Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

552
Good grief! :| Has it been that long!?!

Strange bit of irony, but I finally nailed down a copy of the ROTK Complete Recordings from amazon.com, and it arrived two days ago, so almost like celebrating an anniversary. Amazon.ca has not had that item in stock for over a year now, so I had to resort to our american friends to get it. After all these years, the collection is complete. :)

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

555
Thanks, Valkrist, I appreciate that. Things are great with me. At college studying to be an Accountant (fun fun :P ) at the moment, where I was invited into the honours society after my first semester. So far, so good with regards to that, I think.

Apart from that, nothing much has changed. Not bought anything LotR related for quite some time, but I'm still an avid gamer! :thumbs_up

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

558
[quote=""Valkrist""]Good grief! :| Has it been that long!?!

Strange bit of irony, but I finally nailed down a copy of the ROTK Complete Recordings from amazon.com, and it arrived two days ago, so almost like celebrating an anniversary. Amazon.ca has not had that item in stock for over a year now, so I had to resort to our american friends to get it. After all these years, the collection is complete. :) [/quote]

Yeah, it's been that long. And congrats on finally getting the ROTK:CR! I'm sure you'll find it a marvelous work, just like the others.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

561
The fact that it's been seven years doesn't so much make me feel old as make me wonder where on earth that time went, and how fast it went. Those seven years have been pretty tumultuous on this side of the border: the 9/11 attacks, followed by war and protest, and now economic problems. May you live in interesting times, supposedly says the Chinese curse, and indeed we do. I think all that stuff going on makes time seem to fly even faster.

And now our governor here in Illinois has been arrested and charged with tons of corruption, and is under impeachment proceedings from the state legislature. Everybody knows he's crooked as a dog's hind leg but as recently as today, he gave a statement proclaiming his total innocence and his intent to fight to his last breath. Just what we need—more political drama. Even Nixon had called it quits by this point in the game.

In any case, and this is where this ties back to Middle-earth, I feel a re-reading of LOTR coming on. I can't remember for sure the last time I read the books. It would have been several years before FOTR came out, because I did not want the books too fresh in my mind (as if they could ever be anything but, so indelibly carved are they). So, it's probably been at least 10 years since I read them. I think when I come back from Christmas, I will grab the books, since into the recliner, immerse myself in Tolkien, and put our real world problems out of mind for a bit.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

563
Yeah, it's been quite some time since I read the books, and it's definitely overdue. I like to do the whole thing in one go: Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings. Should keep me busy for a couple of months. :crazy:

Also, I used to watch the trilogy at least once a year since it was fully released, but I've now missed a year, so about time for another viewing. :thumbs_up

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

568
The pronunciation of names and places in Tolkien is probably one of the more hotly debated topics. Being a philologist, and obviously the creator of his own body of work, you'd think that however Tolkien pronounced something, that that should be the correct way. I always said it the way they did in the movie, but if that is wrong, so be it. Not sure why they chose to mispronounce it, and whether they even knew they were doing it.

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

569
I only recall one instance of Tolkien saying Sauron's name in his recordings and that is in the snippet from the "Mt. Doom" chapter. He describes that when Sam enters the mountain, the Phial of Galadriel gives off no light that can penetrate the gloom. It has no power here, because the mountain is the heart of the realm of Sauron, and the forges of his ancient might.

Tolkien says "sou-RON," "sou" as in "south," and syllable stress heavily on the second syllable, RON. Personally I always put the stress on the first syllable, as it wouldn't have occurred to me that it was on the second, plus with it on the second, it sounds rather affected that way, IMHO. But who's to argue with Tolkien himself?

I thought the movies did a very good job with the names and languages. They had a number of linguists and dialog coaches working on the movies. I can think of maybe two instances where I thought an actor butchered a pronunciation. Cate Blanchette butchered "Earendil" when she gives Frodo the Phial, so much so that it sounds more like "Elendil," and Ian McKellen once calls the King of Rohan "THEE-oden" instead of "THEY-oden" (pardon my attempts at phonetic spelling but hopefully you get the idea).

I love how Christopher Lee pronounces the names. He's obviously been waiting his entire life to say these words to a camera, and he does so with great relish, though not so much so as to be out of place or over the top.

