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The books are what I would consider the "first draft" take on the story. The show absolutely does it better, removing characters that are pointless and storylines that don't go anywhere. This isn't to say the show is flawless, but it improves on the books in almost every way. There's a lot of padding in the books that is just meaningless. No reason for it, no depth behind it. Just fluff.

There are some things the books do better of course. Some of the long-running stories that are a lot of inner monologue and memory-flashbacks don't really work in the show, but they do in the books. A lot of the characters on the show are even better in the books. Ned Stark, Tyrion, Jaime, Jon Snow, etc. have a lot of scenes and dialogue that didn't make it to the show that is well worth the read. The first book is solid. The second book is good. The third book is phenomenal. The fourth and fifth books...well, they were able to cram them both into a single season with plenty of room to spare.

I rarely say that the movie/show is better than the book, but in this case it's very true.

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Yep, still watching avidly.

Warning, spoilers ahead!

Like the rest of you, I am also quite satisfied with how this season is unfolding, except of course the Daenarys arc, and this last episode in particular. Don't get me wrong, those dudes totally deserved to die for their attitude and general outlook on the place of women in their backwards society, but my dislike for the character is just too intense for me not to roll my eyes when she stepped out of that fire and all the Dothraki dropped to their knees like she's some kind of goddess. If she somehow ends up on the Iron Throne by the end of the show, I think I will have considered 7+ years of my life wasted while watching this show. I think the only character I dislike more intensely than her is Ramsay Bolton, and I should make clear, for entirely different reasons. One is a monstrous sociopath in human form, the other is the epitome of arrogance and entitlement, uncoupled from any form of wisdom or restraint required to rule. Yes, I know they've kindly provided her with Tyrion and Varys to help her along with this painfully obvious deficiency, but I lament that what are possibly the two best characters on the show are now saddled with propping up this power-mad brat. Oh, and if have to hear her recite her eternally long list of 'titles' one more time, I shall have to tear my own eyeballs out.

Aside from that, I'm loving it! Now that the show-runners have declared their intent to wrap the series up in only 13 more hours after this season ends, it is gratifying to see some of the characters finally coming together, and some of the plotlines beginning to bear fruit, though I still can't for the life of me figure out where Arya will fit into all this, except to perhaps pop up here and there and finish off a couple of people on her list. Frankly, at this point, unless they have something else in mind for her, the whole storyline in Braavos is beginning to drag on almost as much as boring-Mereen. Although, as Olorin points out, this feeling is compounded by these short little visits we are afforded to each locale and story, making things seems like they are moving much more slowly than they are in reality.
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So do you think Daenerys really comes off more arrogantly entitled in the series than Aragorn did in the book of LOTR? Sure, Aragorn had decades of growing into his entitlement and roll-call of titles, but that was in the past, from the readers' perspective. In any event, Daenerys' fixation on her goal, and her lengthy list of nicknames, always makes me think of Aragorn.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Aragorn had an important quality that Daenerys lacks: humility.

He was not reticent and full of self-doubt as portrayed in the movies, but his entitlement was a result of quiet confidence and commanding respect by virtue of his deeds, honour, and valour. Daenerys simply expects the world to bow and scrape before her because of her name and because she has three dragons to roast anyone that disagrees with her. Aragorn was a man that others would follow unto their end, whereas Daenerys simply expects this behaviour without question. While Aragorn was someone who could be proud of his heritage, Daenerys remains willfully blind to the atrocities committed by the Targaryen name and is treading dangerously down the same path as a result. While her actions against the slavers are commendable, she fails to provide viable alternatives and knows only to wield her power like a clumsy bludgeon. Justice without temperance and wisdom is merely tyranny in another form.

In my eyes, the two characters are worlds apart.
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Spoiler-y-ish prediction or thoughts on Arya... I also agree it would be a waste for her to be in Braavos this whole time and nothing come of it. I honestly, doesn't think she wants to be one of the faceless, she wants the training in order to become someone capable of seeking revenge. Although I am pretty sure Jaqen H'ghar would be able to see through that, I am beginning to wonder with Jon coming back from the dead, if Arya won't be assigned to "re-kill" Jon, but will decide to join him or something. I dont see the Starks living happily ever after, although I won't lie, the scene with Jon and Sansa last week, had some tears forming and goosebumps happening. I think it would be cool for Arya to rejoin Jon/Sansa while they save Rickon from Ramsay and hopefully feed Ramsay to Ghost, preferably toes first, and reclaim Winterfell, while living happily ever after for about 15 minutes :)

I am curious to see Baelish's endgame, character-wise and with the actor portraying him, he is my favorite character, so so so shady, I love it! Although if he screws over the Starks one more time I might kill him myself!

