Oin and Gloin were great, but the rest...

It's like a bad dream and I want to wake up immediately.

What's with the swords??? This shouldn't be some SEGA game!

I know it's (too) early to judge, but PJ might be pulling off George Lucas here.

Some seriously horrible stuff so far.

Who are those two supposed to be?

Actually, Sed, if you look more closely at the sword on the right, you will notice that is not asymetrical at all. In fact, the shape of the blade is very much in keeping with the straight lines, angles, and geometric patterns we see in Gimli's gear and in the carvings of Moria.

I do agree the weapons on the left, the ones that look like cleavers, are a bit odd. It looks like an attempt to cash-in on the Matrix-esque era of characters that fight acrobatically with two blades. Not a style I would associate with a dwarven warrior.

To me, the swords fit in with the geometric shapes characteristic of the dwarven culture (check out the section on Dwarves in Chris Smith's "Weapons & Warfare" book). The thing that's kind of bugging me at this point is that "Kili" (on the right) looks totally like a human, not a dwarf. At least slap a beard on the guy!

Ok, so it's Fili and Kili?

Yeah, the dude on the right looks too human, especially being taller. I know the two characters are supposed to be young, but one guy's got a full beard, and the other one barely has a 5 o'clock shadow. Besides, they were brothers, and I see no similiarities between the two.

I'm with Sed on this one. I was not impressed by the weapon design, and I'm not at all that big a weapon person (in spite of my presence on this site).

I also really had to scratch my head at the appearance of Kili (the dark-haired one). Of course, there's nothing in the picture to give perspective, but he looks tall, and just generally un-Dwarflike. I don't know if Jackson felt he had to make the Dwarves look significantly different from how they looked in LOTR, or if he just decided that since he was casting handsome actors, he wasn't going to cover their faces with prosthetics. But Kili looks more like he should be Bard the Bowman.

Those weapons look a bit orc-ish in that last pic of the dwarves.


I need to read this book so I have a clue who these people are!

Definitely more orcish. This is not Dwarven craftsmanship, sorry. And let's ignore cultural accuracy -- they still SUCK. They're freaking ugly.

Olorin, glad you brought it to mind... I was thinking earlier about perspective, saying "well, I'm sure next to a human or elf this guy would look like a Dwarf". But then I thought, too bad he'll be standing next to people the same height most of the film...

Seriously, this guy in a group of dwarves and a hobbit? He'll look human. I know they're trying to diversify a lot, but this is just way too out there. They should have sought inspiration from the 13th Warrior, which did a wonderful job finding like people and differentiating them nonetheless.

They both look like some horrible cross between dwarf and hobbit to me... It's not that they're too tall, too young, or whatever, they're just way too skinny. I, mean, dwarves are supposed to be short and stocky, no matter how young or handsome they're supposed to be.

As for the weapons, they could work, as long as we don't get anymore ugly dwarf weapons. The sword could look good, once we get a better look at it, although it seems a little small for a two-hander.

Actually, the sword in the pic of the three dwarves look horrible as well, perhaps even worse than the cleavers. And what the hell has the guy on the left done to his hair? Looks like he comes out of some early 80's darkwave band.

Meh, if you ask me they should've stuck to axes and clubs and crossbows or whatever, with only Thorin wielding a sword.

Oh, and another interesting thing about the young dwarves is that Gimli was quite young as well, when he joined the fellowship. I mean, the events of The Hobbit takes place some 50 years before the war of the ring, with Gimli being very young during the hobbit, probably a teenager at best (else he would probably have joined the 13 dwarves), which puts Gimli at around 70 years old when he joined the fellowship. Thing is, the lifespan of a dwarf is 250 years, which makes 70 years what? 25-30 years for a human? So basically, these Fili and Kili dwarves can't be much younger than LOTR era Gimli, yet they look LOADS younger. Meh, why can't they just stick to ugly dwarves, they're supposed to be ugly. Even their females have beards.

I wonder what the hell PJ is thinking. Now that he doesn't have a handsome Legolas to show off to the female audience, he needs handsome dwarves? ***.

I don't like the weapons, but I wait to see if an e xp lanation is given (like they find them in the goblin horde, and they are goblin weapons. I doubt that:angry .