In any case, if there's anyone out there who doesn't have the "J. R. R. Tolkien Audio Collection," they need to buy it immediately! Tolkien reads excerpts from The Hobbit, LOTR, and The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, and Christopher Tolkien reads several nearly complete chapters from the Silmarillion. If you are a Tolkien fan, this is essential. Period.
Last edited by Olorin on Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

572
My eyes are killing me after reading almost every post in this thread. I had two things to hunt for and in doing so found three;
1- I love to learn about Middle earth.
2- I wanted to see if my question was already posted or discussed.
3- I discovered two people whom I believe are the best authorities on ME & Tolkien.
And the winners are- Olorin & Valkrist. While Olorin gave you a thumbs up on authority Valkrist (post #221) you lost a point in post #149 when you mentioned Eru and Illuvatar as if they are two seperate persons. :coolsmile
(Silmarillion, Ainulindale; The Music of the Ainur- First statement: "There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Illuvatar;...) but nonetheless you two are definintely the ones to engage with my query.
I have sought out for years anyone who may help on this; Silmarillion, Valaquenta (chapter 4? if you will) Of the Enemies, third paragraph concerning Melkor, beginning at third sentence- "For the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these SPIRITS were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle Earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.
Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that SPIRIT whom the Eldar called Sauron,...
I read this over and over and over, I've underlined key points, is it wrong for me to think that Tolkien is telling us that Sauron's first element of existance was that of being a Balrog?
Rekindling the fires of Orodruin which seem to have died out some four years ago (in this thread) posts#'s 57, 79, 89, 96, 110, 114, 149, 181, 196, and 204<very close.

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

573
Yes, you are misreading the text. All the Maiar, indeed all the Ainur, are spirits, though they can take bodily form with greater or lesser degrees of ease (depending on their state of "grace," if you will). When Tolkien said, "Among those of his servants that have names" he was referring to all Melkor's servants, not just the Balrogs. So far as I recall without looking it up, only one Balrog was ever mentioned by name, and that was Gothmog (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/g/gothmog.html). Because Tolkien apparently liked that name, he reused it as the "lieutenant of Morgul" who led the forces of Mordor in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields after the death of the Witch King. We don't know what sort of being this second Gothmog was (though it's safe to assume he wasn't a Balrog). I always assumed he was another Nazgul, though the ROTK movie depicted him as a tumorous Orc. I'm not sure an Orc would be second in command when there are other Nazgul around who are much more powerful and presumably more intelligent, but whatever.

In any case, Sauron was never a Balrog. He may have had some facility with fire magic, thought it may have been limited to his forging of the One. The special power Sauron possessed, as mentioned in the Silmarillion, was the power to create phantoms and illusions.
Last edited by Olorin on Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

574
[quote=""Thranduil""]While Olorin gave you a thumbs up on authority Valkrist (post #221) you lost a point in post #149 when you mentioned Eru and Illuvatar as if they are two separate persons.[/quote]

I believe you misread Valkrist's post. He's simply using the names Eru and Iluvatar interchangeably. But feel free to continue to flatter both of us! :thumbs_up
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

575
A spot upon my honour! I must redeem myself.

I have looked at post #149 and see that I made no such mistake. That Eru and Illuvatar are one and the same is like Basic ME 101. I couldn't fathom how I could have left the wording in such a way that would have led you to conclude that I had made such a obvious error, and upon rereading the post and I can sort of see it, but not really. It's all a question of semantics. Often when referring to the same individual more than once in a paragraph, I tend to alternate upon that same individual's names and titles, so as to avoid repetition for the reader. Thus, instead of "Eru, Eru, Eru," I simply used "Eru, Illuvatar, Eru." There is a quote in Sil that refers to "the grace of Illuvatar" so I felt it more appropriate in that instance to use that name instead of Eru. Trust me, I'm well aware they are one and the same. ;)

As for your question, I think it was touched upon in this thread, but if you didn't spot it, I'm not going to go through it all looking for it (unless it is buried somewhere in the posts you denoted.) I will merely state my thoughts on the matter: Tolkien seemed keen on establishing links and affinities between the Valar/Maiar and concepts/elements. In the case of Melkor and the Balrogs, you have spirits that were attuned to the element of fire, and thus their destructive tendencies and natures were more easily brought to the fore. Arien (who guided the sun) is one example of a fire-attuned Maia that Melkor was not able to sway to his side, though she is the closest the Valaraukar would have to 'kin.' In the case of Sauron, I believe it is stated that in the beginning, he was the highest skilled Maia in the service of Aule, whose domain is earth and shaping. Thus, though also a 'spirit' in the sense that you ask, he is not entirely like his Balrog brethren because he is more in tune with the element of earth rather than fire. This is seen in his knowledge and shaping of elements to create the One Ring.