Also ready to see the Lannister/Tyrell uneasy anti-High Sparrow alliance turn the High Sparrow into a shish-kebob, courtesy of the Mountain.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Littlefinger has and always will be the only character I'm truly invested in.

I have an awful feeling he might die this season though. I hope not. Like Aidan Gillen, I too hope his true heart is revealed before the end and I cling to the notion that deep down theres far more to Littlefinger than just power mad.

Danaerys' storyline and Arya's are currently the least interesting to me. I've always found Arya's storylines a drag but it feels worse now. I considered Jon Snow pretty boring until this season so maybe the others can change.

I was thinking to myself, the White Walker threat is the main arc of the series. They're the enemy lying in wait. However, how does everything that's happened so far tie in with that? I have a feeling we'll get to the end and think a lot of it was pretty pointless and unnecessary. I hope that's not true, because I've enjoyed the character progression over the years.

Littlefinger was the instigator in the war of the five kings. He set everything spiralling out of control, which I imagine would play quite nicely into the White Walker's plans. However, I highly doubt Littlefinger is in cahoots with them. I'm looking forward to the mystery unraveling as we continue through the series.

Oh, I know some of you are praying that Jon or Sansa will kill Ramsay but I feel it would be better if Littlefinger were the one to end him. Here's hoping anyways!

I hate the High Sparrow. Here's hoping he meets a sticky end too!
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Jon, Sansa, Petyr, little kid down the street, festering wound... really don't care how he goes as long as Ramsay goes. I'd also love to see some redemption for Petyr. Maybe we will get some white walker answers (or maybe more questions) this week since Bran confronts them somehow during a vision session
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Olorin wrote:Count me as not in the Littlefinger fan club. His betrayal got Ned Stark executed.
I'll second that.

I used to find a bit of charm in Littlefinger, but his actions are just as despicable as Ramsay's; the only difference is the methods employed. He may come off 'cleaner' and more sane than Ramsay, but what he does essentially accomplishes the same: good people are used, betrayed, executed, raped, murdered, etc, and he just happens to be smart enough to never get his own hands bloodied in the process. His lust for power and the lengths he goes to in order to achieve it leave him in no higher of a moral ground than Ramsay or Joffrey.

I hope he gets his comeuppance at Sansa's hands, for not only did he giftwrap and place her in Ramsay's hands, she might yet come to find out the true extent of his perfidy if/when she discovers his prominent involvement in her father's death.

Good riddance, Lord Baelish.
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When it comes to Littlefinger, I really wonder if he has an end game. Initially he was closely tied to the Tully family, now he's seen a majority of them wiped out. I initially thought he was aiming to get Catelyn, but seems less like a real schemer and more like the Joker. Just causing mayhem everywhere because why not?

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At the risk of belaboring the comparison, I return again to Daenerys and Aragorn. Remember, at the time we "know" Aragorn, he's about 90 years and has had about 70+ years more seasoning than Dany. Her only tutor on the topic of why a Targaryen should be king (or queen) was her truly despicable brother, who certainly got a fitting comeuppance. Since then, she's gotten counsel from Ser Jorah and Ser Barristan, which sometimes she accepts and sometimes she disregards. I think by the time she comes to the throne, she will have become a more humble person (though her knack and getting herself out of sticky situations, with our without the assistance of dragons, may delay that maturation). In any event, I think she and (her nephew?) Jon Snow will be co-rulers of Westeros. That's what I hope, anyway!
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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That's the fairytale ending everyone is hoping for, and given how the show has thrown us curveballs at every turn, quite likely the one we won't get. It's simply too clichéd and ideal, therefore it won't happen. Daenerys will make it to the end because everyone involved with the show and the books seems to be enamoured with her, and she's got "unkillable" written all over her forehead. I don't believe however, that she will ever sit on that throne she covets so much. It's too easy, and if the writers have an ounce of creativity left in them for the final stretch, they won't take the easy, predictable way out.

One thing we will definitely see, however: the dragons will be end of the white walker threat. That one you can see from miles away.
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One thing GRRM and Game of Thrones have definitely tried (and occasionally succeeded) to do is subvert expectations. This isn't to say they do this every time (Yeah, Jon Snow's dead, we get it, you can stop trying to convince us...), but they certainly try to do it. Killing of Ned, for example. Not many books nor TV shows kill off the main character at the end of the season.

Perhaps the most common attempt to trip people's expectations up comes from the characters themselves. The author and the show wants us to hate characters, then cheer for them, then hate them again. Tyrion is a Lannister, who we're logically supposed to hate, but rarely do. Jaime is a Lannister who we absolutely started off hating, but then started rooting for, then probably slipped back to hating for a while. Folks hate the High Sparrow, but he's doling out the vengeance against Lannister and Tyrell that we've been craving since Ned was killed and Rob Stark met his end.

