Ack!

Thanks for posting that info, Jamie.

[quote=""Jamie Shakespeare""]Hey guys, I've got some bad bad news, news which I hope is incorrect, but I'm sure it's not. I emailed United Cutlery's contact email on their site a few days ago, to ask if anything new was planned to be released after Christmas, as I was anxious to know whether I should save the money I have for a new piece. This is the reply I recieved from Kim Nesmith:

Jamie,

Unfortunately the Lord of the Rings line has come to an end. When we run out the items that we have now, there will be no more.

Sorry for any inconvenience this has caused you.

Thanks,
Kim


As I say, I'm hoping this is a mistake by a sales rep or secretary or something, but its straight from UC. Unless it's incorrect, or they've been told to say nothings coming out to hide the releases, or they're waiting until the hobbit, I guess this is confirmation that the United Cutlery LOTR line is now officially finished. Rest in peace[/quote]

The wording of the reply may be important...if you take it literally.
The "LOTR" line of swords is at an end. The next line will be "the Hobbit" line. So we may see Orcrist and a reissue of Sting, and lesser weapons (like the 1st generation of the famous LOTR RMC ).

Still, that is very bad news about the LOTR line. But as has been discussed previously, another manufacturer may pick up the license. Although that is quite e xp ensive to do, as Thrandy pointed out in his itemization of the cost to acquire licensing.

Here's hoping against hope that the LOTR line is somehow, somewhere revived or continued.

Well it's what I was completely e xp ecting after we got word that their new pieces for '09 were Isilidur's Sword, which has a crappy job on the handle, and Sam's Sword and Gimli's Bearded Axe, which no one wanted. Granted, the Gimli axe isn't bad and was bought up by axe lovers (I have yet to get one though) but given the fact that the previous axes didn't sell well, it wasn't a good decision on UC's part.

I'm not too upset, there's a 50% percent chance that we'll get my LotR stuff when the The Hobbit comes out, from UC or not from UC. And I now know that I'm free to hang Sam's Sword on the wall wherever I damn well please because I don't need to leave room for stuff!

[quote=""Jamie Shakespeare""]Hey guys, I've got some bad bad news, news which I hope is incorrect, but I'm sure it's not. I emailed United Cutlery's contact email on their site a few days ago, to ask if anything new was planned to be released after Christmas, as I was anxious to know whether I should save the money I have for a new piece. This is the reply I recieved from Kim Nesmith:

Jamie,

Unfortunately the Lord of the Rings line has come to an end. When we run out the items that we have now, there will be no more.

Sorry for any inconvenience this has caused you.

Thanks,
Kim


As I say, I'm hoping this is a mistake by a sales rep or secretary or something, but its straight from UC. Unless it's incorrect, or they've been told to say nothings coming out to hide the releases, or they're waiting until the hobbit, I guess this is confirmation that the United Cutlery LOTR line is now officially finished. Rest in peace[/quote]



NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!11

Blasted! I was so looking forward to Haldir's sword... =/

It's something I felt you should all know, as I know we all have spent the last few years of our lives looking out for what new items they bring out. It's such a shame they didn't listen to what we wanted when they came back into business, I would guess that if they had, the items may have sold better and therefore the line could continue (Guthwine?). I do think the best hope is that someone, hopefully UC, will pick up the hobbit licence and produce some more items, back to the glory days of old UC items! With the hobbit being filmed soon, and items possibly not selling so well, they may have decided to call it a day until the hobbit, then continue, and maybe produce items from LOTR again too, along side the hobbit items? sorry about the disjointed nature of this reply, I'm just trying to gett all of my ideas down

I guess, for those of us who don't have a full collection yet, there is still some joy to be had in the form of items out there we have not yet aquired (Sauron helmet, Ringwraith sword, Gondorian shield and helmet and Elven war sword for me!) but it seems strange to finally know that the line is at an end. If anyone emails them and finds out any different, please let us know! perhaps we should all email them requesting a final item, guthwine (get your friends and family to email them too!)

Right, I'm finished writing

I don't know if Kits around here anymore, or if indeed he even works for UC anymore, but it would be great if we could get confirmation on either the end or the end of LOTR to start The Hobbit line from him

It is not and end. The death of the UC line is but another adventure, one we must all take. Time for you to collect polystone!

Thranduil may be able to e xp and and take over the market!

[quote=""Jamie Shakespeare""]Thranduil may be able to e xp and and take over the market![/quote]


He's good...but not that good. Unless he's a master swordsmith and hasn't told anyone about it.

I would offer up a possible new hope here.

Weta is growing at leaps and bounds and as we all know Peter Lyon is NOT rolling in the dough.

