Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1051
I think chances of mining more movie material from the LOTR appendices for a movie or two are more likely that anything ever happening with Sil in my lifetime. The Hobbit movies generated around 2.9 billion in sales, about the same as LOTR. I'm sure WB is looking at anything and everything from the appendices that could possibly be movie material.
KRDS

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1052
Nasnandos wrote:I think chances of mining more movie material from the LOTR appendices for a movie or two are more likely that anything ever happening with Sil in my lifetime. The Hobbit movies generated around 2.9 billion in sales, about the same as LOTR. I'm sure WB is looking at anything and everything from the appendices that could possibly be movie material.
I can't decide if that instills in me a joyous hope , or a ghastly fear.....

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1054
I'd rather it all be kept in the pages of the books at this point. I agree with Kit that the Sil coming to the screen is on the impossible side of unlikely, but I also feel that Tolkien's two major stories have already been adapted, well enough for the most part, and I hope that's where it ends. Having Middle-earth become exploited into some grand, ongoing franchise like the MCU, is a revolting thought.
This Space for Rent

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1055
Having finished Return of the King, I've started dipping back into the Unfinished Tales. Last time I read this I cut through the red tape to "get to the action". Taking greater care to read and understand the editor's notes, I have increased my respect for the incredibly diligent work of Christopher Tolkien. Previously I really only read enough of the liner notes to know what he did and why he did it, but I missed a lot of the finer points of capturing the essence of the stories and why some differ in tone from others. Aftwr this I might even take another dive into the Histories of Middle Earth. :thumbs_up
"Remember, the force will be with you, always."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1057
Some sad news to pass along. Just heard from a few Tolkien friends that Jef Murray passed away, apparent heart attack.

Having met Jef and his wife Lorraine Grace Murray several times at the "Long Expected Party" gatherings, I'm at a loss for words right now.

My condolences to Lorraine and to Jef's family.
This day does not belong to one man but to all.
Let us together rebuild this world that we may
share in the days of peace.

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1060
So... not sure where fully to share this but:

EPIC RAP BATTLES OF HISTORY just did JRRT vs GRRM in their newest battle.

CAUTION! Language is of the mature level (you know, it is a rap battle), but is still hilarious!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAAp_luluo0
"I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend."

Decide what to defend your castle with at www.castlekon.com

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1066
Olorin wrote:Supposedly original alternate casting of LOTR.

http://moviepilot.com/posts/3899505

I can't imagine Vin Diesel playing Aragorn!
And you CAN imagine Cage playing him?????

Actually some of the alternates would I, think, have been OK.

Neeson might have made a creditable Boromir... I think McCoy would have made a fine Bilbo, and Bowie would have been (imo) preferable to Weaving.
And did you notice a resemblance (at least in the pic) of Bowie to Weaving?

Because I read the books several times before seeing the movies, I had already pictured in my mind how the characters would look.

It is a credit to their acting that I now see certain movie characters (but not all) when I read the stories.

The only characters I still don't see in my mind's eye, even with more than a dozen re-readings are:
Frodo,
Aragorn
Arwen
Elrond
Faramir
Denethor

They just don't look the part to me, although some are not so far off the mark as others.
All the other characters look similar (or close enough) to what I imagined during my initial reading .

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1068
In all honesty, as fine as all the actors were, I don't picture any of them when I read the books. I'm not sure why that is; I think it's just one of my idiosyncrasies.

I think Bowie would have been interesting as Elrond. Normally I'm dubious about the idea of musicians as actors, but recently I saw The Hunger, in which Bowie played an ancient vampire's consort (much to his eventual—and horrific—undoing). I thought he did a fine job. And just imagine, if Bowie had played a role in the movie, they would have almost certainly let him sing a song on the soundtrack.

Getting back to the article, the only one of these previous casting wishes PJ will cop it is Stuart Townsend as Aragorn, and only because he's on film acting the part. PJ denies ever having considered anyone else for any of the roles, in spite of Sean Connery's off-quoted reason for turning down Gandalf. And why does he make these denials? Who knows? Just one of his idiosyncrasies, I guess.