Concerning Kili, he does have a full beard though his jet black hair tends to hide it in the frontal face shot. It would help if his slim waistline was fattened up. And his hair needs to be braided. It's the latter two issues that make him look too human imo.

Back when actors were being announced, I thought for sure that some would get more prosthetics because they are handsome actors and it needs to be hidden; Adian Turner being one especially. Apparently Kili may be the exception in the dwarf formula, and yes, it is probably as Darlak said;

"Now that he doesn't have a handsome Legolas to show off to the female audience, he needs handsome dwarves?"

Well at least one.
Unfortunately marketing psychology does play a role in decisions, as much as I would prefer it wouldn't. I can see Kili amongst the rest of the troupe, and he is going to be a stand out. I hate to say it but I can hear Sir PJ saying, "Gotta make the ladies cry." I'm sure there will be a few tears flowing when that comes...

I don't like the weapons, but I wait to see if an e xp lanation is given (like they find them in the goblin horde, and they are goblin weapons).

No, they're definately dwarven in design, they're just damn ugly.

I hope all this disliking shifts when a pic of Thorin and Orcrist is released!

As for the dwarves released so far, I really like them. I like the way the weapons look, in fact it is along the lines of the way I pictured the swords. Looking forward to seeing Bifur, Bofur, Bombur and Thorin!

While I agree with most of what has been said, there's a couple things to bear in mind when levelling criticism for such decisions.

For one, there are thirteen dwarves here to share a limited amount of screentime. In a novel you can afford to develop personality a lot more, and the authour relies on your imagination to visualize them and has the advantage of using the character's names when referring to them. In a movie, they don't all shout their names each time they do something or talk. So what's a filmmaker to do in order to keep them all separate in the audience's eye? He has to give each of them distinctive looks and different weapons, all visual cues to help the viewer associate certain traits with the names they hear initially, like: Kili is the handsome young dwarf with the odd-shaped sword, and Fili is the blonde one with the two cleavers. Done.

If they all looked like copies of Gimli, with similar beards, builds, axes, and armour, you would lose track pretty quickly of who is who, and that's a problem in a movie like this, with thirteen principal characters of that nature. I for one am happy that they won't be difficult to tell apart visually besides Thorin. Give PJ a little bit of latitude in this. Furthermore, I think it would be silly to assume dwarves must look homogenous as a race. Sure there are certain traits that we all commonly associate with them, but every race has diversity, not just humans. The elves in LOTR, while similar in many respects, were still individual enough, and the hobbits were just as varied as humans. Of course, everyone was played by human actors, but that's beside the point. If you think that every member of every race should look alike, then perhaps you've been playing World of Warcraft a little bit too much.

Maybe Kili breaks the norm a little more than others, but I don't think it's worth getting bent out of shape over. At least he was in the book.

Which is why I referenced the 13th Warrior, as I think it did a great job casting people who all looked different, yet cut from the same cloth. We're talking minor adjustments here. There is a huge difference in having them all look like Gimli and then having them look like Rangers, when there's nobody to scale them to. Just look at the rest of the Dwarves in FOTR. None of them scream Gimli, yet they're definitely still Dwarves. I just don't really buy this latest shot. In any case, I'm not dwelling on the fact that one dude doesn't look like a Dwarf, so much as the hideous weapons they carry. If they put too much emphasis on the craziness and diversity of their weapons, they won't be characters themselves. This isn't Mortal Kombat or something.


But back to my Dark Knight Rises speculation based on the obscure teaser trailer...

Well put Sed, as usual.

The 13th Warrior is a fine example and a great movie. We're thinking along the same lines here. I don't want to see thirteen Gimli clones either, and even in LOTR we didn't get that. I think PJ is on the right track in making those minor adjustments that will allow us to differentiate these dwarves who will have a bit more screentime than all the other dwarves seen in LOTR with the exception of Gimli.

As for the weapons. I have to agree with you again. My argument for identification and character customization notwithstanding, our minds as lovers of fantasy are too conditioned to think of dwarves wielding only axes, warhammers, and crossbows. I have no doubt that you would be ok with them holding some swords, just not these as they don't particularly appeal to you or most of the others here. If they make them too outlandish, then you're right, this becomes Mortal Kombat.

