Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

903
In that case PJ took some liberties with Thror. No surprise there. When thinking about it more, the secretive nature of dwarves, and considering what the Seven did to them, it does make sense that they would not wear them openly. I'm sure the Three were hidden for different reasons lest agents of Sauron deduce who had them. I actually don't recall seeing Vilya or Narya anywhere in the movies other than the prologue, but Frodo does glimpse Nenya on Galadriel's finger, which I don't recall being in the book. It's been so long I need to read them again.
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Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

904
[quote=""Valkrist""]In that case PJ took some liberties with Thror. No surprise there. When thinking about it more, the secretive nature of dwarves, and considering what the Seven did to them, it does make sense that they would not wear them openly. I'm sure the Three were hidden for different reasons lest agents of Sauron deduce who had them. I actually don't recall seeing Vilya or Narya anywhere in the movies other than the prologue, but Frodo does glimpse Nenya on Galadriel's finger, which I don't recall being in the book. It's been so long I need to read them again.[/quote]

'Tis indeed in the book.
(Now I'm going from memory) : Frodo actually sees Nenya on her finger....Sam only sees some kind of quasi-starlight on her hand.
Last edited by Deimos on Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

907
Thanks for helping me answer this. :) If I was a betting woman, well, I'd bet PJ probably gets it wrong. But I was really interested in how it should have been in Middle Earth, w/o all the ring flaunting.

Is it too speculative to say the Seven probably had a 'draw' to them (akin to the One Ring, but not with that intensity), whereas the Three did not? Or were the Three not openly noticed because they were concealed by some other means?

I don't want to draw the films in too much and taint the thread, but it would seem that when Gandalf is imprisoned in Dol Guldur, the Necromancer would have figured out "Ah, Narya! Thanks very much for this, Olorin!"

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

908
My theory, and this is coming just from me as personal opinion, is that the Seven, probably much like the Nine, had the same draw and pull that the One did, albeit to a much lesser extent. They were made with the same tainted ring lore and were touched by the hand of Sauron in their forging, thus they were forever tainted with his corruption, and the wearers doomed from the outset.

When it comes to how the Seven were worn, although they did not turn the wearers into wraith slaves like the Nine did, they did awaken the worst forms of greed and paranoia inside the hearts of the Dwarf lords. This no doubt multiplied their defensive protectiveness of their rings because they were the cause of their drive for more and more riches. Because the greed meant that they wanted more and more, it would be natural that they hide and protect the source of that desire. Nevertheless, their pull of greed and corruption was still so strong that it drew dragons to them, also known as naturally greedy creatures. The dragons probably believed they were only seeking treasure and lusting to burn dwarves, but in reality it was the pull of the Seven at work, wherever they may be found.

The Three were very different. Sauron had no part in their making, because Celebrimbor made them in secret. Sauron therefore did not suspect of their existence until much later when they were finished and the rings were worn. This is because although Sauron was not present in their making to touch them with his malice and spells of binding, they were nevertheless made with the same corrupted ring lore used to make the others, so therefore they were still tied to the master Ring. This is why when the One was no more, that the Three also lost their power.

The main power of the Three was concealment and protection. I believe that if the Three were wielded openly and in raw displays of power, Sauron would have found them very quickly, slain the wearers, and taken them for himself. He knew of them and wanted them, as he did include them in the spell of binding present on the One. When he destroyed Ost-in-edhil, he searched the place high and low for them, and likely tortured Celebrimbor before his death to learn of their location. The smith however, had given them to Gil-galad prior to that and instructed him on their danger.

It was the presence of Vilya and Nenya that kept Rivendell and Lorien hidden and protected from Sauron's prying Eye. These were areas of Middle-earth that his burning gaze could not penetrate, a fog to his vision, and he long suspected that meant the presence of the Three, but he could not be certain. Because of this nature and power of concealment, I believe the Three were not easily visible to mortal eyes in and of themselves, and could extend that obfuscating effect to person wearing one. This is how I believe Gandalf was able to penetrate Dol Guldur several times and not be detected by Sauron each time: he wore Narya, and the elven ring acted as a blind spot to the Necromancer's ever-searching senses and awareness. To me, this is where PJ fails in grasping the subleties of Tolkien and has to go for the flash and loud noises.

So, to answer your question, Narya would have had the opposite effect of what you are thinking in Dol Guldur. I have no doubt that Sauron would have found it eventually if he had imprisoned Gandalf (which is a movie invention,) but Narya would definitely not be broadcasting its presence. Or at least the book version wouldn't have.
Last edited by Valkrist on Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:25 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

909
Thanks for taking the time to answer Val. :) I think I agree with you on most of this, and certainly that PJ really blew it with Gandalf's imprisonment. It didn't happen, messes up the canon of the films (and books), and doesn't seem necessary except to further streamline the film storyline by way of complicating it. If that makes sense (it did to PJ and crew ;) ).

