Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

57
i wouldnt say the way PJ did the movies was LOTR for dummies. I think if he would have made the books into the movies, exactly... he would still be be in principle photography.


I think I have that site you are referring to gilgalad-2490, i remember those lines exactly, as i read them last night.

I do have a question, being an ignorant, non-bookreader. I read that Tolkien had Sauron as a physical being, not a big eye as PJ had in the movie. My question is, did the book ever have Sauron in it as a physical being, other than that prologue part. did the book "show" sauron, (its a book, it cant "show" him, but you get what i am saying).

I liked the whole eye, but not reading the book, i was always confused about, how is sauron gonna hold the ring if he is an eye. or if they bring him the ring, does the eye turn into sauron, or is sauron in barad-dur and the eye is just a being ring finding parascope?
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

63
I woulda liked to have seen Sauron get the ring back... woulda made a helluva battle at the end... coulda been another book/movie. Sauron wearing the ring against the whole main cast... sauron fighting them off and then off corse the good guys win... maybe gollum runs in and bites saurons finger off and legolas pops him with an arrow (ok so the last part was a lame attempt at humor).
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

69
I am not an e xp ert, but i think that the Elves caught onto Sauron and took their rings off, and the nine men were corrupted and the dwarves with the rings are immune to his power. the elvish rings were only worn after sauron was defeated. so, for instance, Sauron knew Frodo was in Mordor, and captured him and took the ring... the 3 people holding the elvish rings would not know at that moment, and so they wouldnt have any opportunity to take the rings off.

you beat me to it Gandalf
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

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RE: Who will see the Undying Lands? (Gandalf/Pippin discussion during the siege): Although only Elves will go to live there, humans will see it too. Tolkien tells that when humans die, their souls pass to Valinor, to the Halls of Mandos, for a time of reflection, then they pass west on out of the World. So humans would see Valinor, perhaps in exactly the same fashion described by Gandalf. I don't know why it should look different to a flying soul than it would for a living Elf on a ship. As far as I know, Tolkien never directly discussed the metaphysical wherefores of hobbits, but since most people consider them a branch of humankind, presumably they would have the same death e xp erience. I think we need to extend the same death e xp erience to Dwarves also. Tho not created by Iluvatar, they were given their souls by him, and since only Elves will live in the West, the Dwarves have to go somewhere.... I suspect they pass beyond the Circles of the World, just as humans do. Regarding the Encyclopedia's comment about Gandalf's forgetfulness of the the various immortal beings in Middle-earth, ultimately they will all take the same path, at least as far as Mandos. Except for ones like Saruman and Sauron, who are banished, as evidence by their spirits being blown away by a wind from the West. And I suppose ghosts, lost souls. So, Gandalf's comment in the movie is, to me, essentially correct as a general rule, if a little misleading to the uninitiated relative to his immortality. And even that can be forgiven, since he did "die" once already and take that path. In any case, the scene played very well and managed to incorporate some very beautiful lines from the book. My eyes filled with tears the first time I saw it (and several times after!). So although I usually find the Encyclopedia of Arda a good resource, I think the author of that segment was all wet.

RE: Sauron's physical form in the Third Age. Well, we've discussed that quite a bit on the forums, and I remain of the firm opinion that he had a physical, humanoid body. Gollum saw him and reported the he had only nine fingers. Yes, that could be a metaphorical reference to the Nine Ringwraiths, but I never got that impression. I can't imagine Gollum taking such a metaphorical flight reminiscing about his capture and torture. The Eye is used extensively to represent Sauron, but I think that's just a metaphor for Sauron's search for the Ring. Without the Ring, Sauron felt greatly weakened and took a very cautious strategy throughout the Third Age, preferring to use intermediaries like the Witchrealm of Angmar, the Wainriders, and so forth to weaken Gondor and its allies without provoking a massive retaliation against Sauron himself before he'd adequately rebuilt his own military. Tolkien also uses the White Hand extensively to refer to Saruman. Because we see Saruman, we don't conclude he's just a big white hand. Because we generally don't see Sauron directly, some misinterpret the Eye as Sauron's actual form. Tolkien simply felt (quite accurately) that by not showing Sauron, our minds would imagine him to be far more terrifying than anything Tolkien could describe. Personally, I find the flaming eye a little silly as a metaphor, and way over the top silly as an actual entity. PJ admitted as much himself when he discussed his difficulties in trying to decide how to depict Sauron. He joked about a suit of armor, and when you lift the visor, there's just a big eyeball in it, like something out of Monty Python.

