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I accidentally watched the new episode from tomorrow night. My wife and I have been about a week behind in watching due to our newborn and me starting back up the new school year.

So my HBO Go account wasn't loading on either the PS4 or the FireStick. So I loaded Kodi and went to load Game of Thrones. I didn't pay attention to which episode, only playing the newest one. Bout twenty minutes in, I thought maybe I had fallen asleep during the last episode (episode 5). So after finishing the leaked episode (unknowing that I was watching it) I went back to look up the episodes and realized what I had done.

Nonetheless, those of you who are watching tomorrow night, just wait. It was pretty awesome!!!

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SH, I'm right there with you when it comes to being behind cause of the little one. Last night I spent a good portion of the night with my phone propped up in the crib while I entertained our little one on the changing table.

He likes dragons and wolves, but my wife insists he can't watch GoT...

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I saw the episode. Pretty spectacular, and also something I have read about before. Makes me more nervous for the finale. Once you guys have seen the final episode you'll all know what I'm hinting at - unless the leaks were wrong.

This season doesn't feel like GOT. I miss the political intrigue. GOT has foregone politics and humans for zombies and white walkers. At this point everything that came before it feels utterly pointless. Did we actually need to see most of what we've seen? Was Stannis relevant? Was Ned Stark relevant? Was anything relevant? Imagine GOT as a trilogy about the white walker threat.

I have to say my most hated character at this point is Arya. Her berating of Sansa really annoyed me in this episode, and her actions in this episode have shown how petty she really is. I don't want a Stark or a Targaryen on the throne come the end of the next series. It would seem so pathetically anti-climactic.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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I agree- although I did enjoy that last episode- this whole season feels way too rushed. I feel like we are completely missing out on all of the subtle plot lines and scheming... for more action and dramatic effect. I loved all of the scheming in the first few seasons- it's like the West Wing with dragons!

When I first heard that they were releasing the last 2 seasons with less episodes- I heard it was because they didn't want to overkill it. I agreed wholeheartedly! I didn't want to see GOT jump the shark. But considering what we have been getting so far with these last few episodes- I am disappointed. It's just all too rushed! The teleporting is really getting to me. The lack of further character development I think is really hurting the show. Like really- what is going on in Arya's mind?! They are not letting us explore the Arya/Sansa relationship enough to fully understand what is happening there.

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Finally someone is echoing what I've been saying all along - rushed, rushed, rushed; complexity and subtlety gone out the window; and everyone on the show, including the super-sonic ravens, just mouse-clicks on the map of Westeros and hits the 'Fast Travel' option.

All the awesomeness of the company/white walker/dragon battle was undermined by the absurd light-speed travel of Gendry to the Wall, the sending of the raven to Dragonstone, the council with Tyrion, and the dragon flight to the frozen island north of the Wall. Utter nonsense. Those men would have died over the long nights they would have realistically have had to spend waiting in that frozen hell. Yet it seems they were there what - less than one night and a day?!?

Also, very convenient how when Jon kills the white walker, there is exactly one wight left standing for them to capture. Seriously? You couldn't have two or three remain to make it more believable?

As for Arya, I spent the entire episode wanting to grab her by the shoulders and shaking her while yelling: "Seriously, are you this stupid, blind, and petty all of a sudden?" Yet another stupid contrivance on the part of the writers that completely undermines everything that was built up around this character. So glad we spent all that time watching her journey just to watch her become a dumb tool for Littlefinger. I really hope she's playing the player, but the writers have lost touch with what made this show so good, so I doubt it.

Lindir, you hit the nail on the head with your assessment of how all the work of previous seasons is being rendered completely moot by everything that is happening now. It all appears to have been some cruel Darwin-esque exercise in seeing how many characters could be eliminated before the dragons and walkers duked it out, all the while announcing very early on that Daenerys and Jon Snow will walk away with everything.
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At least we got the wight dragon finally, right? Hahaha! The first couple of episodes this season were just awesome, but the last few, while I think the story is good, overall... it is super rushed. Might as well be sending ravens by Snapchat.

As far as this council of Eldrond ala Game of Thrones happening next week. I just don't see the Lannisters just saying "okay lets go fight the army of the dead" without an ulterior motive of some sort. Yes it makes sense to team up against the white walkers, and then battle it out, but Cersei is just crazy enough to screw it all up.

As far as Arya goes, I kind of hope she is being played. A. because she is a kid. B. she didnt really finish her training with the faceless men and C. she's always been portrayed as some assassin prodigy.

She was toying with Brienne last week, really a lot of the men she has killed have been drunken fools. The waif put up a good fight but Arya's magic wolverine heeling powers didnt stop her from ending the Waif. Baelish has been around for a long long time, he's played the scheming, backstabbing political game for years. He is an intellectual challenge that Arya has never seen before.

Think about it. Before this reunion, Arya and Sansa didn't even get along. Arya alluded to their differences. The last time she saw Sansa, Sansa was head over heels smitten with Joffrey and the dream of being a Queen. Its not like they have been keeping up with each other's Facebook status updates.

Did everything that happened in the previous seasons matter? Yes and No. Remember while Renly and Stannis and Joffrey and Cersei were all battling it out for the throne, thats how the world was at that time. They did not know about this enemy of the north, we as viewers did, Jon did. The army of the dead and the white walkers were always the enemy, as far as I look at it. I've been wanting the white walkers to bust down that wall sense season 1 :) and now that they have a dragon that hopefully shoots some blue fire, they will melt that dang wall.

Another plot hole maybe... but the Night King seemed prepared for dragons, he had those ice spears at the ready. Jon and company survived because they didnt attack. I think the Night King knew of Dany's dragons and knew she would come for Jon...

I still have hope that everything will come together at the end and we will all be as satisfied as we can be when such an awesome show ends. ( i am hoping for some drama between Jon and Dany when Jon finds out who his family really is)
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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BC, I get what you are saying about how the previous seasons had to unfold the way they did regardless of what was going on beyond the Wall, and that makes total sense, but it doesn't shake off the feeling of futility, and maybe that's just the point. All these petty mortal affairs and who ends up with the throne doesn't matter one bit unless the threat of the Walkers is ended once and for all. It makes me feel that the first six seasons were a waste of time because the outcome was inevitable regardless of what anyone did. In a way, this show would have been far more interesting without the supernatural threat, which is almost an inconvenience at this point. GoT was at its best when dealing with personal conflict and cutthroat politics, and now that it has sunk into the realm of standard fantasy fare, the cracks are appearing very fast.

As for the Night King seemingly waiting for the dragons to show up, there is a theory about that which is fast gaining traction: the Night King is Bran Stark. I won't go into a lot of detail here, but you can look it up and judge the merits of the theory for yourself. I was skeptical at first, but the fact that the Night King waited for the dragons indicated he knew what was going to happen, and who else on this show has knowledge that transcends time? I'll leave it at that, but the clues are starting to fall into place and were first laid out in 'The Door' episode. He had the spears ready and was waiting Jon out on the island, because yes, he knew the dragons would come.
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I'm not sure I'm on board with Bran being the Night King just yet. But when the Night King touched Bran's arm during a vision, it could have created a psychic link between them, perhaps. Night King can see everything that Bran sees.

The other theory does make me curious as to how bran would become the Night King.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Game of Thrones story trajectory in seven words: Life's a b1tch, and then you die.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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Needless to say, huge spoilers.


Well... it happened. I was hoping for a while that it wasn't true, that the leaks were fake. They weren't and now he's gone. And so has all the subtlety from the show.

His death was not only terrible for the character but also it does not make the Stark's stronger. Bran was the only one who saw what Littlefinger had done. Why are people congratulating Arya and Sansa? If anything I think this all goes to show how stupid they both are, that the only way they'd see through it is if Bran were there to help. And why did no one openly question Bran's testimony? Why do people all of a sudden believe in magic when just a few seasons ago, Bran would have been laughed out of Winterfell for claiming he could see things. In the books it's heavily hinted that it was Joffrey who sent the assassin to kill Bran as Littlefinger had actually lost the dagger to him, not Tyrion like he stated. How would Littlefinger even know about Bran? Yeh he's connected, but it seems like quite a stretch to imagine that Littlefinger tried to kill Bran.

