Re: The Hobbit

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[quote=""Olorin""]Here it is a week after the movie opened, and we have not heard from Valkrist on this topic. Have you somehow not seen it yet, or are you still composing your thoughts?[/quote]

No, I've not seen it yet. Been super busy and I have to coordinate with my wife because there's no way I can go without her, not for the first viewing anyway. I think this Sunday might be the day though.

Then I'll come back here and rip into it, making Fin and Rev weep like little girls and denounce purists as the source of all evil once again. :evil:
This Space for Rent

Re: The Hobbit

3753
[quote=""Valkrist""]

Then I'll come back here and rip into it, making Fin and Rev weep like little girls and denounce purists as the source of all evil once again. :evil: [/quote]

:crazy:

That made me laugh! :thumbs_up

Still, I'm gonna say it: I hope you enjoy the movie Val!
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

Re: The Hobbit

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[quote=""Valkrist""]Then I'll come back here and rip into it, making Fin and Rev weep like little girls and denounce purists as the source of all evil once again. :evil: [/quote]

Now that's my Santa, er, Valkrist!

Yep, watched Rudolph the other night. :)
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: The Hobbit

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Wow! 90% Val? I'm seriously shocked & happy as well. I'm glad there's more joy than negativity. :thumbs_up
"and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts- to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, to cut stones, to work in wood, and engage in all kinds of craftsmanship"

Re: The Hobbit

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I'll hold the "pleasant dreams" Rev, and Fin, You may want to wait before stowing that battle gear.

Val might have loved 90% of it, but he might also just singe your ears when he critiques that other 10%. :D

i haven't seen it yet, but from everything I've read from all of the forum members who have seen it, I'll venture this opinion: As I said about PJ's LOTR, what he got right, he got very right, and what he got wrong, well, it made me cringe and want to put a paper bag over my head so as not to be recognized in the theatre. (Except the paper bag would still have eyeholes cut in it, so i could continue to watch the movie) . So with respect to the Hobbit, I think it will be the same thing. Jaw dropping storytelling :) , and then some cringe scenes :P . And hopefully those cringe scenes will be for me also, not more than 10% of the movie.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: The Hobbit

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[quote=""RevAnakin""]I just hope Radagast isn't in that 10% because he is my tree-hugging home-dog![/quote]

I loved Radagast in the movie, as strange as he is :P

I'm looking forward to reading your review Val :thumbs_up
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

Re: The Hobbit

3765
Ok, here goes.

I'll do an amalgam of how reviews here have gone so far, basically reviewing the movie as a whole, as well as its many components. I'll do it chronologically as it happens in the story, but I may jump around a bit so bear with me. I will reference some of what you guys have said because, well... you said it first and because it will echo my sentiment in many places, it's easier to just point out my agreement or disagreement with previous words. So, if it sounds like you heard it before, you probably read it or wrote it yourself.

The techonology: against my better judgment, I opted to watch the movie for the first time in UltraAVX 3D 48fps. Why? It seems pointless to criticize PJ's decision without taking a look at it first, and I have a confession to make on top of that: for over a year now, I've had my HDTV set to TruMotion anyway, basically watching shows and Blurays with higher clarity than most, in what is called by some the "soap opera effect." To be honest, it took some getting used to, but after a while, I've never gone back and my tv remains set that way. Why did we embrace these tvs and media formats anyway if not for increased sharpness and reality? Oh, I know there are arguments made for how film 'should' look, and that grain is sometimes needed in an image, but as we move forward and filmmakers learn to adjust their techniques to keep pace with technology, things just keep looking better and better, and I don't see that as a bad thing.

Now onto the Hobbit. Because I was already mostly immune to how it would look, it didn't bother me in the least. The new frame rate was fine, what can I say? I hesitate to say that some setting must've been off in other people's viewings when they mentioned that people or things moved too fast, but far too many have complained of that for it to not actually be normal for this movie. However, and to be perfectly honest, I never noticed. The speed was just fine. In fact, it was more than fine, it was normal. The clarity and sharpness was also perfectly ok, the only downside being that it made the CGI, of which there is an overabundance (more on that later,) become all too obvious and fake. As for the 3D, someone said it added almost nothing to this movie, and there I must agree. They could have easily dispensed with it altogether. I've always considered it an unnecessary gimmick, and The Hobbit in 3D more than proved that. Were there some scenes were it proved a boon and it really enhanced things, like the eagles' flight and the vast panoramas of Middle-earth? Certainly. Was it needed or did it add anything to the other 99% of the movie. Not really.

The CGI: We're back in Middle-earth, and it seems to have been taken over by a whole new race: the CGIsters. Let's start off by saying that I completely understand why it is necessary. You can't realize a movie with that kind of vision and scope without reliance on pulling off with computers what is simply impossible or cost-prohibitive to do in real life. Having said that, not only could more judicious use of CGI have been used, it seems to be one piece of tech that isn't quite able to fool the viewer's eye yet. If we're going to have to accept movies in 48fps as the future norm, then the CGI either needs to improve to the point where it becomes seamless with the settings and actors, or the director needs to cut back a little and not ruin the e xp erience by pulling us out of it so often. A perfect example of this was Azog and his white warg. While his other orcs and wargs were more than passable in the action scenes they were in, there was simply too much focus and screentime given to Azog and his pet for him to look the way he did. In LOTR, Lurtz was perfectly and believably played by an actor in a mask and suit. Why couldn't that have been done this time? You can't give that much time and importance to an onscreen character that isn't part of a cartoon movie and then e xp ect the audience to accept it as much as the live actors because he just looked too fake. I suppose there was no help for the warg; it and the others looked as convincing as they could, but Azog was a bit too much to take.

For examples of where the CGI worked and was pretty much flawless, we have Gollum, and the stone trolls. Even the Great Goblin, difficult to portray as described without some form of CGI, was acceptable. However, this overreliance on computers is becoming too easy of a way out for filmmakers, and there is a real danger is disconnecting your audience from what they are seeing when it is painfully obvious (and clear at 48fps) that the hand is NOT faster than the eye.

