Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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It can be heated to specific colors, but it's too difficult to control in production consistently. If we made the blade carbon steel, we have a gun bluing process that works well, but it's too dark.

I'll run the blue tinted clear coating idea by the United folks again. I know another run of the old Sting swords is in the works, but it's probably too late to make it part of that run.

Kit
KRDS

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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Nasnandos wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 7:45 am It can be heated to specific colors, but it's too difficult to control in production consistently. If we made the blade carbon steel, we have a gun bluing process that works well, but it's too dark.

I'll run the blue tinted clear coating idea by the United folks again. I know another run of the old Sting swords is in the works, but it's probably too late to make it part of that run.

Kit
It would also be great if they could grind the blade closer to the hilt as well. Probably wishful thinking as this point.

Also, I saw on an older Man of Arms videos on Youtube where they did blue on just one side of the blade, that way you could display it either way.

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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Valkrist wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:04 pm Do you take it as a compliment when your stuff shows up in a medium like that, or is it annoying that your work has been stolen, in a manner of speaking? I guess it's the same problem with knock-off blades appearing in other countries - not really much you can do legally.
As far as I'm concerned, it's free promotion. I have been seeing mys tuff in movies, tv shows, and games for over 25 years now, so it's not that exciting anymore. Seems like I see something a few times a month, just watching tv, and I usually forget what show I was watching by the next day. The short appearances happen so often that the wife and I barely even acknowledge it anymore. "Hey, I think that was my so-and-so that dude just used to stab that other dude." "Oh, that's nice dear."

My knives usually just flash on screen for a few seconds, but occasionally they get a lot of screen time. My M48 Cyclone was used in Agents of Shield a few years ago and appeared for about half the season. All the bad guys had one in a couple of the big fight scenes. I had to watch the new Mortal Kombat movie last weekend because a client is considering the license, and the same knife is in there for about 3 seconds. I think the first season of Umbrella Academy was the last show I remember seeing some of my knives used regularly in.
Valkrist wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 6:04 pm Do you patent your designs for the domestic market at least?
I copyright my designs, which is more effective, and less costly than design patents. Design patents are a bit useless as someone only needs to change the design slightly in a knockoff and they become hard to enforce, but enforcement really amount to who has the better lawyer and most money to spend on protection. The knives and swords I design for clients are their property, so I don't protect that stuff myself.
Last edited by Nasnandos on Mon May 10, 2021 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
KRDS

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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I checked and it's too late to make this work with the current Sting production that will ship this year. Maybe it's something UC would consider for 2022.

Here is the rough art I mocked up last year for it. Kind of bland looking, but the real blue blade would look better than this. The blade etch is different from the stock Sting because at the time I was thinking we could correct it to match the prop, like we did with the MC Sting. The standard UC Sting has always had the etch reversed.

Image
KRDS

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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Yes, that looks really good. Of course it's a mockup and not the real thing, but if Kit thinks they could come very close to that, I'm all in, especially if they correct the runes being raised.

Kit, do the current-issue Stings (and possibly that blue one of it gets made) fit on the hooks of the original LOTR plaque from 2003 or has the blade width at the hilt changed in any appreciable way since? I don't have wall space for much and it would be cool if I could swap between Sting versions without changing plaques.
This Space for Rent

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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That's just the standard UC Sting-on-plaque photo with a recolored blade. It was literally just a 20 minute retouch of existing photos to have something to look at during that meeting last year. Had we gone forward with it at the time, I probably would have designed a completely different plaque, or at least a different silk screen design.

I discussed this with the UC folks today. They want to see a sample, so this may happen.
KRDS

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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That's amazing news, Kit. Thanks for listening to us. :cheering:

While I have your ear, would it be possible to - in the process of designing the new plaque - have the mounting screw holes in the back at least be in the exact same placement as the original plaque? This would allow anyone who wants to, to be able to simply and quickly switch plaques without making new wall holes.

On an unrelated topic, I know UC switched to a new type of COA long ago, and that's fine, but many of us, myself included, hate the fact that it comes rolled up tight enough to slide into a keyhole. This is super annoying and makes them virtually useless to display or place in a binder as I do with mine. Anyone you can talk to an convince them to package these in flat like they used to at the old UC?
This Space for Rent

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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That's awesome to hear that they want a sample. I look forward to hearing how it turns out. I too would like the runes reversed like the MC.

