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Let's hope you're still around when the time comes, Deimos, so the two of us can at least protest in the small and only way that makes any difference: not watch. :cheers:

I know it's far too early to criticize something that, for all intents and purposes, does not even exist yet, but let's just say I'm not exactly filled with confidence over where this is going. :barf:
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Valkrist wrote: Fri May 11, 2018 4:32 pm Let's hope you're still around when the time comes, Deimos, so the two of us can at least protest in the small and only way that makes any difference: not watch. :cheers:

I know it's far too early to criticize something that, for all intents and purposes, does not even exist yet, but let's just say I'm not exactly filled with confidence over where this is going. :barf:
According to the actuarial tables I have about 24 -25 years left.
Going by the longevity of the women on both sides of my family , I have about 30-33 years left.
Then again, "no man knows the day or the hour" which, I suppose, applies to women too. :rolleye: ...but I digress.

Honestly, if this mini- series or made for TV movie or whatever format the adaptation takes ---if there is one--turns out well, then bravo, huzzah etc.
But if it doesn't , and cynic that I am I'm betting it does not, then I simply won't watch it, as you foretell for yourself as well.
It will not be the first time an otherwise memorable if not beloved story (recall that LOTR was voted the greatest work of fiction of the 20th C, not once but twice-- a re-vote was demanded by the elitest literary snobs, and it easily won the re-vote as well) was butchered by an "adapted for movie" screenplay.

I found a coffee cup on a clearance table about 25 years ago; i.e., long before ME mania swept the world beginning in 2001.
It has a gentle caricature of Tolkien drawn on it --Tolkien smoking a churchwarden, dressed like Gandalf but with wooly feets-- and it says this on it:

"Ever since we were no bigger than a billiard ball we've wanted something important we could call our own--a yacht , for example, or a cottage in the Bahamas, or a marriage counselor who could go an entire hour without saying the word "feelings," or, well, a mythology of Middle Earth, to be perfectly honest with you; a unique vision of history and pre-history , good and evil, gods, devils, the whole shebang, the sort of thing J.R.R. Tolkien devised more than half a century ago, which means we're lucky as Frodo, of course, because thanks to modern printing technology and a new-fangled bartering system called "money," we now need go no further than our corner bookstore, pick up a copy of 'The Hobbit' and suddenly we're there, chucked head-over-heels into Tolkien's magical kingdom, thankful that when our world becomes too much for us, we can always turn to his. "

"...[T]hankful that when our world becomes too much for us, we can always turn to his. "
Go on and let them distort ME into something unrecognizable.
As someone once said, "the bastards can't get at what's inside our heads."
Last edited by Deimos on Fri May 11, 2018 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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Idril wrote: Fri May 11, 2018 8:40 pm You made be think of Hans Litten Deimos

Thoughts are Free.
Had to look him up.... a brave, heroic man.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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I agree with pretty much all of this. I hope PJ loans out his technical people to amazon but keeps himself, Fran, and Phillipa the hell away from it. They are not the only three people on this planet capable of interpreting Tolkien for the screen. But I’m afraid they may be perceived as that.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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We've all compared and contrasted the relative merits of PJ's LOTR and Hobbit adaptations. What I don't think we've yet talked about, however, is what has he done since then. Since PJ first stepped foot in Middle-earth, he has not done that much else. He did King Kong, which I found to be a snooze; The Lovely Bones, which I never saw but which got ripped pretty bad by critics; and lastly the Tintin movie he made with Spielberg, which I guess got ok reviews but was really more Spielberg's baby than PJ's. So three movies (not counting The Hobbit) in 15 years, not exactly a huge output compared to many other directors. At this point, therefore, he is faced with a stark choice: go back to Middle-earth and embrace his nascent legacy as a one-trick pony, or push back and do something different. I wonder if he has thought of it in those terms, and how much that will weigh on his decision.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Yeah, I read that a couple of days ago and had the same feeling.

Still, these folks in the entertainment industry are infamous for their denials and disavowals right up until the last minute, only to then turn around and have us find out it was all lies and misdirection. So, until the official announcement comes, I think there is a real possibility PJ is simply playing the role of disinterested party, while there could very well be some back room dealing going on that we know nothing about. Having said that, PJ has always struck me as a very honest and well-principled person, so here's to hoping he's not playing games with us.
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Valkrist wrote: Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:01 am Yeah, I read that a couple of days ago and had the same feeling.