I actually e xp ected to see lots of Dwarven swords in this. But the way they look? Not at all what I had in mind. Texture and geometry maybe, but overall shape? Pfft... nope.

Well so far I'm pleased except with Fili & Kili's weapons. Lets hope they're the only ones with such bad design. I think it was the Oin & Gloin pic where I didn't mind the sword design so much. (Nope, it was Nori, Dori,and Ori<-sword)

I'm sure marketing is making some decisions, "Gotta give those collectors something new", and on that note, I am glad to see that my collection will not consist of nothing but axes when doing a dwarf display (this of course assumes someone will pick up the license).

I am very pleased over all with the costuming and hair design work. While I e xp ected some negative comments evolving from what they show us, so far I'm hoping for over-all thumbs up, especially next year when we finally get to release. I'm starting to think that these two films are going to weigh in equal to LOTR (which would be a really nice thing to have happen).

http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/ ... warves.jpg

A female columnist on TORn has chimed in on Kili being "Hot", so I guess one for the ladies is okay by me.

...and these are the three most ridiculous looking of the bunch so far. However, I'm thinking the same thing as Val, that PJ had to do something to distinguish them from each other in the viewers' eyes, and making them visually different was obviously it.

Interesting and cool. Glad to see that Bombur is suitably portly, and that in the description, they allude to the fact that these three are not of Durin's House. A nice touch, and though I'm not sure if it came from PJ or just the authour of the caption, but at least someone is paying attention.

As for the weapons, I'm sure this is going to spark debate once again. Bofur is holding a dwarf-typical warhammer with what looks to be a mattock's head on the opposite side of the weapon's head. Bifur is holding a bladed spear, but I can't tell what Bombur's weapon is. It looks like he's either holding a mace, or what looks to be like a massive pommel for something else and the weapon is slung at his waist. What would require such a huge counterweight, I don't know.

Only Balin, Dwalin, and Thorin left.

P.S. - Has there been any news of casting for Dain Ironfoot?

Well coming from someone that has never read the Hobbit and not being familiar with the back story of these characters, but when I first saw this latest picture, I said "they look like coal miners" and low and behold after reading the article it says they are descendents of coal miners and iron workers. So I guess in those terms, PJ got the look of these characters right on

When I saw the picture of Bombur, I laughed out loud!

Ten years ago I asked myself is Balin going to wield what later (chronologically) became Gimli's battle axe. In a few hours we'll find out.

[quote=""ed209""]Ten years ago I asked myself is Balin going to wield what later (chronologically) became Gimli's battle axe. In a few hours we'll find out.[/quote]

Ed, that's such a minor detail in the grand scheme of things, but I'm dying to find out. PJ will be the god of continuity if he gets that one right.

Of course, I remember having a debate with some folks about this very subject here not too long ago. You see, during Balin's e xp edition to Moria, which happens after the Hobbit but before LOTR, he recovers Durin's Axe in the ruins and claims it for himself. So, did PJ include this little detail in his movie or not? Why is it important? Well, if he did, then the axe that Gimli pulls out of Balin's tomb and uses hecenforth should be Durin's Axe, which will not be the same axe Balin will be using in the Hobbit since he hadn't discovered it yet. However, if PJ didn't go into that level of unmentioned backstory and the axe in the tomb was just Balin's regular axe, then it stands to follow we should be seeing him carrying in the Hobbit.

Make sense?

In other words, PJ could go either way, and we could still technically claim he's right.

[quote=""Valkrist""]Ed, that's such a minor detail in the grand scheme of things, but I'm dying to find out. PJ will be the god of continuity if he gets that one right.

Of course, I remember having a debate with some folks about this very subject here not too long ago. You see, during Balin's e xp edition to Moria, which happens after the Hobbit but before LOTR, he recovers Durin's Axe in the ruins and claims it for himself. So, did PJ include this little detail in his movie or not? Why is it important? Well, if he did, then the axe that Gimli pulls out of Balin's tomb and uses hecenforth should be Durin's Axe, which will not be the same axe Balin will be using in the Hobbit since he hadn't discovered it yet. However, if PJ didn't go into that level of unmentioned backstory and the axe in the tomb was just Balin's regular axe, then it stands to follow we should be seeing him carrying in the Hobbit.

Make sense?