Old Bilbo and Frodo: I gotta say it was great to see these two onscreen again. If the feeling of nostalgia is already large coming into this movie, seeing these scenes and their obvious connection to the start of FOTR really brings those feelings home. You're back in Middle-earth, and it feels darn good, like you never left. The minor quibble here is, and I believe it i was unavoidable until better can be done, but Olorin got it right when he said that old Bilbo looked too waxy and the computer effect used to make Ian Holm look younger delivered us a hobbit that was definitely not the same as we saw in the original movies. I'm positive he had way less wrinkles this time around.

Dale, Erebor, and Smaug: Loved the look of most it. The Lonely Mountain was suitably majestic, and the dwarven kingdom within exceeded my imagination in how it was portrayed. Dale was not so overwhelming for me because I still feel it should have had more of a 'northern' feel to it than the particular cultural type they went for. It was supposed to be different than Gondor, but it still reminded me too much of it, and the people could have easily passed for those of the far-off southern kingdom. Tolkien was very specific about the differing looks of the peoples and cultures of Middle-earth, and the Dalesmen and Lakemen of the north were as separate in racial stock from the men of Gondor as the Rohirrim from the latter. Minor nitpick, however. It has been mentioned also that Thror's depiction is not altogether worthy of redemption. I had to e xp lain to my wife that what caused Thror's greed to grow out of control was the fact that he was wearing one of the Seven Dwarven Rings of Power. Unlike the Nine, they did not have the effect that Sauron intended, only serving to increase tenfold the natural avaricious tendencies already present within dwarves. Thror succumbed to its power, and that reckless accumulation of wealth eventually brought the dragon down upon his head. I don't think it would have hurt the story any, only enhanced it, if this fact had been mentioned, but it was left out for some mysterious reason. Perhaps PJ did not want to overcomplicate things, but this would have been a nice nod to LOTR's prologue, and a bonus for the knowing fans. The end result was that Thror came out looking like an unsympathetic character that evokes little pity when Azog finishes him off.

War of the Dwarves and Orcs: This pretty much sets up the story to come for the uninitiated, and for the most part, it is fine. The timeline is severely compressed and I rue the omission of Dain at the battle because, although he is introduced verbally a litte later on, seeing him make a cameo now would have better served his intervention in the final set of events in this tale. Another divisive issue has been the setup of Azog as the recurring villain and mastermind that hounds Thorin for the better part of his life. I wasn't sure how to feel about this as the movie unfolded, but when it was over, I have to agree with most in that I saw little logic to it, other than PJ's desire to have only one identifiable major villain for the entirety of the story, until we get to Smaug, that is. As the feud gets passed down from Thror to Thorin, I saw no reason why they could not have stuck to what Tolkien wrote and passed the torch from Azog to Bolg. In fact, and though we briefly got a glimpse of Bolg in that battle, I wonder what his importance and relevance will be to the final story since it seems like everything is leading to a major confrontation between Thorin and Azog at the end. Why even bother with Bolg then? The other half of this is the revelation that everything bad that is happening to the party on their journey is being orchestrated by Azog. Again, I see the purpose as it relates to film technique in having an adversarial menace on your tail, rather than a series of seemingly disconnect random obstacles, but I must say I prefer the latter. Like Bilbo said, he is going on an adventure, which, by its very definition, includes surprises, randomness, and the une xp ected. This is what holds so much charm for me in the novel: the main obstacle of adventure is Smaug. The path to him is not easy, but it is a series of challenges, interesting on their own, each and every one of them, and I did not see the need to be told or shown that there was a master plan at work, pulling all these strings behind the scenes. It actually took some of the magic away for me. If, in the second movie, we see Azog hold some secret council with the Necromancer, connecting the two and further complicating this web of puppet-masters, then I will know for certain that PJ took it way too far.

The Une xp ected Party, and Thorin & Co.: Loved it, loved it, loved it. The Shire, Freeman as Bilbo, Ian playing Gandalf the Grey again, Armitage as Thorin, and all the dwarves with their unique looks and identities, which I hope will shine more in the two movies to come. This part of the movie did not drag on at all for me, and I think they got all in there that they needed to except for something I pointed out in an earlier post: when Gandalf gives the map and key to Thorin, there should have been a flashback with Gandalf going into Dol Guldur and finding Thrain, obtaining these two things from him before the maddened dwarf dies. The exclusion of this golden opportunity and the fact that we have seen teaser scenes with Gandalf in Dol Guldur fighting what appears to be a dwarf make me fear that PJ possibly not only altered this event from what was written, but also thinks he found a better place to put it. Even worse, it is an event which will occur in 'real time,' concurrent with the events of the story. This departure will be tough to swallow if it happens.

Trolls and Rivendell: I had a lot of misgivings about how the scene with the trolls would be handled, but aside from being a bit overly long, it was fine, snot et all. The changes from the original worked, Gandalf shared the glory with Bilbo, necessary for the development of our burglar throughout the film, and the discovery of the swords in the cave was spot on. My one pick for a glaring error with the sword scene was this: Gandalf makes a generalized statement when he gives Sting to Bilbo, saying that because it is a blade of elvish make, it will glow blue when orcs are near. Well, sorry Gandy, but so are Glamdring and Orcrist, as e xp lictly stated by yourself and Elrond later on, but do they glow blue? Uh, no. Speaking of Sting though, I like the new glowing effect much better than the one in LOTR. The very metal itself now glows a beautiful shade of blue, rather than that filmy pale glow that we saw in the previous movies. Another instance where CGI was an improvement rather than a detriment.
Onwards to the orc/warg attack, and the elven rescue. I was very ok with this, didn't feel like it was filler, my only gripe being that it is the beginning of the connection to the Azog string-pulling (which actually begins a bit earlier at Weathertop, but whatever.) Seeing elves in action is always cool (except at places they would never be, like *cough Helm's Deep cough*,) and it was fitting in this instance because they did patrol the area around Imladris. Elrond seemed to know that Gandalf would be nearby, so it was fitting. I'm glad PJ refrained from having Arwen show up and perform the rescue a second time. So far, my barf bag remains clean. The rest of Rivendell, Lindir, Elrond, the rune-reading, sword examination: loved it all. Did you guys spot those shiny versions of the Elven Warrior Helms? Very cool!

