I think a style along the lines of Reign of Fire (IMO best dragon depiction to film ever) would be a good footing.

Actually Sed, I really disagree here. True, the dragons in reign of fire were wonderful, but they didn't look intellectual at all.

I think they should make Smaug slender and long, almost worm like, sort of like a typical Norse dragon (no, not because I'm Norwegian) with a slender head, but now quite like Howe's paintings.

Sort of like this, but without the giant lower-jaw: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catal ... prod790846

That's an old miniature, so it suffers from the typical "classic look" some GW miniatures have, but you get the idea.

But I think the part of Smaug they should work the most at, is his eyes. They really need to look right.




As for the two new dwarves... YES! YES! YES! Finally we get another air of good looking dwarves. I especially love the big guy and his hammer.

My main concern with Smaug is whether he will have four limbs or six. Dragons don't exist of course, but if they did, they should theoretically only have four: two legs and two clawed wings. However, I'm just too married to the idea and depiction of dragons that have arms also. Most Tolkien artists must have been also because Smaug and other dragons of Middle-earth (winged ones at least,) were drawn or painted with the classical two arms, two legs, and two wings. The other thing is that having arms just makes a dragon seem more intelligent somehow, and less beastial. I know that sounds odd, but I just can't pin down what it is about seeing a dragon with arms versus one without. I guess it lends them a more human appearance, and I think that would fit in well with Smaug. I can't see him poring over the gold coins and treasures of his hoard with those awkward claws halfway down the wings.

Balin and Dwalin - love them, and they look more like traditional dwarves, so that should cool some tempers.

Thanks Ed.

Doesn't look like Balin is holding the axe at all but has some kind of mace instead. It would seem then that the battle-axe that Gimli pulls out of Balin's tomb is indeed Durin's fabled axe. Either that, or Balin has more than one weapon in this movie and we will see that axe yet. I really love Dwalin's warhammer. That thing just screams "bring on the pain!"

[quote=""Valkrist""] I really love Dwalin's warhammer. That thing just screams "bring on the pain!" [/quote]

Yes, and it screams to me "Start saving up for one!"

Hopefully a replica will be made

I've updated the "Dwarf Approval Meter" post with Darlak and Ed warming up a bit, and with Jamanticus throwing in his thoughts.

Approval has inched upward from 58.3 to 65%.

I think Thorin will either make this number leap forward or sink the book altogether. Much rides on him.

Ah, I totally forgot the whole four limbs VS. six limbs issue. I must say though, I'm pretty certain Smaug will have two pairs of legs and a set of wings, nothing else would make much sense. What was Tolkiens description?

Anyways, in the Children of Hurin there was a wingless dragon, with 4 limbs, which might imply that a normal dragon was pretty much the same, only with wings as well. Meh, I don't know.



Oh and Val, I think Balin's weapon is a sheathed sword, not a mace. Here's to hoping it's not hideous...

Oh, and about Balin's/Durin's axe, is it supposed to be some kind of legendary enchanted battle-axe? If so, yay for Gimli, I never knew.

[quote=""Darlak""]I'm pretty certain Smaug will have two pairs of legs and a set of wings, nothing else would make much sense. What was Tolkiens description?[/quote]


Conversation with Smaug


The Death of Smaug

Guess we'll see a 6 limbed Smaug then, thanks Ed =)

Well I hate to bring the meter down but giving me 100% isn't quite right. I don't like Kili & Fili's weapons (if replicas are made they would be at the bottom of my purchase list).
Kili is done for the ladies (and I'm fine with that in terms of audience relations), but as I said, he needs to be fattened up, and his hair needs some braiding to actually make him look more dwarvish (but I feel like I'm stereotyping him just saying that). Is it okay to send a message that a dwarf can be attractive? Why not? I think the dwarves are very proud of their culture. One in 13? Probably more like one in a 1000, and the heartthrob happens to be in the troupe? Whatever, it's okay.

Again I think the entire troupe picture is going to be the real test. What I'm really thrilled about here is that we are not getting Snow White and 13 dwarfs. As I said, the diversity is impressive, and that's my biggest thumbs up for this .

I don't know if any of you have clicked on the images and gone in to examine in close up, but the detailing in this costuming is typical Weta impressive. As Sir Richard has said, they try to bring the richness of a culture to life showing centuries of tradition.

I prefer to remain optimistic & positive so I'm a 95% so far.

Smaug can make or break the film. Benedict Cumberbatch is very talented, and I think Weta Digital will use everything he's got to offer. I'm thinking that INNER character will be awesome, but his appearance is what really makes a dragon. I'm with you Val on the 4 limb dragon, bats are creepy when they crawl around. And I agree with you Darlak, that a more serpentine dragon is the proper type based on my visual impression from Tolkien's lit.

Again, I'm chomping at the bit for that pic of the whole troupe.

