You really nailed it on the head there BC.

Just wanna say as well, that I’m reminded how much I enjoy visiting this forum because we can have massively different opinions and not resort to abusing each other. It’s definitely caused a stir, and I know fights are breaking out all over the internet, but thank god that’s not happening here.

Going back to bad writing: I’ve just been reminded about the whole white walker plot in season 7. We all criticised the notion of going beyond the wall to get a white and how that played perfectly into the Night King’s hands because it gave him a dragon.

If that hadn’t happened, none of this would have happened. The Night King wouldn’t have been able to pass the wall. The magical wards that were placed within the wall prevent the White Walkers from crossing it either by scaling it or using the tunnels.

Jon was the one who was adamant that the white walkers were going to get through the wall and destroy everyone but really it would have been fine. If Jon has stayed dead, we wouldn’t be having this conversation right now and we’d be gearing up for a final battle for the throne without complaining about how nonsensical the entire white walker plot line has been.

The white walkers might have walked out into the ocean and around the end of the wall. We already some them on the bottom of the lake to retrieve the dragon carcass. They don’t need to breathe.

Just sayin’!

That in itself is a plot hole though. That and where they got those massive chains from. I’m sure it’s stated within the show that they can’t swim and so can’t travel across the sea. If they could get around it, the wall would be pretty pointless. That’s why Euron lies about going back to the Iron Islands and says he’ll be safe there.

Also if it were the case that they could get around the wall that way, why hadn’t they done it already? The army of the dead was massive, and even if they lost many soldiers trying to swim around they’d still be able to raise more after they attacked human settlements South of the wall

It’s said somewhere they were more or less dormant for thousands of years. It’s only been during the span of the show that they’ve been resurgent, and I assume during that time is when they were building out their army. Euron thinks he can go back to the iron islands and be safe, because he doesn’t know they can walk underwater. Besides that, even if they couldn’t walk underwater, if the ocean freezers near the end of the wall, they can simply walk on ice to get around it. And since the night king had the power to bring winter, I think that’s what he would’ve done if the dragon hadn’t been presented to him.

The theory about the origin of the chains is that they came from nearby Hardhome. Who knows what they were used for, but being a port settlement, it's not unfeasible to have them come from there.

I'm not so sure about the wights' ability to function underwater all that well, but who really knows? What I do know is that there was pretty massive cliff shown to be right where the Wall ends and meets the sea, just beyond Eastwatch. The wights might have survived the water, but not a fall from that height. Watch the final episode of season 7 and you can see that cliff clearly. It's nearly half as tall as the Wall itself and makes sense for the topography and that it would be silly to have the Wall end on a flat beach you can walk around at low tide. I assume the same is true on the western end at the Bay of Seals. With a name like Bran the Builder, I think he knew exactly where to have the Wall end on both sides for maximum efficiency.

So the dust has settled, I’m now looking forward to the weeks ahead.

I read back on the statement that the writers gave about George giving them a rough outline of the ending. They mentioned that the biggest twist comes at the very end so I’m eager to see what that is.

Fingers crossed that it improves. Emilia Clarke has said that episode 5 is far more intense than episode 3. I imagine that’s when we’ll see the battle of Kings Landing.

i have follow this got .my thought is that ,it will end in the same way,where it all started
a reverece .back to where it all begings-

I think episode 4 was a definite step up in quality. So nice to be able to actually see what was going on too.

Interestingly, this is getting more flak than episode 3 which I think is a little undeserved. Though, to be honest my criticisms of episode 3 would be branded as undeserved by other fans.

There’s definitely some oddities and I know some people were complaining about Brienne but I really felt for Brienne during this episode. I’m trying to keep it light on spoilers until everyone has seen it.

I hope we get more Cersei before she dies, if she dies. I know some of you are rooting for her to die and in many ways I am too, but I’d be happy with her being kept alive if that was possible. I do pity her, after everything she’s been through.

I’m eager now to see how the battle of King’s Landing will go down. Another character who I really enjoyed and felt for was Dany. Emilia Clarke is definitely showing herself to be a great actress. I feel confident in saying I know where we are going, I think history will repeat itself. The Mad King’s daughter indeed.

Seen it... spoilers below:

GoT weariness is setting in for me to the point that I barely want to discuss this show anymore. It's odd that after eagerly anticipating this season for over a year, the crushing weigh of disappointment has reached a climax already.

I'll say that last night's episode was a marked step up from the previous one, but the unrelenting pace at which events are being thrown at us with no time to digest anything is really taking its toll on me. I mean, to go from the destruction of the Night King and his army in Winterfell to a confrontation before the gates of King's Landing, involving the *same* characters, in just over one hour of television time is something that no viewer on this show would ever contemplate as being possible during seasons 1-6. Yet now, and with the bad precedents set by season 7's time and distance compressions and the showrunners seemingly in a desperate rush to get off this show, this is what we get: a total loss of what made this show so great - pace.

Yeah, yeah... the end is near, the characters have had their moments, time to wrap it up so no more need for talk and wandering about. I've heard all the arguments and it seems they are all being made by impatient people that couldn't care less about understanding how this story has unfolded up until very recently. I don't understand why the decision was made to shorten these last two seasons, but the effect is plain to see because everything feels rushed, the audience is getting whiplash, and all the characters and storylines that had been so beautifully set up are being discarded or hastily wrapped faster than a raven can fly in Westeros.

With the bitter aftertaste of the anti-climatic wrap-up of the White Walker story still fresh in my mouth, we get even more confirmation that none of it mattered by having zero mention of what any of those events meant, by Bran or anyone else. A toast to Arya being a hero is pretty much it. Not that I wanted an entire episode of people dwelling on what just happened, but the event is treated with about as much gravity as the unceremonious way in which the Night King was dispatched, which is to say everyone's already forgotten about it like it was a minor inconvenience that thousands died to stop a supernatural army of ice zombies. Ok, cool.

