I mentioned in the Orcrist Revealed thread that rather than buy the movie version abomination I would almost be willing to pay Brendan Olszowy of Fable Blades to create one.

Now, there’s no sense in having him make something that still isn’t book accurate.
And because I haven’t yet read the Silmarillion I really don’t have a good idea of what Orcrist should look like.
(I know, of course, what it shouldn’t look like –--see thread “Orcrist Revealed” )

So, if you were to forge Orcrist from what you know Tolkien said about it, and also based on your extensive knowledge of Middle Earth--its history, genealogies, culture (including languages), peoples, etc --- what should it look like?

Blade shape and length? Single edged or double edged?
What kind of crossguard, shape, materials?
What kind of grip? One handed, hand-and-a-half, two-handed? Shape and materials?
What kind of pommel, what shape, what materials?

Runes? What and where?
Altho’ I am very much leaning toward Rev’s work on this….and my friend, if I do this those runes better be accurate.

I welcome all suggestions and ideas… take your time and give it some thought and research.
(It’s going to take me about 6 months to set aside the funds for this.)
Ultimately, prior to commissioning Brendan, I will consult with the handful of ME loremasters here and on the LOTR Fanatics website for the final design.

Pictures, drawings, photo-shopped composites, let’s see how we can put Weta to shame on this.

I posted my Elvish over on the lotrplaza and am waiting for a response of translation. There never was a true description of Orcrist, but we do get a description of Ecthelion being in solid silver glimmering armor with a helm where a diamond was at the point of a spike on it. Being from the Fountain, their colours were very silver and diamond. So I would say that the most accurate thing would to do some sort of "diamonds" clear crystals and make sure it is silver handle. This of course is our guess work that the sword is truly Ecthelion's, which I think most of us agree is the best probability given the literature we have.

Nice! I like this project.

It's a real pity Weta and PJ dropped the ball so badly on this important little detail of Middle-earth lore.

Deimos, you should be aware that Orcrist is never mentioned anywhere within the pages of the Silmarillion. Though the timeframe of the book definitely coincides with the the period we know the sword to have been forged and used in, it is not until The Hobbit that Tolkien mentions it. It also mentioned very briefly in The Lord of the Rings, where it is told that it lies upon Thorin's tomb, placed there to warn of danger.

Someone else can better describe what few little morsels of information exist on this blade as set out by Tolkien. What I can say is that the Professor never described elven blades, or any other weapons for that matter, to be curved. All depictions of elven weapons in Middle-earth, be it by illustration or animation, were always straight, conventional blades. The curved swords that we have (some of us reluctantly) gotten used to are pure creations of Peter Jackson and his team of designers and artists.

The biggest recurring theme - Hadhafang, Legolas' Knives, Strider's Hunting Knife, Noldorin Daggers, Haldir's Sword, and High Elven Warrior Sword - is that of a single-edge, curved blade. The two exceptions to this rule thus far are Sting and Glamdring. Though they both exhibit a slight leaf-shape to their blades, they remain double-edged swords and far more 'familiar' in look.

These two last exceptions are what makes the current Orcrist all the more baffling. Given that it is apparently part of a set, Orcrist is even said in the book to be Glamdring's 'mate.' Given its origin and the shape and appearance of its two nearest weapon relatives, Orcrist really stands out as an anachronism. It is my humble opinion that Orcrist should have very closely resembled Glamdring, or been double-edged, at the very least. Don't even get me started on the whole ridiculous dragon's tooth nonsense. It is much too lore-breaking, both historically and culturally.

Anyhow, I am mentioning Glamdring here because if you want to recreate an Orcrist that at least fits in thematically with the current movie swords while attempting to bring it back to a more Tolkien feel, then it should look closer to Gandalf's sword. I think in that case, the moviemakers did an outstanding job with Turgon's blade. I just can't comprehend why they went off on a tangent with Orcrist. In their quest to come up with something fresh and different to distinguish itself from Glamdring, they got it brutally wrong and designed something cartoonish.

So, there isn't much there in the way of answering your questions about how to go about creating an Orcrist from scracth (materials, runes, etc) but I'm just giving you some of my thoughts on the matter. Hopefully they are of some help.

