I hear what you're saying.

Just boggles the mind that they could get soooo many things right, then go so abysmally wrong on a few others. I have my issues with the people who wrote some of these scenes, but this one in particular, coupled with the downright horrid dialogue during the Eowyn and Witch-king fight are a glaring testament to the incredible hubris and arrogance that led them to think they could write about these characters so much better than Tolkien did.

These conversations always end the same, "well at least they made the movies as well as they did in the first place."

Just to clarify a few things....

As the White, Gandalf was allowed to match power with power, not to blow Evil away by main force, but to stalemate it long enough for the people of the West to achieve their victory. I forget exactly where this is written, but I think it was in Tolkien's letters.

The e xp lanation given for the drastic alteration of the Witch King scene, and this was given by Val's own fave screenwriter, Phillippa Boyens, (or maybe it was PJ) was that they felt that there was something disempowering about a character that shows up, says "I'm going to open a can of whoop-ass on you," and then does nothing, as the Witch King does in the book. They felt that they needed to show that the Witch King was capable of making good on his threat, and thus they scripted the scene as they did. So, they had a problem with the book's WK, who didn't get to demonstrate his powers, and instead gave us the film's Gandalf the White, who they made into little more than a senile old fool, especially when considering the wracking smoker's cough scene earlier on in the EE. This was simply the most outrageous example of one of the adaptation's most consistent recurring flaws--dumbing characters down.

I didn't consider the breaking of the staff and its reappearance later to be a continuity error. The staff isn't seen again until the Gray Havens sequence. I assumed by that time, Gandalf had had time to have a new staff made.

The timing of the Gandalf/WK scene is awkward due to another change made by the screen writers. In the book, Theoden's death occurs almost immediately after the charge of the Rohirrim. Gandalf and the WK are seemingly about to come to blows, the Rohirrim arrive with horns blaring, the WK flies off and drops down upon Theoden. In the movie, they understandably moved Theoden's death to the end of the battle, for dramatic/emotional reasons. I understand that they wanted to give him a chance to do more in his final battle than just show up and die, and I understand the choice of his death as an emotional end point for the battle. I don't necessarily argue with this change (this being one of the few examples of where I do accept that book and film are different media with different needs), but it does force a wholesale reimagining of the sequence of events of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Once they moved Theoden's death to the end of the battle, there was no way to have the Gandalf/WK encounter without introducing a timing issue. As the EE currently stands, the horns of the Rohirrim lure the WK away from delivering a coup de grace upon Gandalf, yet it takes about 15 minutes for him to fly to where Theoden is.

Question: in the movie, would it have been believable for the WK to hurl Theoden across the field early on, yet save Theoden's death until much later? Could he have lived that long with his mortal injury?

In the book, the emotional endpoint of the battle is that the ships arrive, and the forces of the West fear they are beaten, until Aragorn's banner unfurls upon the lead ship. Aragorn and Eomer subsequently are reunited after fighting their way through the forces of Mordor. In the movie, particularly in the EE, there is no suspense/surprise about the ships, because we already know who is on them.

Possibly the problem underlying all the changes to the battle is that PJ says he imagined how he would film this when he first read the book when he was 11, or whatever, and did not change a thing from the juvenile imagining when he finally got the chance to make the movie. It's unfortunate that the centerpiece battle of the third book did not get a more careful, successful analysis in its transition to film.

[quote=""Olorin""]and instead gave us the film's Gandalf the White, who they made into little more than a senile old fool, especially when considering the wracking smoker's cough scene earlier on in the EE. This was simply the most outrageous example of one of the adaptation's most consistent recurring flaws--dumbing characters down.
[/quote]

I was told the coughing scene was to show how Gandalf had changed, he could no longer return to his "old habits." I actually quite like that scene if you think of it in those terms.

Here's the skinny on the Bakshi LOTR re-release, from http://www.dvdactive.com/news/releases/ ... ated2.html. Note that it is apparently also coming on 6 April as is PJ's version, not 13 April as originally reported (of course, this remains highly subject to change until it is actually in one's hands).

I'm disappointed to see that the "newly created bonus material" reported previously is apparently limited to one featurette, which will probably be rather brief, considering it's being termed "featurette." Still, to get any newly created bonus material on a title like this is something.