In other words, PJ could go either way, and we could still technically claim he's right.[/quote]

I think that discussion was with me because I asked when I bought the gimli's battle axe replica if we would see it in the Hobbit. So Balin and Dwalin are next, I wonder if they'll put a photo of Bilbo and Gandalf on with Thorin. Can't wait to see what Thorin looks like

What the bloody hell is PJ doing to these dwarves!? These three looks even worse than the previous 5... Christ, this is sooo wrong...

You know, I'd honestly rather have some silly Itaril character than these ugly ass dwarves. None of them look remotely the same, except for the first 2. Bah.

[quote=""Darlak""]None of them look remotely the same, except for the first 2. Bah.[/quote]

But they aren't supposed to look the same. Each Dwarf will have his own personailty and style. Like Val has said, PJ has tried to give them their own distinctive features

[quote=""Elvenguard13""]But they aren't supposed to look the same. Each Dwarf will have his own personailty and style. Like Val has said, PJ has tried to give them their own distinctive features[/quote]


Of course they need to be different. The audience has to be able to tell them apart, know which is which, and what not. But this? This is ridiculous. They're TOO different. Way too different.

They should've made them all short, stocky, and slightly fat, before working out the differences.

And all the different weapons they're carrying? Ridiculous. I mean, there's a spear, a mace, a warhammer, an axe, a pair of cleavers, and a two-handed sword, among other things I have no idea in hell what are supposed to be. They really should've stuck to axes, maces, and hammers. Still babbling about the fact that you need to be able to tell them apart? Well, the weapons don't have to look remotely the same, despite being weapons of the same TYPE.

I mean, look at, say, the elven swords and knives in LOTR. They're all slender, curved blades, clearly elven in design. Yet they're all very different. Hadhafang(?), Haldir's sword, Legolas' knives, the HEWS, and so on. All very different, all curved elven swords. Just think about what you could do to 13 dwarven weapons, yet make them all different. Hell, some could even wield pick-axes.

Honestly Darlak, if this is your worst complaint about this movie before it's all said and done, you should consider yourself extremely lucky.

By the way, no one is babbling here; we're discussing the issue like adults and rationalizing why things are the way they are. Your stance and argument loses a lot of credibility if you simply resort to insulting the intelligence of others.

I see your point Darlak. I still like the look of them but I know that they aren't to everybody's taste. Weta may e xp lain something about the design of the weapons and why they vary. But I suggest that no one lets the designs of the Dwarves ruin the movies for them. You may come to like them, in time.

I'm sitting here with a big smile on my face for two reasons;
1- I got a real kick out of Bifur, Bofur, and especially Bombur
2- As usual the criticism is mostly cry baby, whah! whah! They didn't do what I wanted; backseat driving crap.

Trying to picture all these guys in the book wasn't easy, so I'm really thrilled to have someone else throw their interpretation of them at me. They're all great so far in my mind. The Fili/Kili weapons were the worst of all but I'm completely pleased to see that the whole troupe IS NOT carrying a bunch of similar weaponry.

The diversity is awesome!
Those of you who chose to sing the blues about this will probably do so forever and a day. Fine, complaining is your tour de force.... pfft!

It's all good and fun to me. I can't wait to see a group pic of the whole troupe. I e xp ect the interactions of between all of them to be quite hilarious, a much needed relief before the whole thing goes dark, which it most certainly will.

Fun! Fun! Fun! Just go with it and enjoy!

Or NOT! Whah! Whah! Whah!

Umm, Thranduil, *** was that?

You should lay off the acid dude.

[quote=""Thranduil""]I'm sitting here with a big smile on my face for two reasons;
1- I got a real kick out of Bilfur, Bofur, and especially Bombur
2- As usual the criticism is mostly cry baby, whah! whah! They didn't do what I wanted; backseat driving crap.

Trying to picture all these guys in the book wasn't easy, so I'm really thrilled to have someone else throw their interpretation of them at me. They're all great so far in my mind. The Fili/Kili weapons were the worst of all but I'm completely pleased to see that the whole troupe IS NOT carrying a bunch of similar weaponry.

The diversity is awesome!
Those of you who chose to sing the blues about this will probably do so forever and a day. Fine, complaining is your tour de force.... pfft!