Littlefinger deserved to have a moment where we could actually see he who was, and what motivated him. We never got that and sadly the closest we ever got to that was tonight when he began to cry. Why waste such a great character like that? He has had no arc this season and has only been around so the producers could kill him off and give all the Arya fanboys and fan girls something to jack off over for the rest of time. If anything I loathe Arya more now, she's a terrible character who is given far too much credit and personally I'd enjoy seeing her killed before the end of the story.

I'm hoping Dany and Jon don't stay together either, they both need to die and someone unexpected take the throne or this has just descended into generic fantasy story territory.

The Night King is also an awful villain. He doesn't terrify me. We've been teased with this for so long but now that it's finally here it's so anti-climactic. Why won't he speak? What does he even want? Is he still continuing his crusade that the Children of the Forest created him for?

Again I'll reiterate a comment I made previously - everything that has come before this is filler. In your typical fantasy novel/movie seasons 1-6 would have been told in a flashback or exposition throughout the story. We didn't need to see any of it. It was utterly pointless and we got ourselves invested in it because the political scheming and character development was best back then.

Now it's incest, dragons and zombie hoards. This season as a whole has felt so removed from what GOT used to be that it no longer feels like the same show.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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I agree with everything you said about Littlefinger, he was my favorite character of the show. He was the epitome of the political scheming and to fall to 2 little girls and their 3 eyed raven brother. He didn't even get a chance to defend. He was accused and put to death, even Tyrion got a mockery of a trial for being accused of killing Joffrey. Arya has been portrayed as some sort of assassin/faceless man prodigy, it is rather annoying.
Not to mention, we never got to see his endgame, I mean, he was the most schemey of the scheming schemers!
Did he want to rule? Or did he just like to start stuff?

I did like the pacing of the episode for the most part. The first part with the council felt like old GoT. Slow and methodical. Also good to see some of the characters interacting with each other again. Tyrion/The Hound. The Hound/Brienne. Tyrion/Podrick. etc. I also like the little smirk The Hound gave when he heard about Arya.


The ending of this season is what I wanted last season, tearing down the wall!

I really hope the revelation that Jon is really named Aegon Targaryen will put a wedge in between him and Dany, but seeing as how he is portrayed as so honorable, he would probably step aside and let her rule.

Lets see if they stay consistent. Arya and Sansa took what Bran apparently told them at face value about Baelish, I wonder what they are going to believe when Bran reveals Jon's true parentage.

I wonder what is going to happen with the L:annisters. Jaime leaves Cersei to join Tyrion and Dany? Cersei doesnt take the chance to kill Jamie for betraying her (or Tyrion for that matter)?
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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I'm going to have to disagree with both of you on Baelish's exit from the show.

I've been a huge fan of the political intrigue and subtle complexities that have driven this show forward, you guys know that, but GoT has now arrived at a point where little to any of that matters anymore. For that reason, Littlefinger no longer had a place on the show. I don't think him dying in any way detracts from everything he did. He's been basically shown to be the hidden force behind most of the plot elements that began the show, mainly orchestrating the downfall of House Stark, and all the repercussions that came from that. However, the show has evolved well past the point where such things matter. The show is about dragons, white walkers, and basic survival now. It is a world that no longer holds a place for people like Littlefinger, and thus it was time for him to go. You can be as angry as you want about the manner in which he exited the show, but I very much think it was time for him to do so. The way I have to look at his contributions is that he was essential in maneuvering the final pieces onto the board for this final challenge they must face; he just won't be the one making the moves anymore.

While the whole thing with Arya and Sansa was annoying, it was only so because it was starting to feel very out of character and silly. I did remark before that the only way this whole plotline could be saved was if they were somehow collaborating to set up Littlefinger because that's the only thing that made sense. I also kept wondering why, if they knew of Bran's powers, they wouldn't just go to him and ask about their fears or suspicions. It turns out they did, and in the name of common sense, I'm very happy for that. I feel you are selling Sansa short here. You praise Baelish for all his growth and development, but you give no credit to everything that Sansa has been through, and how all those experiences and hard lessons can shape and change a person, giving them the hard edge and insights into the mind of an enemy that are needed to bring about his downfall. Do not forget that she learned from the best player himself: Baelish. Arya's progress is a little harder to define and sympathize with beyond the need for justice, but to just brand them as stupid little brats because they outsmarted your favourite character is grossly unfair and fails to consider that they have not been static the entire show. Every accusation that Sansa levelled at Littlefinger left him in an indefensible position, so what would you have had him say? "I destroyed your parents and your house because I love you."??? And you would have expected Sansa and Arya to somehow empathize with any of that? Especially after he had her married off to Ramsay Bolton to further his aims. His actions were monstrous, and there was nothing he could have said to save himself and he knew it. This is why there was no reasonable option to even let him speak. Also, they had Bran,

You ask why would everyone suddenly believe Bran. I wouldn't either when first faced with the declaration of his powers, but you know what? It would take but a few words out of his mouth to reveal your innermost private and dark secrets to make a believer out of me. How could anyone doubt him in the face of such knowledge? Even the most hardened skeptic would be forced to believe in Bran when confronted with such truths. For that reason alone, I find it very easy to see how others would be forced to accept his word as incontrovertible evidence. If Arya and Sansa had not availed themselves of that resource, they you would have been right in calling them stupid, but not because they did the right thing and did ask him. I think that makes them smart and resourceful, and they defended their house from an agent of chaos that continued to erode the Starks from within.

Where the rest of things are going, who knows, but I'll offer a few more comments.

Dany and Jon: the truth is coming for them, but we've seen how inter-familial relations are not as big a deal on this show as they are for us, and much is being made about Dany possibly not being barren after all. Jon is so honour-bound as a person that he may well break off his love with Dany once he finds out he's her nephew. However, you can bet that Dany is going to get pregnant before that happens and the final union of Ice and Fire will be incarnated in this child. That's the endgame for the show as to who will rule Westeros. Yeah, it's pure fantasy novel 'chosen one' shlock, but for better or for worse, that's where this is headed. Only bit I didn't like was how Sam and Bran arrived at that point in the conversation at basically the speed of light. It was "Hey Sam", "Hey Bran", "Oh, by the way, we have to tell Jon he's a Targaryen", "Yeah... nice to see you, by the way." Huh?!?!?

The Night King: Why does he have to speak? What would you have him say anyway that wouldn't sound cheesy or clichéd? Why must his motivations be voiced? He represents death and death does not have a voice. The Night King and the walkers are an inexorable force of nature and nothing more needs to be understood beyond that. They represent inevitability and an end to all things, the ultimate lesson that the Peytr Baelishs and Cersei Lannisters of the world need to learn in the harshest manner possible: that all your endless plots and scheming ultimately will mean nothing when death comes for you. The Night King just aims to make that transition a little speedier for the world. Do we need to know why? He was created by magic and who can truly understand that?

To speculate on the answer to BC's last question: we already saw that Cersei was incapable of killing Tyrion, so it came as no surprise that she was bluffing about killing Jaime. I don't believe she is pregnant at all and was using that as a weapon to manipulate her brother. Family is everything to her, despite her hatred for Tyrion and obvious contempt for Jaime, yet she cannot end them because then she will be truly alone. There is a greater destiny awaiting Jamie Lannister, and it won't be at the hands of the Mountain.

For all my problems with this last season I found this last episode 90% satisfying. Like BC said, I was just so happy to see them return to the little moments and character interactions that have made this show so special: Bron and Tyrion/Podric/Jaime, Tyrion and Cersei, the Hound and Brienne/Mountain, Theon and Jon. I especially enjoyed Theon finally growing a spine and beating that guy against all odds to go and save his sister. It was a moment that had nothing to do with dragons, walkers, and politics, and brought some humanity and sympathy back for a character that we have long despised and pitied. Whatever else happens, I hope there is some redemption for Theon.
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For me it was always about wanting to see something more in Littlefinger though. I knew he had to die, there was no way he could be redeemed at all, not after what he's done, but I wanted to see something more in him. Aidan Gillen delivered an amazing performance, delivering subtle hints at something more kinder beneath here and there throughout the story, but ultimately Littlefinger is terribly afraid of showing himself to anyone and is of course driven by his own heart break. I think he truly did love Sansa and Cat in his own way, Cat was more genuine though.