Title: Lord of the Rings Animated
Starring: N/A (Animation)
Released: 6th April 2010
SRP: $19.98 (DVD)

Further Details:
Warner Home Video has revealed details on DVD ($19.98) and Blu-ray ($29.99) releases of Lord of the Rings Animated which will arrive in stores from the 6th April. Extras will include a Forging Through The Darkness: The Ralph Bakshi Vision for The Lord of the Rings featurette, and a digital copy. We've attached the highres package artwork for the DVD release below:

On the Blu-Ray release: If it's being held back at PJ's request, does that mean we might even get more special features or extras on a BR version? I can't imagine PJ of all people holding it back just to make more money, which makes me think he'll put something special on it. I hope so. I do love special features.

On the other discussion over the EE stuff. I thought most of it was fine. In general I think Return of the King was filmed all wrong, for most of the reasons already stated. The suspense from the Black Ships was totally killed by showing the Army of the Dead take them out before hand. It would have been amazing if they had just showed up and unfurled the banner, then maybe covered some of the rest in an abbreviated flashback so we'd known where they were.

Part of my problem I think is that my first e xp osure to Return of the King was the Rankin-Bass cartoon. And while some of it was dreadful, I think two things stick with me: 1. John Huston as the voice of Gandalf will forever remain in my head. When Gandalf and the Witch King meet in the cartoon, with Gandalf standing resolute as people flee and fire is crashing down around him, it's a great image. And I love hearing him narrate the arrivate of the Rohirrim. 2. I absolutely hated Eowyn's portrayal in the Battle of the Pellennor Fields. In the book she's so strong. In the cartoon they lift the words right out of the book. In the movie, it's like she bumbles into the fight foolishly on a lark, and only comes out of it due to an incredible stroke of luck. I think the script robbed her of almost all her power, and Miranda Otto didn't rise above the material. They should have lifted the dialogue almost directly from the book and done it that way. It would have been much stronger. It's one of the few exchanges of dialogue in the whole thing that really stand out to me.

[quote=""Finrod Felagund""]2. I absolutely hated Eowyn's portrayal in the Battle of the Pellennor Fields. In the book she's so strong. In the cartoon they lift the words right out of the book. In the movie, it's like she bumbles into the fight foolishly on a lark, and only comes out of it due to an incredible stroke of luck. I think the script robbed her of almost all her power, and Miranda Otto didn't rise above the material. They should have lifted the dialogue almost directly from the book and done it that way. It would have been much stronger. It's one of the few exchanges of dialogue in the whole thing that really stand out to me.[/quote]

One of my biggest bones of contention with that movie, my friend. If only PJ and his Oscar-winning writers weren't so high on themselves to rewrite dialogue that Tolkien wrote so exceedingly well, this scene would have played out much better in the film.

Is the EE coming to blue ray?

[quote=""BrandalftheBlue""]Is the EE coming to blue ray?[/quote]

Yes but not right away. It will probably coincide w/the theatrical release of The Hobbit.

[quote=""Olorin""]Yes but not right away. It will probably coincide w/the theatrical release of The Hobbit.[/quote]And that still doesn't sit right with me. Many of us have already double-dipped on the DVDs, and they want us to do it again on Blu-Ray? I know, I know, I don't have to buy the theatrical Blu-Ray copies, but it would have been nice for them to just offer the 'definitive' version right off the bat for a change. I've been waiting long enough as it is for these films to come out on Blu-Ray, and when they finally do, we're getting gold-plating when they've got pure gold ready to go

Well you don't have to buy them. If you don't have a bluray player or a 1080p TV, there's certainly no sense in it. And if you do, your bluRay player will automatically upconvert the existing EE discs you have.

Unless PJ re-cuts the movies there's no real reason to buy them unless you're a completist. Or you just gotta have that true 1080p

[quote=""The Flame of the West""]And that still doesn't sit right with me. Many of us have already double-dipped on the DVDs, and they want us to do it again on Blu-Ray? I know, I know, I don't have to buy the theatrical Blu-Ray copies, but it would have been nice for them to just offer the 'definitive' version right off the bat for a change. I've been waiting long enough as it is for these films to come out on Blu-Ray, and when they finally do, we're getting gold-plating when they've got pure gold ready to go [/quote]

At least they've said there'll be 2 editions, so the buyer can choose whether to be double-dipped or not. A lot of studios don't say a word.

I'm still hoping for some tweaks to the EEs (or at least to the ROTK EE) for the BDs, so I'm content to let PJ take his time getting back to these.

[quote=""Olorin""]At least they've said there'll be 2 editions, so the buyer can choose whether to be double-dipped or not. A lot of studios don't say a word.