Still, these folks in the entertainment industry are infamous for their denials and disavowals right up until the last minute, only to then turn around and have us find out it was all lies and misdirection. So, until the official announcement comes, I think there is a real possibility PJ is simply playing the role of disinterested party, while there could very well be some back room dealing going on that we know nothing about. Having said that, PJ has always struck me as a very honest and well-principled person, so here's to hoping he's not playing games with us.
Agree. Though he can always change his mind.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I’m still up in the air about the amazon series. I’m eager to see stills and footage to decide on whether I’ll watch it or not, though we are some ways off that yet.

I’ve recently rewatched the Hobbit Trilogy and the LOTR back to back and I have to say the BOTFA does not age well for me. Not just in terms of CGI but also story and just weird choices. The chariot scene is still a sequence that leaves me scratching my head. The battle is pretty bloodless until this one sequence where all hell breaks loose and it’s so jarring. The elves and the dwarves fighting really bugged me the first time I saw the extended edition but I actually like that now as it shows the levels of animosity between the two races.

I much prefer the first two Hobbit movies and of course my love of the LOTR was rekindled when I watched the trilogy back to back. There are some great sequences in TBOTFA that I love and it always hits me during Thorin’s death and I’m so pleased that that emotional beat works well within the story. Just wish the final movie hadn’t been so lacklustre.

I’m not going to lie, I’d be happy not seeing anymore middle earth on screen. I know that sounds blasphemous, and I never thought I’d say it, but I just don’t want it to be permanently ruined. I fear the amazon series might ruin it for me. The BOTFA extended edition leaves a bad taste in my mouth but I am able to stomach it most of the time because there are parts of the movie that I genuinely like.

I guess we just have to wait and see what comes of the amazon show. I am a little more excited for the Netflix Witcher show, though I also worry about how that will go, but that’s a topic for another thread and another time.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Yeah, fully onboard with you there, Lindir.

My skepticism about this new venture is well know, but I'm trying to be optimistic about it. No sense knocking it down before we have a chance to see what they come up with. My greatest fear is simply with how much creative license they will take with the material, and how far off from the spirit of what Tolkien wrote they will go. Amazon (and every other network, streaming service, production company, etc) is very much driven by profit and little else, and in order to do so, they go out of their way to cater to the demographics of the day. Absolutely no offense to the current younger generation that's in that 18-35 sweet spot (or whatever it is,) but Tolkien is not their cup of tea - for the vast majority. While I think PJ succeed admirably with the LOTR movies, the later Hobbit movies felt far more like an endless parade of pandering and shoehorning for the sake of trying to be innovative and modern, which is ironic for a tale that has stood the test of time. To sum it up, if the new series finds itself mired in beautiful, perfectly clean and manicured 20 year-olds, full of angst and romantic drama and entanglements, you can count me out. Or they could try and copy the Game of Thrones formula and make an abysmal mistake that way too.

Only time will tell what they come up with. As for the article, I guess I would prefer that they stick to filming in NZ so that they could revisit some of the established locations, but so long as the series is actually any good, anywhere in the world will do.
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Don’t worry Val, I don’t want to be pandered too either. Whilst I enjoy seeing gay characters in movies and TV - in Fantastic Beasts for example, doesn’t feel forced at all - often they still revert to stereotype. I really don’t want to see gay elves at all or gay dwarves. I don’t go to Middle Earth for validation about myself. Sexuality is so minimal in Middle Earth anyway that it needn’t be a story point. I go to Middle Earth because I find the cultures so interesting, the plight of good against evil and the lore behind the stories.

From what I understand, The Shannara Chronicles is a perfect example of pandering. I haven’t read the books myself, but I’ve read things on this forum and on other places on the internet about how different it is compared to the books. I used to watch it because I did enjoy the world building and I do like the main character but it honestly feels like a teen girls wet dream. I felt guilty watching it.

I hope the Amazon LOTR series does not become the new Shannara Chronicles.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Terry Brooks gets a bad rap for writing what many call derivative fantasy. In fact, his first book set in the Shannara universe was decried as a blatant ripoff of Tolkien. However you may feel about it (and I actually quite enjoyed it despite the obvious similarities), it spawned a series of over 30 books set in a world that is rich and took on a life of its own, independent of its literary inspiration. I own them all, and even as he writes his final trilogy, I continue to reread the entire series and love it.

After years of trying to get a movie done, Brooks eventually opted for the next best thing (in his mind), which was to sell the rights to making a tv series out of it. While this may seem ok on the surface, both the target audience of the network which produced the show and the fact that Brooks essentially had no creative control over what they did, resulted in a horrible mess that resembled what he wrote in no way other than using the name. That this happened wasn't all that surprising, I mean, c'mon... MTV and then the CW? No, what really irked fans of the novels was the fact that Brooks gave his personal stamp of approval to the blasphemy that was playing on our screens. You try and have some faith in people wanting to preserve the integrity of their work over figures on a paycheque, but I guess not everyone out there can be a Christopher Tolkien.