Radagast: As a student of the Istari, I've always had a very soft and totally sentimental spot in my heart for the Brown Wizard. I figured pretty much that PJ would literally have to make him dress up in a Jar-Jar Binks suit for me not to like his portrayal. Well, rest easy fans of movie Radagast, for I am one of your number. Rhosgobel was just as I pictured it, the scenes showing his concern for the animals and plants were very touching, including his reviving of Sebastian the hedgehog. I nearly teared up when the little guy died. Was not bothered at all by the bird-poop or his absent-mindeness. It all works and was very much in keeping with a being who had lost focus of his overall mission, becoming so enamoured instead of the defenseless flora and fauna of Middle-earth that other concerns seem like a far away thing for him. Still, he retains enough presence of mind to go to Dol Guldur and to then warn Gandalf later. Though the trip to the fortress is a departure from history, it works here, and Radagast was oft cited as being a messenger for the Council anyway. That he was already in southern Mirkwood and thus extremely close to Dol Guldur helped to e xp lain the change. Bunny-sled? Too much? Perhaps. Did I care that it was there? Not at all. Did it fit the character as portrayed? Most certainly.
One minor aside on the Istari: on the road, when questioned, Gandalf says that his order numbers five. When mentioning the two blue wizards, he claims that he does not remember their names. I found this to be a disservice to Gandalf and his intelligence and wisdom. Considering the importance of what they were sent to do, and the enormity of their mission, there is simply no way that one of the Maiar would forget the names of two others of his own kind, sent to do the same thing he was. They were Alatar and Pallando and Gandalf would never forget that. Why were they not named in the movie? The simple answer is that these names appear only in Unfinished Tales and PJ did not have the rights to use them. However, to get around this, Gandalf could have simply mentioned them in passing like he did, leaving out the part about forgetting the names, then moving on to Saruman and Radagast as the two names that are important to this story. It makes Gandalf look stupid, and I did not like that at all, but that's the purist in me.

The White Council and Dol Guldur: This is where things went south for me, and the majority of the 10% of my dislike for this movie lies. Deimos said it best in his last post (and loosely quoted from PJ and crew themselves): when they stick to the story, it is masterful. When they take artistic license and start to invent crap, that's what you get: more crap. I'm not talking about the White Council itself, as I loved seeing those four together. Weaving, Ian, Lee, and Blanchett were superb as always, and Lee just stood out. I wasn't too keen on Gandalf's pained look when Saruman is both mentioned and appears, and even Elrond intimates that he shares some of that misgiving. Were they already suspicious that the White Wizard was up to something? They shouldn't have been at this point in time: he was the head of both the Istari and the White Council. Why be led by the counsel of someone you are so obviously uncomfortable with? It seemed that the reactions were not only disrespectful, but also out of sync with the timeline. Yes, we know that Saruman was already out for himself at the time, but the others had no inkling of this, and the audience didn't need to be hit over the head with a bat that said "See? we told you Saruman was bad and you'll thank us again when we kill him later!"
Then comes the complete and utter crap story about the Witch-king. Honestly, what were PJ and his writers thinking of with this drivel? Did they completely forget that the nature of the Nazgul had been firmly established in their first three movies and in the minds of fandom in general? Did they forget about the prophecy and Eowyn? What was this nonsense about a death, a burial, and a tomb? No, no, and no. Did I forget to say no? Made up dreck for no purpose other than to e xp lain the presence of the Morgul blade, the appearance of the Witch-king at Dol Guldur, and the inevitable connection to the Necromancer being Sauron. To top it all off, and what is scaring me the most in all this foolishness are all the signs and comments to the fact that this Necromancer does indeed have the power to raise the dead, and that we are going to see this at work at some point, completely breaking one of the most fundamental laws of Eru, Arda, and Tolkien's writings. What, may I ask, is so wrong with the established history (already reinforced by what PJ himself showed us in his own movies - duh!) that the Nine are immortal by virtue of their rings, not by some cheap fantasy novel spell that enables Sauron to bring them back to life over and over again, at will? The Witch-king did not die! Period! Therefore, he cannot be buried and then resurrected! We know from history that Khamul, the second of the Nine was in charge of Dol Guldur while Sauron hid there to regain power and search for the Ring. I can accept Khamul being changed to the Witch-king, we are already familiar with him. I can also accept Radagast fending off the leader of the Nine and bringing back the Morgul blade as proof. What I cannot and am going to wilfully ignore is this ridiculous story they concocted to alter history in the most non-sensical of ways, destroying a lot of things in the process for those that know how wrong it all is. What I witnessed was the height of hubris when it comes to bad writing, plain and simple.

And now I must be off to a Christmas Eve dinner with family, so I must bid you adieu and leave you with Part 1 of my review to chew on. More in the next couple of days. In the meantime, feel free to agree, disagree, or cuss me out... just mind that filter! ;)
Last edited by Valkrist on Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
This Space for Rent

Re: The Hobbit

3766
Wow, I am really surprised that you liked it as well as you did! Married life has mellowed you! ;) On the whole, I still have not decided how well I like this movie, and I have seen it twice. By the second time I saw FOTR, I was liking it very well. However, The Hobbit is just not grabbing me. That may be because the story is so much slighter than LOTR, even in the book. I've read LOTR dozens of times over the decades, but I've probably only read The Hobbit 3 or 4 times. Thus, some of my "meh" attitude simply reflects how I feel about the book.

Questions and comments....

The TruMotion mode on your TV...is that a 240 Hz emulation mode? I've seen a few TVs in stores that were set that way, and I found it simultaneously repellant and irresistible, not being able to pull one's eyes away from the proverbial train wreck. It's interesting that you got used to it...I don't think I ever could. The times I saw it, it looked like cheap video, like the local evening news. I don't know that I had thought of enhanced clarity/realism being part of that, and maybe it is, but it's very jarring to me.