In previous seasons, there were ramifications, discussions, plots, counterplots, and consequences borne of every action, big or small, that took place. The show has now foregone any attempt at complexity in its mad dash to King's Landing and finishing up, and none of this would have been necessary if they had just taken a bit more time to plan this out with a few additional episodes. As it stands, it feels like we have two incredibly different shows on our hands at this point, the one in the past, and the one we are watching now.

A few observations on the episode itself:

- Bronn (who can also teleport or use fast travel) inexplicably walks into a room within the depths of Winterfell, unchallenged, bearing a loaded crossbow? Logic has completely gone out the window, I see.

- The utter lack of sound military tactics continues to sink the believability of this show. It seems neither Jon or Dani has ever heard of one of the most basic rules of war - scouting and recon. Nevermind the massive blunders at Winterfell, but did they forget that Cersei has a massive fleet at her disposal, and that Dragonstone is an island practically on King's Landing's doorstep?!? Why wouldn't you send a small force or a couple of fast ships ahead to see if it was safe to return or even attempt to locate Euron's ships before blithely sailing into a trap like they're on an afternoon cruise through friendly waters? How do two high-flying dragons and their rider not spot all those ships below? Was Euron magically commanding that fog bank to stay in place until the last moment? How convenient!

- Following up on that, three bolts are fired at Rhaegal and they all critically hit him. Ok. Then 30 more get fired at a diving and then banking Drogon, but all conveniently miss without so much as a graze? Ok.

- Even a ballista that is mounted on a swivel would have a hard time firing to the rear without hitting your own masts and rigging. Why did Dani not simply fly around and behind them to burn the ships??? This show has gone full Hollywood-spectacle, sacrificing any kind of logic or common sense for the sake of cool-looking moments. For a show so previously grounded in realism, it has become pure fantasy shlock that is bathed in coincidence and convenience.

- The revelation of Jon's true parentage has been one of the most awaited for moments on this show, and the reactions of the main characters to it is something we've all been waiting for. So when Jon finally tells Sansa and Arya? Cut the scene out. Why???? And then, without any time to digest on process the information, Sansa promptly reneges on her oath and tells Tyrion. I'm not opposed to her decision, but there was no in-between context for her make it. No sense of time passing, We weren't even present to see her original reaction to the news! Seriously?

- Arya is off to King's Landing. Let me guess - she's going to kill Cersei. Ok, here comes the unstoppable Godlike character that this show never had before and is suddenly now available to do everything else an entire cast of other characters was unable to do in seven seasons. Or, will the writers finally show some original thinking and have her kill Dani instead? Is this why we didn't see her reaction to Jon's revelation? Is Arya going to be Varys' secret weapon to remove the Mad Queen? That's one twist I could actually live with. Even if she kills Jaime, takes his face to get close to Cersei, and then performs the deed, all credit still goes to newest Goddess in Westeros.

- I don't get the hate being levelled at Brienne's reaction to Jaime leaving her. I understand that this can seem like a reversal for her and does not speak well to the feminist values that the character represents but I think the rabid complainers are failing to take into account that she is allowed to show some vulnerability and emotion, and that she's dealing with a situation that is completely unfamiliar to her. She has no experience with love other than her admiration for Jaime and an impossible infatuation borne of gratitude for Renly. She is out of her depth, and it showed. I don't think there was anything wrong with her crying versus everyone saying she should have slugged Jaime and stormed off. Get a life, people.

- Another matter that is receiving undue amounts of vitriol online is the perceived turnabout in Dani's character, with claims the show is unfairly propelling her into the villain role of the Mad Queen, and that this is coming out of nowhere!?! These are no doubt the same people that claimed that Arya has been preparing the entire show for the moment she killed the Night King, yet did not pick up on all the multitude of clues that Dani is not exactly stable, has made many questionable decisions, and has shown time and time again that he is very much capable of becoming the very same kind of tyrant that she seeks to depose. I just don't get how people think this is coming out of left field for her. Her reaction to Jon's revelation was spot on, and her telling him not to say anything... or else, continues that trend. To say now that this is out of character is revisionist history of this show at its worst. Arya killing the Night King *was* a shock despite the after-the-fact being claimed by everyone now. Dani finally losing her shit and becoming what everyone has been advising her against the entire show? Sorry, but we saw this coming a mile away.

Yep, I truly am spent now. Two episodes left and so much still yet to resolve... or is there? At the pace they are going, everything already feels so rushed that the remaining two and a half hours almost feels like overkill at this point.

Yeh they’ve definitely been pushing Dany this way for quite some time. I was hoping someone would keep her level headed as best as they could but I think it’s a foregone conclusion at this point that Dany will not sit on the iron throne.

Brienne crying made total sense to me. I think, as much as I don’t want to believe this to be the case, I agree with you Val. Brienne seems to have annoyed some critics because she goes against feminist ideologies. I personally, though I don’t know what authority I may have, don’t think that’s the case. I think denying a character a moment to show her vulnerability and to show how powerful her emotions were is very wrong. But also this character has just lost her virginity, as stated in the show, which is an emotionally charged experienced by itself, but she lost it to someone who she clearly has strong feelings for.

Her crying at him leaving her is 100% fine with me. Thats a very normal and real human response to this sort of situation. It doesn’t mean Brienne isn’t strong by any means.

I wanna know where all the zombies went??? There were millions of them in the previous episode. Did they just vanish with the Night King.

I’m still upset over the Night King and as much as I wanted there to be more, I don’t see how it could work in a satisfying way considering we only have two episodes left.

Lindir wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 8:32 amI wanna know where all the zombies went??? There were millions of them in the previous episode. Did they just vanish with the Night King.

I’m still upset over the Night King and as much as I wanted there to be more, I don’t see how it could work in a satisfying way considering we only have two episodes left.

