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Responding to a question: Dagor Dagorath is, as one person put it, Armageddon. In earlier drafts of the Silmarillion, Tolkien had a Second Prophecy of Mandos (the first being, hey Noldor, if you leave, you're going to regret it in a big way) that foretold some of the events of the Last Battle. Most interesting was that Turin, the mortal who was most wronged by Morgoth, would return and kill Morgoth, ending his existence finally and completely. Prior to that would be Morgoth's return into the world, destroying the Sun and Moon in the process and casting the world into shadow. At some point Tolkien essentially discarded Dagor Dagorath from the main thread of the mythology, but references to it remained in places.

Regarding what mortals await in the Halls of Mandos: they only wait there a short time, reflecting on their newly-ended mortal existence. They then pass out of the Circles of the World. It is said that humans would join with the Valar and Maiar in the second Music of the Ainur before the throne of Iluvatar, which presumably would be after Dagor Dagorath. Whether they would participate in Dagor Dagorath is not known, other than Turin, of course. The fate of the Elves, however, was not revealed. They are bound to the Earth, hence their reincarnation if they die or are killed. One might theorize that since they are so bound to the Earth, they will die when/if the World is destroyed in the last battle. However, I don't think Tolkien would have written his mythology so that the Elves, which were his fair-haired children, so to speak, would get such a bum deal.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

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The Dagor Dagorath imples that Arda will be remade. As to whether that actually means the world is destroyed first is quite open to one's interpretation. Personally, I don't think that is what Tolkien meant, and thus the elves wouldn't all suddenly croak once Morgoth returned. The battle itself would be akin to the War of the Wrath on an even more massive scale (like the wars of the powers before the elves came,) and that, coupled with Morgoth's initial assault and the destruction of the sun and the moon is what likely would cause cataclysmic changes for the world. The elves, like everyone else, would undoubtedly suffer heavy losses, but I think their ultimate fate would remain unchanged, or perhaps they would be allowed to join the secondborn beyond the circles of the world.

Here's an interesting question... since the Sun and the Moon are essentially vessels guided across the skies by two Maiar, Arien and Tilion, would Morgoth's destruction of these mean that those Maiar would be slain? Would a Vala actually have the power to kill a Maia? I don't think that any Maia ever died in any of Tolkien's tales. Sure we have famous examples like the Balrogs, and Sauron, but it is e xp lained that even they are not dead, they simply will never be able to resume form again.

Saruman's death seems to imply that the Valar pass some form of judgment upon the death of a Maia's physical form. Saruman is denied and banished, while Gandalf gets reincarnated. However, as far as the really bad guys go, it seems their choices in life automatically bypass this possible reprieve, otherwise Sauron would never have recovered from the first time his body was destroyed. Looks like the Valar had no say there, and that a Maia's final fate was tied to their allegiance in life. What do you guys think?
Last edited by Valkrist on Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Spelling

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When I mentioned the Balrogs and Sauron dying, I meant that in the sense that I refer to later, that of their physical forms being slain and them not being able to resume any kind of shape ever again.

As for them going into the Void, I'm not sure that is correct since Tolkien never e xp lained that, at least that I know of. Morgoth went into the Void, but he wasn't slain, he was captured, and he was physically sent there as a form of exile. Cutting Morgoth off from Arda was the best and only thing the Valar could do to subdue him because they were taking away his source of power forever (what was left of it.) Read History of Middle-earth's "Morgoth's Ring" by Tolkien, if you don't know what I mean. In short, he poured all of his power and malice into the bones of Arda, much as Sauron later did with his One Ring, so in essence the world became Morgoth's Ring. Seal Morgoth in the Void and out of touch with his power in Arda, and he cannot do a thing. One can only speculate where he would eventually regain enough power to enter the world and make war again. Perhaps even on his own and cut off from everything else, a Vala of his might would eventually recharge his batteries, but Tolkien abandoned the concept of the Dagor Dagorath so we will never know.

With the Balrogs, Sauron, and Saruman, it is quite likely their powerless essence simply remains in Arda, unable to do anything but rage in impotence at their final fate.