It's all good and fun to me. I can't wait to see a group pic of the whole troupe. I e xp ect the interactions of between all of them to be quite hilarious, a much needed relief before the whole thing goes dark, which it most certainly will.

Fun! Fun! Fun! Just go with it and enjoy!

Or NOT! Whah! Whah! Whah! [/quote]

I think the pic of Bifur, Bofur and Bombur gave you more than just a kick

that really made me laugh, Thrand!

[quote=""Darlak""]Umm, Thranduil, *** was that?

You should lay off the acid dude.[/quote]



I'm with Dar here. I saw the recent picture and merely shrugged, thinking the fat dude looked more like something out of a Tim Burton claymation, but at this point I'm open-minded, despite my personal taste toward all of this. This is not about being a crybaby, it's about having a lot of invested care in what they're doing. It's the easiest thing in the world for someone to sit back and go "it's not a big deal! Get over it! Stop whining!" when it's clear the designs are either to your taste, or simply not of interest to you. You could call that backseat driving just as well.

Do I hate these designs? Nah. Just the blades suck, really. Am I disappointed? So far, but Oin and Gloin look great. Will it ruin the movie for me? Nope. But the point is, Darlak and I are seeing a mid-ground to be had here. If you're not, that's fine. But don't say we're whining when we're having a discussion about how we think it could have been done better in our eyes. In other words, stop whining about our impressions.

Knee-jerk praise and appreciation for literally everything promotes laziness and mediocrity. It's good to think objectively and critically, otherwise we'd have no aspiration or quality to strive for. Remember that.

You're taking a middle-ground approach, Sed. Darlak is not. Of course, he's entitled to it, but his delivery can leave a lot to be desired. It's fine to criticize what PJ is doing, but don't demean those that are ok with it. To claim that the opposing view is just "babbling" is an insult.

That's my message to him: stop throwing your opinion out like it's law and then attacking others who disagree. Thranduil, your response adds up to retaliation and just feeds the fire.

I'll make you guys a deal: return to discussing the topic of this thread, or it gets locked. No one here wants that, I'm sure. One more smartass dig at someone else, and you get banned. Clear?

My patience is at an end.

Discussion over.

I know you said end of discussion Val, so delete this post if you feel it's right, but at least read it first, as I believe I have a right to e xp lain myself.

First off, I'd like to apologize for the whole "babbling" thing. English is my second language, and although I like to think myself somewhat educated in the English language, there's still lots of words and stuff I don't yet know or don't fully understand. The word "babbling", ridiculous as it is, appears to be one such word. I really had no idea that it could be so insulting, and I did in no way mean to insult anyone. But hey, at least I know where to put my apostrophes, right?

I am also fully aware that my opinions are, from time to time, presented in a vulgar manner. I really can't help it. But let me assure you all that I really do respect your opinions, even though it may not always seem that way. It's just that I really love that book, and I don't want PJ to **** it up.

So how is it, that the looks of a few dwarves can ruin the whole movie for me? Well, I've always been extremely concerned with the looks of things. I've played a ****load of MMO's during the past few years, and I've never cared about being best or most 1337, it's always been about how my characters look. Hell, I've got some 2 GB of screenshots, most of them of my characters at various locations. I've also played alot of car racing games, and most of the time I end up buying and styling cars more than I actually drive them. It's just the way it is. So could the looks of these dwarves ruing the movie for me? Absolutely. Too bad for me? Hell yeah it is, but it doesn't change my opinion.

If I have insulted anyone with my posts, I really am sorry.


Now, are there any more dwarf pics out yet?

No need to e xp lain yourself concerning why you're concerned (LOL) about the looks, Darlak. Sometimes I'm told I take things too seriously, or dwell on a trivial matter when it comes to movies, games, or stories in general. And I have to say... actually, the problem is people who don't take them seriously (not implying anyone here falls under this category). Think about it. Movies are a huge collaborative process, and when we have entire teams devoted to designing every millimeter of it, I'd say it's worth taking notice of. I'd say it's worth thinking about and having passion for. Some people couldn't care less, and some will love it either way. But don't ever feel the need to e xp lain why you think the way you do.