The closest we got to seeing that true nature of LF was when he was being put to death. That was no act, nothing could be gained from acting at that point. Littlefinger was afraid, and lonely. He knew in that moment no one would come to his aid. I just wish Sansa had been the one to do it, and not her overrated sister Arya. It would have been so much better if Sansa had figured it all out and killed him herself. I dont know. I have very mixed feelings about the entire thing now. I miss GOT back in the old days.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Lindir, I can definitely get onboard with everything you just said.

Littlefinger could either be described as incredibly complex or a one-dimensional, moustache-twirling villain. I choose the former because his machinations were so incredibly Machiavellian and far-reaching that one has to believe that the man was driven by a host of complicated impulses and reasons known only to himself. The problem, as you say, is that we never got a chance to dig deeper into that, and thus Littlefinger as presented onscreen will seem to many more like the latter. Despite knowing it was high time he was offed, and cheering when it happened, I felt a pang of empathy for him: a man undone by his own cleverness, seeing his plans come to naught, alone and desperate in his final moments, making a plea he knows will never be considered. I felt pity for him because in the end we are human beings and there is some compassion in us for other people, no matter how misguided. Baelish was someone we wanted to understand only so that we could at least see what drove him to become the despicable man he was; by contrast, a complete monster like Ramsay Bolton is someone one should feel no sympathy for because all of his actions were beyond redemption.

As for the manner of his death, Arya had to be the one to kill him. Yes, it was Sansa's right as the one most wronged by him, but that would have been out of character for her and more fitting for Arya, the cold-blooded one of the two, to perform the execution. We don't have to like it, but it makes complete sense. Also, it was Arya's family as well as Sansa's that Littlefinger destroyed. The death of Littlefinger in the end represents a final victory and redemption for Ned Stark. As stubborn and lacking in foresight as he was, he nevertheless instilled the right lessons and values in his two daughters, enabling them to one day have the toughness and intelligence to not only persevere through what was to come, but to undo the plans and life of the man that destroyed Ned and his wife. That was the perfect closing of the circle.

R.I.P. Littlefinger.
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I get the Stark children getting revenge on Petyr. He single handedly ruined their family and started the war of the five kings, but without Brans knowledge of all events, we will never know of Sansa actually would have ever outsmarted him on her own.

Everyone is all day Sansa when it was Bran. And I still believe Petyr of old would have figured something was up when Bran quoted his "chaos is a ladder" line.

Did Baelish get "too big for his britches?" Did he not think Sansa wasn't leaning from him at all?

And as conniving and creepy and backstabbing as Petyr we... Sansa and Jon would be dead without him.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Tough questions to which we will never know the answers. I think to some extent, Baelish was blinded by his own cleverness. Aside from maybe Varys, I don't think he ever thought that anyone could outplay him. Would Sansa ever have figured it out on her own? Possibly not, but let's not forget that she disliked and was suspicious of him ever since he sold her off to the Boltons. Even his timely arrival with the Knights of the Vale to save Winterfell was transparently self-serving to anyone who knew what he was capable of, and the showrunners made no secret of showing Sansa's deep mistrust and suspicion any time they crossed paths afterwards. She had to know he would eventually make his move, and with Bran and his powers around, why not use him? it would be the epitome of stupidity to not go to her own brother once she figured out what he could do.

As for Baelish not clueing into Bran's words, I think he was definitely taken aback, but he was also a practical and grounded man who likely did not put much, if any, stock in seers and visions. He probably dismissed the revelation as a moment of carelessness on his part where someone overheard what he had said and that information somehow made it to Bran's ears. It's not like he waited around for Bran to elaborate so he probably figured there was nothing more to it.

One thing I realized from that last episode is that Tyrion, Daenerys, and Jon are firmly to blame for the Night King destroying the wall and invading Westeros. Were it not for their ill-conceived plan to capture the wight, Dany would not have had to fly north to rescue the Seven Samurai, and lost one of her dragons in the process, therefore giving the Night King the perfect tool to bring down the Wall. It does ask the question: what exactly was the Night King's plan before he got the dragon? Many speculated the Wall would no longer be an obstacle due to Bran's connection with the Night King, and others thought he was simply going to freeze the ocean around Eastwatch and walk his army around the Wall. Maybe he was going to do one of those two things but the dragon just made it a lot simpler for him?

Either way, those three should be doing a big forehead slap right about now for their collective stupidity in conveniently giving the Night King the perfect weapon and tool. Again, this is a sign of some very sloppy writing where situations are being created simply for the sake of feeding the next ones. I do hope the writers have the good sense to acknowledge in-show that those characters' actions were directly responsible for hastening the very catastrophe they are struggling to stop. It was a massive error in judgment, and the characters that made it should not be excused and the whole thing conveniently overlooked. Otherwise, it's just another in a series of poorly engineered coincidences and plot holes big enough to fly a dragon through.
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Excellent point. They certainly have no problem just marching into water as we saw when the lake ice cracked. Also, that lake probably wasn't that deep, therefore the Night King could have used the undead giants and their extra height, or the wights could just climb back up the chains once attached.
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So, soon we will be halfway through the final season of GoT. In a way, I'll feel a sense of relief, because the effort it takes to avoid spoilers is wearing me down! At least after tomorrow, I won't have to worry about Avengers: Endgame spoilers anymore.

I thought the first two eps of this season of GoT were interesting, as long-parted characters are getting a chance to get back together and either make peace with each other, or take their final digs at each other, before most of them probably die in the Battle of Winterfell! (not a spoiler; I have no inside knowledge; just guessing.)

I do have a theory about how the series will end and who will sit on the Iron Throne, but since our old way of doing spoilers by posting in Black Speech is hard to decipher on phones, I guess I'll keep it to myself.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I rewatched season 7 in the run-up to season 8 and the Littlefinger plot still irks me so much. It hasn’t gotten any better with time. At this point, I’m over his death and have accepted it but the plot line is still stupidly bad. I know they were rushing to get rid of him before a very cold Darth Maul turns up to kick some ass, but it could have been done so much better.

But putting that aside, I’ve enjoyed the first two episodes so far. The first episode was pretty slow but the second episode had some great character moments. Jaime is becoming a contender for one of my favourite characters.

I feel I know how the series will end and I feel like it’s the only way to bring this to a conclusion that feels like something has been accomplished. It’s not really spoilers but I’m throwing this speculation out there that there isn’t gonna be an Iron Throne at the end of the series. Based on nothing but a gut feeling I have.

It’s going to be interesting to see what happens in episode 3. I’m eager to find out if they stop the Night King there or if he pushes through and continues his march toward Kings Landing.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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I love that Little Finger made such an impression on you that the whole thing still bothers you after this long. :)

A nice testament to the skill of the writers and Aidan Gillen in portraying a not-so-nice character that can still evoke such loyalty. Over the past month I re-watched the entire show from the beginning (so much better this way) and have to confess that for the second time, despite how despicable he was, I again felt pity and empathy for Little Finger when he was unceremoniously disposed of. Could that have been handled better? Certainly. Was it time for him to get his just deserts? Absolutely.

I too think the Iron Throne will be destroyed. Maybe once it is, this silly 'game' will finally end. Whatever else happens along the way, I just want Cersei to pay for her crimes. If there is one character that has earned a very painful and long-deserved death, it is her. I don't care about all the children and family excuses, she is simply vile and the one character that has shown herself so far beyond redemption that it's not even worth arguing whether it's possible. It isn't.
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Littlefinger, and many villainous characters who share similar stories to him, have always appealed to me. Without being too sob story-ish about it, being someone who has felt like a bit of an outsider, I tend to gravitate more toward these characters. I think I have mentioned this before actually in this thread. Though I am no villain. But seeing him not get what he wanted in the end was a bit heartbreaking. Even though it’s not really a relationship I’d agree with, I think he genuinely loved Sansa.