Dany has been a character that we, presumably, have never rooted against. She's never gone up against an enemy that we've really been expected to side with. Her brother, the Dothraki, the slavers. All pretty bad people with bad intentions. I expect that to change soon.

All of my chips are on Dany becoming the villain before the end. She'll return to Westeros and tear the land a new one while Jon Snow will likely be front-and-center in its defense. I don't see them joining forces, I see them destroying the world while trying to save it.

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Olorin wrote:Interesting theories. I (and I think most fans) see Dany and Jon getting together because they're almost certainly closely related, and incest is the Targaryen say.
You, and all those other fans, are basing that wish on a lineage that's established in the books, but has never been touched on or hinted at in the series. This isn't to say it's not going to, but the show has diverged from the books in many fundamental ways, and the showrunners are not beholden to the plot line that makes Jon Snow related to Dany. If they feel it tells a better story to leave that thread by the wayside, they will. To pin all one's hopes on that revelation being the thing that brings them together for the 'and they lived happily ever after' ending could be leading to some serious disappointment.
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Valkrist wrote:
Olorin wrote:Interesting theories. I (and I think most fans) see Dany and Jon getting together because they're almost certainly closely related, and incest is the Targaryen say.
You, and all those other fans, are basing that wish on a lineage that's established in the books, but has never been touched on or hinted at in the series. This isn't to say it's not going to, but the show has diverged from the books in many fundamental ways, and the showrunners are not beholden to the plot line that makes Jon Snow related to Dany. If they feel it tells a better story to leave that thread by the wayside, they will. To pin all one's hopes on that revelation being the thing that brings them together for the 'and they lived happily ever after' ending could be leading to some serious disappointment.
It was mentioned throughout a couple of scenes in season 1. Viserys admiring Danny's body, and Cersei later states that the Targaryen's wed brother to sister to keep their bloodlines pure. I dont want Jon and Danny together. I don't think they're a great mix anyway. I'd like to see Danny die to be honest.

The Jon snow being a Targaryen plot hasn't been fully confirmed yet, but when we return to the tower of joy hopefully we'll have an answer one way or the other. There's been speculation that Tyrion's scene with the two dragons hinted at a possible third Targaryen. Three for the three dragons. That will be interesting if true.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Lindir wrote:It was mentioned throughout a couple of scenes in season 1. Viserys admiring Danny's body, and Cersei later states that the Targaryen's wed brother to sister to keep their bloodlines pure.
That's not what I was talking about. I was referring to Jon Snow actually being a Targaryen. That's a plotline that has no toehold on the show as of yet, and therefore it does not need to be followed up on or ever see the light of day if they wish to leave it alone.
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I was not basing anything on the books...I haven't read them.

Also, the show could be laying the groundwork for Jon-as-Targaryen right now. In the recent tower flashback, the sounds coming from the tower sounded like a woman in childbirth.

I don't necessarily want Jon and Dany together romantically (incest...ick). I think they could come together as co-regents, possibly with Tyrion as a third co-regent, since he may well be a Targaryen too.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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The show is absolutely laying the ground-work for Jon as a Targaryen. As Val says, they've thus far not done the work to get that storyline, and they're paying for it now. The only way to do it now is by flashbacks. A lot of the evidence in the books is through inner monologue rather than any events. As that doesn't translate well in film, they've instead just avoided it. Now we get a hasty flashback every few episodes...For me, these are a very weak part of this season. They feel forced and pandering. They'll do it for the twist of it all, but at this stage the show is not invested in it.

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Yes, the flashback to Ned and the Tower definitely seems to be indicating something is up. The young Ned looks to be about the right age when Jon Snow would have been born. However, as GW pointed out, if that is where they are going, it seems like it is being kinda shoehorned at the last moment, and I suspect they might be playing us and turning people's suspicions on their heads... or they could be making us think that and then go with the obvious anyway for the so-called 'twist within a twist.'

Whatever happens, I think putting a Targaryen (of any gender) back on the throne after this tremendously long and complicated story would be the epitome of pointless. It would essentially render all of the Baratheon/Stark/Lannister/Greyjoy/Tyrel/Martel/etc machinations/war/blood/murder/betrayals into a whole lot of nothing because it would just be restoring the status quo to what it was before the series started. There's nothing I despise more than when you are invested in a grand story that just loops back to the beginning and restores what was.

Down with Daenerys! :protest: :protest: :protest:
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Spoilers for people that havent watch... I am assuming this is a "okay for spoilers" thread.