Anyway, the short answer is, I don't think Sauron was ever a Balrog, not being a Maia fire spirit. He was an earth spirit and assumed different shapes. Note that the Balrogs became enslaved to their demonic shapes after their corruption by Melkor, but Sauron was so powerful among the Maiar however that he retained his ability to change forms even after entering Melkor's service, though he would lose the ability to assume a fair shape much later.

Hope that helps. :)

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

578
Both of you, Olorin & Valkrist, have settled the matter for me and I thank you. Your e xp lanations were what I needed to sort it out. When seeking answers for oneself, a person can keep stumbling on the same stone. Like getting stuck in a math problem constantly making the same error.
As for flattery, you can be assured I will continue since I've obviously encountered the best of company to associate with in these matters.
Emissary of the Valor INDEED!
Hope no offence was taken concerning Eru and Illuvatar, Valkrist, one thing I've learned in communicating in words is that whats written isn't always whats intended, funny how some think of communicating as only being the transmission and forget that the receiving is the second half of the equation, I'm glad you both are willing to transmit back.
As you have proven to be full of insight, I assume you both know my son?

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

579
[quote=""Valkrist""]Oh, and by the way, there is one other Balrog that was named, besides Gothmog, though not in the Silmarillion. In Lays of Beleriand, Tolkien introduces us to Lungorthin (White Demon Fire,) the Master of the Guard beneath Thangorodrim.[/quote]

Ah, that one escaped me. I have read Lays of Beleriand, of course, but only once, and it was many years ago...late 80s. I recall reading it on Amtrak while on a trip from southern Illinois to Chicago. Funny how things like that stick in the mind.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

581
[quote=""Olorin""]Picture a vast, towering figure of black clouds, crowned with lightning, erupting from the collapse of the Dark Tower, reaching out to crush the Army of the West.... and it is dissipated by a cold breeze from the west. That's how Tolkien described it, and it would have been the capstone of all the evil beings depicted in the movies, and could have been convincingly rendered with CGI. But PJ didn't do it, for some reason. In the book, Saruman also had a similar death (he was of the same class of being), but we didn't get that either. I don't know why.[/quote]

OK, picture it looking like this, except in vaguely humanoid form:

http://www.news.illinois.edu/WebsandThu ... ning_b.jpg
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

584
[quote=""Thranduil""]HOLY SMOKE! Either that or Mordor's on the move. Is that a photo from recent eruption in Alaska or South America (Equador)? I lose track.[/quote]

It is an eruption. Where and how recent, I don't know. A friend emailed me the link w/basically no e xp lanation.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

592
Funny stuff! :crazy2:

Humourous as it is, that is probably the single most asked question by readers and viewers who read the books or watch the movies for the first time: why didn't they fly the ring to Mt.Doom on a giant eagle and just drop it in?

Simple answer: you can't tell a story about sacrifice, endurance, and perseverance in the face of overwhelming odds if you just give in to 'deus ex machina' plot devices to solve all your problems.

Yes, logically they could have tried it, but that would have been one short book that no one would have been interested in reading. In-story, there are probably several reasons why it wasn't tried. The giant eagles were noble and intelligent beings but also fiercely independent, and while they helped Gandalf on three distinct occasions, they weren't exactly around to be at the disposal of the White Council, or to act as couriers for one of the most potent artifacts the world had ever seen. Furthermore, with the Nazgul abroad and very close on the heels of the ring, they could have easily haven taken flight on fell beasts and made easy targets out of the eagles flying into Mordor. Moving the ring over the ground was far safer and harder to detect, if slower.