I'm still hoping for some tweaks to the EEs (or at least to the ROTK EE) for the BDs, so I'm content to let PJ take his time getting back to these. [/quote]
I'd like some tweaks as well. I'm up for a 12 hour version of the trilogy. As well as an 8 hour Hobbit. And 30 hours of special features to watch.

Amen to that.

Maybe those are the sort of changes PJ was alluding to when he said he wanted to hold back the EEs. If he wasn't going to make SOME sort of changes, he wouldn't have allowed his name to be used to hold off the release. My only hope is that, unlike a lot of other blu-ray releases, they won't leave off stuff from the dvds. I'm sick of BR releases that have one or two extras, but leave off half the extras that were on the dvds. Aren't BR discs supposed to be able to hold an immense amount of data? Bah.

Getting ready to dodge bricks, but the length of the ROTK EE needs to be trimmed. Most or all of the extra paths of the Dead material needs to go, as it adds nothing to the story, slows it down, and spoils the surprise when the Dead appear at Minas Tirith later. I usually skip over that part when I watch the movie.

So no, I would not be up for a 12 hour LOTR.

I think the "falling skulls" part could be taken out for sure.

I would agree but for the fact that any way you slice it, we already know what happens. The time is well past for an edit like that in terms of preserving the 'surprise' unless you think a whole new generation of LOTR-movie (and book) virgins can benefit from this.

You want to edit for time, then get rid of the overly drawn-out Grey Havens farewell scene. Not in its entirety of course, but it could do with some hefty editing.

[quote=""Valkrist""]
You want to edit for time, then get rid of the overly drawn-out Grey Havens farewell scene. Not in its entirety of course, but it could do with some hefty editing.[/quote]


Agreed.

LOTR is one of those movies where I ignore structure and pacing. If we really want to get into that with these films, it will get messy. I loved the extra paths of the dead scenes and pretty much every second added throughout the trilogy.... except the ending of ROTK. Endings are very touchy... The Fellowship had a great ending. Definitely my favorite of the three. The Two Towers was good, concise, etc., but ROTK was all over the place. Needs some heavy amount of revision. I don't think it's so much material or length (although it does run quite long). It's the mood and pacing. From the moment Frodo wakes up and sees his friends, we're already pretty much burnt out from the finale at the Black Gates and Mt. Doom which had that PJ signature slo-mo epicness that just sludged along, straining all our emotions, etc. Then it's resolved and Frodo wakes up and slow-mo hugs his friends, slow-mo smiles, slow-mo laughs. Then the coronation scene is just pretty calm, silent, and... slow. I'm glad it wasn't rushed. I'd rather it be slow than rushed. But I still think they could have done this much better. By the time we get to the Grey Havens we're just waking up from a half hour nap. And guess what... it's SLOW. And by that, I'm sure you know what I mean. It's all very drowsy and dreamlike. It would be different if there was a similar amount of material that was edited, mindful of the rest of the footage left. IE: any other scene in the movie. But, and this is why I refer to ROTK having 50 endings, each scene seeks to resolve the film itself, ultimately leaving a very redundant and drawn out feeling. It's almost as if the coronation, grey havens, sam's last scene, etc. were all edited as if they could be stand-alone endings. And that reeeeaally puts a viewer off after 3.5 hours of a pretty good flow full of emotion and excitement. It's almost anti-climactic, drawing so much attention away from the Black Gates and Mt. Doom, ultimately pushing it further to the center on the timeline.


But other than that, I've always said that LOTR is 100% escapism for me and I don't think of them as films that tell a story with an artistic editing style or poetic narrative structure or anything like that. They are very well made, but I let that sink into the back of my mind and I just watch them to be awe-struck and go to another world. As such, I want as much as possible on that DVD. Let me spend as much time as I can in Middle-Earth and I'll be happy.

Gee, I thought those smiley faces would help reveal my tongue in cheek humor in those statements.
Elijah Wood mentions talking to Jack Nicholson @ Golden Globe awards or something in the ROTK EE appendice; Nicholson said to him, "Too many endings man." Which is pretty true.
Black gate.
Coronation.
Grey havens.
It all gets dragged out, but PJ mentioned the challenge of ending it due to the way Tolkien wrote the end. I sympathize with those challenges.
Regardless, there is no doubt they did a good job when you think of how badly a novel can be butchered when brought to film.

But I'm in Sed's camp when it comes to losing myself in Middle Earth. If I went to New Zealand I'd like to go camping at some of those locations for a few days with full role playing garb to live it out.