Yes, it does help, Val. Thanks very much.

What it did is prompt me to look up as much as I can everything about Ecthelion, but also Glamdring and Sting, and even Anduril.
I went to LOTR Fanatics website and discovered a thread or two discussing not so much the superficial features of Orcrist but rather its size.

It is indeed Glamdring's mate, but it's not its twin.

The first thing I need[ed] to learn is: how tall is Thorin?
My guess is that he is at least 4.5 ft (54 inches) but no more than 5 ft (60 inches).

Aragorn was at least 6-6 (78 inches) according to JRRT and probably taller (he says). Anduril (movie Sword) is about 52 inches-- that is, Anduril, a longsword, is 2/3 the height of Aragorn.

That would mean that in order for Thorin to effectively use Orcrist and it not be too big for him, it would be anywhere from 36 to 40 inches long, but no more. (Unless Thorin is over 5 ft, but I don't think he is).

And since it's original owner, Ecthelion was a full size elf, Orcrist was more likely 40 inches rather than 36 inches, although Ecthelion certainly could have preferred, and owned, the shorter sword. Note that Glamdring (movie sword) is about 46-47 inches

Also, I'm convinced that the blade would indeed be leaf-shaped like its mate and Sting. And even tho' it wouldn't have to have a fuller, or not a full length one, I would opt for one anyway.

As Rev pointed out (and I also read) Ecthelion's armor and shield were brilliant silver inlaid with diamonds, and his helm sported a diamond tipped spike.

Now perhaps his sword wasn't "color-coordinated" with the rest of his armament , but I'd like to think that it was.

So all I'm really left with coming up with what his sword hilt looked like: the detailed shape of the crossguard (it was likely generally curved like Glamdring and Sting), the material of the grip, and the shape of the pommel.

Oh, and I have to figure out where to stick some diamond gemstones.

Just a note, we know the movie gets things wrong for sure, but Richard A. said in an interview yesterday that Thorin is 5'2" He himself is 6'2" and had to "lose a foot" in CGI and green screen. For some reason he seemed set that Thorin was 5'2" so that is that. I mean the tallest of the Hobbits were Merry and Pippin from drinking the Ent water and they grew to 4'6"-4'8" (differences in Tolkien's work). And dwarves are definitely taller than hobbits, just a reference.

[quote=""RevAnakin""]Just a note, we know the movie gets things wrong for sure, but Richard A. said in an interview yesterday that Thorin is 5'2" He himself is 6'2" and had to "lose a foot" in CGI and green screen. For some reason he seemed set that Thorin was 5'2" so that is that. I mean the tallest of the Hobbits were Merry and Pippin from drinking the Ent water and they grew to 4'6"-4'8" (differences in Tolkien's work). And dwarves are definitely taller than hobbits, just a reference.[/quote]

OK...that still puts Orcrist at a max 42" for Thorin....it would be equivalent to a longsword (2 hander).

But then I am interested only in doing a book accurate version.
And 42" fits Ecthelion better too.

ill try n draw something up and post it asap

just something for you guys to build off of. i took fableblades clamacil and tweaked it.

better and updated pic if you have this made have him blue the entire steel someone just has to add runes on it now.

Yeah it is said that Glamdring is supposed to be Gold, so it's mate wood be silver. Keeping the tradition of love of both sun and moon.

[quote=""ecthelion""]just something for you guys to build off of. i took fableblades clamacil and tweaked it.[/quote]

Ah, yes....Brendan's fantasy sword, Calamacil.

Thanks Ecthelion.
I had seen Calamacil a while back and had forgotten about it until I posted my intent to commission Brendan.

I was wondering if anyone who has been to the Fable Blades website had noticed that his Calamacil is actually much closer to being Orcrist-like than his Orcrist-named sword.

http://www.fableblades.com/Light.html
http://www.fableblades.com/Orcrist.html

I am using Calamacil as a starting point for my "book accurate" Orcrist.
I did notice that it is about the length I thought it should be at the minimum, blade shape and crossguard shape are basically right too.
And I am curious as to the accuracy of the runes, and how his translation compares to Rev's.