It's my understanding Gandalf visited Dol Guldur three times: the first for investigation, the second he found Thrain, and the third was Dol Guldur's destruction. When Gandalf visited the first time, Sauron fled and hid. Was this because Gandalf wasn't invoking the power of Narya, and thus Sauron sensed him approach and fled? Or was he just too weak to risk confronting Gandalf at the time, or alternatively just didn't want to be seen with his hands dirty in Dol Guldur?

(Either way, in the films, I think Sauron would have happily plucked Narya from Gandalf, unless he was able to conceal it without invoking it somehow...hence, it just boils down to a film mistake)

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

910
Well, the first time, Gandalf's investigating, Sauron did indeed flee because he was too weak to face confrontation, or so I've always believed, and didn't want to be found out that early in the game, so to speak. The second time would've been when he found Thrain and discovered the true nature of "The Necromancer".

As for the third time, I believe you're referring to the White Council putting forth their power to e xp el Sauron. Nowhere e xp licitly say this, but it could be a PJ decision. However, this was not the destruction of Dol Goldur. That occurred at the hands of Galadriel, Celeborn, and the Galadhrim during the War of the Ring, after the third and failed attempt at attacking Lothlorien. This happened right around the same time as the Battle of Pelennor Fields, which is where Gandalf would've been at the time. :thumbs_up
"Remember, the force will be with you, always."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

911
I agree with Fin on both counts.

Sauron fled because Gandalf must've gotten too close to his lair within Dol Guldur, and even with Narya's power, the Necromancer would still feel some form of presence approaching, whether from a fellow Maia spirit or the presence of the elven ring itself. Whatever the case, he was either too weak still to confront whoever was snooping about, or feared that if he remained and clear signs of his presence were confirmed, that his return would be e xp osed to his enemies. So he did what all smart villains do when caught unready, and fled.

As for the third visit, yes, it was mainly to serve Sauron his eviction notice for not paying the rent and generally lowering the property values around southern Mirkwood with loitering orcs. The destruction came much later, like Fin said, at Galadriel's hands.
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Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

912
Thanks for the input guys! Yes, that's what I meant. Third time was the eviction notice, Dol Guldur was completely destroyed with the War of the Ring. :thumbs_up I did think this eviction notice came with some sort of destruction though, seeing as the White Council was kicking the crew out with some sort of force... Perhaps that's not mentioned in Tolkien's writings though.

Edit - I was just looking at a timeline of events in the Third Age. If the One Ring was destroyed on March 25, and the final destruction of Dol Guldur began on March 28, the Elves did this under their own power and w/o the aid of the Three. I'm impressed indeed, that is some feat!
Last edited by Nerdanel on Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

913
Well, there's lots of debate as to whether an actual battle was fought; the White Council put forth their combined mystical power and forced him out; or whether Sauron couldn't be bothered to even put up a defense and simply fled, leaving the attackers with nothing much to do.

Sadly, Tolkien did not elaborate, and even if he did, it leaves the door open for PJ to have some kind of epic confrontation, complete with elves jumping out of dropships, orcs and trolls in mech-armour, and nukes going off everywhere, while Gandalf and Sauron duke it out in Pacific Rim-styled giant-robot armour. Wait and see.

[quote=""Nerdanel""]Edit - I was just looking at a timeline of events in the Third Age. If the One Ring was destroyed on March 25, and the final destruction of Dol Guldur began on March 28, the Elves did this under their own power and w/o the aid of the Three. I'm impressed indeed, that is some feat![/quote]

Yes, they did so without Nenya (a fact I once got wrong also because I forgot to look at the dates.) However, remember that they had already beaten back the armies of Dol Guldur three times, so the remaining forces defending the fortress had to be considerably reduced by the time of the siege, if there was one, came about. The Galadhrim were also probably bolstered by Thranduil's elves at this point, for they too had beaten back invasions from Dol Guldur to the north. Another fact that shows the Dol Guldur forces were pretty much finished by then. Lastly, Khamul, second of the Nine and leader of those armies, was no more, destroyed with the loss of the One. Without such fear and driving force behind them, the armies of Dol Guldur would have been scattered like leaves when one takes all the above factors into consideration. It was then left to Galadriel to use her own magic and mystical prowess to throw down the walls and e xp ose the pits.
Last edited by Valkrist on Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

914
[quote=""Valkrist""]
Sadly, Tolkien did not elaborate, and even if he did, it leaves the door open for PJ to have some kind of epic confrontation, complete with elves jumping out of dropships, orcs and trolls in mech-armour, and nukes going off everywhere, while Gandalf and Sauron duke it out in Pacific Rim-styled giant-robot armour. Wait and see.[/quote]

That is the double-edged sword of PJ. He can bring Middle Earth to life in way others haven't and create visual feasts like Smaug, but then he tends to inflate the drama. :( I'm thinking he will just compress the story and destroy Dol Guldur once and for all, then and there.