You'd think that with all the renaissance festivals there'd be one started up that's purely Middle Earth in concept. Disney used fairy tales and what not to theme his amusement parks, there's room for a Minus Tirith recreation vs. Cinderella's castle. UC shops, Weta shops, New Line shops, lembas and coffee shop, lol. Costuming shops so you can get into the scene.

Some billionaire might read this so I'll shut up here.

[quote=""Curunir""]I think the "falling skulls" part could be taken out for sure.[/quote]

Definitely. That one requires far too much suspension of disbelief. Six inches of running water can push a car off a road, so what could a torrent of skulls do to people standing on their feet? I don't think they'd be able to wade their way through the torrent. Plus, those skulls would hurt.

[quote=""Valkrist""]You want to edit for time, then get rid of the overly drawn-out Grey Havens farewell scene. Not in its entirety of course, but it could do with some hefty editing.[/quote]

[quote=""Sedhal""]Agreed.

[snip]

I don't think it's so much material or length (although it does run quite long). It's the mood and pacing. From the moment Frodo wakes up and sees his friends, we're already pretty much burnt out from the finale at the Black Gates and Mt. Doom which had that PJ signature slo-mo epicness that just sludged along, straining all our emotions, etc. [snip] By the time we get to the Grey Havens we're just waking up from a half hour nap. And guess what... it's SLOW. [snip] But, and this is why I refer to ROTK having 50 endings, each scene seeks to resolve the film itself, ultimately leaving a very redundant and drawn out feeling. It's almost as if the coronation, grey havens, sam's last scene, etc. were all edited as if they could be stand-alone endings. And that reeeeaally puts a viewer off after 3.5 hours of a pretty good flow full of emotion and excitement. It's almost anti-climactic, drawing so much attention away from the Black Gates and Mt. Doom, ultimately pushing it further to the center on the timeline.
[/quote]

To each is own, of course, but this touches on one of my pet peeves about the film critics who raked ROTK for having multiple endings. It was the conclusion of a 12-hour movie with multiple story lines. It would have been a cheat for those story lines not to receive at least token closure, and to wrap everything up in a ST:TNG-style 30 second "everything is back to normal now" ending would have been a collossal abomination.

We needed to see Frodo's joyful reunion with the surviving Fellowship members, whom he thought he would never see again. We needed to see the coronation of Aragorn (this movie was called the Return of the King, after all). We needed to see the resolution of his romance with Arwen. We needed to see something with the Hobbits once they returned to the Shire, and since the Scouring was excised, I think the lack of knowledge and appreciation of the Shire's inhabitants, plus Sam's wedding, were good fill-ins. We needed to see that Frodo can't settle back into a normal life. In fact, I think we needed a lot more than just his twinge of pain while writing in the Red Book. And we needed the Grey Havens sequence, just as it was shown. I would not have cut a second from it. This is Frodo's final goodbye to his dearest friends, and the resolution of his story. He has saved Middle-earth, but he has to leave it.

Now, there are definitely places where I would have tweaked the editing throughout the three movies. Gandalf hanging on the Bridge of Khazad-dum comes to mind. I know PJ drew it out for dramatic effect, but when they show him hanging there that long, it makes it harder for the audience to understand why no one tried to save him, especially since they did not show the rest of the bridge cracking and falling in, as it did in the book. A solid second could have been cut from that scene and made it much stronger.

But really, the worst example of drawing things out too long was PJ's King Kong. He lingered on every shot like he was filming the Bible or something. I just wanted to stand up in the theater and say, "Get moving! It's only King Kong, not LOTR, for cripe's sakes!" That is probably the single biggest reason why I didn't buy that movie on DVD. If it would have been half as long, it would have been twice as good. And I can't even begin to imagine what the EE of King Kong must have been like...yikes!

Anyway, I don't mean to lecture. I know you guys know how the story went after the Ring was destroyed. I just feel that what was shown was necessary for all the stories, and length-appropriate in that it serves as the ultimate ending for the entire trilogy. I don't think it could have or should have been rushed without doing a much greater disservice to the story than Elves at Helm's Deep or the Witch King defeating Gandalf. I do not view it in any was as anti-climactic, but rather as afterglow.