Another reason this likely wasn't tried ties in closely with the mission of the Istari. The five wizards were Maiar spirits encased in human flesh, extremely powerful beings on a scale that could rival the Balrog and Sauron himself, for they were all of the same kin. However, their guideline, as set out by the Valar, was one that was not meant to make the Istari contend with Sauron power for power. Rather their mission was to guide and counsel the free peoples of Middle-earth to rely on themselves and to oppose the enemy of their own free will and resources. Likewise, the giant eagles were beings created by Manwe, Lord of the Valar, and vassals of his power and will. Like the Istari, there was likely a constraint on how far they could interfere and aid, and in what form that aid would come. To have them fly the ring to Mt.Doom would have been akin to instructing Gandalf or Saruman to use their full Maiar powers to vanquish the ring, or to bring it back over the seas to Valinor and keep it out of Sauron's reach forever. If the free peoples had not fought and suffered for their freedom from tyranny, and victory was simply handed to them, of what value would that freedom have been, and what lesson would have they learned?
Last edited by Valkrist on Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
This Space for Rent

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

593
Uhm, how about this:

So close to Mount Doom, do you believe Frodo - or anyone else for that
matter - would really be able to drop the Ring just like that? It wouldn't allow
anyone to part with it, I guess that theme has been repeated and debated
ten thousand times in the book and almost as much in the movies. Sure, if you
wanna make "funny" flash animation, it's easy to ignore something as
"irrelevant" as that.

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

594
A very good point, Ed.

However, not everyone reacted in the exact same way to the ring, and different people seemed to have different levels of tolerance to it, as well as resistance. It basically appealed to an individual's lust for power and dominance over others, and I guess the message is that we all have varying degrees of that deep down, no matter how little.

How does this all relate to your point? Hobbits, by their innocent nature, seemed particularly resilient to the lure of the ring. Bilbo had it for decades, and though it was extremely difficult for him, he still was able to give it to Frodo. Within a much shorter time period, Frodo was more than willing to part with it at Elrond's Council and let someone wiser deal with it. What it all leads to is this: if the eagles had been summoned then and Frodo flown to Mt.Doom, the journey likely would have taken a couple of days at most. Given how long Frodo endured in the real story, it seems next to impossible that the ring would have been able to exert its influence over him so fully during a flight to Mt. Doom that it would have been able to convince him not to drop the ring at the last moment.

Not that there isn't a tremendous amount of merit to your point, Ed, and I fully agree that with many lesser individuals (like Boromir,) flying the ring to Mordor could well have failed. Not with Frodo though. Not that quickly.
This Space for Rent

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

596
[quote=""BladeCollector""]Look how quickly it took Isildur not to want to part with the ring after defeating Sauron... apparently men easily lust for and go mad for and with power.[/quote]

Hence my post: men were more easily corrupted (except for Faramir and Aragorn somewhat,) hobbits were highly resistant, elves shunned it, and dwarves turned that power to greed. Within each race, every individual had varying degrees of susceptibility or resistance, as it were, to the ring's lure.

I should note here that the movie-version of Isildur came across as rather 'evil,' cowardly, and just downright sinister. It was hardly behaviour worthy of a prince of Numenor, and the books do a lot more justice to his character and lineage, going so far as to e xp lain how Isildur rationalized in his mind why he should refuse Elrond and why he kept the ring. This isn't to say even a man of his stature couldn't succumb to it, because he did, but even then the ring only did so by playing upon his desire to do good. Movie-Isildur just came across as an unsympathetic fool.
This Space for Rent

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

599
I should probably put this in a new thread, but since this pertains to Tolkien's homeland and Anglo-Saxon designs served as a reference point for designs for all things Rohan in the movies, I'll post it here.

From CNN:
Englishman's metal detector finds record treasure trove


LONDON, England (CNN) -- A man using a metal detector in a rural English field has uncovered the largest Anglo-Saxon gold hoard ever found -- an "unprecedented" treasure that sheds new light on history, archaeologists said Thursday.
Image


A gold strip with a Biblical inscription was among the 1,500 pieces unearthed in an English field.

[url=http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:CNN_changeMosaicTab%28%27cnnPhotoCmpnt%27,%27photos.html%27%29;]more photos »[/url]

Image



The hoard includes 5 kilograms (11 pounds) of gold and 2.5 kilograms (5.5 pounds) of silver. That is more than three times the amount of gold found at Sutton Hoo, one of Britain's most important Anglo-Saxon sites, said the local council in Staffordshire where the latest haul was found.

It's an "incredible collection of material -- absolutely unprecedented," said Kevin Leahy, an archaeologist with the Portable Antiquities Scheme, a voluntary group that records finds made by members of the public. "We've moved into new ground with this material."