But I would have Brendan make the blade longer--at least 40 inches--and make the fuller much longer, and slightly modify the crossguard.
And I still lack any ideas for the grip (wood or leather?) and the shape of the pommel.
But I absolutely know what I'd have him do to any metal parts (except for the blade) in the way of the finish --- a brilliant, brilliantly silver finish.

[quote=""RevAnakin""]Yeah it is said that Glamdring is supposed to be Gold, so it's mate wood be silver. Keeping the tradition of love of both sun and moon.[/quote]

This gets better and better!

Rev, if you are right about [book] Glamdring being gold ---and I have no reason to think you aren't --- then it fits perfectly that Orcrist will be [diamond studded] silver.

And why did you remove your post on Orcrist Revealed that had your version of Orcrist's inscription and translation????
I need that!

It is still there as far as I can see! But do not take it to heart, I have been informed that I do have a few Quenya words in there mixed with Sindarin. So I am working right now to go into the Sindarin. Hopefully, it will be done in the next 24 hours.

It's SINDARIN, not Sindarian.

Also, the elves of Gondolin were Noldor true and through. Why would they use Sindarin instead of Quenya?

[quote=""Valkrist""]It's SINDARIN, not Sindarian. :p

Also, the elves of Gondolin were Noldor true and through. Why would they use Sindarin instead of Quenya? [/quote]

Sorry Val, my damned auto-spell keeps changing it. Edited!

There was a huge conversation about this over at LOTRplaza. There is a few descriptions of the Noldor that came to Beleriand and that they very quickly started using !SINDARIN! to communicate with the !SINDARIN! elves already there. They were "cunning linguists" and picked it up fast supposedly. I asked the same question.

trust me when i say this. Have him blue the steel.

and your welcome

Now that I think more about it, I do believe your buddies are right. It was the sons of Feanor, ever a prideful and disdainful bunch, that would not lower themselves to using Sindarin.

[quote=""ecthelion""]trust me when i say this. Have him blue the steel.[/quote]


Uhhhh....Ecthelion, I know nothing about swordmaking....you have to 'splain to me why I should get this done.

Not arguing with you or dissing you, but i need to know the reason(s), sir, for such a strongly held opinion.
i

The are various chemicals/minerals/solutions that you can either forge into the metal or quench the sword with. This can make the blade turn certain shades of colour. Although there are many, many other metals that take colour better than steel, when forging a sword, the blade can distinctly have a blue, red, green, or black tint (being the most common colours). Below is a website that does A LOT of colour on stainless steel.

http://www.theinoxincolor.com/en-colore ... steel.html

he will give it a bluish tint on the blades to make it look elvish. i have a couple like it.

Also, when it comes to the Runes on Orcrist. There are two sides to the Ecthelion coin. Some say that since Elrond specifically told Gandalf that his sword was "Glamdring and held by King Turgon," is evidence that Elrond read it off the sword, but in the case of Orcrist, he just said the name and that they were "mates." So many at believe that Orcrist should only have "Orcrist" written in runes and that there isn't significant enough information to deem the sword as Ecthelion's. Or we can go with the assumption and believe that. It is almost a religion, we don't have all the answers but we have to believe one way or not! Let me know which you believe, because my runes are the latter, I am a believer I guess!

[quote=""ecthelion""]he will give it a bluish tint on the blades to make it look elvish. i have a couple like it.[/quote]

Post some pictures taken in indoors and also outside in natural light.
I'd like to see what it looks like...thx.

since my camera has been broken for sometime now till i get my new ipad, i was able to find these pics of the darksword armory black knight with blue finish. Remember you can request that it has a steel look with a blue tint or completely blue like this. Be specific when ordering.