Yeh he’s done some bad stuff but pretty much everyone in this show has. He was a grasper, an opportunist. When he got his throat coat, I can’t deny I felt the knife against my own. I think that may be more due to the sound effects they used though :P throat slashing always has me cringing.

Aside from the whole ‘relatable’ aspects of the character, I just found him quite compelling from a narrative point of view. He didn’t have the power and presence of Tywin Lannister for example, but he was a strong villain in his own right.

With him gone, I fear I may be stuck watching Jon mope around for all eternity. It’s nothing against Kit Harington, he seems like a very down to earth guy. But Jon is so terribly boring. I cannot get behind him. When Jaime was being interrogated in the opening of episode 2 he’s so outdone by everyone else around him that I didn’t even realise he was there. I’d personally be happy if he and Arya die. They’re both dull characters. Dany at least has complexity to her and I think Emilia Clarke plays her very well. So if she sits on the Iron Throne I’d accept it. But I want to be surprised.

Regardless, I am looking forward to seeing the battle of Winterfell.

With Cersei, I agree her death is coming, but I don’t want it as much as you do Val haha

I do like Cersei and I pity her but she is incredibly lost and she’s not coming back from it. If there was any good in her, it’s long gone.
Last edited by Lindir on Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Ah, Littlefinger.... Just having rewatched the entire series, I still feel his undoing was a bit rushed. They were in such a hurry to make you believe that Sansa and Arya were headed to a final fateful tete a tete that I'm not sure they sufficiently laid the breadcrumbs pointing to Littlefinger. Be that as it may, he was a pretty loathesome character and came to a very just end. Generally I can relate to the outsider character but in Littlefinger's case, he was just too deceitful. Betraying Ned Stark was sufficient reason to dislike him for the rest of the show, but then he also handed Sansa off to the Boltons. I don't think he loved Sansa at all. He may have loved her mother (may), and some of that may have transferred to Sansa, but in general I think he was just using her as a pawn. Really the only good thing he did for her was to get her out of Kings Landing, or otherwise she surely would've been dead.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I always saw the Bolton’s as being a genuine mistake on Littlefingers part. When he reunited with Sansa during one of the early episodes of season 6, his personality is different. I believed that he genuinely was sorry. Ramsay wasn’t well known. Roose was known, and was pretty infamous after the Red Wedding, but Littlefinger bet on the fact that Roose would have had the last Stark under his thumb. Also, if Roose had been there, I doubt he would have allowed Ramsay to treat her the way he did.

When he tells her he loves her before he dies, I also believe that he meant that. Nothing could be gained from lying in that moment. He knew he was going to die so why bother lying about your feelings for someone.

It was definitely not a healthy love he had for her by any means, but it was still love.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Lindir wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:10 am When he tells her he loves her before he dies, I also believe that he meant that. Nothing could be gained from lying in that moment. He knew he was going to die so why bother lying about your feelings for someone.
Nothing to be gained? What about convincing her not to execute him? Admittedly, it's what we call a Hail Mary, but when you've got nothing else, you go with it.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Well my particular theory for the ending of the show was just proved quite wrong by tonight's episode, or at least wrong in detail. And I'm very surprised, not so much that my theory was wrong, but rather the way tonight's episode was wrapped up. I'll wait a bit till I know people have seen it, so as not spoil it, and then we can talk about it all.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Well...

All I can say is “meh” and I can’t believe that ‘that’ character got ‘that moment!’


There’s something bugging me though, which makes me think there’s something wrong and there’s something we have missed. I’ll discuss it later after we know Val has seen it.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Seen it.

Some possible spoilers ahead:

Extremely disappointed overall. I guess this is the problem with building something up so much in your mind.

Need some time to process what I just saw, going to watch it again tomorrow. I now fear for how this show will end because it very much leaves the door open now for the one way it absolutely should not end, and I think you know of what I speak.

Lindir, I fully agree. Not sure that character earned that moment. As far as twists, if that was the intention, this was one of the worst the show has offered up thus far. It was too simple, too fast, and deeply unsatisfying.

As for that touted body count that would make us all wail with grief, we essentially saw three very minor characters and three more secondary cast members die. Not a single principal player bit the dust.

As for the threat that is left, I don't see how the show can top itself now with a mundane battle after what we just saw at Winterfell. It's like seeing the Battle of the Pelennor before Helm's Deep.

Meh is right.
This Space for Rent

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Spoiler discussion! Hopefully if any of you get email notifications you can see this first and avoid reading the rest of the message!!!

****************** SPOILERS!!!!! *******************
*************************************************





Yes it was a major letdown. I had battle fatigue within the first 30 minutes or so. I didn’t care. In fact I was actually checking my phone - which I never do when watching TV - because it was just dead whaling and bones clattering and scenes so dark you could barely see anything that was going on.

The compression on the broadcast on Sky here in the UK was causing massive banding issues so for the majority of the scenes I could see colour banding more than anything else.

Arya in no way had earned that. It would have been obvious for Jon Snow to kill the Night King but he would have at least earned it. He’s spent his entire story heading toward this moment.

At this point, Arya has robbed Sansa and Jon of their kills. She’s such a one dimensional character though and I feel like she’s done absolutely nothing to deserve these moments, and now I hate her even more.

As harsh as it sounds, I’d love the next twist to be that Cersei kills her. If she gets Cersei too the show will be completely ruined in my eyes. Jaime has to kill Cersei.

The thing I mentioned in my previous post was to do with the Night King. It’s nothing concrete, but he was depicted with a different sword in the Entertainment Weekly GOT issue and also photos of props they released showed his original sword. For those of you who can’t remember, his sword was a big curved sword that he hung from his back.

In this episode, he’s shown with a shorter single handed sword. At the end of Episode 2 when we see the white walkers on their horses you can see the Night King with that curved sword.

Also, I believe the EW photos were shot in Dubrovnik. Why fly the actor, prop and makeup out there for a cover shoot? The only possible counter to that I can think of was he was depicted there because maybe they built a Kings Landing set in Belfast? I was always under the impression that all those exterior scenes were filmed in Dubrovnik though. Someone with more knowledge of the sets might be able to help out.

Like I said, it’s nothing concrete, and we’ve all seen how props can change massively from marketing material to the final product. Continuity always gets screwed by props. Also, maybe, I’m just in so much disbelief that after 9 years this is how the white walker story concludes and it wasn’t satisfying at all, and I want there to be another twist. We never saw the White Walkers fight. They just stood there or walked dramatically into shots. This episode ruined them completely for me.

Melisandre was another dreadful ending. There was so much disappointment for me in this episode.

What purpose does Bran serve to the story now?!?! He’s just gonna be sat there the whole time. I thought he was meant to be there to counter the Night King or something?Did they ever actually say why the Night King was going after Bran? Maybe I missed something in earlier seasons. Ugh. :cursing_r

Another thought - did one of the dragons die?!? I saw him crash and then Jon fell from his back but we never saw him again after that. It was kinda hard to tell amongst all the black and snow covering the screen.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Justice for Littlefinger!!!! :protest: :cursing_r



Edited to add on this new piece:

I watched it again. Some things I enjoyed more. The majority of it got worse though. I’m really disappointed: I can’t believe that it came to this. It’s not even as though I had any sort of massive expectations or that I had been spending days coming up with theories about how things were going to play out.

I feel like this was just a pointless plot line. Why did it need to be in there in the first place? See, last season and even before then, I was questioning why are we even dealing with the political games if the Night King and the White Walkers are the end game. Then they flipped that and now the Night King was utterly meaningless... like if you cut out the white walkers completely from the storyline I bet it would still work. What was the point? Tbh I’m glad it’s gone back to the political scheming but sheesh, why put us through that at all though?

My eyes have rolled right out of my head at this stage. I just don’t quite see why Jon had to be brought back, I don’t see why Littlefinger had to be killed there and then, I don’t see why they spent 7 seasons making the white walkers out to be an unstoppable force and billing them as the end of humanity when they were stopped after trying to sack one castle and their king was slain by a little girl...