[quote=""Valkrist""]
It was then left to Galadriel to use her own magic and mystical prowess to throw down the walls and e xp ose the pits.[/quote]

Yep, I think it's this that impresses me most. :thumbs_up

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

918
[quote=""Nerdanel""]And thank you for the answers! I love Middle Earth, and it has some of the richest history and lore of any fantastical place I know. I feel lucky to get to ask some of the e xp erts here. :coolsmile

Now if only we could get a mini-series of the Silmarillion like someone here suggested - Olorin was that you? :thumbs_up [/quote]

Yes, many times I have said that a mini-series or premium channel series would be the ideal format for The Silmarillion. I think of it whenever I watch Game of Thrones. That show is so well made: writing, acting, direction, music, effects. It is a testament to what television can accomplish. And there are many similarities between Game of Thrones and The Silmarillion (and LOTR, of course, for that matter): huge cast of characters, scattered over a vast land, facing all sorts of struggles and hardships. A premium channel format, where a book may be translated into 10 one-hour segments, allows so much breathing room for development of characters and nuance of plot.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

919
Incidentally, there's a Tolkien reference book I cannot recommend enough. It was first published in the late 70s and was revised (to whatever extent) in 2001. It is scholarly but accessible. It is thorough. And I have never found a mistake in it (though surely there must be some). It was written by Robert Foster and it is called
Tolkien's World from A to Z: The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth

It is still in print as a trade paperback and it is not all that e xp ensive at online retailers (and maybe at your brick and mortar store).


Although I know the answer to almost every question that pops up in this thread, I often turn to this book to pin down the exact source within the actual novels, so I can reference them directly, or to refresh my memory.


A quicker and free, though much less comprehensive, resource is the website The Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/


And of course there are various wikis online. I will not vouch for how accurate they are or are not.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

920
[quote=""Valkrist""]Man, I love talking ME history once again!

Thanks, Nerdanel, for reviving this cool thread and making me envision those "moments of Middle-earth" again. :coolsmile [/quote]
Your comments here made me look back in my own life, and I have to say I'm shaking my head in amazement.
No one could have told me what all this was going to do to my life.

I never finished reading LOTR until I heard about the films coming.
The films led to the replicas, the replicas led to this forum, the forum has this thread where I've learned beyond e xp ectation, as well as N2D's Dungeon which is the epitome of display and the ultimate inspiration to me.

And of course, you all know where it has taken my life. I need to emphasize this, my life has completely changed course! :O

Go figure. I cannot e xp ress my gratitude enough.
"and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts- to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, to cut stones, to work in wood, and engage in all kinds of craftsmanship"

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

921
[quote=""Olorin""]Incidentally, there's a Tolkien reference book I cannot recommend enough. It was first published in the late 70s and was revised (to whatever extent) in 2001. It is scholarly but accessible. It is thorough. And I have never found a mistake in it (though surely there must be some). It was written by Robert Foster and it is called
Tolkien's World from A to Z: The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth

It is still in print as a trade paperback and it is not all that e xp ensive at online retailers (and maybe at your brick and mortar store).


Although I know the answer to almost every question that pops up in this thread, I often turn to this book to pin down the exact source within the actual novels, so I can reference them directly, or to refresh my memory.[/quote]

I must have the earlier edition of that book: mine is titled "The Complete Guide to Middle Earth from the Hobbit to the Silmarillion"... there is no "A to Z" in the title.
(And you'd think the names "Hobbit" and "Silmarillion" would be listed the other way around, to be chronologically correct)

The listed publication dates are 1971 and 1978, so mine is obviously a 1978 ed.
It is cloth hardcover which I think I got at alibris.com a few years ago.

And here's something interesting ... sections of the book appeared as early as 1966 in the SF magazine Niekas.