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

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Valkrist wrote:Here's an interesting question... since the Sun and the Moon are essentially vessels guided across the skies by two Maiar, Arien and Tilion, would Morgoth's destruction of these mean that those Maiar would be slain? Would a Vala actually have the power to kill a Maia? I don't think that any Maia ever died in any of Tolkien's tales. Sure we have famous examples like the Balrogs, and Sauron, but it is e xp lained that even they are not dead, they simply will never be able to resume form again.

Tolkien never seemed to conclusively address the question of whether an Ainu could totally die or not (not counting their physical form). There is the reference to Turin killing Morgoth, but since that was in a discarded storyline, it can't be considered canonical or "real." But in the context of your question, it's possible that the two Maiar would simply flee the scene, and Morgoth would destroy the physical vessels that housed the last fruit and bloom of the Two Trees.

Moreover, in one of his Letters, Tolkien supports a thesis made by someone on UC forums a couple of weeks ago, that the Witchking did not actually die. It was in one of the letters I quoted yesterday, where Tolkien discussed the potential encounter between Frodo and the Nazgul at the Cracks of Doom. Tolkien referred to the Eight and as a footnote e xp lained "the Witchking having been reduced to impotence." That implies that tho his physical form was destroyed, he did not pass into the West to Mandos and thence outward, like the mortal man he was, but remained trapped in the World, like the Dead prior to Aragorn's release of them.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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That's an interesting thesis and one which I have long supported myself. The only thing that does not seem to jive completely is Eowyn's prophecy, which seems to imply very clearly that she would send the WK to his final end, not simply a destruction of his physical form. I'm sure we could argue what it really means either way... but what I truly believe is that even if the WK's spirit survived the battle with Eowyn, his spirit was most assuredly destroyed once the Ring went into the fire. Remember that it was made clear several times that all that was wrought with that ring would be totally undone once it was destroyed... this included Sauron's power, Barad-dur, the powers of the other rings, and the Nazgul, whose existence was tied to their own rings and the power of the One. Without the One to support their hold on Middle-earth, their spirits would be destroyed for good.

What the final fate of those spirits might have been, that is arguable, but as you said, very unlikely they could go to Mandos and likely were doomed to wander forever as essentially nothing.

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

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It is quite possible, GTW, that those Ainu that were captured at the same time as Morgoth would have been banished alongside him, though I don't imagine there were any left. The only ones of note that Tolkien ever mentioned were the Balrogs, and aside from those that may have 'died' during the conflict, like Gothmog, we are told that the others fled the ruin of Beleriand and eluded capture, like Sauron, or escaped to hide in the deep places of the earth, like the Balrog of Moria. With all that in consideration, it is my view that Morgoth was essentially abandoned by all his servants in the end, and captured alone.

Perhaps when his power was sufficient to throw down the Doors of Night and return from the Void, then it might be possible to gather to himself all the spirits of his former allies and give them substance again to fight in the final battle at his side, including Sauron. However, this again brings into question as to how Morgoth could gather such might in the Void, and it becomes more clear why Tolkien eventually discarded the idea: it is simply very problematic.

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How many Istari came to Middle-Earth, I think I read there were 5. What colors were there, I know there are white, grey, and blue. Do these colors signify rank, or power. Well I know Gandalf was more powerful white than gray, so I assume the color does correlate with power. What about blue and the other colors, are those the lower ranks?
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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The names of the blue wizards, Alatar and Pallando, come from Unfinished Tales pg.393-4. The colours were Saruman the White, Gandalf the Grey, Radagast the Brown, and Alatar and Pallando the Blue. Not sure what the hierarchy of colours is meant to represent, but I suspect it has something to do with the respective Vala each one of them served initially. Once Gandalf replaces Saruman as head of he order, he becomes the White.