I watched the first season of Shannara Chronicles to its laughable conclusion out of a combination of misguided loyalty to Brooks and his world, morbid curiosity in wanting to see how hard this train would crash at the end of the line, and the foolish hope that this ridiculous excuse for a tv show would somehow find a way back from the brink of being utterly irredeemable. Alas, it did not happen, and when it was over, never did I wish more fervently that a show be cancelled for the sake of melting brains and eyeballs all across North America. Incredulously, and by the hair's breadth of a few thousand screaming teenage girls swooning over the roguish looks of the main protagonist, the show gets renewed for a second season and moved to another network where it was only guaranteed that it would get even impossibly worse than what it was. I decided to preserve my sanity and not watch this abomination any more, but again, out of perverse curiosity and a burning desire to see it fail, I read the reviews. Oh, what a joy that was. At least the first season kept up some bare pretense of clinging to some of the story in the books. The second season went off the rails so bad with its own invented plotlines and idiocies as to be in a completely craptacular alternate universe all of its own. It died a justly deserved death. All I can say after this experience is that I lost a tremendous amount of respect for Brooks for ever allowing this affront to intelligence to ever see the light of day. Not only that, but to claim that he liked it, and that it was "visionary." Yep, you were having visions all right... :rolleye:

A cautionary tale for Amazon... they certainly can go no deeper than the bottom of the barrel because Shannara Chronicles proudly dwells there already.
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The dwarves move into Moria? My history is rusty but weren't they there since the First Age?

Anyway, I'm always wary of this sort of teasing, but if it proves true then I'll be more excited for tales of the Second Age than the Adventures of Young Aragorn, starring Taron Egerton, or whoever the current teen heartthrob is, as he breaks heads and hearts alike across Middle-earth.

Gag. :barf:
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I think the biggest take-home is that the map shows a fairly detailed image of Numenor, which never appeared in the appendices of Lord of the rings. So either they have rights to materials beyond the Lord of the rings, such as unfinished tales or they’re going to be getting sued by the Tolkien estate. But if they do have rights beyond the Lord of the rings, that means that eventually the Silmarillion might be possible.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Honestly, my eyebrows barely arched at all when I saw the map.

I was under the impression that material was already fair game after Chris Tolkien loosened his iron grip on the estate? Way I heard it, his children and grandchildren were practically foaming at the mouth to see money come out of this. I know it's not officially confirmed, but it would be the very definition of naivete to assume Jeff Bezos hasn't already given them his best Don Corleone impression and made them "an offer they can't refuse." :club:
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I don't have high hopes, but I'd like to be proven wrong. I follow LOTRPrime on Instagram and they only follow very few people including Megan Fox and Vin Diesel and some have speculated that they may be attached to this. I really, really hope that's not the case as it would be doomed before we even see a single episode.

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Megan Fox?!? Dear gods, slit my wrists now.

As for Vin Diesel, I actually don't mind him as an actor but he is somewhat limited in his range and this definitely won't be the right vehicle for him.

I share your skepticism, N2, and though I really want to give this a chance, I'm just too much of a pessimist at heart. I think this is going to fail, though I will be only too happy to be proven wrong.
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Valkrist wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:14 pm Megan Fox?!? Dear gods, slit my wrists now.

As for Vin Diesel, I actually don't mind him as an actor but he is somewhat limited in his range and this definitely won't be the right vehicle for him.

I share your skepticism, N2, and though I really want to give this a chance, I'm just too much of a pessimist at heart. I think this is going to fail, though I will be only too happy to be proven wrong.
I’ll be joining you, Val!

I don’t have anything against Vin Diesel but he is most definitely not a right fit for Middle Earth and I couldn’t personally take him serious in any role. He is far too modern looking. Megan Fox is dreadful. If this is the calliber of actors they’re wanting then I’ll be skipping this for sure.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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I'm hoping them being followed in Instagram has nothing to do with the show. If they are in it, my expectations are down the drain, through the sewage plan, down the river, out into the Gulf of Mexico, and down into one of the deep ocean trenches.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Olorin wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:01 pm I'm hoping them being followed in Instagram has nothing to do with the show. If they are in it, my expectations are down the drain, through the sewage plan, down the river, out into the Gulf of Mexico, and down into one of the deep ocean trenches.
Gasp! :O

You mean to tell me that Vin and Megan are not your dream casting of Ar-Pharazon and Ar-Zimraphel?!? Honestly, Olorin, what is wrong with you?