Also, I wonder what was added later for the 2001 edition.
My edition has 3 appendices, and the third one is only a conversion for page numbering between the two 1970's editions.
Last edited by Deimos on Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

922
[quote=""Olorin""]Incidentally, there's a Tolkien reference book I cannot recommend enough. It was first published in the late 70s and was revised (to whatever extent) in 2001. It is scholarly but accessible. It is thorough. And I have never found a mistake in it (though surely there must be some). It was written by Robert Foster and it is called
Tolkien's World from A to Z: The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth
[/quote]

Thanks for this, Olorin! I did look it up on Amazon and used their 'search inside this book' tool. The pages previewed were organized somewhat like a dictionary, is this how the entire text appears? Either way, it's now on my list. :thumbs_up

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

924
[quote=""Nerdanel""]The pages previewed were organized somewhat like a dictionary, is this how the entire text appears? Either way, it's now on my list. :thumbs_up [/quote]

Yes. There may be some appendices but I can't go grab mine right now without dislodging my cat from my shoulder, and I don't want to do that.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

925
[quote=""Olorin""]Yes. There may be some appendices but I can't go grab mine right now without dislodging my cat from my shoulder, and I don't want to do that.[/quote]

So how long has the cat let you live there? ;)

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

931
[quote=""Olorin""]7 years now, and 3 at the old place. She also lets me pay the mortgage and change the litter box.[/quote]

Hahaha! Stated like a true lifetime cat owner! I know the feeling... :)

"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."

~~ Thorin Oakenshield

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

933
Old news!...lol. But I'm sure that special will be quite interesting!
"So many vows...they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws.
It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other.”

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

934
[quote=""Deimos""]So how long has the cat let you live there? ;) [/quote]
Got a good laugh out of this :thumbs_up
[quote=""Olorin""]7 years now, and 3 at the old place. She also lets me pay the mortgage and change the litter box.[/quote]
And pay chef no doubt :)
"and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts- to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, to cut stones, to work in wood, and engage in all kinds of craftsmanship"

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

935
Here's a nice little interview with Simon Tolkien, JRR's grandson and CJR's son. He talks about his memories of his grandparents (some info in there on difficulties between the two that I had not read elsewhere), and of his father editing The Silmarillion. There's no mention of the infamous alleged rift between Simon and Christopher, but it's worth a quick read.

Oh, and he name-checks Van Morrison, another plus in my book.

http://www.mythsoc.org/blog/interview-w ... n-tolkien/
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

936
[quote=""Olorin""]Here's a nice little interview with Simon Tolkien, JRR's grandson and CJR's son. He talks about his memories of his grandparents (some info in there on difficulties between the two that I had not read elsewhere), and of his father editing The Silmarillion....
http://www.mythsoc.org/blog/interview-w ... n-tolkien/[/quote]

Good read, Olorin...thanks for posting the link.
I had read about their "difficulties" in a few other places a while back.
Edith mightily resented that he spent so much of his non-teachng time with his literary collegues, e.g. with The Inklings, but especially CS Lewis whom, she believed, intruded upon their lives.

His guardian kept the two separate because he was concerned that their relationship would affect Tolkien's university studies and that he wouldn't graduate.

Tangential question for you:
Is the Mythopeic Society something you have bookmarked, i.e., that you visit often? Or did you happen on the interview via another site that linked to it?
Just wondering because I discovered it years ago. I think there is a link to it from the Tolkien Society site.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

937
I got the link through theonering.net. I did not have the Mythopoeic Society bookmarked before...but I do now.

I think it must have been a heavy cross for JRR to bear (pun partially intended) that Edith did not stay in the Catholic Church. His faith was SO important to him, and it must have distressed him greatly that she backed out.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

938
Ralph Bakshi's son has restored a pair of scenes from the 1978 animated LOTR of Gandalf fighting the Balrog after their fall from the Bridge: http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2014/03 ... s-footage/

The scenes were cut from the theatrical release due to lack of time to animate them properly, and their place was taken by a couple of still frames.

First reading this, I wondered whether these scenes might find their way into an extended cut of that movie, preferably one where the image has been cleaned up (there's so much dust and nicks on the print in some places that it looks like characters are in a storm of insects. There's no mention in the brief article whether any new or restored edition is planned. But honestly, after viewing the clips, I think I prefer the impressionistic stills that took their place over the way the clips look. And I certainly think I didn't need to see Gandalf's robe billow up, and see his scrawny pale legs. Really.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

940
[quote=""Buckeye""]Found this in my Facebook newsfeed... The LOTR Project's interactive map of Middle Earth:
http://lotrproject.com/map/?path=1#path=1[/quote]
Hey, hey, hey! I'm not on this map!
What's with that? :angry:
"and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts- to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, to cut stones, to work in wood, and engage in all kinds of craftsmanship"

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

941
Hey other people who know Middle-Earth well, I need some help. I can't look things up in my books because they're at home. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it true that when elves die, their spirits go to the Halls of Mandos, which is located within Valinor (on the westernmost edge, right?). After spending a period of time in Mandos, they regain their bodies and are free to roam Valinor.