I’m going to try and stop ranting about this, I think it’s pointless to get too disheartened by it. The show can still pick itself up, but this is easily the worst episode in its history and just bad for the storyline in general. Here’s hoping it gets better.

:huh:
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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I haven’t posted much lately, but I do want to say something in defense of Arya. She has spent her story arc attempting to avenge those that she loves and those who she has seen be wronged. When she travels to Bravvos, her desire is to become a faceless girl. Someone who can sneak through the shadows to ultimately fulfill her prayer (list in the show). Whether you view her killing of Littlefinger as just or not, I do agree that they seemed to just want to cut out his character. But, within the realm of her getting that moment, Melisandre reminds her of her training and that she would end many lives (emphasis on Blue eyes). She has trained to be the invisible assassin, and in my opinion, deserved to be the one who ended the Night King.

Obviously I’m just as annoyed that they built up this threat for seven years, only for it to be ended so quickly. But I needed to step in and defend Arya, only because for me, she earned that honor through my perception of her story arc.

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Don't worry, we're all gonna have different opinions on this story. I respect your opinion, but I still disagree with you on Arya. The prophecy Melisandre gave her though... the blue eyes I thought were Littlefinger's. Of course it does work with the Night King too, and that's obviously what it was meant to be, but even now, thinking back to what she has done throughout this entire story, I honestly don't think she's earned it. Arya always seemed to be driven by such spiteful emotions. Her story never seemed to go anywhere. She always seemed to take a step forward and then take two steps backward in terms of her story but also her character. I personally can't see anything likeable about her. I feel like she's very flat as a character, which is maybe why I don't like her. Just wan't to clarify, this is nothing against Maisie Williams at all. I just don't like Arya.

I'm very curious as to how the books are going to wrap up the story of the Night King. I know from what I've heard and read that Melisandre and Arya never meet in the books, and Beric is dead long before the long night. So if the Night King dies in the books, will it be Arya? I also know that the White Walkers, the Others, are very different in the books. I was reminded before that it was suggested within the books that the Night King was actually a famous Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who fell in love with a female white walker. I think from their descriptions they're a bit more closer to elves than the more monstrous looking beings we have in the show. I wonder if the producers decided to just go their own way with this storyline, or if GRRM did reveal to them the true story.

I think a lot of us suspected that Jon was resurrected because he had to stop the Night King. I guess he did, indirectly. But it feels like we've been cheated from a more satisfying conclusion to the Night King's story. I know a lot of people are theorising that the dagger that Arya has was special somehow, but I think it was more to do with the fact that it was Valyrian steel. Jon could have killed the Night King with Longclaw.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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I agree that this wasn't quite what I had in mind for the Battle of Winterfell. I have very much enjoyed Arya's story arch, but was surprised that she dealt the killing blow, but upon thinking about it more it should have been a Stark to do it. Who was left of the Stark's that could have done it? Jon is a Targaryen, Bran wasn't going to, so it pretty much left Arya.

As for what happens now, I have noidea. I just don't want Cersei to win.
Last edited by N2darkness on Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Where to start... man...

I guess the first thing of two things half the internet is criticizing this episode for: the lighting, or lack thereof.

Look, I totally get what the director was going for. If I were the Night King, these are the precise conditions I would have chosen to conduct an assault against a bunch of humans that desperately need light to see in order to be effective. Attacking Winterfell at night not only robs them of that advantage, it also has the added benefit of reminding us of how much horrifying everything is in the dark, as if fighting a horde of undead isn't bad enough. Then we have the snow and windstorm that obscures everything on top of that. Add smoke from the fires and you've got the perfect conditions for zero visibility. Yes, kudos for the realism... except we are the viewers watching this show at home, not on the sidelines of the actual battlefield. It would have been nice to be able to tell what's going on. I get battle is chaos, but not only was everything extremely dark, the editing cuts were so fast and abrupt that there was no way to tell who was who or what was happening. Aside from a couple of moments of loose organization, such as the retreat to the courtyard and the wall defense, I had no idea what was going on. I can't establish an emotional connection to what I'm not seeing. Sigh. Major ball drop here.

Atmosphere? Yes. Making it impossible to see? Going a tad too far.

Then comes the elephant in the room: Arya slays the Night King.

How to even argue this in a day and age where everything seems to revolve around women's empowerment and subverting cinematic expectations? It's a losing battle from the go because you either get labelled a misogynist immediately; get accused of not having an imagination for risk-taking; or both. Listen, I have zero problems with the woman issue. I can't stress that enough, so much so that despite for my past stated dislike for Daenerys as a character, I had her pegged as one of three people that had a narrative chance to kill the Night King. The other two were Jon and Beric. In the end, it actually didn't much matter, so long as there had been a satisfying buildup and payoff over the course of seven seasons to set this up. There wasn't, not by a long shot.

Way too much is being made of a throwaway line that Melisandre made four seasons ago, the one about Arya shutting all those different coloured eyes. The writers would have us believe this was their intention all along, but I call BS. For one, I'm sure there's millions of blue-eyed people in Westeros that are not White Walkers. Two, Melisandre is the last person one should be going to in order to get an accurate read on the future - her record with Stannis first, and then Jon second, left much to be desired. It's a pretty hard to swallow retcon that she got all that wrong along the way but could already see way back then that Arya's destiny was to kill the Night King? C'mon. I definitely had her pegged to kill Cersei, Jaime being the other option, but that would make 100 times more sense and be more believable that what we got last night. If she also does go on to kill Cersei. they may as well give her the Iron Throne and just call it the Arya Show at this point. I honestly wonder if this was part of George R. R. Martin's notes for the end of the books and what he intended all along (he did provide those to the showrunners) or if they just went off-script completely and felt this was way cooler. I know much of seasons 6 and 7 was beyond the books, but I feel this is something Martin may have worked out long ago. Was it Arya all along? I'm extremely dubious of that.

This poor story choice also renders the character of Jon Snow utterly pointless. All that he suffered at the hands of the Night's Watch, the Wildlings, betraying his one true love, the assault on the Wall, the massacre of Hardhome, pursuing the undead army, betrayed by his brothers, killed and brought back to life, resigning his title as King of the North, risking all to capture a wight... all in vain for not even getting to strike a tangible blow against his nemesis, the Night King. Even if he they had a physical battle and he was about to lose and someone else struck the final blow, at least I could get some satisfaction that he came close to achieving what I'm sure he always felt he was meant to do. Instead, it is all rendered meaningless by choosing Arya, a character with zero connection to this storyline other than her home being Winterfell. There is no closure for Jon, no sense of purpose, no answer to the mystery of why he came back to life. Sure they beat us over the head with how Beric saved Arya's life so she could go on to perform the deed, but what then was the Lord of Light's interest in Arya? Why was she so special? Was she not a worshipper of the God of Death? Are these two deities now one in the same? What? Confusing, zero setup, and out of leftfield. None of it made sense other than the writers wanting to shock us with a twist. Well, I love twists, but they have to make sense in retrospect. This one doesn't, no matter how hard I try to reason it.

Ugh... I really just can't get over how angry and disappointed I am at this decision. Ironically enough, in a now-released interview with Maisie Williams, she predicted this very same reaction would come to pass, and Kit Harington expressed shock when he learned he would not be the one killing the Night King. Again, yeah... pretty much what we all expected, but sometimes it's ok to go with expectations and still have a few curveballs in there, just not one this huge, and which essentially invalidates a character's entire journey in order to justify and elevate another one's who had already had her fair share of moments and victories: becoming a Faceless Man (Woman?), avenging the Red Wedding, avenging her father (killing LittleFinger.) It's more than a little overkill to have her be the universe-ending badass that also sticks it to the ultimate baddie of the entire show. Leave a little something for others.