As for the COA, I agree with Val. With the new thicker paper and tightly rolled up it takes quite a bit to get it to lay flat. I do roll mine the other way and put it in a binder and it eventually gets there. But, I guess I'd rather have that then folded with a crease in it.

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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Nasnandos wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 5:21 pm ....
Anyway, long story short, last year when we were thinking of simple things we could do for a 20th anniversary LOTR product, the first thing I suggested was a blue colored Sting blade. Someone else suggested a Damascus bladed Anduril or Sting. I ended up thinking, nah, people will think that is tacky. We rejected both ideas. Maybe I should have tossed the idea out to you guys first.
I'm totally ignorant of the subject about which I'm going to ask (and Jash will no doubt be rolling his eyes :rolleye: ) but I do have a few questions:
You mention the Damascus steel.
1) Are you talking about real Damascus steel for a carbon steel blade sword?
2) Are some (or maybe all all?) carbon steel bladed weapons (in the lower cost collectible tier) made of "Damascus" steel by actually etching them to look like the real thing?
3) If etching can be done on a carbon steel blade , can it be done on a stainless steel blade and still result in (more -or -less) realistic Damascus steel look?
I'm assuming that stainless steel blades can't be made as a real Damascus blade but, as I said, I really don't know anything about the process and what materials it can, and cannot, be used on.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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I don't think anyone hates those rolled COAs more than I do. The printing and paper quality was improved on the Eomer helm and Boromir horn COAs, but they were rolled even tighter than the COAs in the previous polresin replicas. I keep all those in a binder, and it was impossible to get those two pressed completely flat. I made a big stink about that last month. There is no room to lay them flat in the polyfoam packing molds, but there is no need to roll them so tight. I suggested they be polybagged flat and taped to the outside of the polyfoam, but I worry they will get bent when they slide them into the corrugated boxes. I have a few ideas to make that work, but I want to see what they come up with.

People have also complained that the sword COA paper has gotten thinner over the past few years and there is ink from the back side bleeding through the front. I know UC had to change paper suppliers because the old parchment paper is no longer available. A few weeks ago I asked if they could use the same paper as they are using for the poly COAs for the swords too. It won't match the older COAs, but at least it won't feel as cheap.
Valkrist wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:29 pm While I have your ear, would it be possible to - in the process of designing the new plaque - have the mounting screw holes in the back at least be in the exact same placement as the original plaque? This would allow anyone who wants to, to be able to simply and quickly switch plaques without making new wall holes..
It's probably going to be the exact same plaque now. There is a chance these could be combined with the Sting run currently being made, and I'm pretty sure all those plaques have been made. This would just be an alternate version of the sword. Maybe we will call it the Blue Steel edition or something similar.
KRDS

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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Deimos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:44 pm 1) Are you talking about real Damascus steel for a carbon steel blade sword?
I was talking not talking about an etched pattern. I was talking about real modern Damascus steel, which is alternating layers of different types of carbon steel. It just did not make much sense to me for LOTR, since these are prop replicas, and that would not be film accurate. I don't think enough of the typical LOTR collectors would have interest in it to make it successful, but I could be wrong.
KRDS

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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Nasnandos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:06 pm
Deimos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 3:44 pm 1) Are you talking about real Damascus steel for a carbon steel blade sword?
I was talking not talking about an etched pattern. I was talking about real modern Damascus steel, which is alternating layers of different types of carbon steel. It just did not make much sense to me for LOTR, since these are prop replicas, and that would not be film accurate. I don't think enough of the typical LOTR collectors would have interest in it to make it successful, but I could be wrong.
Ok, I understand your argument for not doing it , but still, my questions:
Is it or can it be done by etching? If so does it look real or does it look really badly fake(d)?
If it is done by etching on carbon steel blades, can it be done on stainless steel blades?