Interesting theories... I have heard the stuff about Tyrion being a Targaryen, but personally, I think its a cop out.. the ol "your family hates and rejects you, but you end up not being their family anyway" storyline. What if Bran is such a powerful warg, he can warg all 3 dragons at once.

And one more defense of Petyr... I believe he had a hand in Joffrey's fantastic death and got Sansa out of King's Landing. Maybe he didnt really realize how evil Ramsay was/is? I just don't see Petyr wanting to bring intentional harm to Sansa.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Petyr will do what serves him best, and no one else. His motivation for having Joffrey murdered had zero to do with caring about Sansa and everything to do with advancing his plots. Joffrey was an uncontrollable hindrance that needed to be removed, and he wasted no time in using Sansa to secure his hold on the Vale and then shuffling her off to a life of bondage under the Boltons. Make no mistake, the man has no scruples. Even his supposed affection for Sansa came across as creepy (he loved the mother, now he fancies the daughter? yuck!) and insincere in the end. He earns points for some of the things he's done, but I think it is the ultimate folly to think that he's doing any of it out of the kindness of his own heart.

As for Tyrion being a Targaryen as well, the least said about that, the better. Please, just no.
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Looking at the main cast, there are few that are good people... the vast majority are power hungry and self serving, or murderous, or just God-awful (Ramsay and Joffrey), its just how far down the scale are you. Then again, I think that was common in middle ages here in our world. Screw over before getting screwed over.


When talking about the High Sparrow, I wish Tommen would take after his brother a little.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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One thing that irritates me to no end when folks try to defend ASOIAF or GOT is that it's true to real life. People die randomly, "All Men Must Die", blah, blah, blah. As Val put it, having it circle back and restore everything that was would be incredibly irritating. Because say what you will about Dany, she believes she has the right to rule, so she can ignore advice or fact. Take Tyrion's recent example (spoiler warning, for folks who haven't kept up with the current episode)

Dany bans slavery. Tyrion gives the masters a time to adjust to no slavery. Is slavery a horrific practice? Absolutely. But cold turkey for any culture change results in backlash and collapse. It's also, historically, not done. Slavery, along with plenty of other atrocities, are gradually removed.

So to have Dany take the throne again? I won't say that's not the direction they're going, but it would irritate me. Circular stories are pointless and while they may well be true to life, I don't read stories to see the world as it is. I read them as escapism. And when there are dragons and zombies, I expect escapism.

As for Baelish, it's a bit murkier. The books and the show deviate greatly. In the books, Baelish did not send Sansa to Winterfell. It was (yet another) nameless character that the show got rid of who went to Ramsay. The show sent Sansa because it makes sense and had a greater impact. In the books, Sansa's been with Robin the whole time. I'm not sure how the books will tackle these plot points that are occurring in the show when they haven't even remotely set things up to be that way. So as far as show Baelish sending Sansa to Winterfell...I'm calling that a Mulligan for him. I won't count it against him. Yet. I will be very interested to see his next move, though, now that he's rallying the Vale.

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So much to respond to...where to start?

I don't know that much about the backstory of the Targaryen clan other than what's been said in the show. Sure, the Mad King was mad, and we definitely would not want someone like him back on the throne. But just because he was mad does not mean Dany will be mad. Children don't always follow in their parents' footsteps, even royal ones. Henry VIII was married six times, but Elizabeth I didn't marry at all. I'm sure most of Westeros probably wouldn't want another Targaryen on the throne, partly because of the Mad King and partly because they were usurpers who came from Essos. But were the Targaryens before him that bad?

Anyway, Westeros' supply of king-worthy (or queen-worthy) personnel seems pretty short since Ned Stark lost his head. Of the main characters still around, Cersei is awful, Jamie is at best an anti-hero, and Littlefinger is the worst type of opportunist. We won't even talk about Ramsey....

Jon Snow has a good heart, as Ser Alliser said, but he often seems very close to the "cute but stupid" category. Tyrion could be a good king, but is he too damaged by the circumstances of his extraordinarily screwed up life? It's not as if his life wasn't bad enough, and then he had to murder his one true love and his father, within moments of each other.

@BC, about our own Middle Ages being screw over before you get screwed over, that differs from modern times how? ;)
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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So...halfway through the season.

WIthout spoiling (too much, anyway) for anyone who's come in without seeing the most recent episode(s), I have to say that while this season has/had potential, it's kind of floundering. Last night's episode suffered the same problem as the premiere where it decided to give us 5 minutes of 10 different storylines each, and none of them were overly satisfying. As they say, "Winter is Taking Forever".