The reason I mentioned the RoF dragons was because of their bat-like qualities. I can't see how that wouldn't make sense, Darlak. You say six-limbed dragons make more sense, but in reality... point to any animal equivalent to that in nature (insects don't count). And Pegasus isn't real. Basing the dragon on the bat not only grounds it in reality, but gives the body good balance IMO. I mean... what does he do with his four legs when flying? They just dangle there? It looks like you picked a toy horse up that's still trying to gallop despite not touching the ground.

I have no problem with Smaug being worm-like, but the head should be more broad than long, I think. And although you say the dragons in RoF didn't look intellectual, it was because they never spoke or anything. Picture their faces with the demeanor of Smaug and it changes. Smaug needs to not only come across intimidating through the voice, but the appearance as well. I'd go for a meaner look, personally. But of course, there are lots of things I'd change from those RoF dragons to reflect Smaug a little better in the first place.


Lastly, when taking the Fell-beast into consideration, you have to lean even more so to the six-limbed dragon, as I doubt they'd do something similar.

Whichever dwarf that is on the left of the Balin - Dwalin pic posted by EG, man is he going to have trouble walking, never mind fighting, in those Tinkerbell faerie boots.

No way can he maintain his balance with curved up toes.

[quote=""Deimos""]Whichever dwarf that is on the left of the Balin - Dwalin pic posted by EG, man is he going to have trouble walking, never mind fighting, in those Tinkerbell faerie boots.

No way can he maintain his balance with curved up toes.[/quote]

Its Balin hehehe

Updated for Thranduil. Total now at 64.5%

I'm ok with Kili being handsome and slim. The guy is barely out of his teens in dwarf-terms. I think it's ok to not have yet acquired a fat gut that will surely ensue from all that "malt beer" and "meat off the bone" that Gimli raves about.

Sed, I totally get what you're saying about the dragons, but just like the Pegasus, they are not real, they are fantasy creatures, so why not six limbs? Thranduil nailed it for me when he mentioned bats. Way too creepy and animalistic. I'm with him and Darlak on this one. Just tuck your arms up when you fly, Smaug.

Oh well. Three brand new items to add to the collection. I guess it'll be a separate display cabinet, but embedded in the same "Middle-Earth Wall."

[quote=""Darlak""]Oh and Val, I think Balin's weapon is a sheathed sword, not a mace. Here's to hoping it's not hideous...[/quote]

It's a mace.

I didn't know Dwarves were capable of going bald :p

Thanks for the backup, Ed. I thought it was a sword too at first, then I followed the length of the weapon more closely and saw that the head was too oddly shaped even for a dwarven sword. It would be way too off-balance with a diamond-shaped blade like that. The only conclusion I could draw is that it was a mace.

So, I guess we'll get a pic of Thorin and Orcrist in a few hours =D

Whoever links it here first, will receive screen-used Orkrist with signed CoA and memorabilia.

Yeah it's true. Go find that pic folks! =D

What will be funny will be when they make the scale cardbord standees for these guys, and you have 13 of these 4ft tall guys all standing around your house :p

[quote=""ed209""]Whoever links it here first, will receive screen-used Orkrist with signed CoA and memorabilia.[/quote]

Hmmmm, I win!

http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/ ... mitage.jpg

Oh... my... ... ...

[quote=""Grima Wormtongue""]Hmmmm, I win!

http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/ ... mitage.jpg
[/quote]


my jaw literally dropped so hard to the floor.... ow!

its all bruised now.... OMG!!!!!!!!! I cant put into words what I want to say.....

I think orcrist may be curved though looking at that pic

My eyes melted when I've looked upon this sword. This is... oh my...

Val, this thing...



...skyrocketed me to 90%!

I have to have it. I live for this ****.

Check this wallpaper:

http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/ ... 8x1536.jpg

Grima... Congrats, champ!

Thorin certainly looks totally bad-a**. I'm not sure what I think of the asymmetrical design of Orcrist. I'll let you guys all debate that.

Getting back to Thorin, he looks, to me anyway, more than a little like a Klingon, somewhat like Gowron himself.

one problem I have though is if it is actually curved then all my plans for getting a replica of this have gone flying out of the window...
why does life have to be so cruel sometimes?

Hopefully a hand forged replica will be made, please, please, please

[quote=""Olorin""]Thorin certainly looks totally bad-a**. I'm not sure what I think of the asymmetrical design of Orcrist. I'll let you guys all debate that.

Getting back to Thorin, he looks, to me anyway, more than a little like a Klingon, somewhat like Gowron himself.[/quote]


He looks EXACTLY like Gowron, minus the forehead ridges!!

I don't think the blade itself is curved but has more of a "leaf design" kind of a cross between Glamdring and Sting. Also looks to have a wooden handle and not leather wrapped.
Might that be the scabbard on his back as well?