Honestly, I could care less what happens now as it no longer even feels important. The confrontation with Cersei feels like a letdown no matter what because it seems very set up now to only go one way, mainly due to the fact that not a single major character met their end at Winterfell. We've known for some time that the Night King would likely meet his end in the third episode, and that's fine, but the stakes for defeating Cersei afterward would be that much greater and the odds that much tougher because I think we fully expected to not have any one or more of Jon, Daenerys, Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, or Jaime walk away from this battle. Yet they all did, and none the worse for wear at that. After this big climax, we're now going for a boring, conventional battle of "My army is bigger than your army!" crap that feels like a massive and deflating coupout. Seriously, who cares about the Golden Company as a threat when you've just defeated hundreds of thousands of relentless, undying zombies?!? How scared am I supposed to be about the menace of a wine-drinking, sneering queen, when a supernatural horror bent on the destruction of the entire world has just been undone by a single stab of a dagger?

Even the whole "which, or will a Targaryen takes the throne" question has lost its shine because it's become very obvious that one will, if not both, bringing about the one ending that is so cliché as to be the one that is too horribly bland and bad to consider... but seems to be exactly what we'll get. With Jon basically being shown the door in terms of what he means to this story, it would make less than zero sense for him to press his claim over Daenerys now. Not that I think he was ever going to do that as it's not in his nature, but without at least vanquishing the Night King, it would definitely feel unearned now, even if he was the one responsible for uniting the North and Daenerys to fight the Walkers. None of that matters now because Glory-Hog Arya took the spotlight away.

Other annoyances: again, for a show that's been built on gritty realism and not being afraid to pull punches, it seems everyone part of the main cast was playing in a videogame with the invulnerability cheat-code turned on. It's like the writers chickened out in the end and were afraid to kill any fan favourites at this point, or was this yet another one of those infamous 'subversions'? Horse crap, I say. It felt totally unrealistic, though they at least threw us a bone with Jorah and Theon, two characters I liked very much and whose arcs were basically complete. Of the others, there was no real reason for Sansa, Davos, Varys, Sam, Gilley, Brienne, Greyworm, Tormund, or Podrick to survive, other than sentimentality. I seriously doubt that having survived what they just did, that any other danger is going to feel real enough to threaten from this point on. I would make exceptions only for Jaime and Tyrion because I truly don't know how the encounter with Bron will play out, though suspect it won't go how Cersei hopes.

Finally, there's Bran.

Besides Jon, his is the other major character arc disappointment of this entire show. All of the mysticism and mystery surrounding the Three-Eyed Raven and the Night King comes down to a long stare and a look that basically said "So it ends."

Literally.

That's it.

For all that Bran had to go through, he basically ends up being useless in the end, with two lines of dialogue explaining that he is simply the repository of human history, and the Night King wants him dead so... everyone just forgets? And when you're a mindless wight already. as all the world would be under the Night King, that matters because...? I was so convinced that there was so much more here, some kind of earth-shattering revelation about these two and their connection, even the long-rumoured Bran IS the Night King theory... anything... just anything would have been better than "He's a cartoon bad guy and I'm the bait. Go get him."

Seriously dropped ball here, basically laughing at us that this whole plotline was nothing more than an extraneous exercise that turned into an inconvenience for all the people playing the game of thrones. Basically: "Hold my beer... I got me some White Walkers to kill, I'll come right back to plotting over who sits on that stupid chair in a minute." Essentially, unless there is some cataclysmic event at the end of the show - oh wait! they already took care of it - what can possibly change? What lessons were learned? Well, if Cersei wins, and she won't, only that the more things change, the more they stay the same. And even if she doesn't... well, same old shit.

My final vote for the Iron Throne winner: Euron Greyjoy.

Why? He's the only thing on this show that still brings a smile to my face, and that's not saying much at this point.
This Space for Rent

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N2darkness wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:00 am it should have been a Stark to do it. Who was left of the Stark's that could have done it? Jon is a Targaryen, Bran wasn't going to, so it pretty much left Arya.
But Jon IS a Stark... through his mother.

Honestly, if Arya had distracted the Night King at the last moment and then Bran is the one that was hiding the dagger all along and surprise-stabs the Night King, that would have been infinitely more satisfying than what we saw. For himself and all the past Three-Eyed Ravens as well as the Children of the Forest, Bran had earned the right to kill the Night King a hundred times over Arya, someone who has been self-centered and arrogant the entire run of the show.
This Space for Rent

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My theory on how the show would end would be that the Dead would make it to Kings Landing and Cersei would blow the whole place up with wildfire. No one would sit on the Iron Throne because there would BE no Iron Throne. Obviously, that's not going to come to pass, at least not in that particular way, since the Night King has already been killed. I supposed she could still do it to wipe out whatever army Dany musters. And as to how scary the Golden Company may seem after defeating the Night King, I'd say "pretty damned," if my army had been reduced to about 20 soldiers.

Beyond that, where do I go? I'm surprised at the amount of vitriol being voiced here against this episode. Everyone I talked to in the real world liked it. Is this a fandom vs. man in the street perspective thing? I don't know. In any event, I will ill-advisedly swim upstream against the consensus opinion. I don't know that I'll do this in an orderly fashion, as there are simply far too many things to respond to, and I don't want to be at this for two hours.

So, in whatever order, and to whatever effect....

I was surprised, first of all, that the White Walker story line ended here. It had been built up as the big bad of the series, and I just assumed it would not be resolved until the very end. And beyond that, I was surprised that Arya was the one to deal the death blow. However, in retrospect, it was telegraphed several times in the episode (if not also in Melisandre and Arya's meeting several seasons ago), and I was simply too dense to pick up on it. I'm not very good at things like that. So I didn't see it coming, and to me it definitely felt like Neville Longbottom coming out of nowhere to behead Nagini. However, I don't buy that Arya was somehow unworthy. We spent how many seasons watching her to train, both physically and mentally, to be an assassin? And certainly her achievement was much more earned that the killing of the Witch-king by Merry. Tolkien makes it clear in the book that it was the spells upon the Barrow Blade that broke the power holding the Witch-king's body together and subject to his will. Merry, who though had been through some harrowing encounters, had never had any training or notable prior accomplishments. He was simply in the right place at the right time with the right weapon. Yet I've never heard Merry described as unworthy. Getting back to Arya, she was fiercely defensive of her family, even to the point of the veiled threat to Jon upon their reunion. Lastly, I doubt Jon thought, "Damn, I wanted to kill the Night King. I am like so pissed at Arya!" Yes, it would definitely have been more obvious for him to have dealt the death blow, but everything he did set the stage for the demise of the Night King. Had he not massed an army and all the pieces played out as they did, Arya would not have been in position to deliver the death blow. There would have been a different outcome.

Regarding the darkness, I found it bothersome but it did not keep from from having a pretty good notion of what was going on. Someone posted a theory on Gizmodo that it wasn't even an intentional choice (at least, not to the extent we saw) but rather a miscalculation and a bitrate issue. He thinks the producers processed the scene as though it would be seen in a pitch-black theater as opposed to the typical semi-brightly lit living room on an uncalibrated TV. He also believed that so many people were trying to stream it that HBO's servers simply couldn't supply the data fast enough. When he restreamed the show later, he claimed it looked gorgeous. Now, I watched on cable, not streaming, and it was still pretty dark, though my room wasn't pitch black. But in any event, I have some hope that the BluRay will look better. But in any event, i t was also plagued by color banding, something I rarely see on my TV.

It's true, no main characters and few secondary characters died. Was that realistic? No. But we're not watching reality, we're watching fantasy. Again, consider Tolkien. Of the 9 members of the Fellowship, only one dies and stays dead. Of the other good guys that are at least of secondary character status, the only one I can think of who dies, right off the top of my head, is Theoden. So, that's not realistic either. But if I want realism, I will watch the news (and be even more depressed).

At no point did I ever feel like Arya being awarded the death blow was a nod to women's empowerment. To me, she's just one of the good guys, and the facts that she's female and that she killed the Night King never occupied my mind at the same time. Nor do I think she's one-dimensional, or at least not inexplicably so. She saw her father murdered when she was very young. She was always a tom-boy and warrior-wannabe, so how would she respond to that? By becoming a very dark person, bent on revenge. Yet, she still has traces of a kinder, more human and humane Arya. She didn't want to kill the kindly actress who no doubt reminded her of her mother. And she wanted to experience sex before she died. So there are facets of her personality that don't often come to the fore, because she's consumed with her quest.