1) I wouldn't say millions, but at least several hundred thousand. Yep, they all conveniently disappeared because it's only the White Walkers, not the wights, that shatter into a million ice pieces when killed. This is just another example of what happens when the show has no time to deal with logic. One could say "Well, it could be several weeks have passed and they got rid of the corpses and we didn't need to see that." Wrong. The Winterfell dead were still fresh and their funeral was right at the beginning, and Sansa makes a point of saying the survivors are wounded and tired. So, time only moves fast when it's convenient for the show.

2) See above. There will never be any kind of satisfactory conclusion and answers to any and all questions about the Night King and his quest because the show left itself no time to deal with that. Honestly, if this is how they were going to dispose of that entire storyline, I wish they had gotten it over with halfway through the show, not at the end. You save things for the end that matter, and this ultimately did not, except to conveniently weaken the northern armies for Cersei. For all the story payoff the White Walkers had, they should have dispatched them earlier and gotten back to do what the show does best: politics and intrigue through gripping character development.

GoT is suffering from the lack of guidance from Martin's books now, and it really shows. It was ok at first, but any attempts at nuance and plot developments that make sense have fully gone out the window, and the show is fully adrift now because the writers stopped giving a crap, and if they try, they have no time.

I liked this episode more than episode 3, because, well most of it took place in the day time.

Oh yea, Dany become a psychopath has been obvious for a few seasons now. She's lost 2 dragons, she lost Missandei, she's attempted to force Jon to keep the Targaryen revelation a secret because she is fearful he will take the throne from her. In her mind she's lost the same as what Cersei has lost (her kids) If you go back and watch Cersei's reactions after each of her kids were killed/died, you can see any since of love or emotion just fade away and she became the heartless psycho she is now. She's always been cruel but the loss of her kids left her with nothing to care for other than power.

That shot to the head with to Rhaegal was brutal. I am no expert in trajectories, but if Dany from WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY up in the sky can't see Euron's fleet behind the cliff thing, then Euron's fleet wouldnt have been able to see the dragon. Also with the heat at which dragon fire must burn, why didnt Drogon shoot fire as he was flying towards the ships, he would have burned up those big arrows up before they got to him?

Also the script supervisor missed a Starbucks cup in the dinner scene.

Haha Val, the millions of zombies was just an over exaggeration. The point being they still did vanish somewhere.

I fear you’re right about the Night King but I cant shake the thought that there’s something more. But I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I think it’s simply wishful thinking on my part.

I mean it’s true that his motivation had in part already been revealed in season 6 when we saw the children of the forest creating him. But they never once explained why he then turned on the children and why he so badly wanted to destroy the three eyed raven. It looks like they won’t even explain what the hell the three eyed raven is even for at this point, apart from the memory thing which is total bollocks.

Yeh the death of Rhaegal was awful. I felt so bad for him. I’m not quite sure how the sequence was meant to play out. If it were edited differently it may have worked. I’m gonna have to rewatch it again, but I don’t think Dany was high enough to see past Dragonstone, and so when Euron’s ships sailed around one of the cliff faces they could technically launch a surprise attack. Like I said, need to rewatch it again though but the way it’s edited definitely makes it look like they just appear out of nowhere.

It could well be that we are reading too much into the Night King and making him out to be something much more than what he really was: a weapon that turned on its creators.

The problem is that this show set itself up from the go to be so multi-layered and complex, that it becomes very hard to accept that there wasn't somehow more to the White Walker threat than a mere inevitable and surprisingly simple threat of total annihilation. With all the hinted-at morsels of mysterious history, the introduction of the Three-Eyed Raven, and the revelation of the Night King's origins, the groundwork was laid for some motivation or secret that lay tantalizingly close, yet just always out of reach... something that would have some kind of earth-shattering payoff and consequence for those trying to stop him other than the mere threat of death. In the end, he turned out to be nothing more than someone who was used for a purpose he did not agree to, and then spent the next few thousand years biding his time to exact his revenge. It's very one-dimensional, but unfortunately the writers chose to stop there and not explore this any further.

Everything that was introduced in this show was done so with a purpose that resulted in a slow-burn and cascade of events that are now careening toward their conclusion. Yet, it was all done with such a high degree of intricate nuance that the Night King and his White Walkers can't be anything but a disappointment when they proved to be nothing more than what we were shown. This isn't to say that they actually are that simple, and that what Martin eventually intends for them isn't actually of much greater significance. Sadly, as far as the show itself is concerned, this plot point is already largely forgotten one mere episode later after a buildup that took 69 episodes... gods, that feels hard to accept, but its true!

You’re totally right Val. We definitely all expected something more complex regarding the Night King. The fact that he’s waited a thousand years too suggests something was going on. But the show just makes it seem like he was waiting for someone to be stupid enough to ride a dragon beyond the wall so he can kill it.

It’s leaving me with the same bitter after tase in my mouth that I got after Littlefinger’s death. That was another plot point that stagnated and went nowhere. After season 4 they had no idea what to do with him. He was easily the main human villain, he caused it all and his death should have had more payoff than it did but in the end they tried to write it to make it look like he was outwitted by Sansa and Arya when it makes literally no sense anyway. But you know, I’ve been beating this horse for some time now

My excitement for future episodes is dead. We only have two more to go now and I don’t feel ready to say goodbye but I just want it over with. I want to know if it was worth waiting all this time for.

I wonder if George will voice his opinions on season 8. He’s said for a few years now that the show is it’s own thing and he’s always seemed quite dismissive of it.

He’s hoping the Witcher show can fill the void left by GOT and hopefully avoid the following the same path that GOT has. I guess I should be happy in knowing that the Witcher book series is finished at least.

Immediate disclaimer: I have neither read the books nor watched the series.
However, I have followed the story arc, using the fan wiki/forums, wikipedia, watching youtube clips, etc, and have a good friend who has read the books several times. So I use her as a source to explain the intricacies/ machinations when I get confused (can't know the players without a program).