Yes, Ed... wow... but a couple of observations:

1 - Is it really asymmetrical or are we just getting that impression from the fact that he's holding it on edge toward the camera?

2 - If it only has one edge, like it appears to for now, I will be disappointed. While it will match many of the other elven blades seen, it will look nothing like its mate, Glamdring, which brings me to my next point...

3 - Why does Orcrist look like a mate to Sting rather than Glamdring? Look at the shape of the crosspiece and the curled carving on the blade and tell me what that reminds you of.

Overall, I'm quite puzzled by this sword until it is seen in its entirety.

As for Thorin... love him!

[quote=""Valkrist""]Yes, Ed... wow... but a couple of observations:

1 - Is it really asymmetrical or are we just getting that impression from the fact that he's holding it on edge toward the camera?

2 - If it only has one edge, like it appears to for now, I will be disappointed. While it will match many of the other elven blades seen, it will look nothing like its mate, Glamdring, which brings me to my next point...

3 - Why does Orcrist look like a mate to Sting rather than Glamdring? Look at the shape of the crosspiece and the curled carving on the blade and tell me what that reminds you of.

Overall, I'm quite puzzled by this sword until it is seen in its entirety.

As for Thorin... love him! [/quote]

what led me to the belief that it's curved is if you look at the scabbard on his back one side is larger, and of course we can only see one part of the guard. So I assumed that there would only be that part of the guard protecting his hand because he wouldn't really need it on the other side because he would hold it, with the blade curving back towards him.

Of course that scabbard may not be for orcrist, it may be something completely different, I hope its not a curved blade for the replica and UK law reasons but it still looks amazing as does Thorin, exactly how I imagined him when I read the book.

also another thing that springs to mind is if that is his scabbard it could just be a photoshop issue, Kili did end up with 6 fingers afterall

I emailed weta asking if it was a curved blade so I'll let you lot know when and if they reply. I was also praising them on their work because I love it

Simply amazing... Btw, looking at the blown up pic Grima linked to, it's definately asymmetrical. It's quite evident if you look at where the hilt meets the handle. Looks like it might still be double-edged though.

I wonder if the handle does have leather wrapped on it but its become aged and cracked, making it look a bit like wood. If you look at Gandalf's sword and the scabbard for sting they are in a hell of state so perhaps thats what has happened to the handle of Orcrist

I also really love Thorin's scalemail shirt. I hope they make a replica of it, unlikely as it is.

[quote=""Darlak""]I also really love Thorin's scalemail shirt. I hope they make a replica of it, unlikely as it is.[/quote]

yes, I love his costume and the scalemail shirt is great.

I hope they release a full body photo of Thorin with Orcrist like they did with the other Dwarves

Can you really not tell it's curved? It's clearly curved.



It's [sorry to edit your edit, Val, but I'm not British] asymmetrical. That cuts it, guys.



...

Yes, I could always see the curve. I have no issue with that as Glamdring has a subtle curve also.

I guess I was just hoping that the angle was hiding the symmetry of the blade and the other half of the crosspiece, but I think that's just a flight of fancy now.

Just for clarification, when you say "curved," you mean the entire object is curved, crescent-shaped, like a scimitar, correct? There's no doubt the edges are curved (like Sting's were). But the axis is curved, that is the debate, right?

Wow, I've missed a crapton of discussion.

Anyhow, the dwarves....meh? It's not how I pictured most of them. The weapons are a bit far-out too. Orcist looks lovely, but I want to see the hilt more. I also pictured Thorin to look slightly older.

Overall, not bad I suppose. I'll reserve judgement and debate for a later day when we see more than prototype pics.

Just to help the Dwarf discussion along, here are some lightened up versions of the dwarf photos, so you can see more detail. I think the photos were played with in Photoshop to be darker than the original "as shot" photos.

And the other pics

This is just three earlier photos montaged together with the Kili/Fili image reversed before being added to the montage.

With all the major and most minor casting announced, I'm still a little concerned and disappointed that there is no mention of Dain Ironfoot. His role isn't that big, but it is a fairly important one. Considering they have cast Thror and Thrain, I'm guessing we will be treated to either a flashback prologue or some e xp osition scenes here and there. Dain would have a place in those, as well as playing a very key role at the end of the second movie. I hope the character is not lost in the shuffle. No sense giving screentime to made up crap like Tauriel/Itaril and not Dain.

I really like all the dwarves. I am very glad we don't have 13 "Gimlis" walking around with different coloured hair. Thorin: IMO should have more grey in the beard but I LOVE that he doesn't just have a long grey beard. I would have liked more salt and pepper than just pepper with a little salt. I also like that the two youngest dwarves don't have full beards. It gives realism that dwarves don't come out of the womb with beards.