Bran? I don't know. Ever since he came into full possession of his powers, he's really no longer human, so it's hard to understand his motivations or lack thereof. A lot of people online were making fun of his passivity, but what could he do? He's a guy in a wheelchair, so it's not like he's going into battle. Sure, he can warg into animals and control them, but we've already seen that the Night King can disrupt that control. I'll admit, I felt the plot point of why the Night King wants to destroy him, so there there would be no living memory left of history, was a bit of a stretch, but again, this is fantasy. I think maybe we become inured to that since GOT is otherwise so gritty. As to more mystical motivations, like he IS the Night King, I'm not a fan of those theories. We've already seen him accidentally change the past (or so it appeared) by interacting with it in his visions, and I wouldn't want the show to go any further down the science fiction path by setting up some sort of paradox where Bran becomes the Night King, or his own grandfather, or anything like that. Finally, Bran could have some role yet to play, so we'll have to wait and see. But even if he doesn't, to me he's more than fulfilled his role by showing us Jon's true parentage, and by warning everyone that the Night King had turned Viscerion and felled the Wall. So I'm granting a pass on Bran.

I also wonder if the disappointment of folks here is due somewhat to the show's own success. It built up a stunning legacy over seven seasons, to the extent we've all been trained to expect anything and everything, even the seemingly impossible. Yet definitely, these last two seasons have had the feeling of closing the loops and tying off loose ends. They've been out of published story for some time now, and are now only basing the scripts on Martin's outline. Since they are not working from nearly the amount of detail and story, there's less to pick from to flesh out the show. It's coming to a close, and there's no more new characters or new stories to introduce. And so, the pace of the plot accelerates. I realized that last season but made my peace with it. Yet, it does feel rushed now, and folks may feel like characters they like get short shrift. Personally, I was more than ready for Littlefinger to die, but even were I a fan of his, I'd have to admit, he's served his purpose, it's time to go. And he got outsmarted by two people whom he clearly thought he was in control of, so, so much the better. I'll certainly miss Ser Jorah more! Part of me hoped he'd end up with Dany, though I knew that would never happen. But he was a beloved character.

Oh, shark jumping. To me, the ONLY time GOT has ever jumped the shark was when they went north of the Wall to capture a wight to bring back to Cersei. Why would they risk this, knowing they had little chance of success and great chance of dying? And yet, upon reflection, it was something they had to do. The Cerseis of the world are not going to believe the Undead exist, unless you bring them one. Imagine there's a very large, undocumented ape in the forests of our Pacific Northwest. People won't finally believe it till there's a body. You get the idea. So the wight mission.... Foolhardy? Yes. Ultimately necessary? Definitely. Even if Cersei still wasn't swayed, Dany was, and that made a difference.

Well, I've spent far more time on this post than I hoped to. My point, I suppose, is that I'm sorry so many of you don't enjoy show now, but I'll look forward to it for these final three episodes. If my heart can take it! Last night, from about 45 minutes after it started until the end, I was nervously looking at the clock every few minutes, hoping it was almost over, because it was nerve-wracking to me. Of course, I was already strung out from just having seen Avengers: Endgame about an hour before. But certainly to me, if an episode can affect me like that, the show still has it going on.

By the way, in no way do I mean any of this to be dismissive or condescending of anyone's feelings or opinions. I fully understand disappointment with a beloved franchise. Star Wars has been disappointing me for decades now! Yet I still keep hoping they'll put that rabbit out of the hat again, though sadly that seems very unlikely now.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Oh boy, Endgame and The Long Night in the same day?!? You are a brave man. xP

You know something? Reading your measured and logical response has helped dissipate a lot of the anger and disappointment I was feeling over all this. It really seems silly to feel this way over a TV show but human beings are odd creatures that way, and when you have invested yourself emotionally into something for such a long period of time, you need to feel some validation that that time wasn't wasted. It's very dangerous, I know, because the fall can be very hard, as I'm experiencing.

At any rate, yes... I do think I am being much too hard on Arya. You are right that they did set her up for this moment, even if it was done in a very roundabout fashion, and they opted to not go with the obvious choice of Jon Snow. Still, I can't help but feel that subverting expectations can be a good thing, but only if it doesn't leave some serious damage in its wake. In the case of The Last Jedi, Luke Skywalker was the casualty, and in last night's episode of GoT, it was Jon Snow. Yes, of course none of this would have happened without his efforts, but it does little to dispel the feeling that he did not matter in the end. Now that I think of it, the way he screams in impotence and frustration at Viseryon, who is blocking the way to his destiny, is a very good metaphor for how the fans felt in that moment when Arya took the glory.

Couple of other comments: yes, the Golden Company is the bigger army by far at this point, but I was speaking more from a practical and existential viewpoint. They are, after all, just men, and armies don't always win battles... just ask the Night King. It just feels very mundane to have them as the obstacle after facing the Walkers. Speaking of which, not a single one of them even took part in the battle. All that buildup and menace, and they didn't even have their King's back in the last moment. Sorry, but it was lame. They could/should have had a scene of at least a couple of them fighting the main characters like Jaime or Jorah, and killing someone, and being destroyed in the process. I think the writers failed utterly there in giving the viewers just a little of what was wanted. The subversion went a little too far.

In any case, I wanted to thank for your calm response and helping me see the other side. I've not gotten the 'person on the street' perspective yet other than my wife's, and she's fully in the camp of this having been a good episode.

I now face the remainder of the show with a sense of renewed hope. Thank you.

(I think that sounds and awful lot like a line from Wrath of Khan...?)
This Space for Rent

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Wow, I never knew I had such powers! :o

It is very easy to get totally wrapped up in a show or movie, and when that first big disappointment comes along, to feel personally betrayed, like the show is thumbing its nose at you. Even if it's not that personal, encountering a few disappointments causes one to start nitpicking everything else about the show. Been there, done that, many times. But anymore, I supposed I've gained an ability to see the glass as partly full instead of mostly empty. There were a couple of things I could've nitpicked about Endgame but I thought, these were the rules they established for the story, right within the story, and this element first within them, so I guess I'm going with it. And the movie was done with such heart that it would've been about impossible to dislike it. By the way, I never planned to see Endgame and Game of Thrones on the same day; it just worked out that way. And it was emotionally taxing. I was out of sorts all day, more so than the usual Monday. But I digress.

I'm not sure why the White Walkers didn't engage any of the humans. Perhaps with so many wight to do the hard work, it wasn't felt necessary. And they probably never dreamed the Night King would be vulnerable, hence no need to actively protect him. From an outside viewpoint, maybe the writers felt that since they were apparently relatively few white walkers, their visual impact would be nil if they were scattered about the battle, fighting, vs. being grouped together as an honor guard for the NK.

But thinking about them does suggest an inconsistency to me, or at least an example of changed premise. When Jon killed a walker at Hard Home, I don't recall any of the wights under its command dying. Perhaps they were too scattered to be within the field of view. More likely, the writers simply hadn't decided yet that killing one would have that effect.

Yes, there is definitely the possibility that the Golden Company will seem mundane after the walkers. But at the same time, remember how treacherous Cersei and Euron are, and dread what they may have up their sleeves.

I suppose I have forgotten to name my choice to sit upon the Iron Throne. It is...Ser Pounce! LOL, I don't know if Ser Pounce is even still with us. I don't think he's been seen since Tommen and Margaery hooked up, and that's been how long ago. Anyway, he has undoubtedly already sat on the Iron Throne. You know cats; they sit wherever they like. And if sunlight were falling on that chair, you know he'd be there.

More seriously, of the three main contenders, I'm not sure. Cersei is vile, though I have to give her some props for drawing no lines when it comes to the family. I don't think she will end up the victor though, because with a spinoff series in the works, there's too much at stake to piss off the fans by having her win. My early fave, Dany, has been darkened by growing a sense of entitlement. It's nowhere near yet to the degree that Viscerys had it, so I don't loathe her. But it was very telling that her reaction to Jon's big revelation wasn't, "Holy crap, I've been sleeping with my nephew!" Rather, it was, "Holy crap, you want my throne!" I think that issue will have to get worked out next episode. I can't imagine Jon actually wants the throne, whatever his heritage, so unless he becomes possessed by some Ned Starkian sense of duty, he will promise her his support, possibly even through marriage if they can get past the ick factor. As for Jon himself being the true ruler, well, he's a very good guy and his heart is definitely in the right place, but he's just...stupid. Well that's too harsh, but he definitely lets his heart and sense of honor call the shots instead of any cunning he may possess.