Changes in characterization.... I don't think Thror fared as badly here as Isildur did in LOTR. PJ has a knack for reducing complex characters to cardboard caricatures. And speaking of diminishment to characters, again Gandalf is made to look not very bright or powerful. Moreover, this time PJ even rubs our face in it by having Bilbo ask, when told about Radagast, "Is he a great wizard, or more like you?" I think that over the course not only of three movies, but even just over this one, that Bilbo shows enough growth that changes don't need to be made to emphasize it, e.g., his extemporaneous ruse about "worms in their...tubes" as a delaying tactic to give the sun time to rise, instead of the original version of Gandalf delaying them causing them to argue with each other. (Incidentally, did Martin Freeman take diction lessons from William Shatner? His speechifying had a very familiar arrhythmic cadence. :evil :)

I am hoping that some of the things you cited as missing or deficient will be remedied by the EE. I truly hope the additional length of the EE is not given over to longer versions of the Dwarven songs (good tho those were) or to invented nonsense about Morgul blades or whatever. The EE presents a real opportunity to enrich the story and bring it more into line with what Tolkien wrote, as the LOTR EEs did, and I hope they don't blow it.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: The Hobbit

3767
Maybe the stories of the necromancer are just that, stories? What if the rumors of the necromancer are the locals not understanding what the Nine are? What if they misread the nine and are just calling him the necromancer because the think he raised the dead? I see your concern, but I have yet seen any definitive proof of him actually raising anyone from the dead, breaking lore, in the movies other than tales told by locals...

Re: The Hobbit

3768
Olorin: yes, my tv uses that frequency. Trust me when I say this, if you can survive the first week or two of watching tv and blurays like that, you will get used to it, and you will never go back. Watching The Hobbit in that format was a breeze for me and not at all jarring.

On the issue of Gandalf and his dumbing-down, I wholly agree, though I think I sort of see what PJ is trying to do, although he's overdoing it in my opinion. Gandalf is a problematic character to have around in most situations because of his power. This makes him a 'deus ex machina' solution to almost any problem that the dwarven company, or even the fellowship in LOTR, could fall back on to resolve any challenge. Both Tolkien and PJ are forced to walk a very fine line by having an Istari along on a quest. Tolkien addressed the problem by telling us that the Istari are forbidden to wield their power openly, and are bound and constrained by the mortal forms they wear. PJ, however, has decided to not dwell on all that confusing e xp osition and history, and instead has 'weakened' Gandalf by making him appear more inept and vulnerable. If he didn't establish him that way to the audience, everyone would be wondering why Gandalf didn't simply blast every problem out of their path.

Rev: The problem is, we're no longer talking about local yokels, but the White Concil. These are The Wise of Middle-earth. Ironically enough, only Saruman seems to be the voice of reason, discounting such supposition and rumours as nonsense. That's the only bright ray of hope in all this for me: that PJ is actually speaking through Saruman in this.

However, a big part of me can't help but feel that unless there is a very sudden shift in direction later on, all signs are pointing to Sauron/Necromancer indeed having some power over the dead. This is where the silly story about the Witch-king dying and being buried, then brought back to life comes in. The White Council is discussing these events as fact, not stories. That is why they believe the Necromancer can do such things, and the proof lies before them: the blade of a man who was supposedly killed centuries ago, and buried in a tomb sealed with spells. I have a very bad feeling about where this is going. I hope to be proven wrong, but if I see the Necromancer raising a zombie Thrain to fight Gandalf I may very well walk out of the theatre in disgust, and no, I'm not being overly dramatic. The possibility of such a travesty to Tolkien is too difficult for me to even contemplate. Yes, the undead are a part of Middle-earth lore: see the Nazgul, the Dead Men of Erech, and corpse lanterns in the Dagorlad swamp. But for each and every one of those, there is a very specific reason and circumstance that ties in with Tolkien's mythology and the fate of Men. Turn this thing into an episode of The Walking Dead and we're going to have a problem.

Before I write the second part of my diatribe, I just wanted to add a couple of things to my part one that I forgot.

During the scenes of the War of Dwarves and Orcs, the narration e xp lains that being homeless led the dwarves to attack Moria. The logical assumption here is that they hoped to reclaim it as a home once again. We know why that wasn't possible, but for some unfathomable reason, the movie leaves that out. So, what are we shown? The dwarves sacrifice nearly everything and everyone in that attack. Thror dies, Thrain goes mad, the dead outnumber the living, and all for what? A single line of dialogue could have e xp lained that the dwarves did not celebrate because though the orcs were defeated, Durin's Bane awaited them inside Moria. We all know it was there, even movie fans because they saw it in LOTR, yet it feels like a glaring omission here. All they had to do was show Thorin gazing hopelessly at the East Gate, seeing the glow from within, and hearing the far-off roar of the Balrog, reminding him and his kin of the ultimate folly of trying to reclaim Moria. My wife wondered why they bothered fighting only to wander off again, and I had to e xp lain to her what would have happened if they had tried. Again, a missed opportunity to beautifully tie this in with LOTR.

One minor thing I forgot, but this one is a big kudos to PJ: he has Gandalf specifically mention that the wargs they are facing come from Mt. Gundabad. Why is this important? It helps to e xp lain why they look different than the wargs we saw in LOTR. Very nice nod, and it makes total sense.

Going back to Radagast, did not like the drug reference about him eating too many mushrooms and having that dull his mind. I am naturally biased against any form of hallucinogenics, but even without that it really felt like PJ was just pandering for cheap laughs here. Haha, very funny, PJ is hip and cool, wink-wink, nudge-nudge. Really? Please. For me, that's about on the same level as Gimli farting to the delight of the simple minds in the audience. Also, and much like Olorin, I did not like the implication that the wood was only now becoming Mirkwood. It had become that way long ago, but I guess then they would have had to e xp lain why Radagast, and possibly the White Council, had not acted sooner to find out why. This is the problem when you have to compress timelines.