It might well be that a new manufacturer is about to be born.

United Cutlery is NOT the manufacturer. They are a name that sub-contracts the swords to:
Taiwan;
China;
you get the picture?

Weta digital just got a seven million dollar grant from NZ government for high tech enterprises.

Richard Taylor's character is already proven in my mind. The opportunity to monopolize the collectibles in this situation is in fact at hand.

Oooh, I hadn't thought of that. Weta listens to their customers...not a bad idea.

Perhaps the reason WETA are finally able to make LOTR sword collectibles (Master Sowrdsmith ones no less!) is because the license with UC ran out? I do hope WETA may be able to take the reins, if anyone can top UC, it's them.

Yeah, but at what cost? The Master Swordsmith collection is nice, but let's face it: very few of us can afford those, especially over the long term. If they take over, they need to make stuff that is both affodrdable and mass-produced (they kinda go hand-in hand.) The other nasty bit is how far NZ is for shipping stuff like that, with most of the customer base in North America and Europe. In the Weta+Sideshow days, they had a distribution centre in California and that's where they shipped stuff to us, but I'm not sure now since Sideshow and Weta have split up their products. Maybe the guys collecting the new environments and such can tell us: where is this stuff being shipped from?

As for UC, yeah, it's sad, but the writing's been on the wall for quite some time. Guess someone over there finally woke up and decided to admit it.

[quote=""Valkrist""]In the Weta+Sideshow days, they had a distribution centre in California and that's where they shipped stuff to us, but I'm not sure now since Sideshow and Weta have split up their products. Maybe the guys collecting the new environments and such can tell us: where is this stuff being shipped from?

[/quote]

They are still shipping from CA.

[quote=""Valkrist""]Yeah, but at what cost? The Master Swordsmith collection is nice, but let's face it: very few of us can afford those, especially over the long term. If they take over, they need to make stuff that is both affodrdable and mass-produced (they kinda go hand-in hand.) The other nasty bit is how far NZ is for shipping stuff like that, with most of the customer base in North America and Europe. In the Weta+Sideshow days, they had a distribution centre in California and that's where they shipped stuff to us, but I'm not sure now since Sideshow and Weta have split up their products. Maybe the guys collecting the new environments and such can tell us: where is this stuff being shipped from?

As for UC, yeah, it's sad, but the writing's been on the wall for quite some time. Guess someone over there finally woke up and decided to admit it.[/quote]
I was thinking more in line of Peter Lyon taking over for Kit and Weta holding the reigns for the sub-contracting.

UC shipping what's made in Taiwan or China is no different than from NZ.
Might even be better, their closer to the manufacturing sources (resources).

I know that Weta ships from the West coast. Two people I know got their Smaug the Golden (with the base problems) shipped from Oregon, and I'm pretty sure they ship stuff out of California. I know that they also produce much of their stuff in China because that's where the bad Smag bases started...poor application of bad glue for the veneer in China. So basically, like Thrandrew said, Pete and the guys and gals at Weta would just be taking over the reins and finishing what United Cutlery started back in their glory days.

Weta starting production sword line? Unlikely. Let them continue with small
runs for die-hard fans and let Albion pick up the LotR license. They're able
to make high-end collectibles (just remember their jaw-dropping approach
on Conan line and Discerner/Excalibur masterpiece, and imagine if they were
able to continue Highlander series). I'd be ready to replace all my UC swords
with Albion's versions in time. True, they're 5x more e xp ensive than UC, but
they're also 5x better.

And 5x cheaper than Weta's relics.

I'd rather purchase one fully functional Albion LOTR a year than five UC's
display swords. And we're all still young.

Albion would also be a fine choice. If they made a sword that UC didn't, I wouldn't hesitate to save up for it.

[quote=""Fingolfin""]Albion would also be a fine choice. If they made a sword that UC didn't, I wouldn't hesitate to save up for it.[/quote]

Ditto- if Albion picked up the license, I'd be positively ecstatic (and most likely several thousand dollars poorer!). Never owned one myself, but held one (the Crecy, I think. It was a few years ago during a visit to New Mexico) once and it was an exceedingly fine sword. Top-notch work.

In fact, ed, having Albion make LotR swords is the best idea I've heard in a long time

I hate to be a stick in the mud here, but the unfortunate truth is that this is about making money.

With the license fee and off the top profits going to Warner Bros. Mass production becomes the only way to really achieve the goals for any maker.

The higher the price, the lower the amount of people willing to buy; the quality verses price argument begins to implode upon itself.

If LE's were in the thousands, then unlimiteds need to be in the 10's of thousands, and that requires substantial tooling set ups.

