what will be appearing in the extended edition of Return of the King

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Valkrist wrote:Coming Soon! has December 7th as the release date. I have used their site for about two years now in planning my dvd purchases and they have yet to be wrong.

http://www.comingsoon.net/dvd/dec04.php

TORN had something a week or so ago, stating that retailers were telling them they'd been given a street date of 12/7, so I'm reasonably sure that will be the date. Now, I'm just wanting to see the official press release about it. I'm wanting a breakdown of what scenes have been added/e xp anded. Although that may not be in the press release; that's the kind of thing that usually comes from an interview w/PJ, if memory serves.

Last night I dreamed I was watching the EE, is that pathetic or what? The White Tree looked very different, very ominous, and very not white. But it was just a dream.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Any ideas what will be appearing in the extended edition of Return of the King

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Several sites, including TORn and DavisDVD, are now reporting that retailers are telling them the street date will be December 14. Davis DVD had this to say:

We now have a final street date for New Line's hotly anticipated Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King Special Extended Edition. Look for the final four-disc box set to street on December 14th with a retail price of $39.99. As usual, the set will include a bounty of bonus materials including audio commentaries, 50 minutes of new and extended scenes re-edited back into the film, in-depth documentaries, interviews, still galleries and more. The requisite Collector's Gift Set this time will include the exclusive bonus DVD Creating the Lord of the Rings Symphony by Howard Shore and a richly detailed Minas Tirith polystone statue (which actually opens up to become a keepsake box). Retail on this will be $79.92. We have a fantastic new shot of the gift set now in our cover gallery.

They also had a picture of the gift set, but I can't paste it in for some reason. The forum is acting very slow and strange this evening....
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
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