Because the find is so large and important, e xp erts haven't been able to say yet how much it is worth. They hope to make a valuation within 13 months, Staffordshire Council said.
Image
Watch report on discovered treasure »
The hoard was discovered in July by Englishman Terry Herbert, who was using a metal detector he bought more than a decade ago in a jumble sale for only a few pounds (dollars). He belongs to a local metal detecting club in Staffordshire and was just out enjoying his hobby when he made the find.

There was so much gold at the site that Herbert said he was soon seeing it in his sleep.

"Imagine you're at home and somebody just keeps putting money through your letterbox. That's what it was like," Herbert told Britain's Press Association. "As soon as I closed my eyes I saw gold patterns. I didn't think it was ever going to end."

Herbert found 500 items before he called in e xp erts, who then found a further 800 articles in the soil. Officials aren't saying exactly where the gold was found, other than to say it was in Staffordshire, in north-central England.

"Pieces were just literally sat at the top of the soil, at the grass," said Ian Wykes, of the county council. He said the hoard had been unearthed by recent plowing.

Most of the pieces appear to date from the 7th century, though e xp erts can't agree on when the hoard first entered the ground, Staffordshire Council said.

The pieces are almost all war gear, Leahy said. There are very few dress fittings and no feminine dress fittings; there are only two gold buckles, and they were probably used for harness armor, he said.

Sword hilt fittings and pieces of helmets, all elaborately decorated, are among the more remarkable finds.

"The quantity of gold is amazing but, more importantly, the craftsmanship is consummate," Leahy said. "This was the very best that the Anglo-Saxon metalworkers could do, and they were very good. Tiny garnets were cut to shape and set in a mass of cells to give a rich, glowing effect; it is stunning."

The items belonged to the elite -- aristocracy or royalty, he said, though it's not clear who the original or final owners were, why they buried it, or when.

"It looks like a collection of trophies, but it is impossible to say if the hoard was the spoils from a single battle or a long and highly successful military career," he said.

More work will help determine how the hoard came to be buried in the field, Leahy said.

Many of the objects are inlaid with garnets, which Leahy called "stunning" and "as good as it gets." The filigree on the items is "incredible," he said.
Some are decorated in an Anglo-Saxon style consisting of strange animals intertwined with each other. That decoration appears on what is believed to be the cheek-piece of a helmet, decorated with a frieze of running, interlaced animals.

A strip of gold bearing a Biblical inscription in Latin is one of the most significant and controversial finds, Staffordshire Council said. One e xp ert believes the lettering dates from the 7th or early 8th centuries, but another is sure it dates from the 8th or 9th centuries.

The inscription, misspelled in places, is probably from the Book of Numbers and reads: "Surge domine et dissipentur inimici tui et fugiant qui oderunt te a facie tua," or "Rise up, o Lord, and may thy enemies be dispersed, and let them that hate thee, flee from before thy face."

Regardless of the exact date, the hoard is certainly from a period of great turmoil, when kingdoms with tribal loyalties battled each other in a state of perpetual warfare, e xp erts say.

The land was also split along religious lines. Christianity was the principal religion, having gained ground at the e xp ense of local pagan forms of worship, e xp erts said.

At least two crosses are among the items in the hoard. The largest is intact, though it has been folded, possibly to make it fit into a small space prior to burial, Staffordshire Council said.

The folding may mean it was buried by pagans who had little respect for the Christian symbol, but it may have also been done by Christians who had taken it from someone else's shrine, e xp erts said.

The hoard will likely help rewrite history, e xp erts said.

"Earlier finds will be looked at in the context of what we find amongst this mass of material," Leahy said.

Said Leslie Webster, the former keeper of the Department of Prehistory and Europe at the British Museum, "This is going to alter our perceptions of Anglo-Saxon England."

Excavation of the field where the hoard was found is now complete, and all items that were found are being held at the Birmingham Museum and Art Gallery. The most important objects will go on exhibit from Friday until October 13, after which they will go to the British Museum in London for valuation.

Once the items have been valued, Staffordshire Council said it hopes a selection of the pieces can go on temporary display at the Potteries Museum and Art Gallery in Stoke-on-Trent.

Once the hoard is sold, the market value of the find will go to Herbert and the owner of the field where the hoard was discovered. The pair have agreed to split the amount.
Some people have all the luck. When my lot was plowed prior to building my house, all I found were cobbles of granite and so forth.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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