Albion seems to be a low production very high quality outfit, so maybe we can hope that MC's will be subbed out to them, but there again I think Peter Lyon has an opportunity here to create his own outfit of apprentices creating them.

Weta went from being a very small outfit to becoming the world premiere FX studio doing big budget films over the last ten years. Staggering how many films they've been involved with.

Time will tell. I just hope affordable pieces will be made, so again forums like this can boom.

Whatever happens, it's going to exciting to watch as it unfolds.

I think this thread dovetails into what I put into my first post. The cost of the Masters collection is more then the cost of getting a high quality sword. I have payed 2k to 2.5k for extremely high quality swords. Since you are paying for whos doing them and collector appeal of WETA. There are a number of very talented smiths that can make you a near identical swords for a third of the cost. Albion would be a great way to go for high quality sword for a 1/3 of the price of WETA. Although I think Tim is feeling rather burned over the Conan licensing thing and Marto. Might not want to get into another one. Personally I have little use for wall hangers. I know I wont be swinging it around chopping anything but somehow I just cant justify a wall hanger even though I have a few. Thats why I like the idea of going to an outside source other then UC or Weta.

I for one wasn't surprised to hear this. Hazarding a guess, I would say that the number of us who are still dedicated to this hobby (LOTR swords at least) has dropped. Factor in the economy and it's not exactly a healthy environment at the present time. Heck, there are a lot of these pieces on eBay, at very decent prices but still not moving.

Actually, there are some existing swords that I've held off on, waiting to see if new swords were coming out. With none on the way, I'll pick up a few of the older ones.

Exactly my thoughts as well, Mike. I don't have to worry about what might be released or where I might need to leave room. Just going to buy and hang.

Remember, Thranduil- Albion has done the licensing game before with several franchises, and I have no doubt they'd be able to pull off a LotR line.

[quote=""Alexander""]I think this thread dovetails into what I put into my first post. The cost of the Masters collection is more then the cost of getting a high quality sword. I have payed 2k to 2.5k for extremely high quality swords.[/quote]

Actually, the price of any Master Swordsmith's blade so far is more than fair
and realistic. $6.000 for a piece of art from one of world's leading bladesmiths
(a piece of art that takes him nearly 100 hours to complete!) is an incredible
deal. It's not that they're asking $100.000 -- although I bet they would be
able to get that amount too; there's at least ten wealthy fanatics in universe.

Please tell me which "2k to 2.5k extremely high quality" sword were you
comparing to Peter Lyon's handmades exactly? I agree, some swords in that
price range are brilliant (some are horrible), but I can't name one $2.000
design that could come even near to these. The ONLY swordmaker (I know
of) that can make something comparable is Peter Johnsson -- and, again, he
asks approx. $6.000 for his work (he deserves every penny too).

You're not buying just "a high quality sword" from Weta. Their product is
unlike many other (more or less) skilled smiths' work. What you're getting is
also a piece of film's history; the ultimate cinematic collectible quite unlike
any other that has ever been offered to fans until these days.

[quote=""Alexander""]Since you are paying for whos doing them and collector appeal of WETA. There are a number of very talented smiths that can make you a near identical swords for a third of the cost.[/quote]

Name one.

And define "near identical". There's a huge difference between "near identical"
and "identical".

And no, I'm definitely not buying this because of signatures on a certificate.
Yes, I'm delighted to own them, but to pay 3x the price just for having a
name would be insane. Do you think I'm insane? Believe me, I'm not wealthy;
I'm nothing more than a sorrowful Eurotrash laborer.

[quote=""Alexander""]Albion would be a great way to go for high quality sword for a 1/3 of the price of WETA.[/quote]

Sure. But in this particular case you really can't compare production-made
pieces to top-notch handmades. When I proposed Albion, I thought of it as
the best possible alternative to United Cutlery -- definitely not as a
challenger to Weta Workshop. That would be ridiculous.



And, Thranduil, we could debate about money, but I'm not an e xp ert when it
comes to market of this sort. Yet it's easy to imagine, if you try: if Albion
starts selling 5x more e xp ensive swords, and gets 5x less customers, they're
practically making the same money.

Thanks for saying what I was thinking of posting about Peter Lyon vs production swords, ed

As the saying goes, nobody can make a Stradivarius like Stradivari can.

[quote=""ed209""]
And, Thranduil, we could debate about money, but I'm not an e xp ert when it
comes to market of this sort. Yet it's easy to imagine, if you try: if Albion
starts selling 5x more e xp ensive swords, and gets 5x less customers, they're
practically making the same money.[/quote]

I'm certainly not going to argue that point because I understand where your coming from completely.

In terms of strictly numbers (and I'm talking round numbers here just to make an example, Not trying put exact prices in terms of reality). I'm guessing about Glamdring, but Sting for sure will have four versions, so I'll use Sting.