I'm not one to dwell on any of the casting choices (though Day-Lewis would have ruled, pardon the expression, as Aragorn). I think everyone did a splendid job. And because of these movies, I fell in love with Ian McKellen as an actor. What a performance! Of course, I would have also known him from X-Men, but seeing him as Gandalf sealed the deal. Ian Holm was pure delight as Bilbo, a small but great role for an extraordinarily talented actor. And Christopher Lee's Saruman was the pinnacle of probably the longest career in cinema history.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1074
Fingolfin wrote:I am beyond excited for the Beren and Luthien book to make its way to me. And good thing I came here to catch up on news because, like pretty much everything else, I forgot about it in the heat of my fall semester. :O Anyone placed a preorder yet?
Will wait until it's been out a while, and then buy it for (I am hoping) not more than $15

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1075
It would be hard for me to estimate how many times I've watched FOTR. Suffice it to say, it would be oodles. However, I spotted something this evening while watching it that I'd never noticed before. In the scene where Gandalf reads from the Scroll of Isildur and it shows the fire writing on the Ring fading away, as it fades away for a moment you can see a reflection of Isildur's face in the surface of the Ring. I thought that was very cool!

And speaking of FOTR, we are now at the 15th anniversary of its release. That's just so hard to believe.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1076
Olorin wrote:It would be hard for me to estimate how many times I've watched FOTR. Suffice it to say, it would be oodles. However, I spotted something this evening while watching it that I'd never noticed before. In the scene where Gandalf reads from the Scroll of Isildur and it shows the fire writing on the Ring fading away, as it fades away for a moment you can see a reflection of Isildur's face in the surface of the Ring. I thought that was very cool!

And speaking of FOTR, we are now at the 15th anniversary of its release. That's just so hard to believe.

Oh, that is so very cool to know! Now I'll have to go watch that scene again....(and if you've watched FOTR "oodles" of times, I've watched it oodles of times cubed. :laugh: )

omg...15 years ago!...It doesn't seem like yesterday, but it does seem like it was maybe 4-5 years ago. But certainly not 15!...Oh, that is just so....depressing. :-p

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1079
Does anyone have a copy of the Lord of the Rings issue of Vanity Fair? I'm struggling to find photos and information about the photographer and what issue it was featured in. Did anyone here pick it up when it was released?

EDIT: Never mind, I found the photographer :P
FURTHER EDIT: If anyone else is interested the photographer is Hugh Stewart. Now I just need to find some decent scans of the editorial.

On another note: I was flicking through the movie guides for the Hobbit and became very nostalgic. I miss the anticipation that came with waiting to go back to Middle Earth again. I hope one day we'll get to see the Silmarillion as a movie series - but that seems very unlikely at this point.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1080
Lindir wrote: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:29 pm Does anyone have a copy of the Lord of the Rings issue of Vanity Fair? I'm struggling to find photos and information about the photographer and what issue it was featured in. Did anyone here pick it up when it was released?

EDIT: Never mind, I found the photographer :P
FURTHER EDIT: If anyone else is interested the photographer is Hugh Stewart. Now I just need to find some decent scans of the editorial.

On another note: I was flicking through the movie guides for the Hobbit and became very nostalgic. I miss the anticipation that came with waiting to go back to Middle Earth again. I hope one day we'll get to see the Silmarillion as a movie series - but that seems very unlikely at this point.
I'm sure we all share that sentiment. longing for anticipation. I can't promise you Middle-earth, BUT....

If you've never seen Blade Runner, see it immediately. Then go see the new one this weekend.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1082
Valkrist wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:17 pm...As for DG, your news is still disappointing seeing as Radagast and the sleigh hold no appeal for me and you mention it could potentially be the last piece they do. I would consider the Brown Wizard on his own but i found the bunny sleigh too whimsical and more at home in the Narnia series than Tolkien's world (yes, foxes that speak notwithstanding.) .... :'(
Since I had already given up on the Hobbit even as I was watching it, there were some things I could just sit back and enjoy, and the bunny sleigh was one.
I actually laughed out loud when Radagast replied to Gandalf...if I remember correctly his delivery was pitch perfect.

Radagast: I'll draw them off.
Gandalf: These are Gundabad wargs! They will outrun you!
Radagast: These are Rhosgobel rabbits! I'd like to see them try!