Oh, and nearly forgot it a second time, but I loved Thranduil's cameo. He and the wood elves looked spot-on, the stag was very fitting, and I agree that it very much helps to set up the enmity between the dwarves and elves, making what is to come later much more logical, rather than just some party-loving wood elves being complete pricks to the dwarves simply because they can.
Last edited by Valkrist on Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This Space for Rent

Re: The Hobbit

3770
Very nice musings, Val. I'm gonna respond to what I can remember wanting to respond to. :P

Regarding the mushrooms thing with Radagast and Saruman: I think that was just PJ showing Saruman to be a little stuck up. In FotR, he chastised Gandalf for smoking Hobbit Pipeweed, and now in TH he puts down Radagast for eating mushrooms. He's kind of an elitist, and believes himself to always be right. While he may be very wise, he's always putting others down as totally beneath him, which we all know is really, really annoying to endure...probably why Elrond and Gandalf are a little peeved that Saruman has showed up. Not because they think he's evil, but because he's just kind of a douche, for lack of a better word! :crazy:

Bolg: No, I didn't catch his cameo because I forgot we had seen pictures of him already! I better pay more attention next time; maybe this whole Azog/Bolg thing will play out better than e xp ected, since Bolg is apparently in this equation.

Durin's Bane: I had NOT thought of this at all until my Bio teacher (a huge Tolkien nut) brought it up. I forgot all about the dwarves peering into Moria and seeing Durin's Bane. You're right, that would've been a really nice touch. I hope we get a nod to that in the EE.

Old Bilbo: Agreed, but I was e xp ecting Ian Holm to look different. They're not going to be able to get him to look the same ten years later, so I didn't think much on it.

Blue Wizards: Yeah, I see what you mean. If you really want to dig into the lore with this, one could argue that seeing as they all had different 'Maia' names in the west (Olorin, Curunir, etc), Gandalf might not have remembered the 'new' names that Allatar and Pollando took. Also, seeing as their names were only ever mentioned UT and Tolkien had a history of changing his own names and stories around all the time, PJ might have just left them unnamed for fear of purists saying "Hey, those are only conjectures, it's not confirmed enough in the canon that those are their actual names!" That probably hurt him, seeing as book readers probably would've preferred to hear those names on the screen, but a nod to their existance was enough to make me smile in that scene, and I'm content. :)

Khamul: You brought this up, hadn't thought of it. Re: Tolkien changing things frequently (see above), I'm pretty sure that Tolkien actually discounted Khamul as an offical name, preferring to leave the other Nazgul unnamed. But whatever, not a big deal to me.

I think that ya'll are a little too wrapped up in the Thrain scene. I'm pretty positive that we'll get it just as intended; a flashback of the events. Remember, we have a lot of White Council scenes to fly through in the next two films, seeing as the company is already almost across the Anduin. There will likely be a lot of recap discussions among the wise regarding Dol Goldur.


And as for the "Coming back from the dead"? Well, it'll probably leave a sour taste in my mouth. But whatever; I'll give PJ a chance until I've seen all three films. Then we'll see if it grows on me.



But it probably won't! :evil:



On a side note, glad you enjoyed the film, Val!
"Remember, the force will be with you, always."

Re: The Hobbit

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Oh goodness, hearing all this discussion is like seeing and smelling a succulent tasty meal. Makes me all the more eager to partake of it. Valkrist, Fin, Olorin, all of you, awesome! I really like hearing about exactly the stuff you covered before seeing the film. Hopefully I'll be able to see it tomorrow.
Image

Losto Caradhras, sedho, hodo, nuitho i 'ruith!

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[quote=""Fingolfin""]Well, I do love it when I'm compared to a succulent and tasty meal. :laugh:


Sorry, that was kind of creepy. :rolleye: ....[/quote]

Not creepy at all, if Gollum overheard you.
He would very much relish partaking of your arms and legs, precious! ;)

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: The Hobbit

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I got the art and design book for christmas and love it. there's an interesting part where it talks about the tombs of the Nazgul. It acts as a prison to them. This scene was actually meant to take place when Thorin and the others encounter the stone giants.

Its on page 150 for anyone who has the book but may have missed it.

I believe there is part of this sequence in the second trailer that was released in September. We see Gandalf running down a dark corridor and quickly stops himself from falling from a ledge or down a stair case. I guess that this scene was removed at the last minute, because they felt that there was already so much going on in the first film.

Im guessing it may end up in the second film or maybes even on the extended version of the first.

The book is really great, the artwork and photos are amazing. I can't wait until Weta releases their next book.

I know it isn't what Tolkien wrote but I'm still interested in seeing how this plays out in the films. I was just wondering if they've done it this way because the history of the Nazgul is in the other books that they don't have the rights for. Is that the way it is Val?

If so, then I believe that this is the reason for the big departure, PJ and crew wanted to e xp lain how the Nazgul came back but couldn't do it true to the story because of the rights issue with Tolkien's family.

Just a thought I had about it.
Last edited by Lindir on Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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[quote=""Deimos""]Not creepy at all, if Gollum overheard you.
He would very much relish partaking of your arms and legs, precious! ;) [/quote]

They can't have them! They're oooours, they is, our limbs are ours, precious! Gollum, gollum! :crazy:



Interesting info from the book, Andrew. I can't wait for my book to show up so I can get a good read on that scene.
"Remember, the force will be with you, always."

Re: The Hobbit

3776
[quote=""Lindir""]I was just wondering if they've done it this way because the history of the Nazgul is in the other books that they don't have the rights for. Is that the way it is Val?