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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Nasnandos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:32 pm Either steel can be etched with a Damascus pattern. How good or bad it looks really depends on the art.
OK. Thank you. Your answer raises some interesting possibilities....(for later consideration)
Anyway, another question concerning the UC "Fighting Knives of Legolas"....
The yellow "patterned" part of the blades.... was that a "kind of, sort of" way of making them look like [fantasy] Damascus blade?
Because that is how it struck me when I first saw them.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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Deimos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:51 pm Anyway, another question concerning the UC "Fighting Knives of Legolas"....
The yellow "patterned" part of the blades.... was that a "kind of, sort of" way of making them look like [fantasy] Damascus blade?
You would have to ask Daniel Falconer, the designer of that knife. I don't see anything Damascus-like about the etching art though. It's just a decorative Elvish filigree pattern engraved into the steel.
KRDS

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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OK...it was just a similarity (to me) that struck me years ago....I wondered what look/effect the designer was aiming for.

Val,have you seen any good examples (i.e., done really well) of stainless steel and carbon steel "Etched-to-look-like-real-damascus-steel" prop/repro/wallhanger swords?
If so, can you send me the link(s)?

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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Deimos wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 7:26 pm OK...it was just a similarity (to me) that struck me years ago....I wondered what look/effect the designer was aiming for.

Val,have you seen any good examples (i.e., done really well) of stainless steel and carbon steel "Etched-to-look-like-real-damascus-steel" prop/repro/wallhanger swords?
If so, can you send me the link(s)?
Well, you could always ask Dan himself over in his thread over at FoU, though the questions are piling up with him being so busy.

Honestly, I don't think he was going for anything other than what we got: a really cool elven leaf-and-vine etching/engraving, but that's just my non-educated guess. If Elves existed, that's really the sort of thing I would expect to see on their weapons. Damascus feels more... Dwarven?

As for Damascus etchings, no, I'm sorry but I don't think I've ever run across such a thing. I'm assuming you've tried Google? Maybe Kit can show us an example. Sorry, wish I could be of more help. Are you hoping to have something commissioned or do the work yourself?
This Space for Rent

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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Valkrist wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 8:28 pm
As for Damascus etchings, no, I'm sorry but I don't think I've ever run across such a thing. I'm assuming you've tried Google? Maybe Kit can show us an example. Sorry, wish I could be of more help. Are you hoping to have something commissioned or do the work yourself?
No.... I was thinking of having Indy do something, tho'.......
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Seriously, 'NO' to a commission or doing the work my self.
I'm writing a rather lengthy post with some thoughts... I'll put it up here soon. Stay tuned....

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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If you want an example of 'fantasy' etched Damascus, both the Valyrian Steel Longclaw and Ice swords (book versions, not HBO) have stainless blades with a deep etched Damascus pattern. The pattern is large and thick on these, which is what VS and GRRM wanted, but it could have been made thin and finer like real Damascus.
Image



Here are examples of much finer deep etched Damascus patterns. These have a dull black paint wash to simulate the raised carbon look of real Damascus. They have a pattern welded Damascus design, but they art could have been made to look exactly like typical layered Damascus. It all depends on the art.



Image
Image
KRDS

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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Kit, going back to the Blue Sting, are there any dyes that can be used reliably on steel that have phosphorescent properties? Essentially, the kind of stuff that becomes actively luminescent in the dark, but only after absorbing light beforehand. I don't know it if the effect would be consistent throughout the blade, not bright enough, too bright, or look just plain tacky. Is this something that's been considered, or do you think it wouldn't work? I'm more than happy to just get a blue sting, but had a moment of thinking "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if...?"
This Space for Rent

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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N2darkness wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 5:12 am How is that process achieved in production that isn't crazy labor extensive? Applying a stencil and acid etching would be costly I would think, laser etching would cheaper and easier.

Is all the engravings on the LOTR swords done the same way?
The LOTR blades are deep etched using a stencil and electro chemical process to remove the steel. It is very labor intensive and expensive, but not as costly as true laser engraving.

Laser engraving can be used for some things, but it requires many passes to get the same depth and is not as cost effective as chemical etching for the large areas we need. The surface also has to be flat to get a consistent depth with most laser engravers, but blades are not flat. There are expensive industrial lasers that can do it, but again, not as cost effective as chemical etching.
KRDS

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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First, most of the regulars here know how very un-enamoured I am of those run-of-the-mill (run-of the-forge?) movie swords that (to use Val’s phrase ) Aragorn found rusting in a ditch and presented to the Hobbits. So much so, that I within 2 months of buying the non-MC Sam’s Sword, I sold it to Guardian Wolf (I think it was GW).