Did we get some revelations? Sure. But they were hardly earth-shattering. Did we lose some people? Yes. But I don't quite know why. TBH, I'm really struggling to care about Bran's story at all. I love mysteries in film/television as much as anyone, but this is kind of getting random/ridiculous. Especially given that the "shocking" events of last night all hinged on some arbitrary rule that has never been discussed nor does it make any sense. "Because magic."

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Olorin wrote:So much to respond to...where to start?

@BC, about our own Middle Ages being screw over before you get screwed over, that differs from modern times how? ;)
True... but I think it modern times, there is more subtlety and less stabby stabby murder in politics ;)
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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GuardianWolf wrote:So...halfway through the season.

WIthout spoiling (too much, anyway) for anyone who's come in without seeing the most recent episode(s), I have to say that while this season has/had potential, it's kind of floundering. Last night's episode suffered the same problem as the premiere where it decided to give us 5 minutes of 10 different storylines each, and none of them were overly satisfying. As they say, "Winter is Taking Forever".

Did we get some revelations? Sure. But they were hardly earth-shattering. Did we lose some people? Yes. But I don't quite know why. TBH, I'm really struggling to care about Bran's story at all. I love mysteries in film/television as much as anyone, but this is kind of getting random/ridiculous. Especially given that the "shocking" events of last night all hinged on some arbitrary rule that has never been discussed nor does it make any sense. "Because magic."
That has been the main problem with GoT from the get go, soooo many characters, soooo many storylines and only 10 hours a season to get it done. I hear the books are even worse in the respect because there are so many characters that arent even in the show.

For pacing, I think possibly the Iron Islands could have waited for next week. The way GoT usually does things, after a huge revelation like last night, we won't even see those characters/storyline next week (most likely) I am still interested in Bran... I have my own ideas about him for the end... and I kind of want to see how the white walkers fit in to the over arching storyline... hopefully we will have a eventful next 5 episodes.

I did the math and looked on my calendar, I will be flying to Italy the day of the season finale... although Italy will be quite awesome, the idea of having to watch GoT finale somewhere at night in the hotel room after everyone else has seen it is a bit more than I can handle :)
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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BladeCollector wrote:
Olorin wrote:@BC, about our own Middle Ages being screw over before you get screwed over, that differs from modern times how? ;)
True... but I think it modern times, there is more subtlety and less stabby stabby murder in politics ;)
Subtlety in the modern age is outright subterfuge. My favorite part of Tim Burton's "Mars Attacks" is when the Martians are running around broadcasting "Don't run from us, we are you friends"...while blasting people with rayguns! That's modern politics.
GuardianWolf wrote: I have to say that while this season has/had potential, it's kind of floundering.
I would not yet go so far as to say it's floundering. However, I have felt a little disappointment. Part of that is I've been subconsciously looking for a decrease in quality, knowing the writers are past the books now. And part of it is too many storylines, too little time.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Olorin wrote: I would not yet go so far as to say it's floundering. However, I have felt a little disappointment. Part of that is I've been subconsciously looking for a decrease in quality, knowing the writers are past the books now. And part of it is too many storylines, too little time.
I'd much rather they spend an entire episode with 1-3 storylines. That's what they've done in the past. Not really sure why they keep resorting to this method. It's almost like they're saying "Do you think they forgot that Arya's in Bravvos?" "I bet they miss Bran..."

I'm still watching, because I like some of the storylines, but overall, the show's lost some of my rooting for/mourning over.

I feel more for the direwolves we've lost this season than the people.

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I wish that HBO would use the entire hour every week like. Some weeks they have a good 5+minutes left.

I get they showed a bit of everyone during week 1, kinda catch everyone up... Maybe since it was the halfway point they did the same thing? Can't remember if that's a pattern. I do plan in rewatching the entire series this summer.. Some events are getting hazy and faded in memory... Plus I've finished my "for fun" MBA, so I got some free time to kill :)
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Olorin wrote:But as BC has lamented, they failed to fill the hour again....
Yes, I've noticed that a lot this season. Total ripoff. Last season the shows were a consistent 60 minutes, with a couple even going over. This season every single one has clocked in at 45 minutes or less. When you subtract the HBO promo filler right at the start, the previous episodes primer, and the opening credits, you lose 5 minutes right off. Fine, it's expected. However, the end credits begin to roll with a full ten minutes to go. I mean, c'mon... are there commercials being aired somewhere and we're being given the net time result of them not being shown? I remember hearing when Star Trek was on TV, that the average one hour episode was only 42 minutes of actual content and the rest was commercial filler. HBO is cable though, not network, and it costs considerably more. Really getting cheesed off at GoT for doing this so much now.