:laugh:

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1083
Definitely had its level of cuteness (I love rabbits!) but it just felt out of place for me and detracted from the seriousness and tension onscreen. At any rate, Radagast was mostly a comedic buffoon played for cheap laughs so I guess the sleigh plays into that. PJ got some of character's eccentricity just right, and then other bits of him were just plain eye-rolling silly. Not exactly the level of dignity one would expect from one of the Maiar. :rolleye:
This Space for Rent

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1084
Valkrist wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:36 pm Definitely had its level of cuteness (I love rabbits!) but it just felt out of place for me and detracted from the seriousness and tension onscreen. At any rate, Radagast was mostly a comedic buffoon played for cheap laughs so I guess the sleigh plays into that. PJ got some of character's eccentricity just right, and then other bits of him were just plain eye-rolling silly. Not exactly the level of dignity one would expect from one of the Maiar. :rolleye:
Before I thoroughly hijack this thread, Val, you may want to move it to the "Pure Middle Earth " forum.
Your statement about the dignity of the Maiar as represented by Radagast, reminded me of something.

Have you ever read the essay "Who is Tom Bombadil?", by Gene Hargrove?
http://www.mi.imati.cnr.it/marco/Who_is ... mbadil.htm

My point here is that if Hargrove is right that Tom is actually Aule, a Valar, (and he sets forth some pretty convincing arguments) I can't imagine anyone who demonstrates more [apparent] silliness than Tom Bombadil. The operative word is 'apparent'.

There is a certain solemn dignity and rhythm and pattern to his jumping about and cadenced speech, much like in a 'called' dance , such as a square dance.
So, just saying that a Maiar may possess a "silly dignity" that is entirely appropriate to the human persona he has assumed.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1085
Posts moved. Now we can rope Olorin into the discussion. :club:

Very cool essay, but I am not convinced.

The question of Tom's nature is one the greatest enduring mysteries of that book, and one that I've always felt we're probably better off not knowing the answer to, and the author of the article says as much. Some have said he represents Tolkien himself, but were he alive today, I think he would firmly deny it. I don't think it is Aule either. Yes, the arguments made are good, but they can just as easily be counter-argued. Mere supposition (although well-thought out) at best. Tolkien even goes to say that even in the First Age, with the exception of Ulmo from time to time, Orome was the only Vala that still bothered to return to Middle-earth (not counting Melkor.) With everything we are told about Aule in Tolkien's works, I never even thought once that Tom somehow fir the bill, or vice versa. Especially late into the Third Age, with Valinor long removed from the circles of the world, I find it hard to reconcile the though of the Smith, a being of forges, crafting, and shaping, mucking about in a forest, singing and dancing. I also can't fathom why one of the Valar would just sit around in Middle-earth and watch unconcernedly as two of his most powerful and former servants ran roughshod all over the place, enslaving and killing at will.

I am content believing that:

A) He is indeed a Maia gone native. The writer of the essay's argument in dispelling this is very weak. The Maiar were numerous and only very few among them are named and their areas of concern and power mentioned. Tom could have easily been one of the very first to enter Ea and scampered off to a twilit Middle-earth and away from those bossy Valar to do his own thing.

B) He is a spirit from the Void, like Ungoliant, neither Valar nor Maiar, but some form of neutral being that perhaps lay outside of Illuvatar's Music, but snuck in there to do his own thing.

C) He just... is. He is the embodiment of incorruptible and unswayable neutrality, a harmonious mid-point to the good of the Valar and the evil of Morgoth.
This Space for Rent

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1087
Well it was an interesting essay but ultimately not very convincing. The author puts together 2 and 2 and gets 157. Yes, it's true that some of the Ainur have greater affinity to the world and its peoples than others, but I would find it very hard to believe that in the Third Age, with the Valar withdrawn to their own realm for millennia and the War of the Ring brewing in Middle-earth, that any of them would be living in Middle-earth, especially in such a morally questionable place as the Old Forest. If a Vala lived nearby, would he permit Old Man Willow to cast his pall of deceit and malice over the Forest?

At the crux of this quandary is the question of what beings in Tolkien's cosmos have the kind of power displayed by Tom. Tolkien himself shot down the theory that Tom was God Himself, Eru Iluvatar. What other beings did Eru create with a Tom level of power, enough power not to be overpowered by the Ring, indeed, enough to make it disappear? One may suppose that the Valar might have such power, but as they are limited in number, it's hard to believe any of them could be spending a significant amount of time living in Middle-earth and not be noticed missing by Manwe. And obviously it isn't Melkor, as he has been cast out.

As Val pointed out, there are many Maiar, and it's possible that one or more of them entered Ea and never bound himself/herself to the service of any particular Vala, and instead went native. Other there other powerful spirits in existence that are not Eru or one of the Ainur? What was Ungoiliant? She also is a spirit from before the creation of Ea. These beings would ultimately have to have been creations of Eru. You know, technically the designations Vala and Maia are classifications given to the spirits who chose to go into the world to help fulfill its creation. They are essentially no different, and not necessarily any more powerful, than other spirits who did not dedicate themselves to fulfilling the Music. Tom could be one of them. He would technically not be a Vala or a Maia because he didn't sign up for the program, yet he would be of the same race. He could even have slipped in ahead of the Valar and Maiar, hence his claim about being in the world before the Dark Lord came from outside.