Unlimited version of production run 10,000 @ $150 = 1.5 Million
LE version run 5000 @ ??$350 = 1.75 Million.
MC version run 2000 @ ??$700 = 1.4 Million.
MSSC version 15 @ $6500 = $97.500 Is this sad or what?

So take out the fees and Peter Lyon gets screwed. The others have a chance to actually make some money, but only one out of the four examples carries with it the ability to continue.

The decision to make any product carries with it the "IF" factor. It's like a guess factor. It's these unknowns that play part of the decision.
Peter Lyon could do a larger run and make more money, but obviously his other commitments also fall into it and play a factor in the decision; How many, or not at all?

I can relate to all four positions, but my personal decision is that of unlimited for my reasons.
At the other end of the spectrum we have N2darkness, who already has the first three and I'll bet is first in line for Sting MSSC.
If N2 pulls that off he then has a different kind of rare. One of very few (if any) Complete Set of Sting. Ouch

[quote=""Thranduil""]Unlimited version of production run 10,000 @ $150 = 1.5 Million
LE version run 5000 @ ??$350 = 1.75 Million.
MC version run 2000 @ ??$700 = 1.4 Million.
MSSC version 15 @ $6500 = $97.500 Is this sad or what?

So take out the fees and Peter Lyon gets screwed.[/quote]

Again, you can't compare money made on customs opposed to production
pieces. MSSC is made by one man, others are made by teams, factories, etc.
Completely different kind of business.

Besides, Peter Lyon is employed at Weta Workshop, full-time. I can't be sure
how it all goes, but my guess would be that he's paid by an hour, not by a
sword. And these swords do not belong to him, but to Weta.

[quote=""Thranduil""]Peter Lyon could do a larger run and make more money, but obviously his other commitments also fall into it and play a factor in the decision; How many, or not at all?[/quote]

Again, I'm not sure if he's getting bonuses of some sort. Perhaps there's no
difference in his paychecks whether he's crafting MSSC piece or screen-used
prop. It's all his job.

[quote=""Thranduil""]At the other end of the spectrum we have N2darkness, who already has the first three and I'll bet is first in line for Sting MSSC.
If N2 pulls that off he then has a different kind of rare. One of very few (if any) Complete Set of Sting. Ouch [/quote]

I don't understand this. "First three" of what? MSSC swords? (I didn't know
that!)

Or "first three" Stings? But (Noble Collection version excluded), there are two
versions of Sting: unlimited and MC. And it's practically the same thing; not to
mention that when you upgrade it to MC, unlimited becomes practically
worthless.

You got me confused here!

[quote=""ed209""]Actually, the price of any Master Swordsmith's blade so far is more than fair
and realistic. $6.000 for a piece of art from one of world's leading bladesmiths
(a piece of art that takes him nearly 100 hours to complete!) is an incredible
deal. It's not that they're asking $100.000 -- although I bet they would be
able to get that amount too; there's at least ten wealthy fanatics in universe.

Please tell me which "2k to 2.5k extremely high quality" sword were you
comparing to Peter Lyon's handmades exactly? I agree, some swords in that
price range are brilliant (some are horrible), but I can't name one $2.000
design that could come even near to these. The ONLY swordmaker (I know
of) that can make something comparable is Peter Johnsson -- and, again, he
asks approx. $6.000 for his work (he deserves every penny too).

You're not buying just "a high quality sword" from Weta. Their product is
unlike many other (more or less) skilled smiths' work. What you're getting is
also a piece of film's history; the ultimate cinematic collectible quite unlike
any other that has ever been offered to fans until these days.



Name one.

And define "near identical". There's a huge difference between "near identical"
and "identical".

And no, I'm definitely not buying this because of signatures on a certificate.
Yes, I'm delighted to own them, but to pay 3x the price just for having a
name would be insane. Do you think I'm insane? Believe me, I'm not wealthy;
I'm nothing more than a sorrowful Eurotrash laborer.



Sure. But in this particular case you really can't compare production-made
pieces to top-notch handmades. When I proposed Albion, I thought of it as
the best possible alternative to United Cutlery -- definitely not as a
challenger to Weta Workshop. That would be ridiculous.



And, Thranduil, we could debate about money, but I'm not an e xp ert when it
comes to market of this sort. Yet it's easy to imagine, if you try: if Albion
starts selling 5x more e xp ensive swords, and gets 5x less customers, they're
practically making the same money.[/quote]

Sure they could get 100k they sold out the others in a month.
The two swords where the Conan swords by Albion. The production methods use by Peter Lyon is the same as Albion. They start with a blank then they grind everything away that doesnt look like a sword. Difference would be in the guards and pommel where Albion cast them in bronze and Peter grinds them out of blanks. The big difference is Albion has ten people doing it where Peter is the only one doing the LOTR.
Near identical I think would be something from Fable Blades like their Warden of the white tower. A very close copy of Boromir's sword.