That gripe, by the way, only goes to show how much I love this show in that it bothers me to no end that we are not getting a full hour each time. Think of it this way: by the time this season is over, there is enough time not used to fill up over one and a half extra episodes. :(
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Olorin wrote:Out of curiosity, what did people like so much about this ep? It was. It was very soap opera to me.
Those were my thoughts.

I feel like overall I'm not enjoying this season as much. I can't shake the feeling that so much of the story is filler. Like the whole house of black and white storyline seems to be going no where. Jon has been just as boring since he was resurrected. Maybe I miss Littlefinger too much.

I hate the way they handle Dany. She just gives these big speeches and then nothing. she was at her best in season 2. I loved the Quarth storyline. Ugh... I hope it improves.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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For me, GoT has always been about the character interaction. Not about the random murders/betrayals/battles, etc.

Spoilers, obviously:

-Cersei/Tyrell matriarch scene was really well done. These two mama bears circling each other and admitting defeat, but still ecstatic at each other's defeat.

-Davos/House Mormont scene was very well done. But as Lindir said, Jon has been downright boring this season. He's done basically nothing of worth and he's very timid. He's lost the confidence he had in past seasons, and while I get why, it's gotten ridiculous. He doesn't seem to believe in the cause he's fighting for, so he's weak when trying to inspire others. He relies on Davos/Tormund to do it for him. I'm really hoping this changes soon, and I expect it'll be a costly character shift. I'm always game for character shifts, but this one went in the opposite direction I would've liked. I'd rather Jon swing in the opposite direction and be more aggressive/violent in response to his "murder".

-Sandor Clegane. Everything about this storyline was perfect. You have this guy who's contemplating the meaning of his continued survival. He's found this mentor who he's beginning to relate to and come around to thinking that he might still be a decent person. And then it's all destroyed.

There was plenty to dislike about this episode (pretty much everything else besides the above was meh), but it hit far more of its marks than it missed, and was much better than most of the episodes in this season. Jon/Sansa need to get more interesting. Littlefinger needs to pull more strings. Dany needs to stop walking in the desert (seriously, how many hours of the show is Dany walking through desert?). And the Iron Island folks need to just stop trying to be relevant. But the scenes I noted above made this episode worthwhile. I expect, based on the preview, next week's episode will basically just be violence stacked upon violence, so we'll see if it keeps pace with this week's.

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I thought the episode was good overall.

Nice to see the end to the "is the hound dead or alive" mystery.

Glad to see that my thoughts about Margaery playing the High Sparrow is confirmed.

As much as I love Cersei, Olenna Tyrrell is one of the few that can much wits with her in the realm of soul piercing insults. But she is right, Cersei has no one in King's Landing, and while I don't think Tommen will overtly oppose her, he is, pretty much under any influence Margaery has over him.

I think Jon is still coming to terms with the fact that he is not dead. He is also trying to rally houses behind the Stark banner and as we have seen, he is not treated as a true Stark and Sansa was even insulted by being a Bolton or Lannister. And the fact that Jon has aligned with the Wildlings doesnt help his negotiations much and he isnt nor ever claimed to be much of a statesman. It was easier to align with the Wildlings because the Wildlings know about the White Walkers and dead army, but even they didn't want to fight the Boltons. Lets give Jon a bit of credit. I think I'd be a bit shellshocked too if I woke up after being dead for a while.

The whole Arya storyline has been just a long way to prove to Arya that she is a Stark, which sometimes you gotta find out the hard way.

Let's see the Greyjoy scene, that basically had 2 points... 1. gratuitous nudity and 2. a heart to heart with Theon and Yara. We'll see how well they end up aligning with Dany.

I do miss Littlefinger, this is a perfect time for his scheming, for me, he's been missed this season.

And is it me, or is it REALLY noticeable if Tyrion is missing for an episode?
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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For me, I think not having an identifiable character is killing it for me. Theres a lot of talk about how GOT is pretty progressive in terms of representing different minorities - Yara was shown to be gay - but that doesn't work for someone like me. I don't have a problem with nudity, seeing men or women naked doesn't really bother me, I understand some don't like this however which is fair enough. Anyway, back to the point I was gonna make. Having Loras Tyrell being an openly (somewhat) homosexual character on the show was great in season 2, I could identify with him somewhat and it was nice to feel represented. But then in season 3 he became almost a soap opera character. Sleeping around, discussing flowers and banquets (typical gay guy right :rolleye: ) but at the same time, he moved away from being likeable, at least in my eyes.