So all I can say about the series is: the conclusion is pretty disappointing, displaying the worst of incompetent storytelling.
I had to laugh (in sympathy) with some of your objections, Val, especially some of the patently contrived solutions.
It reminds me of the two nerdy guys who (in a parody) are writing an episode of LOTR where Frodo and Sam enter Mordor.
"Yeah, and we could have umm, two Ninja bears go with them."
"Yeah, that would be cool because they could destroy the orcs!"

And anyone following the series can't even resort to the books for satisfaction because, from my understanding, GRRM hasn't completed the story, and has admitted that he really doesn't know how to end it.

I think whoever is producing/funding this wants to wrap it up quickly and move on to something new. Screenwriters, ditto.
Maybe they are on the short list for Bezos Middle Earth project and want to get started on that.
Which, if true, (and might be true regardless who gets that plum) see above about expediently contrived storylines.

Deimos, you are very close to the mark. The show's two producers and main writers, David Benioff and Dan Weiss, have been contracted by Disney to begin writing/developing the next trilogy of films set in the Star Wars universe once the current Skywalker saga wraps up. Since the last movie of that saga comes out this year already, you can see why these two guys are chomping at the bit for Game of Thrones to be over and done with.

The money behind the show is HBO, and if it were up to them, they wanted 10 seasons out of this thing because it turns in a massive profit for them and the viewership is something that most cable/streaming services can only dream of. However, even more money was dangled in front of David and Dan by Disney, and they balked at the thought of being tied down to the show for another two years. That, and most of the cast was ready to move on after nine years.

It really is a shame because it doesn't deserve to go out this way, but go out it will, and not well. I didn't know that Martin had admitted to not knowing how to finish his own story, but if that is true, it makes it easier to understand why Benioff and Weiss are failing miserably to fill in the blanks. After all, if the author of this whole thing is lost as to what next, how can these guys even come close to coming up with something that can do the whole thing justice?

Valkrist wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 9:16 pm Deimos, you are very close to the mark. The show's two producers and main writers, David Benioff and Dan Weiss, have been contracted by Disney to begin writing/developing the next trilogy of films set in the Star Wars universe once the current Skywalker saga wraps up. Since the last movie of that saga comes out this year already, you can see why these two guys are chomping at the bit for Game of Thrones to be over and done with.

It really is a shame because it doesn't deserve to go out this way, but go out it will, and not well. I didn't know that Martin had admitted to not knowing how to finish his own story, but if that is true, it makes it easier to understand why Benioff and Weiss are failing miserably to fill in the blanks. After all, if the author of this whole thing is lost as to what next, how can these guys even come close to coming up with something that's even close to doing the whole thing justice?

Yep. I read that somewhere and my friend confirmed it. The Martin GOT (really Song of Ice and Fire...GOT is the name of the first book) "ended" (GRRM got writer's block) when Jon Snow died.
Those two writers/producers took over at that point with their Ninja bears.
And from the comments I've seen on the Fan wiki/forums they did a pretty good job of filling the blanks.
But as they had to create more and more story relying on their own talents (or lack of them), the story, [further] character development and dialogue started to suffer.

Sorry, I was editing my post to add more thoughts and information even as you quoted me and replied. All good.

Yes, I agree and should be fair in saying that at first, they did an admirable job. Many who were both into the books and the show (I've not read the books) said it was even better than Martin in some ways. But then complacency, lack of vision, and lastly a blind rush, just took over them and never let go. Now we have a bunch of sharks lined up and the jumping goes on unabated.

Valkrist wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 9:44 pm Sorry, I was editing my post to add more thoughts and information even as you quoted me and replied. All good.

Yes, I agree and should be fair in saying that at first, they did an admirable job. Many who were both into the books and the show (I've not read the books) said it was even better than Martin in some ways. But then complacency, lack of vision, and lastly a blind rush, just took over them and never let go. Now we have a bunch of sharks lined up and the jumping goes on unabated.

Slight hijack here....
You know, until about 2 years ago I never exactly knew what "jumping the shark" meant.
Oh, I understood it well enough from context to know that it had to do with some wild contrivance as a desperate, last resort to save a story (or series).
But having only watched a few episodes of Happy Days I never saw its decline.
So I finally watched the J-the-S episode on youtube.
omg
That has to rank as one of the most godawful episodes ever shown, for any series.
For a writer to be told that he has written a J-the-S episode, I can't imagine a worse humiliation.

I don’t think it was Star Wars that made them rush. In fact, it was mentioned a few years ago that the show would end with season 8 and they were both signed on to do another original show for HBO which got a lot of flack. I can’t remember the details of it though. Their Star Wars movies also are not going to start their theatrical run until 2022.

I think it was considered better than the books initially because adapting it and writing original material are two very different tasks. When adapting you really get to polish a story, based on your own taste. So that was always going to be somewhat easier and they were very good at that as the first 4 seasons and a bit of season 5 are testament to that.

I think Martin stating he doesn’t know how to end it is a misquote. Martin gave the creators the outline of the endgame he had for the show. What’s taking him so long to finish the books is, as he himself refers to it as being a gardener, so he allows his characters to grow. He does have some plans but he gives his characters and stories to grow naturally which is why it’s taking so long. I’ll probably end up going back to the books after the season ends.

As you may have heard, some spoilers have been circulating about the ending. They were dead on about episode 4. I’ve read them and... well... you’ll see. I’ll say only this: I hope to god that they’re fake.

Still, I’m going to enjoy the spectacle of the battle of King’s Landing in next weeks episode. It should be interesting. Unless they decided to shoot it at night again

Lindir wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 7:01 am As you may have heard, some spoilers have been circulating about the ending. They were dead on about episode 4. I’ve read them and... well... you’ll see. I’ll say only this: I hope to god that they’re fake.

I also read said spoilers. And they were incredibly dead on with episode 4. A friend texted me a picture of the rumors and said “read at your own peril.” And then I did. And I completely agree - I hope they do not come to pass. I mean, a few of the ones from the early part of episode are fine. But that ending? No. Just no.