[quote=""Thranduil""]
At the other end of the spectrum we have N2darkness, who already has the first three and I'll bet is first in line for Sting MSSC.
If N2 pulls that off he then has a different kind of rare. One of very few (if any) Complete Set of Sting. Ouch [/quote]

The 3 I have are the 2 UC versions. Standard and MC and which I sold the standard version after I aquired the MC version and the 3rd is the light up MR version ( which I only paid $15 bucks for when they were on clearance ) and I don't own the Noble version. As for getting the MSSC version, I so wish I could afford it as I do see it being the ultimate collectible to bridge both the LOTR and the upcoming Hobbit films. I can't quite justify the cost and e xp laining it to the wife is a whole other situation.

[quote=""N2darkness""]The 3 I have are the 2 UC versions. Standard and MC and which I sold the standard version after I aquired the MC version and the 3rd is the light up MR version ( which I only paid $15 bucks for when they were on clearance ) and I don't own the Noble version. As for getting the MSSC version, I so wish I could afford it as I do see it being the ultimate collectible to bridge both the LOTR and the upcoming Hobbit films. I can't quite justify the cost and e xp laining it to the wife is a whole other situation. [/quote]

Well that answers that. I'm never sure which swords have LE or MC editions, there's so many.

Sorry to hear you won't be getting the MSSC Sting, but wives tend to do that. I'm sure she would object to a $6500 piece of jewelry, like a nice earing, bracelet, necklace set? Or is she more practical?

[quote=""Alexander""]The two swords where the Conan swords by Albion. The production methods use by Peter Lyon is the same as Albion. They start with a blank then they grind everything away that doesnt look like a sword. Difference would be in the guards and pommel where Albion cast them in bronze and Peter grinds them out of blanks. The big difference is Albion has ten people doing it where Peter is the only one doing the LOTR.[/quote]

I thought you were referring to Albion Conan Swords, but I wasn't sure. First
you said that the production methods are same as Peter Lyon's, and then you
mentioned this huge difference (cast vs. grind fittings).

Personally, I was fortunate enough to hold all these weapons, so I know a bit
of what I'm talking about. Moongloom83 *owns* them all (a stunning feat),
and he could tell much more:

[quote=""Moonglum83""]...the grinds on the blades are the best I've ever seen on any sword in 15+ years collecting. Peter Lyon's blade-smithing is absolutely top notch. Beats the pants off my Albion Atlantean and Father's swords, and that is really saying something. His blade work is truly awesome.[/quote]

You are correct about "...start with a blank then they grind everything away
that doesnt look like a sword" part. (I've read that sentence so many times in
my life that it's becoming funny now.) But what about the remaining process:

- finish is completely different (I don't think I have to go in details here)
- Albion's engraving is done by electrodes; Peter Lyon uses acid-etching
- Albion's fittings are cast in bronze; Peter Lyon shapes them out of mild steel
blocks
- handles are differently wrapped (traditional wet leather for MSSC)

Not to mention that we're comparing fully functional swords with fantasy
artworks. Just because Albion is using high carbon steel for these film swords,
it doesn't mean they're functional -- that weapon is 40" overall and close to
8 ponds in weight!

Now. I really don't want anybody to get me wrong. I love and need Albion
Conans so much that I actually skipped purchasing Glamdring in order to
afford them! Comparing completely different things (style-wise, production-
wise, functionality...), it was a tough decision, but now that I have MSSC
Andúril, Albion Conans are the next best thing in my mind. Having UC's MC
Glamdring, I can (barely) survive without MSSC, but Albion's Father &
Atlantean combo is an imperative. They're crucial pieces for my collection.

[quote=""Alexander""]Near identical I think would be something from Fable Blades like their Warden of the white tower. A very close copy of Boromir's sword.[/quote]

Sigh. I was hoping you're not gonna mention those copycats. If the "Warden"
is "a very close copy", then UC's Boromir Sword is "a much, much closer
copy". True, UC's version could snap if you'd hit your desk with it and it's
balanced like crap, but (properly displayed) it looks almost exactly like film's
prop. Fable Blades' piece (probably) feels better in hand, and you could
(probably) use it in war, but visually, with it's handle color, without those
"rings" on guard ends and smaller pommel, it looks like some gaudy Paki
replica.

(Then again, if you're gonna take this sword to war or practice slashing water
bottles in your backyard, why does it have to look (almost) like a film sword
at all?)