All these blu-ray covers for example. How many times do I cringe and complain about some horrible cover, only to have people go "pfft it's such a small thing to complain about" -- Uh, not to me. When I buy a movie like Last of the Mohicans, which has had amazing publicity shots and other marketing posters over the years, only to end up with some photoshopped garbage, that's pretty sad! When I bought Metal Gear Solid 4 for the PS3 I made sure to find the Limited Edition case, because for the past few games Yoji Shinkawa's stunning artwork has always adorned the covers. That was always a part of the entire package for me. It's not MGS without Shinkawa. And yet the standard release had some lazy CG model slapped on there.

It's about striving for potential, really. And when you see someone getting paid to churn out crap that you know could be better, it's no small thing to the individual recognizing that, especially when you care a great deal about the material (I mean... anybody see the Conan the Barbarian blu-ray cover yet???? Photoshopped BS, and yet the original painted theatrical poster is unbeatable and masterful... yet we get some hack throwing layers together in PS and slapping the title on there).

I'm not saying all (or any) of this applies to what we see here in the Hobbit. However, the reasoning behind what you might think, applies. I just don't think it's as extreme, but if you're less-than-pleased with the designs, it's 100% understandable by me. So your apology for the tone is warranted, but your justification of your views is unnecessary!

I remember wondering if this film will ever be made because lawsuits, and bad corporate management, were the problem.
Then it got the green light, and since then all I 've seen is the same people who made these films, go back and do exactly what was done before.

Hind sight being 20/20;

Weta Workshop is full of the best talent, and same people, who gave me The Lord of the Rings.
It has e xp anded and become more than it was 10 years ago. They have done enough to become one of the primary FX outlets in the world.

We have the same director of what is, and will last for a long time as, one of the greatest films ever made.

So I plan to go back to the Middle Earth they sent me too last time; New locations.

I plan to get what I'm given. Where I was taken the last time was great, so considering all of the same people are doing this, I plan to enjoy the ride.

I don't go to Disney World to have a lousy time.

I e xp ect to go on a journey with these dwarves who are being presented to me. I have no intention of letting what I'm being handed become bad, unbecoming, wrong, not good enough, could be better, or, deter me from believing that what we are going to get is anything less than what I got 10 years ago.

Who truly is making these films is what I'm interested in, and what they are showing us is what we get.

All said and done, I like what I'm seeing, and I plan on enjoying my return to Middle Earth.

No Darlak, I won't delete your post.

I said end of discussion, but I was referring to the ugly tone it had taken and all the personal needling.

You apology is accepted, at least for my part. English is not my first language either and I remember well my struggles with it at first.

That said, I would followup on your comments and Sed's that what we are really talking about here is our deep-seated passion for the topic at hand. There's no need to apologize for your position and emotions on the subject, only be mindful of how you present it to others. I think you get that.

I've had my share of rants here and elsewhere, especially on the subject of Itaril. That should tell you that I feel as passionately about all this as most of you posting here do. The trick is to not rip into somebody who disagrees with you. Feel free to deconstruct their position, but don't attack the person's character simply because they feel differently about it.

We are all here united in our love for the potential in these movies. Let's share, argue, laugh, preview, conjecture, and all of that other fun stuff with civility and respect. Please.

So, just as an exercise, and because I think this forum is a good barometer and sampling of LOTR fans in general, let's see where our opinions lie so far, and what direction that is leaning in. Perhaps that will give us an idea as to what the overall reaction will be?

On the topic of the how the dwarves look so far, with a % gauge, with 100% being total acceptance:

Valkrist - liking it, with some minor reservations - 85%
Sedhal - mostly disliking it, but mainly the weapons - 50%
Darkak - hates it but warming up - 30%
Thranduil - optimistic and positive - 95%
Ed - hated it but coming around with caution - 60%
Olorin - doesn't sound impressed - 50%
Elvenguard - loves it - 100%
Morgulmike - seems to be in the middle - 50%
Bladecollector - likes it - 75%
Jamanticus - middle of the road - 50%

Then there's those who have posted but have yet to e xp ress a clear opinion: Swordsicle, Fingolfin, and Deimos. I gave Darlak and Ed 10% because they both seem ok with Oin and Gloin. - now changed

Of course, this is just my observation. Feel free to correct me on your stance or percentage of acceptance. For now, taking the average, the dwarves are coming in at: 58.3% approval rating.