Note also that the Istari were meant to be paired off together in their mission, but Varda, claiming that Gandalf should not be third, was granted independent status and thus came alone. Here is a breakdown of the order and their rank in relation to one another:

Name Colour Patron Vala Vala's Association

Saruman White Aulë Non-living earth (crafts)
Gandalf Grey Manwë Air (sky, wisdom, empathy)
Alatar Blue Oromë Nature (kelvar, forests)
Pallando Blue Mandos Earth (passing, souls)
Radagast Brown Yavanna Living earth (Olvar)

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Actually, there is another passage (can't remember the book for the life of me,) that gives two alternate names for the Blue Wizards. Each wizard had original names in Quenya: Saruman is Curumo, Gandalf is Olorin, and Radagast is Aiwendil. Once in Middle-earth, they adopted or were given the names we know them more commonly by. Alatar and Pallando are also Quenya names, but Tolkien tells us what their Middle-earth names were also.... one translated to Darkness Slayer, and the other to East-something... blah... wish I could remember the names and the passage exactly.

Anyone? :confused:

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Valkrist wrote:Ok... found something. The names were Morinehtar (Alatar) and Romestamo (Pallando.)

Check out this link and read some very interesting history on the two Blue Wizards:

http://www.lotrlibrary.com/agesofarda/bluewizards.asp

Well, that was interesting. One of these days I'm going to have to reread the History series...I had no memory of the Blue Wizards being mentioned in there.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Although Gandalf the White was allowed to use more power than Gandalf the Grey, he still wasn't allow to just blow Sauron's forces off the map. On the other hand, with no Rohirrim arrival to occupy the WK and his orcs, just matching the WK blow for blow till he got tired and went away may not have been enough. That's a very good question!
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I dont wanna sound sexist, but it always gets me when they women in the movie say "I am know man" in response to the "No man can blah blah" comment. As in the witchking/eowyn incident. I guess i never take that to mean man as in male, but man as in mankind. i am not trying to diss Tolkien's work, but it is an all too common theme. Especially in a story like LOTR, when there are more races than man (hobbits, elves, dwarves etc). I know Eowyn was always put down because she was a women and was never allowed to fight, but i always hate the sarcastic comments right before killing the badguy (it is so horror movie-ish). I think it would have been cool for Merry to kill the Witchking. He was right there, and he isnt a man, but a hobbit, and would have been fitting for him to kill the WK after he says "No man can kill me".

Didnt mean to sound like a rant, but just thought I would comment.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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IF PJ had but bothered to give us a little background on the prophecy that dealt with the WK's final fate, then the line as delivered by Eowyn in the movie would not have been so jarring and hoakey-sounding. This isn't to create more book vs movie argument crap, but PJ really screwed up the dialogue for that scene and oversimplified it way too much.

GTW, I have to take issue with your comment on Gandalf being able to walk into Barad-dur and wipe the floor with Sauron. I'm sorry, but I don't believe that is true at all. Sauron was the mightiest, most cunning, and most resourceful Maia in the history of Arda, and even without the power of the Ring and diminished as he was by the end of the Third Age, he was still an awesome force to be reckoned with. Olorin (Gandalf) the Maia's power lay not in physical might but in his wisdom and ability to kindle hope in the hearts of those he was sent to counsel and aid. His powers were vastly different than Sauron's. While Gandalf was certainly able to handle himself in a fight, he would have been no match for the Dark Lord. In a physical confrontation, I think only Eonwë, Manwë's herald, would have been able to do what you said out of all the Maiar.

Regarding the outcome of a protracted fight with the Witch-king, that's a tough call actually. We don't know the exact details of what happened at Weathertop, only that Gandalf managed to face off against and evade five Nazgul, one of them being the WK. It was by no means a battle that was fought to a decisive conclusion because the Nazgul were still around a few days later to attack Frodo. If Gandalf had destroyed them, it would have taken them a long time to return from Mordor, and it wouldn't have been possiblefor them to be back in time to attack the hobbits only days later. At the Gates of Minas Tririth, the stakes were much higher and the opponents slightly different. Gandalf, now the White, wielded considerably more power than before but was still e xp ressely forbidden to fully unleash it. This handicap would make him a near-even match for the Witch-king, who stood now also at the height of his power (this is my hour!) and fully revealed, unfettered by Sauron's previous orders to keep a low profile and not reveal himself fully (as the Nazgul were during the hunt for the Ring.)

Ultimately, I think Gandalf would prevail, but only in the sense that he would drive the Witch-king back, matching him power for power. The Witch-king was bound by prophecy and Gandalf would not be able to kill him.