I've said it all before: I'd choose between extra e xp ensive Weta sword or
extra cheap licensed display replica. So far I've been collecting both. But
there's no way I would buy something in between just because it's similar to a
sword I like. Obvious differences would poke my brain whenever I'd look at it.

For a price of a functional look-a-like, I'd rather go for something 100%
independent and original. Which brings me back to Fable Blades: they offer
some of those one-of-a-kinds too, but no matter how good they are for
wielding, those designs (Sting for example) look terrible.



[quote=""N2darkness""]As for getting the MSSC version, I so wish I could afford it as I do see it being the ultimate collectible to bridge both the LOTR and the upcoming Hobbit films.[/quote]

It's getting more and more difficult to snatch any of those. First they will be
offered to Glamdring customers, remaining numbers (if any) to Strider's,
additional remaining (if any) to Andúrils, and only then to MSSC virgins. If
any.

It's a fair game, but also a difficult one.

Hey Ed, Wow I didn't know that the anduril and strider owners are next in line for sting after glamdring owners.

Looks like very few newcomers will get their hand on sting unless weta e xp ands the edition size again. Because I know for a fact that if weta hadn't increase the edition size for glamdring, only 2 newcomers would have had the chance to purchase glamdring since only #04 & #09 were available.

[quote=""Aragorn""]I know for a fact that if weta hadn't increase the edition size for glamdring, only 2 newcomers would have had the chance to purchase glamdring since only #04 & #09 were available.[/quote]

Actually, that's not bad! Andúril customers could pick between #02, #04 and
#09.

[quote=""ed209""]It's a fair game, but also a difficult one.[/quote]

Which reminds me, thanks for advising me to e-mail Weta all those months ago with my interest in Glamdring, Moonglum!

Gave me a few hours of advance warning which helped me get the sword, so I'm grateful for your advice

I e xp ect Weta will definitely increase the ES for the MSSC Sting. There will likely be 20, I hope not too many more than that. Does anyone know how many owners there are total of the Master Swordsmith Collection swords? I'm sure there are a few who have purchased all three, but most who bought probably only have one of them. This could make it difficult to get a Sting.

[quote=""Jamanticus""]Which reminds me, thanks for advising me to e-mail Weta all those months ago with my interest in Glamdring, Moonglum!

Gave me a few hours of advance warning which helped me get the sword, so I'm grateful for your advice [/quote]
You got your foot in the door just in time, I'm happy for you Jaman

I'll tell you what, I'll forgo your weathered MSSC if you forgive my polished unlimited Glamy

^^^^^^^^^^^^^Oh, I forgot, that was humor people^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Getting back to the whole "end of UC's LOTR line" announcement. I've been to busy lately to keep up, and completely missed this thread. But, I was playing a little catch up and I thought I'd throw in my two cent's of theory into why UC is stepping away from the line.

I think there are many factors at hand, so bear with me. Frankly, I'm surprised it took this long for UC to step away from the line. Let's keep a few things in mind as to the history of UC and the LOTR line. The UC we speak of today is not the same UC that first acquired the license and gave birth to the first LOTR weapons. That UC went bankrupt and was later purchased and reborn. I won't say restructured, but reborn as they moved the whole company and started from almost scratch. And who was it that bought UC? The owner of BudK. BudK had always had a relationship with UC, and sold many of their products, including the LOTR line, Kit Rae designs, Gil Hibben knives, and many other UC products. But, those lines were always some of the most e xp ensive items in the BudK catalog. BudK has always carried primarily the lower priced, mass produced and more novelty related items. So, the LOTR line was probably not one of it's fast movers. As we all saw in what LOTR items were produced by post-bankruptcy UC, such as the Sword of Isildur (personally, my biggest thorn in the side with the new UC), the new UC was attempting to prooduce a line that, quality-wise, was more in line with the other types of products that you see on BudK, that being cheaper materials and less attention to detail. I think they found it very hard to keep up the quality that we were accustomed to with the original line of the early years, and keep it at a price point they could push to a larger mass market. I also suspect after the flack they caught from us die-hard LOTR weapon collectors on the quality of the latest LOTR items they had put out, they realized that they could not keep up that quality we were used to at the price ranges we were used to, nor was our niche worth them trying. And, one more thing to keep in mind as they looked to the possible future of the line is that looming threat that the new licensed items might have to be produced permamnently fixed to their displays. That would definitely take a bite out of the purchasing consumer base.