[quote=""Thranduil""]You'd think that with all the renaissance festivals there'd be one started up that's purely Middle Earth in concept. Disney used fairy tales and what not to theme his amusement parks, there's room for a Minus Tirith recreation vs. Cinderella's castle. UC shops, Weta shops, New Line shops, lembas and coffee shop, lol. Costuming shops so you can get into the scene.[/quote]

This year Universal Studios in Florida is opening its new "The Wizarding World of Harry Potter." I've wondered if something like that for Tolkien could ever be successful. The first obstacle would be that it would probably have to be authorized by The Estate, and that would not happen. Beyond that, Harry Potter is pitched at a somewhat younger audience than LOTR, so there would be perhaps more of an overlap with a theme park's audience. In any case, I don't look for any Middle-earth Worlds to open up anywhere. I'd love to go to one, but I'm probably happier that there isn't one than if there were and it flopped.

We agree that everything needed to be there in some form or another, and that there are many loose ends. But there's a difference to ending a film and ending a story within that film, IE: Aragorn's Coronation, saying goodbye to the elves, dwarves, men, saying goodbye to Sam, Sam ultimately leading us out of the film, etc. Those are loose ends within the story, is what I'm trying to say. We need to see all of these additional plotlines and relationships summed up somehow. But each of these scenes doesn't need to feel like an ending to the film itself. It's in pacing and editing, not content. I don't want it rushed at all. In fact, it could have been just as long, second-for-second, and worked 100% for me had it had a little different pacing or flow. Like I said, every scene after Mt. Doom feels very dreamy and slooooow motion-like. One of the few scenes that seems like it's in real time is when Frodo hands the book over to Sam in the Shire. Even a more montage-ish feel with some more fitting music would have greatly benefited this. Hell, I'd even make it longer. Throw in Legolas & Gimli during that montage. Have something like the end of the Two Towers where Sam spoke over a compilation of scenes taking place, ultimately falling together flawlessly. I loved that.

Either way I'm not really complaining. I fully accept the film the way it is. But as far as e xp ressing any discomfort, I can't deny it could have been better.

While I fully empathize with Olorin's appreciation for what we were given, I have to agree with Sed. Everything that we saw needed to be seen, I will never dispute that. In fact, as pointed out, there should have actually been a bit more: that Gimli and Legolas pulled a Houdini and got no closure was one of the ending's greatest crimes.

Having said that, the pace was killer for some of that stuff we did get. It felt overly drawn out without it needing to be, and in an already very long movie, that can be dangerous to attention and patience. I still maintain that the farewell at the Grey Havens could have been tightened up without losing any of the emotional impact that was clearly being aimed for. The long hugs, the lingering looks and fond smiles, the tears... all that needs to be there, but the camera just seems to crawl through the scene and it feels and is much longer than it should be.

I usually am one to be staunchly opposed to even a single second being cut out of a movie that I love. Yet I offer to you an example of a movie you also know well, wherein such a thing was done, and to be honest, I do not miss or even noticed the multiple seconds that were shaved off a few scenes: Alien, by Ridley Scott.

I have full confidence in PJ as a director to have the ability to trim the Grey Havens so that the integrity of the scene is 100% maintained, but without making us start to wish that Frodo would just get on with it and board the boat. Heck, with those few extra seconds saved, we could have been given Frodo's glimpse of the Undying Lands as Tolkien wrote in the book. That would have been a marvelous final scene that would have told the audience without further doubt, that the movie was truly over.

Just my two cents.

It sounds like what you guys are saying fits in with something I meant to mention before: if PJ hadn't faded each scene to black like it was the actual end, no one would have commented on the "multiple endings."

Well yeah that's part of it (a big part, actually). I just think a little better flow from one scene to the next would have helped immensely. Like I said, treat it more as a montage of sorts and overlap some of the scenes' transitions. They could have had some of Frodo's dialogue voiced-over the coronation scene, pausing for bits where Aragorn speaks, or anything like that really. All of the scenes present felt a bit like rough cuts that were never quite melded together in the end.

I imagine most folks are going to hold out for the EEs on BD, whenever they may come, and pass on the TEs. However, be aware the the optional "Steelbook" packaging offered by Best Buy is apparently a bit cheesy. The cover art is not actually embossed on the box, but rather is just a sticker, or at least that's what I read from one reviewer on Best Buy's website. So I'd say if you are taking the plunge on the TE BDs, pass on the "steelbook."

