This topic may be more appropriate over at the LOTRplaza, but maybe Olorin or Val or Fin know the answer.

How is Took pronounced, meaning how would Tolkien have pronounced it?

Like the normal word "took" which rhymes with "look"?
This is the way Gandalf says it in FOTR when he berates Pippin in Moria, saying, "Fool of a Took!"

Or is it said to rhyme with "kook", which is the way Sam says it in FOTR after all 4 hobbits tumble down the hill (right before meeting the Ringwraith on the road).

Is there a difference in the way that Gandalf and Sam pronounce it? I would assume that Tolkien intended it to be pronounced the way Gandalf says Fool of a Took. I've always said it that way, anyhow. As in the ooo long vowel. Tolkien gets very specific with pronunciations in his Elven languages, but I don't recall any notes on Shire names.

[quote=""Fingolfin""]Is there a difference in the way that Gandalf and Sam pronounce it? I would assume that Tolkien intended it to be pronounced the way Gandalf says Fool of a Took. I've always said it that way, anyhow. As in the ooo long vowel. Tolkien gets very specific with pronunciations in his Elven languages, but I don't recall any notes on Shire names. [/quote]

Yes, pull out the discs and go to the two scenes I mention.
When Sam says something like "What can you e xp ect from a Took..." it rhymes with "kook", not "look".

And Tolkien being rather precise with his created languages, I am inclined to think he had pronunciation rules even for the English/Westron words peculiar to ME.

I always pronounced it took, rhymes with look, because it never occurred to me to pronounce it any other way. I think that in the LOTR movies, Gandalf pronounces it either way, depending on the scene.

I don't recall Tolkien ever opining on the subject.

I say it as it rhyming with look. But I guess it could have the other pronunciation, I mean there are always going to have regional/accent differences.

I've always pronounced like everyone else, took as in look. Not sure if Tolkien said anything on this particular name, probably because it looks so simple. Problem with LOTR is that it uses a variety of actors with many backgrounds, and it seems like PJ made an effort to have the Hobbits speak with something of an English accent in order to accentuate Tolkien's concept that the Shire was like the medieval-rural English countryside. While Billy Boyd's and Dominic Monaghan's accents are quite thick at times due to their background, Elijah Woods' is practically non-existent owing to him being American, and though Sean Astin is American as well, he tries his darndest to affect an English accent at times, and I think it is during one of those instances that the "Touque" pronunciation came out. Not sure if he was instructed to say it that way, or if it was merely his attempt at an accent that made it sound odd. Regardless, I continue to pronounce it the way I used to.

I've also pronounced it to rhyme with "look".
And as you say, it's simple...it's the word "took" (e.g., he took the train)

But when I heard Sam say it rhyming with "kook" it got me wondering.

Also, the Tooks live in Tuckborough, right?
It makes sense that Took, as in "look", got corrupted over time to Tuck.

I have no idea what Took (as in "kook") could morph into, but Tuck doesn't seem likely.

[quote=""Valkrist""] Elijah Woods' is practically non-existent owing to him being American, [/quote]
His accent was just being soft spoken... but I dont think it was as bad as the critically panned non-attempt by Kevin Costner in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves.

Do you all pronounce it as in the past tense of taken? Like, "I took that from him." That seems very strange to me, I've always thought of it as a long syllable, as in "food" or "loose". T "ooo" K. Well, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBGNxNyjN5k

But seriously, it's weird how something so ingrained into your head can be so different to everyone else because no one's ever saying it out loud!

[quote=""Fingolfin""]Do you all pronounce it as in the past tense of taken? Like, "I took that from him." That seems very strange to me, I've always thought of it as a long syllable, as in "food" or "loose". T "ooo" K. Well, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBGNxNyjN5k

But seriously, it's weird how something so ingrained into your head can be so different to everyone else because no one's ever saying it out loud![/quote]

Fin, that is precisely what I was getting at.

Until this very moment, you never knew that you were in the "Took pronunciation" minority . (Well, neither did the rest of us )

You pronounce it with a long 'oo' [kook, spook] while the rest of us -- at least the ones who have replied to the thread -- pronounce with a short 'oo' [book, look].

And , yes, it is rather fascinating ...first, as BC noted it's basically because of regional accents (in my e xp erience native Michiganders have always talked funny ), but also for the reason you pointed out; i.e. that one has it in one's head how something should be pronounced without reference to ever hearing it said, and then are stunned to find out how differently others pronounce it.

I imagine that if we looked through any of Tolkien's works we would come across this situation more often than not.

[quote=""BladeCollector""]His accent was just being soft spoken... but I dont think it was as bad as the critically panned non-attempt by Kevin Costner in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves.[/quote]

Americans seem to have difficulty doing British accents. Probably the most notorious example is Keanu Reeves in Bram Stoker's Dracula. But even universally acclaimed actors can have trouble with accents. Listen to Sigourney Weaver in The Year of Living Dangerously. She's trying to do a British accent, but it pretty much disappears on about halfway through the movie.