Guys... you're scaring the crap out of me.

Despite some major stumbles recently, I'm still holding out some faint hope that this show will wrap up in a semi-satisfactory way that pleases the majority of viewers. Anything less is going to feel like a brutal disappointment and a waste of ten years.

Let's hope those leaks/rumours are wrong and you guys can feel free to reveal them after the fact because I'm very curious.

I just want to say something regarding subversion of expectations. Rian Johnson is getting a bit of flak again on forums and I think people are implying he is somewhat responsible for encouraging the GOT show-runners the freedom to subvert expectations.

I know that the majority of the people here didn’t enjoy The Last Jedi but I want to defend Rian Johnson a little. Whilst he subverted our expectations with the story, with Snoke and most importantly with Luke, he wasn’t doing it for the sake of subverting expectations. The questions that were posed during the production of TFA was who is Luke Skywalker and what does he mean to the galaxy? We saw in the TFA how Luke and the Jedi were regarded only as mythical beings almost. He wanted to question what had Luke been up to in that time and as with most humans, Luke failed and blamed himself for the evil that had arisen in the galaxy once again and so exiled himself.

Of course that was massively at odds with what people had expected him to be up to and our expectations were subverted but they were still able to tell a satisfying story that added a lot of complexity to Luke and were also able to redeem him and provide a conclusion to his story in one movie.

Now, going back to GOT. The show-runners are subverting expectations for the sake of it. It’s as if the original show-runners had quit and HBO brought in two amateurs who had a creative meeting to decide what makes GOT work and they came to the conclusion that it was merely shock value and unpredictability. Story and characters be damned. Euron appearing out of nowhere to kill Rhaegal, Arya dropping out of the sky to kill the Night King by finding a gap in his armour that isn’t actually there in any other shots and Littlefinger having his throat cut open last season whilst trying *TRYING* to trick we, the audience, into believing that Sansa and Arya were capable of outplaying him. As if.

Not wanting to sound overly dramatic, but I am somewhat heart broken at the shows decline in quality. LOTR took me through childhood, and GOT carried me through my late teens into my now mid-twenties and both were defining pieces of story telling for me. LOTR inspired me greatly and GOT did early on but now it’s burst into a ball of flames and kind of ruined the earlier seasons for me.

With that said, the spoilers me and Striders Heir are alluding to seem to just show that they have no idea what they’re doing. The only exception to this is the conclusion of one particular characters story. I know many people are complaining about this already, but looking back I think that was meant to be all along and I also believe it was the final twist that George told them about. No spoilers but we can discuss it once the show ends.

The actual ending if the leaks are to be believed is utter crap. It’s not satisfying in the slightest and I don’t see how it brings any conclusion to the story at all.

One thing that I don’t think is overly spoilery, as many of you had believed this to be the case anyway, which I’ll reveal from the leaks: the Night King definitely doesn’t return. There’s no mention of him or the white walkers in any of it. So that’s that

Lindir wrote: Wed May 08, 2019 9:27 pm...One thing that I don’t think is overly spoilery, as many of you had believed this to be the case anyway, which I’ll reveal from the leaks: the Night King definitely doesn’t return. There’s no mention of him or the white walkers in any of it. So that’s that

The entire northern threat obliterated in [literally] one fell swoop by a mere slip of a girl....who would have thunk it?
(Dernhelm, call your office....)

I think Eowyn slaying the Witchking was far more satisfying, and no one had been set up as being the one destined to kill him within the story. Though it is an interesting parallel that I hadn’t considered before.

It had been prophesied in terms of setup in that Glorfindel said that not by the hand of man will he fall. Of course, that could have also meant elf, dwarf, etc. However, since there were no other prominent women in the story other than Eowyn (can't count Arwen or Galadriel since they weren't in the battle,) then it became rather obvious that if the prophecy indeed meant a woman, then she was the only one on deck to do the deed.

There's also another major difference in that the Witch-king was not Sauron, so defeating him did not mean the collapse of the evil armies... not by a long shot,

This is the part where Deimos comes in to tell me I'm over-thinking this.

A girl (again) kicks major a$$...that was all I was saying.....

Deimos wrote: Thu May 09, 2019 6:16 am A girl (again) kicks major a$$...that was all I was saying.....

Which I have no issues with at all... just set up the scene in a logical fashion for the viewer, please, and not have said girl have heretofore unknown powers of invisibility, flight, and teleportation. Also, no arguments of "oh, but the library scene set up how stealthy she can be." Fine, except we're talking about a snow-covered field versus a stone floor, and a villain surrounded by powerful and intelligent White Walker warriors, not mindless, shuffling wights.

But it's ok... in Season 6, Arya showed us that she was a Marvel-universe mutant anyway with her amazing regenerative powers that would put Wolverine to shame.

By the way, we altered the profanity filter long ago to allow the word 'ass'..

Never knew she had all those super powers.
As I mentioned previously, I have been following the story but I don't know all the details about all the characters.
I did know she was being trained for something or other (a$$a$$in, maybe? )

I know you don't watch the show so yes, it's difficult to give context to my words without seeing it happening onscreen.

To not sell the character short in any way, yes, she spent an entire season undergoing some exceptionally brutal training at the hands of a ruthless and feared assassin organization. They essentially skin the face of their victims, which allows them to then wear it and assume their identity. I suspect there is magic involved as this apparently enables them to replicate the victim's voice and physical stature perfectly as well, though this is never explained on the show.

My Wolverine reference is due to an episode where Arya is stabbed twice in the gut with a long dagger. She is wearing no armour, the blade is seen going into the side of her stomach to the hilt, and she escapes by jumping into a city canal, which I need not tell you in an accurate medieval setting, would be riddled with infectious diseases. So, with two wounds that would prove fatal to just about anyone (and mind you, the show has previously established how easily you can die from such wounds in a realistic fashion,) she manages to make her way to a friend's place, drink a herbal concoction, and I assume, have her cuts sewn, which does absolutely nothing for punctured organs and internal hemorrhaging, not to mention deadly infections. She then awakens an undisclosed time later, though the show makes it seem like only a few hours, then immediately manages to get into a violent street chase, complete with death-defying leaps and landings from heights that would be difficult for the best of athletes, never mind someone convalescing from seemingly fatal injuries acquired only hours ago. She then proceeds to battle and kill someone that is pretty much her equal in skill and has the advantage of being unhurt, emerging from the whole ordeal fresh as a spring blossom. Wounds? What wounds?