[quote=""Valkrist""]While I fully empathize with Olorin's appreciation for what we were given, I have to agree with Sed. Everything that we saw needed to be seen, I will never dispute that. In fact, as pointed out, there should have actually been a bit more: that Gimli and Legolas pulled a Houdini and got no closure was one of the ending's greatest crimes.
[/quote]

There was a scene that was used in post that showed Legolas and Gimli entering (I believe) Fangorn, and separating from the Hobbits on the journey home. I don't believe it was ever filmed, however.

If only it had been filmed...

[quote=""RevAnakin""]If only it had been filmed...[/quote]

There was much that should have that wasn't, and a few things that shouldn't have that were.

I am just wondering if they are going to put any more into the EEs or and "ultimate" edition.

[quote=""Curunir""]There was a scene that was used in post that showed Legolas and Gimli entering (I believe) Fangorn, and separating from the Hobbits on the journey home. I don't believe it was ever filmed, however.[/quote]

The extended editions special behind the scenes extra stuff showed a snapshot of footage with Legolas in his casual nice Elven clothes with an Elven longsword at his side in Fangorn and Gimli in the Glittering Caves with a little eyepiece magnifier examining a rock. I with they actually would have done something more with it than the 10 seconds that were put into the extras.

I know some of us, myself included, already feel the ending was a little bloated, but I cannot fathom why Jackson felt the need to shortchange two characters we had grown so attached to over the course of three movies. Just made no sense that they got no farewell/closure.

They could have easily cut a few seconds off the whole giggly hobbit happy dance at the end and put in Gimli and Legolas.

[quote=""RevAnakin""]I am just wondering if they are going to put any more into the EEs or and "ultimate" edition.[/quote]

Jackson made the joke a number of times on the EE commentary tracks about an EEE for the 25th anniversary. But more seriously, he also said that everything that was shot that he thinks should be in the movies is in the EEs. Of course, that has been six years ago now. When Jackson looks at the EEs again to start getting them ready for BluRay (they will undoubtedly be tied to the theatrical release of the Hobbit Part 1), I think he may want to do some tweaking, since it will have been 10 years since FOTR hit the theaters. I suspect he will have a few "OMG what was I thinking?" moments. But I also suspect he will be very restrained in what he changes, as these movies have been so embraced by the fans that he will not want to upset people.

Hopefully not too much would be changed. They just need an option at the menu screen to choose extra scenes or not.

[quote=""RevAnakin""] They just need an option at the menu screen to choose extra scenes or not.[/quote]

Which is exactly how the current LOTR BD release should have been done: seamless branching to allow the user to choose between the TE and the EE. But no, New Line wouldn't forego a chance to double dip us. Years ago, there was a legitimate reason for two releases: the EEs weren't ready quickly enough to get them out at the normal post-theatrical-run release time. But that's not the case any more. They could have had the TE and EE in the same set, with all the previously released bonus features: the TE featurettes, the EE extended documentaries, and the second EE documentary that Costa Botes or whatever his name is did.

That's right, folks, these movies have been released on DVD 3, that's three, times already.

Four if you count how they were doing the trilogy set for the TE versions besides individuals.

Wow, and people say Lucas was the worst offender in this regard. At least he did all his releases over the course like 25 years, and not 10. Either way though, it'll be interesting to see what Jackson does in the BR release. New scenes? No deletions I think. Additions though, maybe. I can't imagine he gets any of them back to do any additional filming, so it would come down to what scenes were cut but available for the screen.

Who knows, maybe they all are secretly reading the boards wondering what we like... *I feel like we are being watched*. Doubt it. They will do whatever suits them in the long run. Probably TE, EE, and Extra EE if they want some more milk from the cow.

I'm not mad at Lucas for making multiple releases of his movies; I'm mad at him for rewriting his movies and raping my childhood. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's what revisionism does to you.

I sincerely don't think PJ will got the same route, though if he erased some of his worst blunders I could be convinced to 'look the other way.'

[quote=""Finrod Felagund""]Wow, and people say Lucas was the worst offender in this regard. At least he did all his releases over the course like 25 years, and not 10. Either way though, it'll be interesting to see what Jackson does in the BR release. New scenes? No deletions I think. Additions though, maybe. I can't imagine he gets any of them back to do any additional filming, so it would come down to what scenes were cut but available for the screen.[/quote]

If you're referring to the multiple reissues of the same thing, I'd lay the blame for that on New Line's doorstep. That's a pretty standard practice. I doubt PJ had anything to do with that (other than creating the EEs, of course).