:crazy:
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Well I did wonder what role she could possibly play, and that ill-fated queen did pop into mind. But if she would be in this show, I hope it is a non-speaking part. She is very beautiful so some Elf maiden under a vow of silence would be acceptable. I suppose I should clarify, especially since today is International Women's Day, that I am not being sexist is saying she is beautiful. It is merely that the Elves were always described as being beautiful, so her appearance would be appropriate.

For similar reasons, I thought Diesel might be an orc or troll.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Olorin wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:48 pmFor similar reasons, I thought Diesel might be an orc or troll.
Good call there. The Hobbit movies would have risen much higher in my estimation if PJ had merely slapped some makeup and prosthetics on Vin Diesel and had him play the part of Azog instead of that CGI abomination we got... or Bolg, for that matter.
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Olorin wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:48 pm Well I did wonder what role she could possibly play, and that ill-fated queen did pop into mind. But if she would be in this show, I hope it is a non-speaking part. She is very beautiful so some Elf maiden under a vow of silence would be acceptable. I suppose I should clarify, especially since today is International Women's Day, that I am not being sexist is saying she is beautiful. It is merely that the Elves were always described as being beautiful, so her appearance would be appropriate.

For similar reasons, I thought Diesel might be an orc or troll.
Never apologize for expressing an appreciation of beauty in anything, whether the thing is animal, vegetable or mineral.
We have been given the capacity for just such appreciation, and to withhold the expression of it is to deny that which makes us human...no brute animal can appreciate beauty.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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Deimos wrote: Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:11 am
Olorin wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:48 pm Well I did wonder what role she could possibly play, and that ill-fated queen did pop into mind. But if she would be in this show, I hope it is a non-speaking part. She is very beautiful so some Elf maiden under a vow of silence would be acceptable. I suppose I should clarify, especially since today is International Women's Day, that I am not being sexist is saying she is beautiful. It is merely that the Elves were always described as being beautiful, so her appearance would be appropriate.

For similar reasons, I thought Diesel might be an orc or troll.
Never apologize for expressing an appreciation of beauty in anything, whether the thing is animal, vegetable or mineral.
We have been given the capacity for just such appreciation, and to withhold the expression of it is to deny that which makes us human...no brute animal can appreciate beauty.
OK good...now I can also describe Chris Evans as very beautiful. :thumbs_up But (half-way) kidding aside, I was merely trying to avoid being perceived in the male stereotype of only judging women by their looks.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Let us fervently hope that Bezos' loyalty and the exec's knowledge of the Canon are manifested in faithfully accurate screenplays.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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"New Zealand government provided reassurances to Amazon that it is a safe place from terrorists..."

I work in physical and cyber security of critical infrastructure. There is no such thing as this and any company (especially one as big as Amazon) knows that nation state and terrorist attacks can happen anywhere, anytime and there is little to nothing we can do about it. Risk mitigation can occur, but risk will never be zero. Regardless, I am SO SO SO SO SO happy that NZ is still our Middle Earth!
"I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend."

Decide what to defend your castle with at www.castlekon.com

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https://www.theonering.net/torwp/2019/0 ... -creators/

There are a couple of names in this video that I was glad to see: John Howe, one of the well-known artists who help do the design work for Jacksons movies, and Tom Shppey, who is one of the biggest Tolkien experts in the world.

This somewhat helps assuage the worries I felt when I read that the character the first announced actor would be playing was some name that does not exist anywhere in the professors works.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Did either of you visit the Twitter site wherein 13K people responded? Some of the memes were pretty funny.
And 99.9 % of people issued the warning that the writers (if they know what's good for them) had better be faithful to the Canon.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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https://io9.gizmodo.com/amazons-lord-of ... 1836079275

I'm very scared given this post, though. I'm a huge Jurassic Park fan, and Fallen Kingdom was...just atrocious. At best it's a popcorn flick, but a lousy one at that. I know that a director in a franchise probably only has so much to do with the final product, but I haven't seen JA Bayona's work (or been inclined to) so it's the only frame of reference I have. His resume doesn't lead me to believe that he has any business directing Tolkien material. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and hope for the best, but my excitement is down a few notches as a result of this announcement.

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I share your fears as this show has a million and one ways to go wrong. This obsession with becoming the next Game of Thrones will be the undoing of 90% of many pretenders to that lofty seat, even if that other show ended badly. I don't know much about Bayona, but Fallen Kingdom was forgettable at best.