If so, then I believe that this is the reason for the big departure, PJ and crew wanted to e xp lain how the Nazgul came back but couldn't do it true to the story because of the rights issue with Tolkien's family.[/quote]

You bring up an interesting issue which I've been meaning to post about. But first, to your question. There is information in the appendices of ROTK that the filmmakers would clearly have rights to. Without going back and rereading the appendices, I'll just say that the Nazgul were not very active in the Third Age until just before the War of the Ring began, with the exception of the Lord of the Nazgul. And there let me clarify something that people often get wrong. His name was not Angmar; in fact, Tolkien no where recorded any name for him. Nor was he king of a place called Angmar prior to becoming a Ringwraith. He and the other eight became Ringwraiths in the Second Age, about SA 2250. The kingdom of Angmar was established well after the beginning of the Third Age (around TA 1300, according to Robert Foster's excellent Complete Guide to Middle-earth [if you don't have this book, hie thee hither and buy it]). The realm of Angmar was established for the e xp licit purpose of destabilizing and destroying Gondor's sister kingdom in the north, Arnor. The Lord of the Nazgul ruled Angmar for Sauron, and in that role he was the Witch-king of Angmar. He was never named Angmar, although I suppose he could legitimately be called that, in the way that sovereigns are sometimes called by the name of their countries, as they represent and embody their countries.

In any event, after the realm of Angmar had achieved its purpose and Arnor had been shattered, the forces of Angmar were defeated by Elven and Gondorian forces, and the Lord of the Nazgul vacated the premises. He later joined his comrades in Mordor. In TA 2002, they conquered Minas Ithil and it became Minas Morgul. In TA 2951, ten years after Thorin's quest, three Nazgul occupied Dol Guldur and held it until the hunt for the Ring began. The ROTK appendices make occasional semi-vague statements, such as Thrain being pursued by servants of Sauron. Were these Nazgul, or merely Men or Orcs? I don't know.

Unfinished Tales speaks more about the Nazgul, but primarily about their movements around the time of Frodo's departure from the Shire, so they don't have much relevance to The Hobbit. And at long last I come to what I wanted to post about: does PJ have legal right to material in Unfinished Tales? To answer this, one would have to read the terms of the sale of film rights. If the rights convey the rights to film only what lay within the covers of The Hobbit and LOTR as published, then no. If the terms were more vague, then maybe. Much of what is in Unfinished Tales could be considered part of The Hobbit and LOTR, as it was either material excised for reasons of length, or supporting essays pertaining to the events in the books. The main difference between Unfinished Tales and The Hobbit/LOTR, other than being published in a separate volume, is that there was a settled story/narrative for the material in the LOTR Appendices, whereas for Unfinished Tales, there was not (hence, unfinished).

So, I don't know whether PJ had rights to the unfinished material, and at the same time I don't know that he didn't. What I would say is that he didn't use it even if he did have rights to it, as evidenced by how he portrayed the fall of Isildur in the FOTR EE. LOTR as published says very little about Isildur's demise other than that he was attacked by Orcs and the Ring was lost in the river. Unfinished Tales gives a much fuller story, that Isildur's party was attacked and besieged, and it was only at the urging of his son that Isildur finally donned the Ring and fled. You can see that this is very different from how PJ portrayed it, and this is the source of one of my great beefs with PJ, that he sometimes preserves little more about a character than the name. Isildur was a great and noble man who had one moment of weakness when, bereft by the death of his father and brother, he was seduced by the Ring and didn't destroy it, a failing he forever after regretted. And what do we get from PJ? A man smugly riding off from the war, Ring displayed brazenly on a chain as a spoil of war, who immediately dons it and bails into the River when the ambush happens.

Now before anybody gripes, I realize the point of the LOTR movies was not to be an account of Isildur's life and that you often have to simplify or abridge to get things done. I simply believe this should be done without making characters into travesties of themselves. In any event, whether PJ had rights to Unfinished Tales material or not, he not only ignored it but then crafted something antithetical to its spirit (if he was even aware of it...he had only read LOTR once, decades ago, prior to embarking on the movies, so he can hardly be viewed as a Tolkien scholar). I fully e xp ect him to approach The Hobbit the same way, and we will be deprived of seeing a fuller understanding of Gandalf's motivations and beliefs in encouraging the quest and ensuring that Bilbo went on it.

Instead we may well get resurrected Nazgul and zombie Thrains along the way....
Last edited by Olorin on Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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They do not have rights to Unfinished Tales, or anything other than The Hobbit and LOTR, although they have delved slightly into things they don't have rights to from time to time.

After the Witch-king fled from Glorfindel in the appendices, there is not much mention of him or the Nazgul after. Why the Walsh/Boyens/Jackson/Del Toro writing team added that they were killed/entombed is odd. I suppose the Nazgul could have remained dormant in some type of tomb during the inactive periods, but the film implies the Witch-king was defeated and entombed. Seems unnecessary, but perhaps they thought a few lines like that were a simpler e xp lanation than going into the previous history of the Witch-kings action and last defeat. Seems they could have simply said 'the Nazgul had long ago retreated into darkness and had not been seen in hundreds of years'.

Very minor story point in the overall scheme of things, but it is an odd change.
KRDS

Re: The Hobbit

3778
It is indeed a minor point on the surface, Kit. However, my main fear, as I have e xp lained before, is how I feel this is all going to tie in with Sauron's title of Necromancer. I feel a very unfortunate connection between the two issues is brewing here.

Olorin, you said it all spot on about the Witch-king, so no point repeating it. I will just say that Kit is 100% correct about the rights issues. PJ's rights to film material fall within the sole purview of what is contained within The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, from front cover to back cover only. The scenario you propose, wherein relevant material to either story but lying within the pages of another book *might* be used would be a rights infringment. By that reasoning, he would have been able to use a lot of things from the Silmarillion also. That book, and all others, like Unfinished Tales, are out of bounds.

Similary, and going back to discussing the Blue Wizards with Fin, my point was not that the names were omitted - see rights issues above. My point was that Gandalf would never forget their names. It was very cool that he mentioned them, and it satisfied the book-nerd in me, but he should have just left it at that, rather than to say he had forgotten their names. It's not important here that Tolkien may or may not have settled on what they were, but the perception that it gives of Gandalf. Again, something totally irrelevant to the average viewer and the movie as a whole, but it's one of those small things that really irritates those in the know like myself. If PJ is going to make references like that, then use them correctly.