Update - 65% approval rating.

[quote=""Valkrist""]So, just as an exercise, and because I think this forum is a good barometer and sampling of LOTR fans in general, let's see where our opinions lie so far, and what direction that is leaning in. Perhaps that will give us an idea as to what the overall reaction will be?

On the topic of the how the dwarves look so far, with a % gauge, with 100% being total acceptance:

Valkrist - liking it, with some minor reservations - 80%
Sedhal - mostly disliking it, but mainly the weapons - 50%
Darkak - hates it - 10%
Thranduil - loves it - 100%
Ed - hates it - 10%
Olorin - doesn't sound impressed - 50%
Elvenguard - loves it - 100%
Morgulmike - seems to be in the middle - 50%
Bladecollector - likes it - 75%

Then there's those who have posted but have yet to e xp ress a clear opinion: Swordsicle, Fingolfin, and Deimos. I gave Darlak and Ed 10% because they both seem ok with Oin and Gloin.

Of course, this is just my observation. Feel free to correct me on your stance or percentage of acceptance. For now, taking the average, the dwarves are coming in at: 58.3% approval rating. [/quote]

How analytical of you, LOL! But I guess you gauged my reaction about correctly. I'm less than impressed with most of the weapons, and as I mentioned before, weapons are not that big a deal with me. I pictured axes, hammers, and so forth, but not swords or some of the odd looking things. I was shocked initially by the costume design, since most of them look so regal. I've also had concerns in the back of my mind since it was announced that the only person from the production side not returning from LOTR was Ngila Dickson, the costume designer (due to schedule conflicts). Her costumes for LOTR was just the cat's pajamas, to use an appropriate metaphor. They were spot-on perfect. So when I heard someone else was doing the costumes this time, I was disappointed. That perhaps colors my impression of the new costumes. Lastly, in the makeup area, it seems that even though this crew appears to be wearing far fewer prosthetics, they look less real than Dwarves in LOTR. I think that may be because the wigs seem more wiggy.

So, your analytical bent inspired one in me, I suppose. But I think that sums up my opinion for the moment. I don't necessarily think they look bad, just different from e xp ectations (though the hairstyle on a couple of them...yow! And I think one borrow his cap from Doug and Bob MacKenzie).

Well, I'm not just ok with Oin and Gloin, I love them. Also, I don't yet know which is Fili and which is Kili, but the blonde one looks quite ok as well, apart from his hideous cleavers of course. Could be a little fatter. As for all the others, horrible.

I just hope the rest of the dwarves, Orcrist, and Smaug lives up to my e xp ectations. And everything else of course, but those three are my main concerns.

Actually, I'm especially concerned about Smaug. Hollywood gets dragons wrong 90% of the time, but luckily they've got some fantastic artwork to inspire them. Is it clear who will voice Smaug? I really hope there's any truth to those rumours we heard a while back about Bill Nighy playing Smaug.

I'd say your right on with me Val... I'm a bit confused with the weapons on some of those dwarves. I think the costumes look nice, some of the hairstyles are a bit, strange. Coming from someone who will probably start reading the book here in the next couple of weeks, I don't know anything about their personalities, I dont know if those costumes fit the characters.

I do think they need need to look different, you have 13 individual dwarf characters, I dont know how large their roles are, but 13 named dwarves with speaking parts and not only that, for someone clueless as me about them as individuals, as far as the groups, as they have been released have names that are SUPER similar, so there needs to be some substantial differences, so the average, as well as the hardcore fan can look and know who is Ori, Dori or Nori after the first scene or 2 they are shown. It draws away from the movie if you don't know who these characters are.

All of us in the forums, as far as I know, are human, but if you stuck us in a group, I am sure we would look different, some of us may be tall, or short, or have short hair, long hair, blond hair, brown hair, bald, facial hair, no facial hair, etc.

If you follow me on the Trek discussions, one of my biggest gripes is how the alien races ALL LOOK THE SAME as each other... for example, ALL Vulcans and Romulans have the same haircut, really, do all humans have the same haircut, no.

I don't want to speak for other people, but I think the reason Oin and Gloin are so popular with their looks are they have a template with Gimli, we all know Gimli, and there should be some family resemblance, so their is going to be some familiarity with those characters, so they are triggering in us what a dwarf should look like, because we see some Gimli.