It's late and I'm tired and not sure I'm making a lot of sense. Is Tom Aule (or any other Vala)? No, I don't think so. Could he be another spirit of Valar power level? Sure. Ultimately, Tolkien chose never to answer this mystery. He may never have decided on an answer himself (witness the unanswered question of the origin of the Orcs), but I think he simply liked the presence of Tom for effect. His mystery is part of his charm and part of his purpose, and why ruin that by giving out the answer?
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1088
My friend, we are one mind on this.

One comment: all the beings that sprang from Eru's Music were called Ainur (I know that you know this,) and there was nothing before that. Only the ones that entered Ea during its creation were given the designation of Valar and Maiar, relative to the power they wielded. Kinda like management and staff. It is implied that many Ainur remained outside in the company of Eru. My theory is that Ungoliant was an Ainu on the level of power of a Vala or one of the more powerful Maiar, as was Tom; spirits that moved in early while the world was still in flux and chaos, and did not bother reporting to the Big Guy. They essentially followed their own path, unrestrained and unconcerned by Eru's plan. They were basically outside of his design, yet still a part of it, if that makes sense. We are only told of Melkor's discord at the very beginning, but it is quite possible that there were one or two other Ainur that were not inclined to follow orders very well. The ease with which Melkor later corrupts Sauron and the Balrogs bespeaks a certain level of autonomy and free will on the part of these beings, so it makes sense that Ungoliant, Tom, and Goldberry just decided to go it alone much earlier than that.

We shouldn't also forget that there were other, lesser spirits, possibly a level below even Maiar, beings like Thorondor, Carcharoth, Draugluin, Thuringwetil, Nahar, Huan, and the Eagles of Middle-earth and the Pelori. They were all Ainur in the end, but their statures clearly differed.
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Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1090
Olorin wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:57 am So, next question: what were the Barrow-wights? The books say that they were evil spirits sent by the Witch-king to inhabit the Barrow Downs. I suppose a this point I would assume them to be low-level Ainur.
That's another sticky question...

My initial assumption upon reading about them was that they were evil spirits under the control of the Witch-king. That is to say: the souls of deceased, corrupted men of Angmar, trapped in some form of 'undeath,' and bound to a powerful Nazgul who was unliving himself. He commanded these spirits to enter the barrows of the old Edain and Cardolani kings, and they animated the bones therein with a mockery of life, becoming Barrow-wights.

One could argue that this form of undeath doesn't have a place in Tolkien's writings because when men die, their souls are supposed to go off to the Halls of Mandos to await their fate. Yet, there are instances in the books where powerful enough curses or events could bind spirits to places in Middle-earth beyond death. The Dead Men of Dunharrow and the Corpse-candles of the Dead Marshes, for example. There were even superstitions about phantoms among the Rohirrim, wherefrom the term 'Dwimmerlaik' arose. Given these, I'm inclined to think that the Barrow-wights were not spirits in the sense of being low-level Ainur, like the Eagles, but rather whatever evil energy and presence remained behind upon the death of corrupted men, bound and subject to the Witch-king, who no doubt had learned many foul arts to do this sort of thing from his master, Sauron.

Just my theory.
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Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1091
And a good theory it is, one I could easily embrace. I don't have a problem with the whole "there's no room for ghosts in Tolkien's cosmology" angle, because as you point out there is at least one known example, the Dead Men. Beyond that, why should Middle-earth be different from our time, when religion assures us that the souls of the dead depart off to wherever, and yet some percentage linger instead of making the crossing...or so some people believe. I personally have never seen a ghost, yet I've talked to enough people who claim to have, and I have read enough about it, not to rule it out.