As regards future re-edits, it seems like I recall PJ saying that he would not want to make the movies any longer. I mean, the ROTK EE is already 4:10 or something around there. Personally, I'd be happy if he left the FOTR and TTT EEs alone. I know he's not going to make major plot changes, like causing Treebeard not to need duping by Pippin to go to war, and those two EEs flow well enough, so they can be left alone.

The ROTK EE, however, could certainly stand some pruning. It's not the absolute length that bothers me...if it were narratively taut, 4:10 would be fine. To me, it's that much of what was added simply bogs it down, esp. the additional Paths of the Dead material. Not only does that drag it out, but it spoils the effect of having the Dead appear at Minas Tirith when you've already seen them appear to take on the Corsairs.

I think of all the added Paths of the Dead stuff, the only part I would keep would be Aragorn and friends emerging from the mountain and seeing the Corsair fleet sailing up Anduin, burning villages. When Aragorn sinks to his knees in despair, it's perfect. Then I'd cut away right there, before the King of the Dead emerges. So, no Gimli blowing at ghosts, no avalanche of skulls (and really, why would ghosts dishonor their own bones by throwing them at you?), and no ruining of the surprise assault at Minas Tirith.

Those are changes I could see PJ making in the cold hard light of day, all these years distant from when he originally assembled the EE. I think he could objectively see that it makes a better structured, more effective movie. (In fact, he said at the time of preparing the FOTR EE that he doesn't use the term "director's cut" because it implies the EE is his preferred version and that is not at all the case...I believe he prefers the TEs as a film e xp erience even though the fans love the additional scenes in the EEs.)

However, I don't hold out much hope that he would drop the extra Dead scenes. By the time the EEs come out on BD, they will be so carved in stone in the fans' minds that he will not want to tinker. I certainly don't hold out any hope that he will suddenly have an epiphany of wisdom and drop or redo the Gandalf/WK encounter or get rid of Gandalf's coughing fit. (I'll never understand why he felt it wouldn't be clear enough already to the audience that the cards were tremendously stacked in Sauron's favor that he felt it necessary to reduce the leader of the West's defenses from a powerful wizard to a feeble old man.)

Another thing I would like to see him do (and again, probably not realistic, due to the money) is to tweak some of the effects. Many of the blue or green screen shots look very fake. Gandalf and Theoden etc riding up out of Helm's Deep at the end of TTT: awful. Some of the CGI is very dodgy too. Long shots of the Rohirrim sweeping into the Orcs at Minas Tirith: awful. How movies that included the Balrog, Gollum, and that shot of the Rohirrim on the charge across the Pelennor (a mix of real people and horses with CG, and totally spectacular) could also contain the previously mentioned poorly done shots is baffling, and when the movie shifts from an incredible scene to a cheesy-looking one, it's very jarring.

I agree about all the Paths of the Dead stuff. I'd even have WETA digital add in a scene where they show him unfurling his standard on the ship. That was a big moment in the book for me that the movie totally got wrong.

[quote=""Finrod Felagund""]I agree about all the Paths of the Dead stuff. I'd even have WETA digital add in a scene where they show him unfurling his standard on the ship. That was a big moment in the book for me that the movie totally got wrong.[/quote]

Right you are, Finrod. I think the Battle of the Pelennor Fields segment is the single part of the story where Jackson made the most "mistakes" (putting it in quotes so as not to offend his many fans who vociferously defend all his adaptation choices). We could list many of those changes. But I mostly limited myself to suggesting things that would improve it as a movie vs. things to make it truer to the book (other than the Gandalf/WK abomination). To do the latter would essentially require reshooting most of the movie, and I know that's not going to happen.

I once read an essay online that someone had written about all the reasons why they believe that LOTR will be filmed again some day. I may even have posted that essay in our forum somewhere. Although I love and will always treasure PJ's movies, I hope that if someone does remake LOTR, they do it in the next 30 or so years so I'm still around to see it. Perhaps then we will get to see the WK ride his horse through the shattered gates of Minas Tirith and be stalemated by Gandalf, Arwen's banner unfurling from the mast of the lead ship, and Aragorn meeting Eomer in the midst of the battle field. In the mean time, we have to be content to focus on the power and grandeur that PJ conjured with his version, even if he didn't do it exactly the same way we would have.

I have been secretly toying with the idea of going ahead and buying the TE BDs next month, in spite of having proclaimed that I was going to wait for the EEs. I can rationalize along with the best of them...I have the big TV now so I'll want to see these films on BD as soon as possible, it would be nice to have the TE supplements in HD, etc. Well, I just noted in looking at the back of box art on Amazon that the supplement discs are DVDs. In other words, the supplements will be standard def, and the discs will probably be identical to what I already have in the TE DVD releases.