Next...the economy over the last two years. I don't think I need to go into that one allot. It has made even the most die-hard collectors slam on the brakes of spending money. That along with unemployment has made many collectors sell off their collections and no longer collect at all. The sword and collectibles industries have felt the pain of recent economic conditions as muchas if not more than many others. This recent retail climate has made all sorts of retailers reevaluate their markets and focus. If it's not popular, or just not moving.....can it and move on! Focus you business dollars where the markets dictate.

I think that the economic conditions and the direction that the new UC owners felt that they had to go to target the largest consumer group with the lowest dollar items made the whole LOTR line to the new UC much like Hummer had become to GM this past year.....and thus it's demise.

I do hope someone else picks up the line once the Hobbit comes out. Hopefully, by then the economy will have recovered enough for someone to find it a viable and profitable undertaking, and hopefully at the quality level of the old days. I would hate to see it die.

Just my thoughts. I think at least some of the above are true and at least part of the story.

Just a couple of points I'd like to throw in here.

First; It wasn't UC's LOTR line that created any problems for UC. They went bankrupt because they tried to monopolize the knife market. I took a look at the history prior to the bankruptcy and found out they were buying up every single knife manufacturer they could world wide.
They got themselves in over their head and it all fell apart.

Secondly; The LOTR license e xp ired, my guess is they aren't in the position financially to renew it, and due to the Hobbit coming up, a new line (no pun intended) of swords will be born. Warner Bros. probably refused UC to renew the license based on financial reports being too unstable. They need a solid company to take the reigns.

And finally; When I found out about the whole licensing fee and cost issues I had to do my own math on feasibility of production costs and time and weigh it against a customer base. It boiled down to some simple questions:
1- How much are people willing to pay for a collectible?
2- How many would I have to create to get over the hump of the fees, costs, royalties, etc.
3- Is there enough people interested to meet those requirements?

Like Guthwine and other swords, UC had to make tough decisions about what to produce and what not to produce. The demand didn't meet the projected costs- it becomes a "No Go".

So here's a hypothetical using my Mythril Shirt as the example and round numbers:

Edition size of 1000
License & off the top profits $50,000
Royalties @ 8% for Warner Bros, & another 8% to Tolkien Enterprises.
Even if I got Ringmesh in on the deal and they knocked off 40% for Chainmail it's $102 per shirt PLUS the collar @ guesstimate of $35 each, so lets call it $140 material and $20 (Made in China) labor- $160.
Add the royalties on @ $25.60 = $185.60 per shirt

Edition creates $185,600 dollars less $50,000 down to $135,600.

Now divide that by 3 years production $45,000 per year. Not too bad but it requires 1000 GUARANTEED buyers and doesn't include insurance, tooling, shipping & handling.

I hope this helps give a glimpse of manufacturing decisions and the risks involved. They're tough calls to make.

All these pieces that are prototypes from UC had to make the cut, they didn't, and now that the Hobbit is coming, the LOTR line is dead.

Yes, there are many here who would buy these pieces, but lets face it, UC is still looking for buyers of what was produced, there are some still out there brand new in the box never opened.

It's a tough game. Keeping costs down to keep the price affordable so a large edition can be produced, or keep the price high and go for a select few buyers and HOPE for the same result.

[quote=""Jamie Shakespeare""]I don't know if Kits around here anymore, or if indeed he even works for UC anymore, but it would be great if we could get confirmation on either the end or the end of LOTR to start The Hobbit line from him[/quote]

I was wondering if Kit might have some info as well, so I e-mailed him. Sounds like you hit the nail on the head on several points, Thrandy. He got back to me pretty quick. Here's my inquiry and his response:

Kit,
I am a member of the Ultimate Collectors Forum. I read in a thread that one of the members had contacted United Cutlery about any future releases of Lord of The Rings weapons and was informed that the line was discontinued and that once the current stock was gone, no more would be produced. I thought I would get your input and thoughts, and also to inquire as to the future of your line. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Response:


As I understand it, all LOTR licenses were set to e xp ire prior to The Hobbit release, allowing time to sell of remaining inventory. New Line/Warner stated that all the licensing focus is to be on the Hobbit films going forward, which is completely understandable from their point of view. I don't know if it is the case with all licensees, but they are not interested in discussing any renewals for LOTR at all, just the Hobbit. That's probably not set in stone, and it may be just for the next 2-3 years, as I'm sure The Hobbit films will spark interest all around in anything to do with Middle-earth and get collector interest going for LOTR once again. Considering the long lead time to develop, make, and sell through a new product (about two years), there is no way to do any new products in that time.

This has nothing to do with my product line. I have a new sword and a bladed spear coming out in the Spring, as well as several other projects in the works.