I always assumed the Corpse Candles simply to be swamp gas. They're certainly in the right environment. Also I assume the presence of the dead warriors below to be merely illusions created by Sauron. Is he not described in the Silmarillion as a master of illusion and deceits?
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1092
Yeah, the swamp gas and resulting light or flame could certainly be explained that way scientifically. This being a work of fantasy however, it is easy to speculate that there is some form of foul magic at work. The books only mention the dead faces beneath the water and the lights above, whereas PJ went as far as animating the corpses below the surface into horrendous apparitions with evil intent. Either way, they could either be illusions that Sauron placed there as a defense to one of the approaches to Mordor, or they are in fact undead creatures of some form, the drowned bodies of the dead that perished there during the Last Alliance and whose spirits are restless because their shallow graves were overtaken by marshland.
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Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1093
Good discussion.
I can't contribute because I don't have anywhere near the "Lore knowledge" and expertise that both of you have, but I always enjoy reading what you have to say, not to mention that I learn a lot too. :bowing:

Thanks to you both for posting about the TB's ambiguous origins. :cheers:

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1094
LOL, thanks. It all began with a love of the books and reading every bit of Tolkien I could get my hands on.

I'm enjoying the revival of this thread with discussion of esoteric topics. Dare I hope we'll tackle that all-time quandary, whether Balrogs have wings?
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1096
Thinking about balrogs made me curious what odd factoids I'd turn up with a google search. I was amazed to read that Tolkien once wrote in a marginal note late in his life that there were never more than 3-7 balrogs ever. This was a revision of earlier suggestions that there were scores of them.

One of the great richnesses of Tolkien's work, and simultaneously one of the great hindrances, is the sheer volume of variant versions of the stories, and even of basic facts. The approach I've always taken is to hold the published Hobbit, LOTR, and Silmarillion as canon and the rest of it as interesting side-branches but not necessarily authoritative. Of course, even that line of distinction must blur somewhat. Some of the stories in Unfinished Tales are to me absolutely essential parts of the Legendarium and didn't end up in one of the Canonical Three (to borrow and paraphrase from Ripperology) for reasons of length. Because he was cutting them out, the Professor never cast them in final form. Nut I would classify much of UT as almost-canon. The History series, on the other hand, is interesting as a study in how the Legendarium evolved, but I don't know that I'd turn to it for definitive answers to specific questions.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1097
Yep, I know all about the changing number of balrogs.

In terms of what you are saying about the sheer number of versions and sometimes contradicting facts, I typically hold the last thing written on the subject as the one to be held as definitive. I know that unless Tolkien himself spoke those words, that he could go and change things all over again, but since at some point he wrote about every detail one last time, that instance should be considered the version that he settled on because there are no more after that.

A long way of saying that yes, in my version of Middle-earth, there were only a very small handful of balrogs, not scores of them. I think Tolkien had their numbers being much greater before he settled on exactly what their nature was. Once he fleshed their origins and power, having 'scores' of them seemed silly and unfeasible. Reducing them in number made them all the more awesome and fearsome because these were no less than powerful Maiar, wielding their might with unrestrained fury. Had there been scores of them, you would have needed an entire army of Ecthelions to even survive one of the Wars of Beleriand, never mind win. Morgoth's dominion over Middle-earth would have been swift if he had scores of balrogs at his disposal. I would even go so far as to say that he wouldn't have bothered to create dragons if that were the case,
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Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1098
I'm just going to drop this link in here since it covers a lot of ground.

http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2018/04 ... this-year/

Of special note are a Tolkien biopic (starring Nicolas Hoult, well-known to most of us as Hank McCoy from the more recent X-Men movies) and that, supposedly, CJRT is going to drop one last Silmarillion tie-in, the Fall of Gondolin, in August. Read on!
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1099
Olorin wrote: Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:29 pm I'm just going to drop this link in here since it covers a lot of ground.

http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2018/04 ... this-year/

Of special note are a Tolkien biopic (starring Nicolas Hoult, well-known to most of us as Hank McCoy from the more recent X-Men movies) and that, supposedly, CJRT is going to drop one last Silmarillion tie-in, the Fall of Gondolin, in August. Read on!
Yeah, the official Tolkien Facebook page today said “big news coming tomorrow.” And The Fall Of Gondolin is already on presale in the UK, and it looks like the news is going to be the ACTUAL announcement of the book.

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1100
The Fall of Gondolin now has its formal announcement:

https://www.tolkiensociety.org/2018/04/ ... published/

I had no expectations for this; to be treated to this shortly after the publishing of Beren and Luthien is just fantastic. I'm currently re-reading the Children of Hurin, which was coincidentally my first Tolkien read. A weird place to start, but not a bad place to revisit.

Edit: You folks might find this article to be of interest as well. This is the first time I've heard of this project! https://www.tolkiensociety.org/2018/04/ ... -unveiled/
"Remember, the force will be with you, always."

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