On Khamul, most of the references to him and his guardianship of Dol Guldur are indeed in books other than the ones PJ can use, so again I agree with swapping him out for his leader, the Witch-king. I just wish, like Kit said, that they had e xp lained that when Sauron was vanquished during the Last Alliance, so too was the power of the Nine greatly reduced and their essence scattered. This would not be hard to understand for most, given what was already shown and e xp lained in the three previous movies. The story about tombs and spells is very awkward and does not fit with anything else, certainly not ME lore.
This Space for Rent

Re: The Hobbit

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[quote=""Valkrist""]ISimilary, and going back to discussing the Blue Wizards with Fin, my point was not that the names were omitted - see rights issues above. My point was that Gandalf would never forget their names. It was very cool that he mentioned them, and it satisfied the book-nerd in me, but he should have just left it at that, rather than to say he had forgotten their names. It's not important here that Tolkien may or may not have settled on what they were, but the perception that it gives of Gandalf. Again, something totally irrelevant to the average viewer and the movie as a whole, but it's one of those small things that really irritates those in the know like myself. If PJ is going to make references like that, then use them correctly.[/quote]

This is part and parcel of PJ's penchant for diminishing characters. Farting Dwarves aside, I think the character that suffers from this the most in PJ's movies is the one most beloved by me, Gandalf.

Paradoxically, however, I got a smile and a chuckle out of the line about having forgotten the names of the Blue Wizards. Being incarnated in a mortal body, Gandalf was subject to human weaknesses like forgetfullness. When trying unsuccessfully to deduce the password to open the West Gate of Moria, he comments that he once knew every spell in the tongues of Elves, Men, and Orcs that were used for such purposes, i.e., he once knew all of them but has now forgotten some of them. So, he does forget. I agree, the names of the other two wizards would not likely be something that he would forget. However, it just didn't bother me. Of all PJ's transgressions, this one seems to be among the more slight.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: The Hobbit

3780
Gandalf is known to forget though, especially without a long amount of time to think about a situation. From the book, two good examples are the gates of Moria password and what choice of the three passages inside Moria. Although, these are indeed lesser offenses to be forgetful of, not remembering say the "common tongue" name of two wizards (that he hasn't seen in how many thousands of years?) off the top of his head isn't really out of the realm of something written in the book.

Re: The Hobbit

3781
I did mention this was a nitpick, right? Not a movie-breaking event?

Ok.

We'll just have to disagree, Rev. Forgetting stuff about Moria is one thing. Forgetting the names of two fellow Maiar that were sent along with him, by the Valar no less, to help the Free Peoples of Middle-earth oppose Sauron? Highly, highly doubtful.
This Space for Rent

Re: The Hobbit

3782
Okay, just got back from seeing the film. Not bad, I feel like I was better prepared for it hearing opinions here before seeing it.

I agree with just about everything everyone in this thread's said about the film, positive and negative. Whew, that saved a ton of space I would've spent typing! Just to go further on agreeing on a point though, Radagast was positively such a great character that I don't think I'll ever forget him. To go further, I saw absolutely no similarity between him and that cartoon lizard/rabbit that won't be named in the Star Wars prequels, and I was actively searching for similarities so I could at least see where these people were coming from.

Okay, just going to write down the things that really tickled me (in a good or bad way).

-Glamdring and Orcrist getting the reputation they deserve. Hearing the terror in the Goblin King's voice when he saw those two blades just made me smile so widely.
-The realm of the Ring being calm. I thought it was just perfect how there was no whipping wind tearing at Bilbo when he put on the Ring, just a calm and sedate sort of thing.
-Gandalf lighting pine cones on fire. For some reason, I always liked reading that part of The Hobbit. Made me grin hugely again when I saw that.
-Elrond's armor. Gorgeous, absolutely loved it.
-Balin, Dwalin, Bofur. These Dwarves are the only non-Thorin ones who really stuck out as true characters to me. Really liked their performances.
-Thorin still reminds me more of a Klingon than a Dwarf.
-Saruman's face. I felt like wincing every time the excellent Christopher Lee was in a close-up. Whatever cg nonsense they did to his face absolutely wrenched me from the moment, which up till then was great (Gandalf's eye roll upon hearing Saruman's voice for the first time was priceless).
Image

Losto Caradhras, sedho, hodo, nuitho i 'ruith!

Re: The Hobbit

3783
Just as a re-iteration: I really like the Gandalf eye rolling at hearing Saruman. This doesn't have to signify that Gandalf sees him as a threat or anything like that. It is simply that he doesn't like his boss, like Office Space. Saruman's ramblings are practically, "Umm... About those TPS reports..."

Re: The Hobbit

3784
Saw the hobbit yesterday in 3D 24fps. Will be watching it in 2D today.

Absolutely loved it.

I thought radagast was well portrayed by Sylvester McCoy. Going by the online comments regarding this character & the jar jar binks comparison, I was led to believe the would be over the top and annoying. However, I found out that this was not the case at all.

Radagast came across as more of a quirky, slighly odd fellow with lots of understated power. I especially liked the way he fended off the witch king.

Re: The Hobbit

3785
When I saw it again Sunday I looked close at a few scenes that went by quick the first time. In the shot where Frodo was digging through the chest at Bag End, when we see Sting, it has no engraved runes, so this is a pretty clear indication it was added later when he lived in Rivendell.

The Numenorian sword on the wall in Bag End looks similar to the one at the end of ROTK, but not the same. Oddly it actually looks almost identical to Strider's ranger sword.

One thing I really noticed even more this time is that the swords on set were all obviously the lightweight solid polyurethane, or aluminum bladed versions with poly handles. They handle them as if they were light as a feather. There is a big difference when someone handles something with weight vs no weight. Likely no real swords were used in any scenes, other than a few closeups of Orcrist.

