Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1003
Late to the game here, I guess, but there was actually a consolidated index to the History of Middle Earth series (I think Val or someone mentioned it recently). I realized this would be a very hand thing to have so I started looking into it. It was originally published paperback only in the early 2000s (saw both 2002 and 2005; not sure which is right) and was later published as a hardcover in 2010. Both versions are out of print but available online through used book dealers. The lowest going price for the hardcover edition was like $565. I ordered myself a new copy of the paperback from a bookseller in New York for $16, thag you very buch.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1004
[quote=""Olorin""]Late to the game here, I guess, but there was actually a consolidated index to the History of Middle Earth series (I think Val or someone mentioned it recently). I realized this would be a very hand thing to have so I started looking into it. It was originally published paperback only in the early 2000s (saw both 2002 and 2005; not sure which is right) and was later published as a hardcover in 2010. Both versions are out of print but available online through used book dealers. The lowest going price for the hardcover edition was like $565. I ordered myself a new copy of the paperback from a bookseller in New York for $16, thag you very buch.[/quote]

Could you provide a little more info....the exact title or, even better, the ISBN. Thag you, too.


"Unless you're prepared to surrender everything, don't surrender anything."

When seconds matter, it's reassuring to know that the police are only minutes away.

"Only the paranoid survive."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1006
Copied straight from the Amazon page on it, obviously. You can also order it through online used book sellers like Abebooks (where I ordered it) and probably through AddALL Books.

I don't know how the initial publication of this evaded my notice. I'm wondering if maybe it wasn't advertised on the Tolkien Estate or Houghton-Mifflin sites. I guess there's also a possibility that I was aware of it but in an off mood, I dismissed it as a cash grab. I still haven't acquired The History of The Hobbit set. First I thought it was too pricey, and then it was out of print. I suppose I should track it down, or more to the point, decide if I really want it.
Last edited by Olorin on Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1007
For any members in the Los Angeles area, this would be very cool:

http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2015/03 ... his-month/

The Saturday schedule involves showing Bakshi's LOTR and Wizards. For those not in the know, animator Ralph Bakshi did an animated version of about the first half of LOTR in 1978. I hated it at the time, but in some respects, it is truer to the books than PJ's version (though obviously it suffered greatly from trying to cram 1.5 books' worth of material into 2.5 hours' worth of movie. Wizards was an original Bakshi movie from, I believe, 1977. While certainly a product of its times, for me it is pure magic, being unfettered with e xp ectations derived from any sacred source text like LOTR and instead imbued with rosy memories of seeing it with friends when I was in high school (yes, I'm that old, don't go there).

Anyway, if I were in LA, I would surely go to this.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1008
So in order to break up the routine, and get out of the house for a few hours each week, I got a bug for doing a new piece of artwork.
Never using pastels before, I took a class with my lifelong mentor who has been doing pastels for about 20 years now.

I decided to bring the map of Middle Earth to life.
Since it is rather surreal and basically an impossible view, I have titled it:
In the Eye of Gwaihir.
Image

You owners are welcome to use this as a banner for the forum should you choose to. I'm sure someone here can stretch it out on photoshop.
Last edited by Thranduil on Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
"and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts- to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, to cut stones, to work in wood, and engage in all kinds of craftsmanship"

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1010
Did you spot Orthanc, 'way off in the arms of the southern end of the MM?

No Edoras or Helm's Deep, tho'....probably because they would be too small to see anyway.

Edit: I think Helm's Deep is there.

Double edit: I think I just spotted Edoras as well.... on a stand -alone hill it seems.
Last edited by Deimos on Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.


"Unless you're prepared to surrender everything, don't surrender anything."

When seconds matter, it's reassuring to know that the police are only minutes away.

"Only the paranoid survive."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1011
[quote=""Fingolfin""]That's awesome! I love it, Thrand! Is the point of view supposed to be looking over the Black Gate, looking westward across Middle-Earth?[/quote]
Yeah it's a view looking from the ridge of the mountains of Shadow to the northwest
[quote=""Deimos""]Did you spot Orthanc, 'way off in the arms of the southern end of the MM?

No Edoras or Helm's Deep, tho'....probably because they would be too small to see anyway.

Edit: I think Helm's Deep is there.

Double edit: I think I just spotted Edoras as well.... on a stand -alone hill it seems.[/quote]
Helms Deep is tucked behind the landscape just above Edoras across from Isengard.
"and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts- to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, to cut stones, to work in wood, and engage in all kinds of craftsmanship"

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1022
[quote=""Thranduil""]Thanks all :)
Denethor's Unauthorized Home. :crazy: [/quote]
(added a little "duh" emphasis for those who missed it...)

You know, that really is true, since he is the Steward, not the King


"Unless you're prepared to surrender everything, don't surrender anything."

When seconds matter, it's reassuring to know that the police are only minutes away.