Same with Yara. She might be commended for being a strong woman, but she is pretty awful too. I just think they pick interesting characters to represent homosexuality. Not that they minority characters should be completely good. It's a complicated subject and I'm not sure I'm putting it as best as I can. But now going back to my original point, not having a likeable heroic lead character - female, male, straight, gay or whatever is starting to ruin it for me. Everyone is pretty disgusting in some way - I love Littlefinger but he's a villain type character, and those appeal to me when playing alongside strong heroic characters. I don't know, its just kinda becoming meh now, story wise and character wise. I can't really route for anyone, except Littlefinger. Jon is boring, Dany is annoying, Sansa feels like an imitation of Littlefinger, Varys and Tyrion have lost what made them great I think. Stannis, who I did actually like, is dead. He served very little purpose to the story though, and you can really see that after his death.

I hope I haven't broken any rules by talking about sexuality, and I hope my own revelation won't offend or upset anyone but it was something I was curious to see if anyone else had formed an opinion on.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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I don't really think I identify with any character on the show. I don't know if that is a good thing or bad thing. I mean, I am a student of psychology, so in some ways I think I may identify, on a thinking/mental level like people like Baelish or Varys or even Tyrion. They look at the big picture and how people are thinking. I definitely don't identify with any of the warrior/hero characters, to be honest, I would be less than useless in a battle.


In other GoT news, I went to a comic con in Dallas this past weekend, and although I wanted desperately to meet Lena Headey, but she had to cancel, I did see Joffrey at his autograph table. I also saw someone walking around in a pretty good Night's King costume.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Lindir, I have to admit similar disappointments with the depiction of different characters on the show and in the books. It seems like every time there's a character who's not straight and white, they have to be shown as being deviants, villains, or killed off promptly. For all the hatred the High Sparrow gets, it certainly does seem like the Gods in the show don't like minorities of any kind. It's a miracle Tyrion has survived as long as he has.

The story had a really great chance to rectify this with Renly, Loras and basically ANY character across the sea, but they have yet to really handle it right. It's so awful that they shipped Jorah Mormont, Barristan Selmy, Tyrion, and Varys across the sea because apparently you have to import white characters. And now we have basically any character with sexuality that's not the straight and narrow being heavily flawed. Say what you will about Yara, she's a murky character at best. Her motivations are foggy and her worth is even foggier. She may yet prove to be something, but for now I'm skeptical.

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well according to my click, GoT ran a full 60 minutes (minus the recap and intro song) which was a welcome... i think they should fill up their time every week. You know they have more than enough footage to run the entire time.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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So the Battle of The Bastards is next week and I'm not hyped. I enjoyed the episode this week somewhat, however Riverun felt completely pointless. Brienne turns up for the Blackfish and the army, but he refuses and then later gets killed and she leaves back with Pod with no army anyway. That's it. I feel like we should have seen Jon and Sansa this week to help build up some hype for next week. I don't know how well their army building is going, but I suspect Littlefinger is gonna arrive and save the day. Sansa was writing to him it would seem at the end of the previous episode. I just hope his reward isn't death :'(

I think... this has been the most meh season of GOT. Season 4 is my favourite, season 5 was a slow burner but had some great moments I felt and some great character building, but this just feels like its falling flat all the way through. Where has Melisandre gone? We got no explanation to her true form, she resurrected Jon and then vanished :O I hope episode 10 will tie a lot of the threads up, but I just hate wasting time with characters that have gone no where. Like if you go back to the earlier seasons, you could very easily remove Stannis and it probably wouldn't be that much different. I keep banging on about Stannis I know, but I was pretty upset he died :rolleye:

My predictions for the finale:

Jon's true parentage will be revealed
Danny teams up with the Greyjoys - or more likely, we get an epic speech and the season ends before they actually officially join forces and then next season she spends the majority of it debating whether it's a good idea or not and then they leave anyway.
Littlefinger and Sansa will have some sort of tense conversation. She may exile him, or kill him. I hope exile, because this year has proved to me that GOT without Littlefinger isn't bearable.
Varys will return to Kings Landing and we may see a scene that was the epilogue of the A Dance with Dragons book.
Bran sets off on his epic quest somewhere (who knows where at this point, but I think it highly likely we'll see him again and The Nights King)
We'll get Cersei's trial. I have a feeling Loras will be given some cruel punishment and most likely be killed. Another wasted character this season. Cersei could possibly die, but I'm holding out hope that the High Sparrow will die.