[quote=""Olorin""]Americans seem to have difficulty doing British accents. Probably the most notorious example is Keanu Reeves in Bram Stoker's Dracula. But even universally acclaimed actors can have trouble with accents. Listen to Sigourney Weaver in The Year of Living Dangerously. She's trying to do a British accent, but it pretty much disappears on about halfway through the movie.[/quote]

You should hear mine... and the said thing is... I did it the entire time I was in London! HAHA! I am already from Southeast Texas, so you have an idea of what I already probably sound like to begin with

[quote=""BladeCollector""]You should hear mine... and the said thing is... I did it the entire time I was in London! HAHA! I am already from Southeast Texas, so you have an idea of what I already probably sound like to begin with [/quote]

I can't believe you did that, LOL! I don't imagine you fooled anybody.....

[quote=""Olorin""]I can't believe you did that, LOL! I don't imagine you fooled anybody..... [/quote]

There are moments in life when I have no shame , haha

Talking about regional accents... England isn't that big of a place....

http://matadornetwork.com/abroad/quick- ... h-accents/

[quote=""Olorin""]Americans seem to have difficulty doing British accents. Probably the most notorious example is Keanu Reeves in Bram Stoker's Dracula. But even universally acclaimed actors can have trouble with accents. Listen to Sigourney Weaver in The Year of Living Dangerously. She's trying to do a British accent, but it pretty much disappears on about halfway through the movie.[/quote]

Before Costner and Reeves the prize for the worst English accent went to Dick van Dyke as the Chimney sweep Bert in Mary Poppins.

The Brits were merciless in their criticism and all sorts of parodies were launched.
I haven't heard Costner's accent but I did see Dracula....Dick van Dyke's accent is still the worst one....absolutely cringe-worthy awful.

[quote=""Deimos""]Before Costner and Reeves the prize for the worst English accent went to Dick van Dyke as the Chimney sweep Bert in Mary Poppins.
[/quote]

Wait, you mean everyone in the UK doesn't sound like that? Next you're going to tell me that everyone from Australia doesn't sound like Steve Irwin, or carry around a giant knife at all times to fight off dingos.

Just kidding, *ducks behind cover.

And on the topic of the thread, I guess I would be in the 'look' majority; though I do remember when first reading the books, I read it as 'tuke'. Maybe I was just a kid, trying to make their names sound cool? I was weird like that...still am...

[quote=""RosereIII""]....I guess I would be in the 'look' majority; though I do remember when first reading the books, I read it as 'tuke'. Maybe I was just a kid, trying to make their names sound cool? [/quote]

Are you saying "tuke" that rhymes with [sorry] puke, or that rhymes with duke? There is a subtle difference.
The latter would be pretty close to the Fin/Sam way of saying it.

[quote=""RosereIII""]I was weird like that...still am...[/quote]
*ahem* no comment

Speaking of pronunciations, I watched the first two Hobbit movies again over the last two days and noticed a great deal of inconsistency in the way two particular words were pronounced: Elves and Dwarves. IIRC, the proper English plural of each is Elfs and Dwarfs. Tolkien being a philologist as he was, felt that the more appropriate plurals were Elves and Dwarves. However, many times in the movies it seemed as tho the actors were saying Elfs and Dwarfs (and as a plural, not as a possessive). The language consultants must not have been on set very often for these movies, if actors were not getting those two words right, let alone names like Thranduil.

I wonder if the Tolkien version has taken over , at least with "elves" because I hear and read a lot more about Santa's elves than I do Santa's elfs.

Also, the adjectival form of elf is elfin, not elven (just looked it up a few days ago).


As for "dwarf": when I first read FOTR Gandlaf refers to Khazad-dum as "Dwarrowdelf ".
I knew "delf" was the OE word for delve, but I was curious about "dwarrow".
It's the plural of dwarf.

I've attached the Wikipedia section about it.
The entire entry is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_%28Middle-earth%29

-----

Spelling "Dwarves"

The original editor of The Hobbit "corrected" Tolkien's plural dwarves to dwarfs, as did the editor of the Puffin paperback edition of The Hobbit.[14] According to Tolkien, the "real 'historical'" plural of dwarf is dwarrows or dwerrows.[15] He referred to dwarves as "a piece of private bad grammar".[16] In Appendix F of The Lord of the Rings it is e xp lained that if we still spoke of dwarves regularly, English might have retained a special plural for the word dwarf as with goose—geese. Despite Tolkien's fondness for it, the form dwarrow only appears in his writing as Dwarrowdelf, a name for Moria.

Tolkien used Dwarves, instead, which corresponds with Elf and Elves. In this matter, one has to consider the fact that the etymological development of the term dwarf differs from the similar-sounding word scarf (plural scarves). The English word is related to old Norse dvergr, which, in the other case, would have had the form dvorgr. But this word was never recorded, and the f/g-emendation (English/Norse) dates further back in language history.

--------


I prefer Tolkien's versions.

Fingolfin wrote:Do you all pronounce it as in the past tense of taken? Like, "I took that from him." That seems very strange to me, I've always thought of it as a long syllable, as in "food" or "loose". T "ooo" K. Well, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBGNxNyjN5k

But seriously, it's weird how something so ingrained into your head can be so different to everyone else because no one's ever saying it out loud!

Don't feel alone! I have always pronounced "Took" like this as well, not like 'tucking' something into my belt. ;D

All this Took talk makes me think it's in for a rewatching of the trilogy!

god, I love getting grammatical and etymological.

Sam says Took as rhyming with kook, Luke, spook etc. which is the way Fin pronounces it.

Gandalf pronounces it as rhyming with book, nook, hook, etc. which is the way I pronounce it.

I wonder what the Tolkien uber nerds over at lotrplaza would say about this? .....