A further though on Morgoth and Sauron: much of what we might credit to Morgoth during the First Age was largely the work of Sauron, as Morgoth retreated to the deepest level of Angband to sulk and left the running of the War to Sauron.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

87
I am assuming that Frodo went alone, well Sam too, was to sneak into Mordor, while everyone else went to search for Merry and Pippin and then in turn fought the battles and were distracting Sauron. I guess I would have lost, because after losing a member (Boromir), actually at the time they thought they lost 2 (Gandalf), I would want to stay together. Merry and Pippin getting caught by the Uruks may have given the fellowship some time, the Uruks thought one of them was the right halfling, I dont think they knew how many were around. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli could have given Frodo some much needed protection. Gollum could have easily got the ring, and they were captured by Faramir, which didnt turn out "that" bad, it only took them off course a few days, and then Shelob wouldnt have got Frodo. They could have done this, all while MErry and Pippin were capture, because no harm was going to be done to them, until they found out they didnt have the ring, so Frodo and Co. would have to work kinda fast.

Well, that is a little thought that popped into my head, it woulda made a less dramatic movie probably, but hey, this is a what if thread sort of, and this was a what if situation :)
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

96
defyitall wrote:Here's a new discussion:

PJ and co. bring this up in the commentaries and I have always liked talking about it. It interested me when I first read the books.

Why couldn't the Eagles have flown Frodo and the Ring to Mt. Doom?

or for that matter, doesn't it seem like there would have been a better strategy to get to Mordor than walking there?

I know it adds more drama to the book but just for discussion's sake, anyone else ever think about that?

Tolkien discussed this very topic somewhat in the book "Letters of JRR Tolkien". (That's a good book to read for insights into Tolkien's world and the Man himself--it's the closest any of us will ever get to knowing him.) It was in regard to movie treatments that had the Fellowship flying on eagles most of the time. He said, "The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'." I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness." What he's getting at is that they would ruin the storytelling if you always had them at your beck and call. Also, I think the reasons that people in this thread have proposed of why they couldn't be used are very good.

Touching again briefly on Sauron's physical form, and harking back to a discussion on a different thread as to why Sauron didn't come in person when he perceived the Ring was in the Mountain.... On pp. 331-332 of "Letters" (original Houghton-Mifflin harcover edition), he says -- and I'm going to paraphrase broadly -- that the Ringwraiths would probably have been enough under Frodo's control thru the Ring that they couldn't seize him directly if he commanded them not to, but that they would have tried to keep him complacent and occupied until Sauron came in person. And then poor old Frodo would have been in a world of hurt. He goes on to say, "Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human statue, but not gigantic." He goes on to speculate how the contest would have played out if someone other than Frodo were wearing the Ring when Sauron arrived. No mortal could have defeated Sauron. Pretty much only one of the bearers of the Three could have defeated Sauron, or one of the the other Maiar (say, Saruman). Tolkien speculated that being defeated in this way would have had the same effect as the Ring's destruction--he could no longer draw on its power, and would have been banished. He also says Gandalf would have been a more terrible Dark Lord than Sauron--he'd have still been trying to do good, but in a sanctimonious pompous way that would make you detest good.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

97
This is quoted from a website dedicated to LOTR about the "Eye of Sauron"...



"From the highest tower ofBarad-dûr,Sauronkept an unceasing watch on the lands and kingdoms ofMiddle-earth. The 'Eye ofSauron' is a reference to this unsleeping vigilance"

I understand this to mean that during the time of LOTR, Sauron was in physical form and the eye of sauron was just a figure of speech that sauron was always watching and looking for the ring and would not stop until he had the ring, or the ring was destroyed.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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