It's also a bit funny that they keep talking about this return to Middle-earth but the map that was teased is of Numenor and the Second Age. I guess they don't know that Middle-earth is not the name of the world but rather one continent, and Numenor is definitely not part of it? Sure a lot of events in the Second Age take place in Middle-earth proper, and the Numenoreans spent a lot of time exploring its shores, but if this is to be a show mainly centered about Numenor, then I wish they'd get that detail correct. I wonder if they will use New Zealand for the scenes set in Middle-earth proper, and Scotland will be used for mainland Numenor?

Whatever the case, I'm fervently praying that we get to witness one spectacular moment that I've always wanted to see realized visually ever since I read it: Ar-Pharazon's armada sailing West, and the arrogant and proud king being the first mortal to set foot upon the shores of Valinor seconds before Illuvatar makes his wrath felt, Old Testament style.

Man, I hope they can give that epic moment proper justice. :coolsmile
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Now, I don’t want to sound like a Pollyanna, because I do have some concerns about this production, though they’re not necessarily so much greater than they would be in any event, when such a beloved property is to be adapted for TV. And true, Fallen Kingdom wasn’t the greatest movie ever made, but even the best director can only do so much with a so-so script. But give it a chance, guys! Not a word’s been set to paper yet, as far as we know, and it already sounds like you’re writing it off. And amidst your concerns over J A Bayona, remember a couple of names associated with this production that are far more meaningful. First of all, Tom Shippey is the Tolkien consultant, and there’s scarcely anyone in the world more knowledgeable than he on the source material. That doesn’t mean they’ll listen to him, but from what I’ve read of his writings, he’s not bashful, and it would take an effort to ignore him. Plus, they have John Howe for conceptual artist, so it will look right. Beyond that, One of the Amazon execs, the director of Amazon prime, if I remember correctly, has an alleged encyclopedic knowledge of Tolkien. So, there are some definite positive factors about this. Let’s keep our fingers crossed and hope it’s great.

Beyond that, there are many stunning events in the Second Age that I hope to see on screen. I think my personal favorite would be the collapse of Numenor into the ocean. But there are so many pivotal events in that age. And with a supposed 5 year commitment to the estate, hopefully we’ll get to see many of them. As far as confusing the term Middle earth with all the world, I’m sure at least some of the production knows that, but they may not be giving their audience sufficient credit to know the difference. Obviously we do!
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Olorin wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:12 pm Now, I don’t want to sound like a Pollyanna, because I do have some concerns about this production, though they’re not necessarily so much greater than they would be in any event, when such a beloved property is to be adapted for TV. And true, Fallen Kingdom wasn’t the greatest movie ever made, but even the best director can only do so much with a so-so script. But give it a chance, guys!
To be clear, I am still hopeful! To be honest, I've been fully onboard since the first announcement, and I'm not overly concerned with them being faithful to the original texts. I'm only ever concerned with quality and tone.

Totally agree that a film's director is no indication of quality---as you said, they can only do so much with a so-so script. And in a franchise film, directors have almost no decisions to make. Especially over the big directions of the film (which is where FK failed the most).

But I am still concerned. Again, admittedly, I know nothing about Bayona outside of FK.

I'll be watching this, to be sure. But my excitement dropped a peg.

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BladeCollector wrote: Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:09 am I think we dont give tv series enough time to work out the kinks, we expect to be blown away immediately. Look at season 1 of The Next Generation, or the 9th doctor of Doctor Who?!
Oh for sure, BC, I definitely don't disagree and I do think it's unfair. The problem is that everyone and everything is vying for our limited time and money, so it's critical to make a good first impression. Long gone are the days when we had a smattering of network channels, bolstered by a couple of specialty cable channels. Nowadays we have close to 600 channels of content, not to mention access to an ever-growing field of streaming services, and on-demand options. Add to that internet-capable boxes that allow you to stream programming from other countries, and we are so spoiled for choice you could watch tv for every minute of your life for the next 100 years and still not be able to see everything.

So... today a show needs to be strong out of the gates, or most people won't look back. Sure you can always binge the entire series later, but even that requires time and effort and good word-of-mouth.
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Oh yes we DEFINITELY live in a different time from TNG or even Doctor Who 9th Doctor/Season 1 (2005). Another thing with the streaming channels is, a lot of them, netflix/amazon mass release the entire season. I think that can help/hurt. If the first episode or 2 are kinda blah, I can say, well let me watch one more, etc. But if I watch those first 2 and am not impressed... will I come back for week 3? Then again if I binge a season in a day or 2, and the next season comes out sometimes 2 years later, am I going to come back to it?

Definitely a different time from slow burn to BAM! out of the gate.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
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