Have a great Christmas and New Year,
Kit

So....it appears that ALL hope is not lost. If the Hobbit does spark the interest needed, and if the designers can put pencil to paper to get a jump on some mock-up designs before film release, they just might be able to trim a little time off the two years that he references and maybe, just maybe, get the wheels rolling on licensing and get some products developed.

Cross your fingers, make sacrifices to the Gods, carry a rabbit's foot, do whatever you can think of.

In reality, I think that even if UC did renew an LOTR license during or after The Hobbit films, we would probably only see a selection of the top sellers return, so don't get your hopes up. There are a lots of "if"s - like if UC gets The Hobbit license, and pending that, if they decide to try and get an LOTR license again later, if they decide to bring anything new out. They may not do any of that. Even if New Line wanted to continue the LOTR line, right now I don't think there is any interest for UC to renew. I know the only reason they renewed after the original trilogy was over was because there was still some momentum going into The Hobbit films. The line essentially died over two years ago when The Hobbit went into limbo. Without a new film in the works, the collector base dried up. The world wide economy being in the crapper has not helped either.

It had a good run though. 11 years is a long time for one license, and I'm still amazed at some of the replicas we were able to make in that time.

Sad to hear it confirmed, but nonetheless good to hear from a reliable source close to the matter at hand.

Thanks for stopping by, Kit, and for giving us your insight on the issue.

Yes, always a pleasure to have Mr. Rae stop by and grace us with his presence. It is sad to know the line has indeed ended, but hopefully another company will pick up the license. Just look at StarWars, they still have collectibles being produced 30 years later.

UC still has the license, they just can't make any new products in the window available before the license runs out. It was also New Line/Warners directive that no LOTR licenses be renewed, only licenses for the Hobbit. I assume that is still the case as I have not heard anything different. I'm sure the LOTR license will come open again eventually, it just may be several years.

Back to the thread topic, I looked at the concept art pix on page 1. Those are actual UC concepts developed in my department at UC from back in 2003-2004, many of which I spoke about here. These are low res, and someone dropped those fuzzy movie pix in the background. Looks like a scan of a color print. I never posted them anywhere that I can recall, so somebody must have snuck them out of my art department, or they could be from something UC's old sales team gave to a dealer. There were many more concepts than those that were drawn up, but you can see the Sauron sword and mace - my two favorites. I don't think that is the final mace display design, but the thing would have been huge! We scaled it from the Weta prop, which I still have. The high tooling cost, unit cost, and shipping weight just did not work with the numbers, so it was canceled. We toyed with the idea of a smaller scale replica, but New Line was not for that. Of course, a few years later I was at the LOTR exhibit in Indiana shooting pix of some props (stuff UC was considering making but could no longer get props from Weta) and what do I see? The full scale Sauron suit of armor holding a mace that was considerably smaller than my Weta prop. About 30% smaller, but still huge. About the size of what I wanted to scale ours down to. Had we known there were two shooting prop scales we could have easily convinced New Line to let us make it.

I was really hoping for Guthwine and Haldir's sword before the license ended

[quote=""Nasnandos""]The high tooling cost, unit cost, and shipping weight just did not work with the numbers, so it was canceled. [/quote]

The short version of what I was trying to e xp lain
It is a pleasure to have Mr. Rea as part of our forum.

Now we just need to confirm swords mounted to their plaques.

I'm happy to hear that UC is still a contender for Hobbit pieces.

[quote=""Elvenguard13""]I was really hoping for Guthwine and Haldir's sword before the license ended [/quote]

As was I. I really wanted to get Haldir's in there before the end, but sales on existing Elven swords has been lack luster the past few years, so UC was not willing to invest in it. Guthwine was one of my favorites, but the first two Rohan swords sold poorly, and other than a few people on this forum, there had been no one asking for it.

Thanks for stopping by Kit, it's always a pleasure to hear from you! it is sad that the LOTR line will end (for the time being possibly) but we still have the Hobbit to look forward to.

I am anxious to see what Kit has in store for his line... my Exotath, Avoloch, Mithrodin and all my various daggers from his line need a new friend.. Unfortunately, I didn't get to collect all of the SoA line due to that dang LOTR line.... it's hard collecting 3 lines at once... LOtR, Kit Rae and Hibben (caused me miss a lot of other things I was interested in)

But thanks again Kit for stopping by.... don't be a stranger!

Thanks for shedding more light on the situation, Kit. It's great to have you drop in again. Hopefully, you'll be updating your website with some sneak peeks at your upcoming 2011 releases soon. Have a very Merry Christmas.

That's odd that the Rohan swords sold poorly. I can see why some people would be turned off by the grip on the High Elven Warrior Sword or the curved blades on the other elven weapons (not that I have a problem with them, but it's just not some people's cup of tea), but the Rohan swords are beautiful!