Thinking ahead... made me think about something that's been bugging me for weeks. I didn't like the reveal of the creation of the White Walkers... it felt so low key. Now, this has worked in the past before with the revelation that Littlefinger was behind pretty much everything that had happened from season one, but this was... bad. It should have been more dramatic. But even then, it was a pretty lacklustre explanation for their existence. Also, they were created to protect but they slaughtered the Children anyway. I suspect that will be explored at some point why they betrayed the Children, but I want to hear them talk and I want them to be frightening and have more of a presence.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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I don't see Cersei just simply being tried and executed... she's gotta go down with some sort of fight, whether it be Jaime coming in for the rescue or the Mountain or Tommen coming to his senses. Her being found guilty and brought down to be beheaded or something just seems so anti-climactic for her character.

I was most excited about Arya, FINALLY she says she is Arya Stark from Winterfell and is going home! Been waiting years for that!!

Curious to see how Dany is going to treat Tyrion after his FUBAR-ing of the Mereen situation.

I think/hope Littlefinger will come in the the knights of Vale and save the day, I doubt Sansa would execute him after saving her.

The RiverRun scene was a bit anti-climactic, I heard it was resolved peacefully in the books, but the Brienne part seemed like a waste of time. Her relationship with Jaime, I figured she could have negotiated the soldiers to ride north, since it was part of their deal anyway.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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jnicktem wrote:Anyone have any theories as to what "rumors" Cersei and Qyburn were talking about?

Maybe Cersei has another ace up her sleeve.
Rumour on the internet is that they have found the stores of wildfire beneath King's Landing, and that Cersei is planning to use it as a last resort to scorch the earth (and the city) if all else fails. With Tommen's latest pronouncement, she is fast running out of options to retain any semblance of control.

For a season that I have generally viewed favourably, this last episode was a massive letdown. I think the writers have become a little lazy and predictable. Here are my three main issues:

1 - Arya. Did we need two whole seasons of her dragging her feet for her to remember who she was, when it was clear all along she had never forgotten that? Yes, she did pick up some good training along the way, but this whole journey of hers feels very pointless for now. Also, did she suddenly acquire the mutant healing powers of Wolverine? The severity of the stomach stab wounds she received are more than enough to kill a strong warrior. I'm willing to accept she got extremely lucky and survived, but not that less than 24 hours later she is running, jumping, and fighting through the streets like she's in an Assassin's Creed game. I don't care how much lady Crane did for her, you just don't come back from wounds like that that fast. It's too unbelievable.

2 - Riverrun. Complete waste of a perfectly good character in the Blackfish. I get the futility of his actions in hindsight with not joining Brienne only to then lose the castle anyway, but the whole thing was just stupid. So these men, stupidly loyal to fault, do not heed the lord that led them to retake the castle and is willing to die for it, instead betray him at the mere word of someone they have not seen in years and know is most likely compromised by his captivity. I was shaking my head in frustration as they all stupidly played right into Jaime's hands. Is every Tully soldier really that naive? If so, they deserve to be thrown from the walls. Blackfish's death was also an utter waste. He could have at least fled north to lend one sword to his niece. Instead, he dies uselessly. As for Edmure, for all his bravado against Jaime, which I applauded as I am really beginning to loathe the Kingslayer, he gives everything up for a son he hasn't ever seen and has no guarantee is even alive. For that matter, for all the insults he heaped upon Jaime for being an indecent human being, what then makes him think he will keep his word? Edmure is a coward and a fool.

3 - Mereen. Well, what more needs to be said? The second I saw those slaver ships sail into the harbour I announced rather loudly exactly who would be arriving (very conveniently) in the nick of time to save the day. Can we please have angel choirs, glowing lights, and showers of rose petals every time Daenerys makes her dramatic and oh so predictable entrances? It's really all that's missing. That, and the Iron Throne under the tree for Christmas. May as well.
This Space for Rent

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I have to confess to being pretty disappointed with this season so far. I don't know I can put a finger on why...mostly, it just feels like it's marking time.

As for last night's episode, I was very glad to see Arya's long and pointless sojourn in Braavos coming to an end. I thought she would actually kill Jaqen. I think the reason why he proclaimed that she had finally achieved success was just an attempt to save his own life through flattering deception. I think however that she spared him because she had failed...she had not become so heartless as to be able to kill someone for no reason, or for some third party's reason.

Riverrun was indeed resolved very peacefully. I think the show is saving its budget for the Battle of the Bastards next week. I thought Jaime was actually pretty clever in how he ended the standoff, if ruthless. But I guess that's the Tywin in him. We do get...and need...the occasional reminder that this guy is, at best, an anti-hero, however handsome and occasionally heroic he may be.

Similarly, I almost feel sorry for Cersei as I see her react to how poorly things are turning out for her. And then I remember what a spiteful, hateful wretch she is. If she truly is planning to burn King's Landing, and that actually goes forward, obviously that will be such a big story element that it will have to be in one of the final seasons.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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