Peculiar, sometimes crude-looking weapons... unique, but some strike me as just odd. Really don't know what to think of these Dwarves. Well, apart from Oin and Gloin. Love them.

[quote=""Darlak""]Actually, I'm especially concerned about Smaug. Hollywood gets dragons wrong 90% of the time, but luckily they've got some fantastic artwork to inspire them. Is it clear who will voice Smaug? I really hope there's any truth to those rumours we heard a while back about Bill Nighy playing Smaug.[/quote]

Nighy will not be playing Smaug; someone named Benedict Cumberbatch will. TORN has a handy cast directory here: http://www.theonering.net/torwp/the-hobbit/cast/

I am concerned a bit about the design of Smaug also. After Guillermo del Toro bowed out of the project, he talked about some of his design ideas. His notions for Smaug just sounded bizarre, and I hope they were dropped in the wake of his departure.

Something I really enjoyed about LOTR was that they allowed Billy Boyd to speak with his native Scottish accent; they didn't make him "do" a fake English accent. I wonder how that's going to go with the dwarves? Since they come from various areas of ME, it could be quite understandable if there were variations - accents per se. It could be kind of strange though to have 3 dwarves who are all from the same place, yet one actor sounds Welsh, one Irish and one from East London!

Hmm, looked up an interview on youtube with this Benedict Cumberbatch dude to hear his voice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmAIOgdbICw

I'm really not quite sure about that guy, might sound right when he tries to do a sort of evil voice if you know what I mean.

Interesting thing is, he stars together with Martin Freeman in some TV series named Sherlock, With Benedict as Sherlock and Martin as Watson. I guess we now know how this Benedict guy landed the role of Smaug...

While looking for a new dwarf pic, I found this: http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/ ... s07123.jpg

The first 7 dwarves in one pic. I actually think they look better when you see them all next to each other.

I think for Smaug we'll get something along the lines of John Howe's interpretation. And while I absolutely adore Mr. Howe's other depictions of pretty much everything, I can say Smaug is the one thing I dislike. His Smaug is too... stereotypical anglo-dragon. Too much of an alligator head. It really looks like the generic type you'd find at a flea market as a pewter statuette. I think a style along the lines of Reign of Fire (IMO best dragon depiction to film ever) would be a good footing.

As for speaking... I think I've mentioned this before, but the best job at a talking animal in cinematic history (I'll fight anyone who disagrees) is the wolf from the Neverending Story! If PJ has that on his mind, I'm sure Smaug will turn out great. That's the one talking animal I didn't laugh at... I didn't second-guess... it worked so well.

Have you lot seen Balin and Dwalin yet?

here is the pic, sorry its small, its all I could find:

[quote=""Valkrist""]You see, during Balin's e xp edition to Moria, which happens after the Hobbit but before LOTR, he recovers Durin's Axe in the ruins and claims it for himself. So, did PJ include this little detail in his movie or not? Why is it important? Well, if he did, then the axe that Gimli pulls out of Balin's tomb and uses hecenforth should be Durin's Axe, which will not be the same axe Balin will be using in the Hobbit since he hadn't discovered it yet. However, if PJ didn't go into that level of unmentioned backstory and the axe in the tomb was just Balin's regular axe, then it stands to follow we should be seeing him carrying in the Hobbit.[/quote]

Respect, man. Ten years was I thinking, and somehow I never went to e xp lore these things. (Perhaps, if it was a sword, I'd know more, but when it comes to other weapons, I really need to improve.)

[quote=""Valkrist""]
Ed - hates it - 10%

I gave Darlak and Ed 10% because they both seem ok with Oin and Gloin.[/quote]

Oh, no, I'm at some 60% now. I like the last five, especially Balin and Dwalin. They fit the atmosphere correctly.

For the 40% of disliking, mostly Fili and Kili were (are) responsible, but my rants that night were ignited by the swords, and myself thinking how the hell should I incorporate those things into my LOTR (which is about to become "Middle-Earth") display cabinet (which is not even built yet, but you get my point).

But yeah, I'm not even close to 10% this morning, I still believe the movie is going to be brilliant, with or without the Kili-elf.

I'm just being cautious, like every one of us should be.

Cheers.