In reality, those dwarven weapons would weigh a ton, but of course Dwarves are tough, strong little bastards. The replicas of Kili and Fili's swords I am working end up being almost 5lbs each due to the thickness of the steel.
KRDS

Re: The Hobbit

3787
I went to see it for the first time today - it only came out in Australia yesterday. It definitely warrants many more viewings! I thought it was great, deviations from the book lore aside.

That was the first thing I thought when I saw sting in the chest. I noticed a few other elven weapon details:
- Nice to see Elrond carrying Hadhafang.
- Is that the same sword as Haldir's that the Rivendell Riders were carrying? It even looks like the same scabbard.
- I thought it great how much screen time Orcrist's Scabbard gets - a positive for seeing it released by UC.
- The flash glimpse of Thranduil's army was intriguing... I can't wait to see more of them.

Re: The Hobbit

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Strider and the rangers had been guarding the Shire at Gandalf's request for at least 40 or 50 years by the time this scene occurs, so who knows. Most of the additional shooting next year is for the Five Armies Battle, but I can't help but think Jackson is going to shoot other material that bridges the gap between TH and LOTR.

Maybe he will give us our first glimpse of Strider/Estel as a young man in TH3, and somehow this sword ends up in his hands. That's a stretch though.

[quote=""Jaymail""]
- Is that the same sword as Haldir's that the Rivendell Riders were carrying? It even looks like the same scabbard.
[/quote]
Nearly the same pattern. The handle vine and blade engraving are different. We debated getting the prop to replicate, but it is 95% the same as the Haldir prop I own. Not enough screen time to warrant a replica, but maybe they will appear again in the 5 Armies Battle.
Last edited by Nasnandos on Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:57 am, edited 4 times in total.
KRDS

Re: The Hobbit

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[quote=""Nasnandos""]

One thing I really noticed even more this time is that the swords on set were all obviously the lightweight solid polyurethane, or aluminum bladed versions with poly handles. They handle them as if they were light as a feather. There is a big difference when someone handles something with weight vs no weight. Likely no real swords were used in any scenes, other than a few closeups of Orcrist.
[/quote]


Plenty of polyurethane rubber as well. Dwalin's axes bounce around pretty badly when crossed on his back. Noticed other rubbery weapons as well.
Going to see it in 48fps today...

Tim
MC Sting, MC Samwise, MC Glamdring with scabbard, Sting and Scabbard, Legolas Knives and Scabbards, Hadhafang Sword of Arwen, Gondor Shield, Gimli Battle Axe, Gimli Bearded Axe, Gimli Walking Axe, Witchking Sword, Sword of the Ringwraiths, Witchking Dagger, Uruk Hai Scimitar

Re: The Hobbit

3791
I think I just said that a few posts up, but yes, Dwalin's axes were the most noticeable non-weighted weapons. They don't actually flex when bouncing up and down, as the poly is hard, but heavy axes should not bounce up and down, they should weight his back pack down. Just a nitpick though, and I only really notice it because I was looking for it.

Elrond holding Orcrist-in-scabbard with only two fingers, as if it weighed nothing, I can accept, since it is Elven. You can't do that with the real steel bladed version though.
KRDS

Re: The Hobbit

3792
[quote=""Nasnandos""]I think I just said that a few posts up, but yes, Dwalin's axes were the most noticeable non-weighted weapons. They don't actually flex when bouncing up and down, as the poly is hard, but heavy axes should not bounce up and down, they should weight his back pack down. Just a nitpick though, and I only really notice it because I was looking for it.
[/quote]

I wasn't looking for it, but found it very noticeable. To to me the axes looked like poly rubber (heads anyway), not solid hard poly and they certainly have made polyurethane rubber props in the past. Will take another look at it today at 48 fps...

Tim
MC Sting, MC Samwise, MC Glamdring with scabbard, Sting and Scabbard, Legolas Knives and Scabbards, Hadhafang Sword of Arwen, Gondor Shield, Gimli Battle Axe, Gimli Bearded Axe, Gimli Walking Axe, Witchking Sword, Sword of the Ringwraiths, Witchking Dagger, Uruk Hai Scimitar

Re: The Hobbit

3794
[quote=""RevAnakin""]And that is why I think Viggo is one of the best actors around. He is the real deal, the O.G. of getting into character. He used the hero sword for every shot they would allow him (for safety), because he wanted to feel the fatigue.[/quote]

OK, what's OG? The only thing I'm coming up with is "opera ghost" from Phantom of the Opera, and I'm reasonably sure that's not what you mean.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: The Hobbit

3796
[quote=""Fingolfin""]Original Gangster, Old O'. ;) [/quote]

A little bit more clarification (I Googled it because I didn't know it either)

"OG stands for Original Gangsta...some one who has been on the scene for a very long time, perhaps even from the beginning. Not a new comer. Used mostly to describe the Rap Hip Hop music styles but can apply to anything."

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: The Hobbit

3798
Who knew that the Dunedain of the North counted hip-hop, original gangstas among their number? :O

I can just see Strider and his homies doing a drive by on an orc lair, gold-plated pistols blazing out the side windows of their pimped-out Cadillac Escalade, with Fifty Cent blaring out the car speakers. :coolsmile
This Space for Rent

Re: The Hobbit

3800
Well, I think the ultimate example of someone totally becoming their role is, oddly enough, the actor PJ allegedly wanted to play Aragorn—Daniel Day Lewis. He's legendary that way.

On another note, here are a couple of views from the Digital Bits about the effectiveness of 3D and HFR in The Hobbit: http://www.thedigitalbits.com/columns/t ... into-speed

The take-home is that the quality of what you saw might vary greatly from theater to theater, not only due to the type of 3D they were using and whether or not it was HFR, but also due to how well the theater was projecting the film.

I saw it twice: IMAX 3D and regular 2D, 24 fps both times. I did not find the 3D to be all that great. Certainly, it was not Avatar- or Prometheus-quality. Some of this may be due to where and how I saw it, but the article also points out what a steep learning curve the production had, taking on not only 3D and HFR but also having post-production being very rushed, with re-editing required at the last minute to refashion the film from 1/2 of a saga to 1/3 of a saga.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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