Fast forward to the Night King slaying scene - picture a large clearing in a wooded area, covered in loud, crunchy snow. The bad guy is surrounded by a dozen of his best warriors, all vicious, supernatural beings. There is no clear line to him, and no obvious place to hide, and the terrain does not appear to be stealth-friendly. Yet, suddenly the Night King turns, and there is Arya, flying through the air literally out of nowhere, having leapt off of... nothing? and completely unseen and unheard by the bodyguards, who conveniently don't even appear in that shot, except for the wisp of a breeze that flutters one's hair as our presumably invisible and flying at hyper speeds heroine manages to pass them. She must then pull a Legolas move that we never see, runs using their confused heads as stepping stones, and comes down upon the Night King like an avenging superhero screaming death from above.

So... apologies for the long-winded explanation. I'm totally over the girl getting the kill. She trained for it; props to her. It had to be someone. However, set up the scene in a believable way, and fend off the eye-rolling and accusations of being supernaturally overpowered by SHOWING us a glimpse or two of how she got there and evaded everyone else. This is a perfect example of writers being backed into a corner and conveniently letting go of common sense to pull off their cool moment. That's lazy writing, plain and simple, and I detest it.

THank you for the back story....as I said, you can't know the players without a program.

"She manages to make her way to a friend's place, drink a herbal concoction, and I assume, have her cuts sewn, which does absolutely nothing for punctured organs and internal hemorrhaging, not to mention deadly infections. "

Wrong-o Bucko! You weren't paying attention....that was an Ent draught she drank.
And as everyone here knows, Ent draughts will heal your wounds faster than you can say "Let's not be hasty!"

You're a smart-a$$, you know that?

Count yourself lucky I don't just...

*ahem*....let us not be hasty.... ; )

The leaks / rumors / spoilers were true. Maybe like Dexter, I can pretend the last season doesn’t exist and enjoy everything else for what it was.

I’m at a loss for words with what I just watched.

Yes, they were right. These story beats were the ones I liked the sound of and seeing them play out was a mixture of emotions for me. The ending is still open though. We don’t know what’s really going to happen just yet and after this I’m hoping we won’t see that ending coming to pass.

SPOILERS AHEAD!!!!






The emotional moments really hit and seeing a number of characters dying was satisfying and emotionally devastating. The Hound and Cersei and Jaime’s deaths really hit hard. The episode was shot beautifully and showed off the directors talents far better than The Long Night.

The Golden Company were utterly useless though. Not entirely sure why they went to the lengths of designing their armour and casting a new character to lead them for them to just be killed straight away.

In many ways this felt like what GOT should be and is easily the best episode this season in my opinion. Hopefully the finale will provide us all with a satisfying ending to this saga.

By the way, in the trailer for the next episode is that snow or ash? I thought it was ash at first but it does also look like snow. Has winter finally come to King’s Landing?

Lindir wrote: Sun May 12, 2019 6:31 pm Has winter finally come to King’s Landing?

Still pining for the return of the Night King? Ain't happening, sunshine. I definitely think that was ash, not snow, and Daenerys was facing a burnt King's Landing as she descended the ruined steps of the Red Keep.

As for the episode itself... surprisingly far more in it that I liked than didn't like, except once again for the buildup to something that essentially becomes a total non-event (the defense of the city,) and along with that goes the Golden Company, which plays out like a mini version of the Night King and his White Walkers: all bark and no bite in the end.

Also, everything that Drogon did this episode was somehow impossible on a much smaller scale in the previous episode?!? What happened to those amazing scorpion snipers that they had in ep. 4? Consistency and logic is not this show's forte.

At least I got my wish: Arya did not kill Cersei. She does have a queen to kill alright, just not that one.

Let the wails of despair for the Daenerys-loving crowd begin! Sweet music to my ears.

Yeh... I’m still salty about the Night King. I’ve also added Varys to the list of character deaths I’m salty about.

I don’t think it’ll be Arya. I kinda get the feeling that Arya might turn her back on it all. After experiencing so much bloodshed at such an early age, she might decided to hang up her sword and dagger.


Edit:

Just thinking about Varys and remembered now we’re definitely not going to find out whose voice he heard and what they said when he had his genitals removed. It felt like it was important. It came up again in season 6.

It’s odd. Even though we’re approaching the final episode I still can’t quite believe how bad this has turned out to be. The cast members haven’t exactly been holding back either. I’ve seen a few videos today where cast members don’t seem very enthusiastic about this season.

Oh where does one begin? Spoiler warning of course, and also, these are going to be my free flowing thoughts, so they may jump around.

I think the only satisfaction I am getting with Game of Thrones now is having everyone's fan theories they KNOW are going to be right on, end up being COMPLETELY and UTTERLY WRONG! No mega dragon, no more dragons, no Arya Killing Cersei, no Jamie killing Cersei etc etc etc...

What was the point of killing Varys? He betrayed her? Why not kill Jon or Tyrion for the same thing?

I am #teamcersei all the way I WANTED her to live somehow, I am pleased in her death. She wasnt executed, she wasnt desecrated. She stupidly held out too long in the keep and should have evacuated a long time ago, but she died with Jamie worried about the one thing that ever mattered to her, was her children (I assume she was really pregnant, or she took that lie allllll the way to her death).