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

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Being a non-book reader, I have a question. Did the Witchking and Gandalf have that same confrontation and Witchking break his staff that easily or even at all?


Also, not ever reading the book, like I posted before, I for one was confused with the physical form of Sauron. Most people agree that the "Eye of Sauron" was a metaphor. Some may say that PJ making it like he did was a little cooky. I kinda liked it... it gave something to focus on for Sauron's power imo.

I had another thought about Sauron's physical form. Could it be possible that Sauron was in physical form, but needed the ring to be awoken. Sort of like a ancient power or sometimes they do this type of thing with vampires. I thought this would be an interesting perspective, but I might be the only one.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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I knew the eye was a metaphor. I believe, when you read a book, you make your own mental pictures (duh) but when watching a movie, I think PJ did a good job of visually representing the eye of sauron with something tangible, even though it was really a metaphor.

I do plan on reading the books this summer when i have some uninterrupted time. right now, if i read anything it is for school. its hard to read for pleasure when you have research papers and other school books to read.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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The Eye of Sauron is what people perceived in their mind's eye when confronted directly by Sauron. Basically an image that he projected inside of you. He did have physical form otherwise. PJ took this too literally and actually made the flaming eye be Sauron's physical representation, which is glaringly incorrect.

GTW, the powers of Narya were a mirror for Gandalf's own. That ability to give hope was magnified through the power of the ring, yes, but it was something that Gandalf was already able to do well on his own. Each Maia had powers related to their basic thematic nature, and Gandalf's wisdom made him excel at giving counsel and hope. That is why Manwë and Varda selected him, and that is why Cirdan gave him Narya, recognizing instantly his innate power, and that Narya would best serve to enhance his powers.

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I thought maybe for a topic, we could talk about which character(s) we like the best and why (some are obvious) and our favorite sub-plots and themes of the movies and book (we all know the main plot of the ring) or favorite scenes from the movie/book... its kinda a big topic, but i thought it would be fun to talk about what our favorite things are and to share with everyone else.

My favorite character is of course Aragorn, but other than him, I like Pippin the best.
The sub-theme I liked best about the movie was people finding courage within themselves, especially the hobbits. These 4 hobbits, all live pleasent lives in the Shire but Frodo, one of the smallest at the council of elrond decides to take the ring to Mordor himself, at the time he did not know others would follow. Merry and Pippin join, at this time naively, i believe. Through their e xp eriences, the hobbits become some of the strongest (not physically, of course) characters. I especially love the scene at the Black Gates, when Aragorn says "For Frodo" and after him, Merry and Pippin are the first to follow and run after him. The self sacrifice they were prepared to make is very powerful, they accepted death just to help their friend (whom they didnt even know was still alive anyway).

Another thing I liked in the movie was how people from the different races threw out their stereotypical beliefs. Gimli and Legolas first hated each other, but became the best of friends. Also, the hobbits go from being treated like hobbits to being soldiers (Merry and Pippin for sure).

Aragorn, I believe, strengthened internally as well. He finally accepted his role as king, something I believe he was scared of at the beginning. (I am fixing this part, before i am misunderstood)... that was part of the movie, not the book, in the book Aragorn hasnt reclaimed the throne yet, but he has acknowledged the fact and is the leader of the Northern Dunedain.

Those are just a few of my opinions to get the ball rolling.

You gotta admit, that scene with the hobbits running to the black gates before anyone else is touching... it would take ice cold blood, not to get a little tingly in the emotion department watching it.
Last edited by BladeCollector on Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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This goes way back in the thread
But did not Turin escape the fate of men??
heres the quote
"Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men. "

Ok... not quite sure what you're getting at here. You speak of Turin, yet your quote refers to Tuor. What I said is that no one in Valinor, not even the Valar, had the power to alter the fate of the second-born. Only Eru could do that. If Turin was to come back in the Dagor Dagorath, that would have to be by the grace of Illuvatar, not anything else. Same goes for Tuor or any other mortal that received some special reprieve... only Eru could change that. Eru does not dwell in Valinor, he dwells in the Timeless Halls beyond the Void, so that is why I said that going to Valinor has nothing to do with achieving immortality. Is that more clear?

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