"Only the paranoid survive."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1023
So lately I've been beating my exam stress by reading more of The Fellowship of the Ring. I feel like I pick up more and more every time I read it. It almost seems to me like the previous times I read for plot and was just watching the movie in my head; now, I'm really painting Middle-Earth in my mind as I read it and I'm remembering why these books are so special. My heart raced as Gandalf smote the Bridge in Moria, and I can picture the trek to Lothlorien so vividly! :coolsmile

I just finished the Lothlorien chapter and I read the last sentence a few times: "...and came there never again as a living man." This is referring to Aragorn leaving Cerin Amroth with Frodo, Sam, and Haldir. I had previously imagined that the word choice was just Tolkien's writing style; now, however, I'm wondering if he was making an allusion to Arwen visiting Cerin Amroth upon her death. Did Tolkien intend for us as readers to perceive in hindsight that Aragorn's "spirit" (such as a man can have in Tolkien's mythos) visited that place once he was no longer a living man? Did his spirit wait there for Arwen to receive the afterlife, or is this perhaps just an afterthought that their spirits symbolically converged upon that place in life and death?

We tend to answer questions like these in Middle-Earth canon with absolute facts, and rightfully so: Tolkien went to great effort to make his world function in the way that it does. But I'm thinking about this question more like Tolkien the story-teller than Tolkien the loremaster/world-creator. Does anyone else get the vibe that Tolkien put weight on "as a living man" for a reason?

:coolsmile
"Remember, the force will be with you, always."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1024
What a great question! The quick, easy answer is that when Aragorn died, his spirit passed immediately and directly to the Halls of Mandos, before heading out into the unknown. However, it's theoretically possible that in light of his heroic achievements, he was permitted to wait for Arwen, so that they could go together. However, I don't know of anything else in Tolkien's writings to support that, and I think it would be reading too much into "came there never again as a living man" to think it was thus.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1027
[quote=""Fingolfin""]The only evidence I can think of is a sort of parallel to Beren and Lithium being together in life and death, but there situation was different for obvious reasons.[/quote]

So are you sure it's not Boron and Lithium?


"Unless you're prepared to surrender everything, don't surrender anything."

When seconds matter, it's reassuring to know that the police are only minutes away.

"Only the paranoid survive."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1031
[quote=""Fingolfin""]

I just finished the Lothlorien chapter and I read the last sentence a few times: "...and came there never again as a living man." This is referring to Aragorn leaving Cerin Amroth with Frodo, Sam, and Haldir. I had previously imagined that the word choice was just Tolkien's writing style; now, however, I'm wondering if he was making an allusion to Arwen visiting Cerin Amroth upon her death. Did Tolkien intend for us as readers to perceive in hindsight that Aragorn's "spirit" (such as a man can have in Tolkien's mythos) visited that place once he was no longer a living man? Did his spirit wait there for Arwen to receive the afterlife, or is this perhaps just an afterthought that their spirits symbolically converged upon that place in life and death?
[/quote]

This jogged my memory of a painting that a friend did. Jef Murray, artist, illustrator and author: http://www.jefmurray.com

Image


This seems to fit that passage very well.
Check out his other painting and sketches.
This day does not belong to one man but to all.
Let us together rebuild this world that we may
share in the days of peace.

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1035
Holy smokes, I had nearly forgotten about Jeff! I have almost bought that picture so many times. All if his work is wonderful! :)

Speaking of artwork, I have another question. Does anyone know of any good renditions of ents that aren't movie inspired? I have reached the Treebeard chapter in The Two Towers and I realized I really can't picture an ent other than the Peter Jackson version. I do love the movie rendition but I would like to see how someone might have imagined them closer to how Tolkien described them.
"Remember, the force will be with you, always."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1036
[quote=""Fingolfin""]Holy smokes, I had nearly forgotten about Jeff! I have almost bought that picture so many times. All if his work is wonderful! :)

Speaking of artwork, I have another question. Does anyone know of any good renditions of ents that aren't movie inspired? I have reached the Treebeard chapter in The Two Towers and I realized I really can't picture an ent other than the Peter Jackson version. I do love the movie rendition but I would like to see how someone might have imagined them closer to how Tolkien described them.[/quote]

Google "Ent" and also Treebeard,. Once the hits show up click on "images" in the Google toolbar.
Alternately, you can Google "Ent images" or "Treebeard images".

Either way you'll get tons of images, everything from drawings and sculptures to the pictures from gaming cards


"Unless you're prepared to surrender everything, don't surrender anything."

When seconds matter, it's reassuring to know that the police are only minutes away.

"Only the paranoid survive."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1038
Fingolfin wrote:Well, on the subject of Jeff's artwork, I purchased "A Canticle for Elessar" for my girlfriend's graduation present. Should be here in a few days, and I'll frame it so ya'll can see. :thumbs_up
Framed yet? Very excited to hear about her reaction!
"As the light upon the leaves of trees, as the voice of clear waters, as the stars above the mists of the world, such was her glory and her loveliness; and in her face was a shining light."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1040
So I've been reading return of the king and I just got to the point where Denethor burns himself alive and there's a passage where the Dome of the house of stewards burst into flame. Tolkien describes how the flames danced into the air above the broken Dome of this hallowed place of Gondor. It got me wondering if this was a small allusion to the temple that Sauron built in Numenor for sacrifices to Morgoth. After all, that came about when sauron corrupted the minds of Westernesse and got them to give into their own fear. Gandalf goes on to describe how the palantir caused the malice of Sauron to enter and corrupt Minas Tirith. I wonder if this was an intentional nod to the recurring idea that Morgoth, by way of Sauron in this instance, would forever tarnish the world with fear and malice?
"Remember, the force will be with you, always."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1041
Fin, you make a very good point about the parallels. I myself have just finished reading Children of Hurin and in Chris' notes about the book, there is a mention of a ton of different plot lines being shared, repeated, rehashed, reconfigured and that over the course of 80+ years there were some duplicates.