So, fact check me, where did I read that? :huh:
"Remember, the force will be with you, always."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

942
Yes, it is true. They wait in the Halls of Mandos for a time, and then return in a new body (I assume it is identical to their original mortal form.) They cannot leave Valinor, though Glorfindel was a special case, if you accept Tolkien's version of the story that he is the same elf in the First Age as the one in the Third. Some also presume that the time they wait may have something to do with how they conducted themselves in life, so guys like Feanor could be waiting for a while. Also, I seem to recall reading that the vast majority of them would not be released until the time of the final prophecy of Mandos and the Dagor Dagorath.

As for where you might have read some of this, most likely the Silmarillion, though it could also have been History of Middle-earth, Book of Lost Tales, or Unfinished Tales.
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Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

944
I see. Definitely a debatable issue.

Problem with a lot of Tolkien lore is that he changed so much of it as he went along, and in many cases he questioned his own decisions or never finalized in writing what the final version of some of the things he wrote was. In the case of Glorfindel, the argument is as old as to whether or not Balrogs have wings. I do believe that Tolkien's final word on the subject was that yes, he was indeed the same elf returned. However, there is enough ambiguity and room for interpretation in his words that the other camp finds grounds to argue this.

Perhaps Olorin will be kind enough to provide us with the Prof's quote on this. :)
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Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

945
I'm afraid I can't cast any more light onto it just off the top of my head at the moment. I will say for Fin's benefit that a good general on-line resource for when you don't have your books handy is the Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/

In fact, they have a discussion of this very issue: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/g/glorfindel.html

Short version is, Tolkien did not originally intend them to be the same person, but after he reused the name and didn't come up with a different name prior to LOTR going to press, he acquiesced himself to making them the same person.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

946
I started reading The Hobbit again last night. This is the first time I've re-read it since the films came out, and I noticed that some of the imagery and characters in my head look closer to the images from the films in my head. I never thought about this before, but is that something that you guys noticed when reading LotR after the films came out?
"Remember, the force will be with you, always."

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

947
[quote=""Fingolfin""]I started reading The Hobbit again last night. This is the first time I've re-read it since the films came out, and I noticed that some of the imagery and characters in my head look closer to the images from the films in my head. I never thought about this before, but is that something that you guys noticed when reading LotR after the films came out?[/quote]

Veeeerrry interesting topic for discussion, Fin.

I read LOTR twice before seeing any of the flicks (and both times within the year before the release of FOTR,) so I had already visualized how the characters look.

Movie characters vs Book visualizations:

Bilbo [Ian Holm] both at the beginning at Bag End and and at the Grey Havens ...spot on , perfect

Frodo no...never thought Elijah Wood made a good Frodo, so i still see my own Frodo

Gandalf...perfect, absolutley perfect realization. Ian McKellan IS Gandalf

Samwise ...see Bilbo

Merry and Pippin....Close enough

Aragorn....mixed sometimes the way he looked matched up, sometimes it didn't, so I still see my own Aragorn.

Elrond....nope... Hugo Weaving never lined up... still see my own Elrond when I read the stories.

Arwen....big NO...see ELrond (must be a genetic thing....)

Boromir and Legolas...close enough, so I do see them when I read.

Gimli....excellent match...I see John Rhys-Davis’ Gimli

Celeborn, Galadriel, Theoden, Arwen, Saruman, Eomer, Grima, Gollum....close enough, so I see the the movie characters when I read.

Treebeard....oh my...so much better than what I had visualized. I love the movie realization of Treebeard. Definitely see that one when I read.

Denethor....No. not at all the way I pictured him, neither in mien nor personality. I think PJ majorly missed on how he had John Noble portray Denethor. Still see my own Denethor.

Faramir ....no, totally wrong...I see a man with dark hair and more of Boromir’s stature, a little less rough around the edges. So I see my own Faramir in the book.

So for more than half the characters I see the movie versions.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: Pure Middle-Earth discussion.

948
Very interesting! I honestly can't remember how I see LotR, it's been awhile since I've read them. I'll have to think on that next time I read them. I'm getting an interesting mix in The Hobbit of what I originally visioned and the movie versions. Faces are what I saw in the movie but clothing is more along the lines of the hoods and belts described in the book.
"Remember, the force will be with you, always."

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