So one rationalization crumbles....

[quote=""Olorin""]I have been secretly toying with the idea of going ahead and buying the TE BDs next month, in spite of having proclaimed that I was going to wait for the EEs. I can rationalize along with the best of them...I have the big TV now so I'll want to see these films on BD as soon as possible, it would be nice to have the TE supplements in HD, etc. Well, I just noted in looking at the back of box art on Amazon that the supplement discs are DVDs. In other words, the supplements will be standard def, and the discs will probably be identical to what I already have in the TE DVD releases.

So one rationalization crumbles....[/quote]

Just rent/netflix them so you can watch them on the movie screen you call a TV and then buy them when the EEs come out Thats probably what I will do.

To whomever is reading this that will in 30 years redo the movies: if you have any respect for the source material, please leave all the bodily noises out.

You know, one day, perhaps not in our lifetimes, a player will come out that gives the person at home the ability to edit and recut their own movies. Yes, I know you can already do this with computer software, but I'm talking about a much simpler process for the average-joe. I would take those digital scissors to LOTR and cut out some stupid bits, and then hit the 'save' button. And no, fast-forward is not good enough... in the end, it's still there.

I wish my DVR would cut out the commercials, I love being able to not watch the commercials when I DVR something, but I still would rather not have to.

[quote=""BladeCollector""]I wish my DVR would cut out the commercials, I love being able to not watch the commercials when I DVR something, but I still would rather not have to.[/quote]

The day the device comes that does that is the day TV dies. As much as we hate them, commercials pay for you to have a tv in your living room, and for the networks to broadcast their shows.

[quote=""Valkrist""]You know, one day, perhaps not in our lifetimes, a player will come out that gives the person at home the ability to edit and recut their own movies. Yes, I know you can already do this with computer software, but I'm talking about a much simpler process for the average-joe. I would take those digital scissors to LOTR and cut out some stupid bits, and then hit the 'save' button. And no, fast-forward is not good enough... in the end, it's still there.[/quote]

Nice to think about, and obviously it will be possible technologically, but I don't think the studios will EVER allow us that sort of control over their product. BD already gives them too much control over how you use the disc that you paid money for...not being able to skip over those wretched previews at the beginning of the disc, not being able to skip the warnings (like anyone who's going to rip the disc will be deterred by reading a warning), etc.

[quote=""BladeCollector""]Just rent/netflix them so you can watch them on the movie screen you call a TV and then buy them when the EEs come out Thats probably what I will do.[/quote]

[basking contentedly in the glow of BC's envy ]

[quote=""Olorin""]

I once read an essay online that someone had written about all the reasons why they believe that LOTR will be filmed again some day. I may even have posted that essay in our forum somewhere. Although I love and will always treasure PJ's movies, I hope that if someone does remake LOTR, they do it in the next 30 or so years so I'm still around to see it. Perhaps then we will get to see the WK ride his horse through the shattered gates of Minas Tirith and be stalemated by Gandalf, Arwen's banner unfurling from the mast of the lead ship, and Aragorn meeting Eomer in the midst of the battle field. In the mean time, we have to be content to focus on the power and grandeur that PJ conjured with his version, even if he didn't do it exactly the same way we would have.[/quote]

Absolutely agree about the WK/Gandalf scene. I think he should have used the exact dialogue from the books too. He used almost the exact language in Gandalf's confrontation with the Balrog, and it worked to powerful effect. He should have used the exact same language, and the exact same setting (the gates, rather than as an interlude on Gandalf's way to the tombs) as the novel. "You cannot enter here, go back, fall to the nothingness that awaits you and your master, go!" So much better. I hear it in John Huston's voice in my head from the cartoon and it's so much better. Furthermore, so long as we're fixing scenes from the Pellennor Fields, which really is the only collection of scenes that I really object to, I'd change the scene between Eowyn and the WK so she doesn't come off as a totally weak fool who mistakenly entered the battle and then totally got lucky. I'd also give her the language from the book, maybe slightly modified, and I'd tell Miranda Otto to act like a badass instead of someone scared out of her mind, quaking in her boots.

I can't complain on the whole. He did so much correct that so many others would have done wrong, but really, that's what emphasizes the parts he got wrong, as they seem all the more glaring against such an immaculate backdrop!