So, I don't know. I would say, Jon and Dany married and ruling jointly but I know that a) I'd get jeered, b) the show would never do anything so obvious, and c) the ick factor. So, I guess my vote goes to Dany, as long as she has Tyrion at her side to blunt her bad impulses.

Of course, the above supposes that it will be one of those three. It is certainly possible that it will be someone else, and if that's the case, hands down my vote goes to Tyrion. Beyond the fact that he is probably the optimum combination of deserving and capable, remember also the fan theory that he is Dany's half brother and the reason Tywin disliked him was that he was his wife's bastard by Aerys Targaryeon. So he could be a Targaryeon and therefore entitled that way. However, I doubt they would introduce such a huge plot point so late in the show. That would definitely feel artificial at this point. Besides, the producers already tossed the fan theorists one bone with Jon's true parentage (assuming it wasn't GRRM's intent all along). As an aside, I guess the advantage of taking forever to write a book series in the age of the internet is that the author can be aware of and go with fan theories.

So, let's speculate about who'll end up with whom. Will Tyrion and Sansa actually be together for real? (Was their marriage ever actually annulled?) Will Brienne end up with Jaime? Will she end up with Podrick? Will she end up with Tormund? Will Arya end up with Gendry? Or will she end up with Yara Greyjoy? Will Sam and Gilly make it official?

OK enough speculation. I have to totter off to bed.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I was getting confused.....

Was that Boromir defending Daenerys.....

I see the director has said he spent hours watching TTT Helm’s Deep battle to work out how to film the Winterfell battle. It showed.

But I liked the ep. Bit dark or I need a new tv

Go Arya. She has trained all her life for this. The others will get some glory in the final battle I’m sure.

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At the end, Tyrion on the throne....if it doesn't happen, well, he still should have been on it, as the most capable, most sane chacacter, with just the right amount of cynicism required of any ruler.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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Deimos wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:32 pm At the end, Tyrion on the throne....if it doesn't happen, well, he still should have been on it, as the most capable, most sane chacacter, with just the right amount of cynicism required of any ruler.
I agree with this. If there is going to be a new king or queen then it should be Tyrion, it feels earned and it feels like the best choice out of the remaining characters. If it boils down to a chance between Arya and Cersei, I’d choose Cersei.

I’m really curious to see how the story progresses between Dany and Jon. Do any of you guys think there may be some conflict between them?

I’m quite interested in the way the writers talk about the Night King and the white walkers. They always refer to them as the physical embodiment of death and what have you. But we can’t defeat death. So is the Night King still alive?

I read the first book when I was getting ready to watch the series for the first time. At the time, I put the books down because I saw how faithful the first season had been and felt comfortable that I’d be able to understand the full story through watching the TV show.

The Others were meant to be beautiful I believe. Which is so at odds with what we have in the show Sorry I know this is more of me rambling, but I’m really curious as to how much different the story is going to be in the books. I’ve been reading a lot about this episode and I know opinions are certainly changing and more and more people are realising they’re disappointed with what happened. A lot of people have mentioned that in the book there is no Night King who leads the army of the dead. There is a Night King who is mentioned in legends to have fallen in love with a female Other as mentioned in my previous post.

I don’t know. It’s not getting any better to me. I understand what you’re saying Olorin, and you communicated your thoughts very clearly but I still don’t feel satisfied. As much as I find Jon a bore, I was looking forward to seeing him face off against his nemesis properly.

Stuffing people in the crypts was a bad idea. It would have been safer sending them away to other towns and cities as the Night King was defeated at Winterfell anyway.

I’m going to own up to the fact that a few months back I found some spoilers for this season on reddit and people were taking it very seriously (unless I missed some joke) and at the time I wasn’t too happy with it. I’m not going to reveal what I read here in case some of it comes to pass but it is very different to what’s happened so far and the Night King’s story wasn’t ended in episode 3. Interestingly, it did mention that the cats paw blade that Arya uses was important to defeating him. But that’s all I’ll say. I hope some of that comes to pass because it did answer a number of dangling questions. But based on how the first three episodes have turned out, I don’t think there’s much hope.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Wow... I missed some conversation... I think I will add a few thoughts to this already beaten horse.

1. From the first scene of the first episode, the white walkers were introduced and become a MAJOR plot point and reference over the last 7 seasons. They were built up to be the big bad. An ancient enemy that would require all the living to face off, Cersei not joining the fight was worrisome because that is a lot of additional resources, etc etc etc (I mean Bran didnt tattle tale on Jaime because they needed all the help they could get)... as of Sunday, what did the white walkers become? A plot version of a prepositional phrase. Remove it, and nothing changes. Unless something is added in the next 3 episodes, the white walkers became the Mandarin in Iron Man 3.
2. Tying into #1, the motivation for coming after Bran/3 eyed Raven was to erase memories of everything??? Gag me, I guess after killing Bran they were gonna go burn all books too? Killing everyone and creating wights out of everyone would serve the same purpose.
3. Bran/3 eyed raved... this WHOLE multi season journey for Bran to become Captain Creepy Pants came down to A. Confirming Jon/Targaryen (backing up Sam basically) and B. ending Baelish's storyline.
4. So many plot holes with Bran, could he see the future as some people claim or could he only see the past. Camp Future says he could and thats why he gave Arya the dagger, which he could have kept it himself and stabby stabbied the Night King himself, which would have been cool. Camp cant see the future says no, or he wouldnt have made the comment about no one had used Dragon Fire on the Night King before, he would have seen it didnt work if he saw the future. Also if he could see future events, he could have told Theon "hey man, Arya is about to show up, dont run at the night king like an idiot"
5. No major deaths. That is what GoT is known for. Comparing it to the fellowship isn't quite the same. JRRT didnt establish killing off major characters like GRRM did. GRRM believed that major characters needed to be vulnerable to death to really build up that sense of worry and anxiety. If there's no threat of death, then I am not worried for my favorite characters.
6. Still salty there wasn't a wight Hodor or white walker Summer the direwolf
7. Screw realism in cinematography. Realism went out the window with undead wights and ice zombies and dragons, let me SEE. Helm's deep was night time and rainy and I could see everything!
8. Arya, Arya...Arya... Arya. First off Melisandre's predictions were about as accurate as fortune cookie lottery numbers lets not even go with this eye color stuff, Arya has killed every eye color known to man, she's a serial killer at best. Melisandre was like a palm reader or fortune teller, make predictions vague enough, they will always come true somehow. B. She's trained her whole life, I guess she had a couple sword lessons as a kid, overheard some stuff from Tywin, was kidnapped/protected/stockholm syndromed with the Hound, whined some, went to Braavos, studied with the faceless men, which I am sure takes a lifetime of dedication and training, she seemed to spend about a month or so there, and now she's the most skilled Assassin to ever walk the earth. I mean, she should be in the next Assassin's creed with Altair and Ezio. C. I mean, if you read what the producers said, they had Arya kill the night king because it was unexpected, nothing to do with her character arc, basically the hipster trendy thing. Props to her, but she snuck around Winterfell, made it around Viserion who was blocking Jon's path, was silent enough to sneak past a few white walkers and come up on the night king, all while the night king heard Jon from about 200 yards away. Yes, Arya has always annoyed me a bit, but, so did Jon and his whisper voice, but I digress, what was the point of bringing Jon back? To turn on Dany? To kill Cersei? To be a cool thing to do?

I have no idea where these last 3 episodes are going, but if it only took an episode to beat the Night King and his undead army that was replenishing itself with all the new dead people... Cersei and Euron shouldnt be that hard to deal with. Oh yea 9. Can we PLEASE get ride of the over used trope of "kill the leader and the horde of enemies dies as well"
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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