Weapon wise: I personally think the ratio of axes vs swords ect isn't a problem. One has to remember that in the middle ages swords were regarded as the most noble weapon, the axe and spear were for more common soldiers. YES, I know dwarves are supposed to have more axes, I like that the leaders of these free peoples have more kingly weapons. All in all, I would have liked to have just one less club replaced with an ax totaling:

3 Axes (instead of two)
2 Hammer
1 Pike ax thing
2 Clubs (instead of three)
4 Swords

Or something that would have been cool is if Fili had two short, one-sided bearded axes for speed, kind of hatchet like.

Regarding the current discussion about approval/disapproval of the dwarves, I have to say that my overall reaction is that I like them. I agree with statements that PJ/Weta needed to differentiate the troupe enough that they wouldn't all run together for movie-goers. I still think that Kili looks more human than dwarf (and I also get that impression when looking at Thorin) but I believe that all will work out on-screen.

Going into all of this, I had to wonder what the design team would come up with. Our only references before this were instances from FOTR - the Prologue (where the dwarves are examining their rings) and Rivendell (the arrival of the dwarves + their participation in the Council Of Elrond). If anyone remembers additional scenes, please chime in.

Based on those scenes, I may have assumed that all 13 would be more like Oin and Gloin (to my eyes the only members really resembling those in FOTR). I'm looking forward to a rewarding return journey through ME. I can't wait to see what they've done with Thranduil and the Mirkwood elves!

Judging by the comments on PJ's facebook page, there are A LOT of people that are on the same page that Thorin looks like Gowron!

[quote=""BladeCollector""]Judging by the comments on PJ's facebook page, there are A LOT of people that are on the same page that Thorin looks like Gowron!

[/quote]

I think it must be the eye shadow, drawing attention to his eyes. Gowron always did that bug-eye thing, and this is somewhat reminiscent of that.

Here's something cool: someone has photoshopped all the Dwarves into one image.

http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/ ... sFinal.jpg

(I edited the post to have a clickable link to the picture to reduce the back and forth scrolling effect- BC)

Now that I see them all together with their names underneath, I can make some comments.

Bofur borrowed his hat from Doug and Bob Mackenzie (the old SCTV skit about Canadians).
Bifur has somehow gotten hold of the wig that Tina Turner wore in great big 80s success days, and died it black.
Nori's hair...I'm not even sure what to say about it. That can't be easy to maintain...bedhead and hathead would just kill it.
Dori reminds me of Kelsey Grammer for some reason.
Is Dwalin's head tattooed? Ouch!
Gloin definitely looks like he could be Gimli's father. Let's hear it for continuity!

On the whole, I like them (my snarky comments aside), and I like that they did make them look different.

Wow dude, I'm posting on my small screen at work and that picture has streched my browser for two miles to the right.

Anyhow, nice to see a full-body shot of Thorin. Gowron comparisons aside, I still think he looks the part. I do wish he had a fuller beard, like many have said, but I think that was the point in casting a handsome actor: not to bury him under a beard and prosthetics. I do hate all the pandering in movies these days, but PJ has two female writers to either side of him and that half of the audience demographics must be appealed to, I suppose.

Also, we get to see the full length and point of Orcrist. Yes, I still get a shudder of 'wrongness' at calling it Orcrist. All I see is a Sting on steroids with half the crosspiece broken off.

[quote=""Valkrist""]Wow dude, I'm posting on my small screen at work and that picture has streched my browser for two miles to the right.
[/quote]

LOL! Its 60" wide at 72 dpi

Here is a lightened 30" version

Judging by that pic of Orcrist its clearly not curved like the Elven warrior swords, it looks like Sting and Glamdring had a baby and part of the cross guard is broken off... I want to see some more pics of angles on that thing.

I wonder what John Rhys Davies thinks (if he has seen) of these dwarfs and knowing the problems he had with prostheses, come to find out some of these dwarfs aren't going to have to struggle with that, although those dwarfs are the younger ones.

I think that makes a good comparison for ages, that the younger dwarfs don't have their full beards yet, kind of like "teenager" lions without their manes.

And apparently Thorin is too good looking to have his beard

As far as I know, there's been no officially released pic of Thorin showing Orcrist in full. I think the person who did that collage for TORN simply created the rest of the sword. If you look closely, you can see a slight offset along one edge. Of course, that could just be an artifact of assembling the collage.

If you read the article on that photo on TORN, it pretty much spells out what you just speculated on: the artist says that he recreated a full-body "speculation" of Thorin, and perforce, Orcrist. Still, I think the guess is spot on, as I can't see many other ways in which that sword can end. It's still Sting on Miracle-Grow.

A couple of details I missed on the smaller versions of those pictures: Bombur's necklace is actually a braid of his hair, and his weapon is a ladle! Also, Kili has a shortbow on his back.