[quote=""Deimos""]

I was wondering if anyone who has been to the Fable Blades website had noticed that his Calamacil is actually much closer to being Orcrist-like than his Orcrist-named sword.

http://www.fableblades.com/Light.html
http://www.fableblades.com/Orcrist.html

But I would have Brendan make the blade longer--at least 40 inches--and make the fuller much longer, and slightly modify the crossguard.
And I still lack any ideas for the grip (wood or leather?) and the shape of the pommel.
But I absolutely know what I'd have him do to any metal parts (except for the blade) in the way of the finish --- a brilliant, brilliantly silver finish.[/quote]

Definitely agree that Calamacil works better as a starting point for Orcrist. Make it longer with a longer fuller and perhaps a little narrower at the "leaf". Guard is not bad but needs something, a bit more width maybe. Grip and pommel need to be completely different, white leather for the grip to go with the silver theme?

If you want to kick it into high gear, silver plate the whole blade as well as the guard and pommel. That could make it epic!

Tim

This is my personal opinion, I hate the Bat wing look of the cross guard.

[quote=""RevAnakin""]This is my personal opinion, I hate the Bat wing look of the cross guard.[/quote]

Ditto on the crossguard sentiments.

And just to go on a slight tangent off topic, which I hardly ever do ....
the plaque for the HEWS just screams Batman symbol...totally 100% Batman.

I've never cared for the HEWS and won't/don't have it in my collection, but that plaque is just wrong for any elven weapon (even if I did like the HEWS).

[quote=""timdp""]Definitely agree that Calamacil works better as a starting point for Orcrist. Make it longer with a longer fuller and perhaps a little narrower at the "leaf". Guard is not bad but needs something, a bit more width maybe. Grip and pommel need to be completely different, white leather for the grip to go with the silver theme?

If you want to kick it into high gear, silver plate the whole blade as well as the guard and pommel. That could make it epic!

Tim[/quote]

Thanks for the suggestions on the blade, Tim...definitely parallels my thoughts.
But the whole sword totally bright Silver??? People will think Ecthelion had a major bling addiction.

I actually did consider (briefly) the white leather for the grip, but decided against it.
I've been giving some long hard thought to the grip and in a future post I'll tell why I leaned away from the white leather and toward....something else. (Cue mysterious look and voice )

White leather is great and all, until you want to keep it clean...

[quote=""RevAnakin""]White leather is great and all, until you want to keep it clean...[/quote]


BINGO. 'Zactly the reason....'zactly.

[quote=""Deimos""]
But the whole sword totally bright Silver??? People will think Ecthelion had a major bling addiction. )[/quote]

Well, it sounds like he DID have a major bling addiction:
[quote=""Deimos""]
Ecthelion's armor and shield were brilliant silver inlaid with diamonds, and his helm sported a diamond tipped spike.
[/quote]

A silver plated blade would be very unique and very, very elven.
Let's talk about silver armor and weapons in Middle Earth. An elven "silver" armor set could be simple silver washed (essentially plated) steel or it could well be "True Silver" (mithril), especially on a very high ranking elf.

I don't remember reading anywhere about blades being made of mithril, but is seems possible and a very good way to simulate mithril is silver plating. One advantage to plating is that silver plate is pure silver, not the darker sterling silver which is 8% copper, which makes it brighter than sterling, perfect for an elven sword.

(OT, but fun) If anyone wants read about a German WWII Jagdpanther made of mithril, try to find a book called "Panzer Spirit".


[quote=""RevAnakin""]White leather is great and all, until you want to keep it clean...[/quote]

Of course, but we are talking about sword that are mostly wall hangers (unless you are going to be LARPing with it), so keeping it clean should not be that hard.

[quote=""timdp""]
Of course, but we are talking about sword that are mostly wall hangers (unless you are going to be LARPing with it), so keeping it clean should not be that hard.[/quote]

Well, this custom made sword will probably be fully functional and an heirloom that Deimos will always cherish. I cannot speak for him, but for me, I would be swinging it around all the time.

On the subject of mated swords, search Emperor Maximillian swords to see a nice set of messer and longsword. So not neccessarily identical but with similar features to compliment as a set.

Saying that I am of firm belief that a mated sword could equally be very similar, for example Orcrist with the same blade as Glamdring, slightly different hilt and colour accent.

Nice to see people here who are fanatical about details Tolkien wrote.

The only description I can remember of Glamdring apart from the well known is in UT and Is of "gold and ruel bone (ivory), can't recall if that was the hilt or scabbard though.