So it is very possible that it was an intentional nod to the past "repeating itself," but I wouldn't be surprised if JRR is looking down right now laughing, "Crap, that was only supposed to be in the Lord of the Rings plot. Chris!!!!!!!!!" :D
"As the light upon the leaves of trees, as the voice of clear waters, as the stars above the mists of the world, such was her glory and her loveliness; and in her face was a shining light."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1044
In my recent re-reading I've made it into Appendix A of The Return of the King. This material, to my knowledge, is fair game to film. Has anyone in PJ's crew ever talked about the possibility of making films about the history of Gondor? I'm reading through and have made it as far as Umbardicil and the death of Castamir's descendants. This is perfect trilogy material that I totally skimmed the last time I read it. There's familiar locations with a huge chance to see all of LotR's sets in their heyday, plus explore more of Gondor and Rhovanion, a tie in to The Hobbit's geography. It's all death, war, plague, romance, rebellion, and pomp. This almost seems like a no-brainer for PJ's next heavily-funded forray into his favorite world. :huh:
"Remember, the force will be with you, always."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1045
I have to respectfully disagree.

For one, the material you speak of has nowhere near the recognition, power, and interest that that which lies within the main body of The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit commands. Second, I don't think PJ has as much carte blanche with the studios to do whatever he wants as you might think. The Hobbit movies did not generate the same revenue or critical acclaim that LOTR did, and to my opinion (in which I am joined by many,) failed to recapture a lot of the magic of the movies of 15 years ago. For a major studio to take a gamble on such a project, the prospective audience would need a little more awareness of the subject matter and plot than to merely say it happens to set in Middle-earth and just hope people go see it on that merit alone.

Sure the hard core fans would line up, but the casual book fans, and those that are maybe only aware of the main titles by name, would not. The only thing that would even come close in terms of recognition would be the Silmarillion. Ask people to go see a movie about Castamir the Usurper and Umbardacil and people will go "The what, with the who?" Like it or not, they are footnotes in the history of Middle-earth, and it's not the stuff that would sustain three action-packed blockbuster movies like you propose.

On TV however, is where such a story could shine. I could see a cable network picking up a story like this as a miniseries or even something that would run over a couple of seasons. With the precedent of Game of Thrones, a political-fantasy story, filled with intrigue, charismatic characters, and beautiful settings, could really take off. I get excited just thinking of what Umbar would look like onscreen. :thumbs_up
This Space for Rent

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1047
While I agree that the Silmarillion would make a great series like GOT, I cringe of the thought that it would be a perversion of Tolkien's writings when laced with sex and nudity for the sake of viewer attraction.
This is where I draw the line and respect the professor beyond any personal desire to see such a series.
Because that is EXACTLY what they will do to it. :viking:
"and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts- to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, to cut stones, to work in wood, and engage in all kinds of craftsmanship"

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1048
Not with the right people in control. It doesn't have to be an HBO production or one that necessarily mimics the formula of GoT for success. I think there would be too big enough of an outcry if they even considered going in that direction. Considering the draconian conservative bent of Tolkien's heirs, I would be absolutely shocked if they, after the very unlikely agreement for screen rights is dealt with, would not place some very strict clauses on how the material can be presented. See Marvel's agreement with Sony on how Spider Man can be depicted, as an example.
This Space for Rent

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1049
Valkrist wrote:Not with the right people in control. It doesn't have to be an HBO production or one that necessarily mimics the formula of GoT for success. I think there would be too big enough of an outcry if they even considered going in that direction. Considering the draconian conservative bent of Tolkien's heirs, I would be absolutely shocked if they, after the very unlikely agreement for screen rights is dealt with, would not place some very strict clauses on how the material can be presented. See Marvel's agreement with Sony on how Spider Man can be depicted, as an example.
I'm glad to hear your informative words on this issue Val.
Not that I was unaware of such possible measures, I was just saying it would pain me to see Tolkien's work put to blatant distaste for the sake of money/success.
I would welcome it if such restraints were used.
"and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts- to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, to cut stones, to work in wood, and engage in all kinds of craftsmanship"

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

1050
Regarding the "draconian conservative bent" of the Estate, which is very much a reflection of the Professor himself, I think the mythos has been dramatized far enough off that course via the belching, farting, and invented-from-whole-cloth love stories in PJ's movies. I think that a premium channel adaptation of the Sil or stories from the appendices could incorporate a lot of mayhem, since that's in the books, but they would not be able to sexy it up and still pretend it reflects Tolkien. And as Val points out, the Estate would certainly stipulate against that in the contract, which of course it is never going to approve anyway.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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