I knew/assumed Dany would turn into a mad queen, but I thought maybe, you know with some good storytelling, it would have happened next episode. I saw her taking Tyrion's advice, stopping the attack and then beginning of next episode all the people are "YAY JON YAY JON!" and she loses it and goes off.
Qyburn's death - now THAT is something I can get behind. Loved Cersei after that, she picks up her dress, has that "ok... well, I'll be going now" and side steps the Mountain and Hound and is off.

The Clegane fight was satisfactory, something we've been wanting for quite a few seasons now. I did like how the Hound finally (maybe) talked some sense into Arya.

Echoing Val... how in the 7 hells did Drogon do all that in this episode, but couldnt fart a flame last episode and take out one ship?

I did like the last embrace between Tyrion and Jamie, a nice full circle for them and even do the bitter end and all she ever did to him, Tyrion wanted Cersei to be safe.

On Cersei being pregnant: given how much time we could theorise has past since she first announced her pregnancy last season, surely there’d be more physical signs?

When the season 7 scripts leaked, in episode 7 there was a scene where Cersei had a miscarriage which obviously never aired in either episode 7 or any time during season 8. I am curious to find out if she was actually pregnant or not. She’s still very slender even up until the time of her death.

I agree with you though BC. Her death was fitting. I know people are unhappy about Jaime going back to her but I honestly think it’s in his character. As cruel and twisted as they both are, they do love each other. Jaime also loves Brienne but just not as much as Cersei. Much like Littlefinger, the big bad villains are revealed to be very real and very scared in the end as we all would be.

My only complaint for Cersei is I wish she had a little more to do this season. The majority of her time has been spent just standing around and staring dramatically.

But she can stare dramatically with the best of them! haha

As far as more physical signs, ie baby bump. I've learned time is relative to the characters and plot lines in Westeros, and dont line up, even for people standing next to each other.

Ran into a couple minor GoT stars this weekend at Comicpalooza in Houston, Texas

BladeCollector wrote: Mon May 13, 2019 5:23 am As far as more physical signs, ie baby bump. I've learned time is relative to the characters and plot lines in Westeros, and dont line up, even for people standing next to each other.

lol... If we had an upvoting system or likes on this forum, I would give this comment a million points.

But seriously, the amount of time that surely had to pass between when Cersei first announced her pregnancy and the moment of her death has to have been months, although the show's writers did their darned best to make it look like it was only a week or two. So, we are left with three options:

1) It was a lie from the start, which means Qyburn was trained to lie on cue.
2) She miscarried but kept up the lie to manipulate Jaime, Tyrion, and Euron.
3) She was indeed pregnant at the time of her death but clearly had a clause in her contract that forbad strapping a pillow to her belly or something.

Whatever the case, we never got an explanation to Euron not even blinking when Tyrion was at the gates and spoke about a child that he shouldn't have known about, unless Euron just accepts that Westeros has a gossip newspaper that everyone reads.

Moving on, I am fine with how Jaime and Cersei died. It was not at all how I expected them to go, but I respect the decision to give them a private death, going out of the world as they came into it: together. As much as I felt that Jaime was going to kill her, it was self-evident that the thought was nowhere near his mind when he and Tyrion are speaking in the tent. After that, I thought that maybe he would die saving her from Arya or something. That they died alone with each other is symbolic of the way they lived their lives: isolated from everything and everyone. His final words to her couldn't be more true of the reality of their lives. That the Red Keep became their tomb was also fitting: she sacrificed everything to become its queen, and now she is buried there, among the other past rulers of the place. I fully agree with Lindir though in that she was woefully underused this season, and that the whole thing seems rushed in the end because it happens so fast and we got so little out of her for the last few episodes. Honestly, I can't remember more than two or three lines she has uttered in the past five episodes, and for what she meant to this show, that's a sad disservice. As for Jaime, I desperately wanted him to achieve that redemption we all wanted from him, but he proved us all fools because it's that old saying "people don't change," and he knew that better than anyone else around him. My heart is broken for Brienne and Tyrion, who will never learn of their ultimate fate.

All in all, the show has just felt too rushed, to the point that characters are now simply moving along like robots and only making decisions and taking actions that conveniently drive them from one scene to the next in order to get the show over and done with. This is now Game of Convenience, rather than Game of Thrones. Seriously, why make a point of showing us Daenerys' army get decimated up north, have them discuss how few men they have left by comparison with Cersei, and how the latter holds the upper hand, only to then have all that not matter one bit as the magically resurrected Dothraki horde and Unsullied armies just steamroll over the city? I get that their planning was predicated on them not using the dragons to destroy the city, which makes sense as without Drogon, it would have turned into a conventional siege and then Cersei would have won for sure. The problem then becomes how they set up the dragons to be so vulnerable in the previous episode, only to them turn around and make those previously deadly accurate ballistae suddenly utterly useless. Honestly, how many of them did you even see fire? I think I counted two, maybe three. How many ships where in the bay, and how many of the city's towers had those? Oh we see plenty of them getting burned, but they are all standing still and not firing, but in the last episode, three bolts kill one dragon immediately and Daenerys veers off from her attack because then it was certain death, but a week later it no longer matters? C'mon. Again, convenience.

The Clegane fight was cool and long overdue, but in the grand scheme of things and given the earth-shattering repercussions of everything else going on, it seemed oddly inconsequential and overly long. Don't get me wrong - I love the Hound and his journey - it just seemed weird to spend so much time on that fight in this episode when he gets a more overall satisfying exit from the show than two of its biggest characters, Jaime and Cersei.

What else? Arya needs to wise up and kill Daenerys, and I hope Jon got the serious wake up call he needed to understand who it was that he fell in love with. I still think he will be stupid enough to try and reason with her in the end, and give his life to save hers. I don't care at this point because the character seems to have lost all meaning and purpose after the Night King threat,

As for Varys, that was one of the moments that truly upset me because he was a genuinely good and well-written character, and died trying do the right thing and avoid the outcome that everyone else around them seemed wilfully blind to. Daenerys didn't kill Jon because she still loves him and couldn't bring herself to do it, and she didn't kill Tyrion because he proved his loyalty by ratting out Varys. She did warn him though about making one more mistake, so he's on notice. If she ever finds out that he left Jaime go, he's dragon toast, but I'm not sure he's going to be sticking around for that to happen given the horror of what he just saw happening in the city. Varys' final words have to be ringing very loudly in his ears and I'm not sure Tyrion can take the guilt at this point.

One small mystery: to whom do you think Varys was sending that letter he wrote at the beginning of the episode? Anyone alive that still matters already knows of Jon's parentage, and it is clear the letter was meant to assert his claim to the throne over Daenerys. Also, just before he is arrested, he has a letter in his hands and then burns it. Was it the same one from the beginning, which he never sent, or a second one? Some time did pass between the two scenes, so I'm left wondering. One theory I have is that the first letter was sent to Oldtown. Armed with that knowledge, the Maesters of Westeros, the only body that the people seem to respect as a whole, could spread the word to the populace that Jon is the rightful king. As Daenerys stated that he is loved here and she is feared, this would be one last master stroke by Varys to incite a popular uprising against her by having the knowledge out in the open that she is a foreigner and not the rightful ruler. I do hope that is the case, although I'm not sure the writers have that kind of subtlety left in them at this point.

One small diversion back to the conversation at hand of whether or not Cersei is pregnant and if the timing is wrong:

Many women don’t begin showing their baby bump well into the 4th month of the pregnancy. My wife was almost 18 weeks with our first daughter, before the bump began being noticeable. So seemingly, from the time she announces she’s pregnant to the day she’s killed, if that time frame is within a few months (discounting the time in which it would take for her to know she was pregnant. I’m not sure they’d have a CVS Pharmacy to run to to get a pregnancy test), technically she could be pregnant and not show.

Striders_Heir wrote: Mon May 13, 2019 12:12 pm One small diversion back to the conversation at hand of whether or not Cersei is pregnant and if the timing is wrong:

Many women don’t begin showing their baby bump well into the 4th month of the pregnancy. My wife was almost 18 weeks with our first daughter, before the bump began being noticeable. So seemingly, from the time she announces she’s pregnant to the day she’s killed, if that time frame is within a few months (discounting the time in which it would take for her to know she was pregnant. I’m not sure they’d have a CVS Pharmacy to run to to get a pregnancy test), technically she could be pregnant and not show.

Very good points, SH, and it could be you're right.

The problem comes with the show playing so fast and loose with time and distance. What I do know is that Westeros is a fairly big continent, and that Winterfell is at the far northern end, and King's Landing, though not in the utter south, is not far from it. With the time and logistics that it takes to move entire armies overland or even by sea, the four months you suggest is very generous when one considers how much the pieces, including the slow-moving ones, have been around the board. It simply does not add up.

Valkrist wrote: Mon May 13, 2019 12:53 pm Very good points, SH, and it could be you're right.

The problem comes with the show playing so fast and loose with time and distance. What I do know is that Westeros is a fairly big continent, and that Winterfell is at the far northern end, and King's Landing, though not in the utter south, is not far from it. With the time and logistics that it takes to move entire armies overland or even by sea, the four months you suggest is very generous when one considers how much the pieces, including the slow-moving ones, have been around the board. It simply does not add up.

I agree. In the early episodes, King Robert’s traveling group takes about a month to get from Winterfell to King’s Landing. And that’s at a royal traveling pace. Riding between normal hours. Stopping at fancy inn’s along the way. So you figure that traveling with a need for speed, as it were, you could make the trip on horse in less than two weeks. By ship, they’d travel the coast, which would make their travel time about the same as horseback. On horse you couldn’t travel a straight line, “as the crow flies.” Either way, the show has had issues with timelines since season 7 and Gendry running through the north at a breakneck speed.

I would daresay 'army speed' is a lot slower than even 'royal speed'. An army isn't just the soldiers marching in neat formations down the road like they would have us believe because that's the only part of it that makes for glamourous television. The reality is that for every soldier, you have double the amount in spare weapons, armour, tents, food, supplies, etc. This takes a stupendous amount of horse, mules, and wagons, which has the effect of making those soldiers march at a slower pace that matches that of the slow-moving train. Then there's the elaborate setup of an army camp every night and the breakdown every morning. You post pickets, you dig trenches, you set up latrines, you pitch tents, you fence off areas for the animals... the list goes on, and it gets even worse when you are travelling through enemy controlled lands, because you have to send out scouting parties, have lookouts, etc, etc, etc. Moving an army of Unsullied and Dothraki, plus now the northerners takes a very, very long time. Even if they do the majority of the trek by ship, that only cuts down some of the time as they still have to get to and from the coast and it can take days to load an army that size with supplies and horses onboard.

Many of the fans out there like to dismiss these arguments as nonsense when watching a show that is fantasy because it has ice zombies and dragons. I can't tell you how absurd that argument is and how hard I want to shake dumb people like that. If they can't understand why all of the other rules of the world still apply *in spite* of the existence of dragons and ice zombies, then it's not my job to educate their vastly limited grasp on reality.

Sorry for the long dissertation on medieval modes of travel. I do a fair bit of tabletop gaming and D&D with large army movements so it irritates me when writers just assume they can get away with it. Not that we want to see it (boring), but acknowledge it at least.

Basically, what I hear Back saying is, Cersei should have had time to have about 2 kids since announcing that pregnancy

They should have never did 2 short seasons, especially this 6 episode final season. MAYBE the writing and story would have had time to develop... Orrr I'd be complaining for 4 extra episodes, haha

A GOT comment with a different slant.... I thought it was pretty funny.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radi ... d-khaleesi

Deimos wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 2:20 am A GOT comment with a different slant.... I thought it was pretty funny.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radi ... d-khaleesi

Well, those parents are silly because a) you picked the name before the conclusion of the series, and b) if you couldn't see where this was leading, you deserve to be disowned by your child.