Second, I didn’t know about faking Damascus steel by etching, or that clear coat could be tinted.
Actually the latter should have occurred to me, but I am a bit slow sometimes (more-so the older I get :roll: ).

Third, not a few of you reading this will recognize this passage:

“For each of the hobbits [Bombadil] chose a dagger, long, leaf-shaped, and keen, of marvellous workmanship, damasked with serpent-forms in red and gold. They gleamed as he drew them from their black sheaths, wrought of some strange metal, light and strong, and set with many fiery stones. Whether by some virtue in these sheaths or because of the spell that lay on the mound, the blades seemed untouched by time, unrusted, sharp, glittering in the sun.
… Then he told them that these blades were forged many long years ago by Men of Westernesse…”.


Fourth, I know what I am about to discuss would not be at all feasible for UC or anyone else who makes sword props because most people haven’t read the LOTR, and are only interested in movie props. There would be no market for the sword props I am thinking about. (And I would not even give a nano-second of thought to approaching Indy with this, for too many reasons as you all well know…).

So…. The swords of Westernesse as described in FOTR can be made. The blades are like Sting or Sam’s sword (leaf-bladed), the “damasked” design can be etched (damasked=Damascene= Damascus steel [look]), and then tinted red and gold, maybe even on a gradient , if that can be done with clear coat. Alternately, the blades can be made of real Damascus steel is also a consideration and could still be clear-coat tinted. **

The design of the grips/hilts/pommels is, at the moment, wide open. But those parts still would have to reflect weapon designs of the Second(?) Age.
The sheaths are straight forward: black metal set with gemstones (Swarovski flatbacks, no doubt :laugh: ) .

Now for a little daydreaming….let’s say in Bezos’ ME stories there are men of Westernesse who are carrying , along with their massive 2- handed swords, daggers; daggers that are “long, leaf-shaped, and keen, of marvellous workmanship, damasked with serpent-forms in red and gold”. Moreover, these daggers are in “black sheaths, wrought of some strange metal, light and strong, and set with many fiery stones.” And they are all different --much as the big swords are all different-- but there are at least 4 different designs.

So the daggers are made for the show and then repro’d (by UC?) and marketed as collectibles from Bezos ME series. Even the COA (all rolled up tight, thinner than a pencil) states they are from the Bezos ME series.

But we know differently *wink-wink*… and (tossing aside the still rolled up COA) we finally get the real (book accurate) Hobbit swords.

Please don’t start guffawing…you’ll wake me from my dreaming.

**It would not be quite book accurate as the actual damascus pattern would not be in either gold or red, but it would be something a lot better than the "rusty swords found in a ditch" .
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"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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Valkrist wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 5:48 am Kit, going back to the Blue Sting, are there any dyes that can be used reliably on steel that have phosphorescent properties? Essentially, the kind of stuff that becomes actively luminescent in the dark, but only after absorbing light beforehand. I don't know it if the effect would be consistent throughout the blade, not bright enough, too bright, or look just plain tacky. Is this something that's been considered, or do you think it wouldn't work? I'm more than happy to just get a blue sting, but had a moment of thinking "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if...?"
I'm sure there are phosphorescent dyes, but steel cannot be permanently 'dyed'.

I had a brief thought of using a UV reactive clear paint mixed with the transparent blue paint, but that would require a lot of testing to see if it would even work. I also doubt we could get the coloring under UV light and daylight to both look right.
KRDS

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

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Magneticone wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 12:48 am That's quite alright Jash , it's not really a sword anyway . . .
More of a letter opener :laugh: :thumbs_up
HAHAH that just made my day, thank you :)

WOW. After the small comment about liking N2's idea of a Blue Bladed Sting, I was NOT expecting this reaction! :D

I also vote for a new, fancier plaque. Especially if this were to be a Special Release of some sorts. But if that is too late, maybe a small brass plaque that can be glued onto the current wall plaque? This doesn't have to be a limited edition, but could possibly go the route of Franklin Mint - and UC can do a Blue Sting Anniversary limited production run (until end of the Anniversary Year, so Dec 2021)....? And serialized like Isildur or Sam's sword?

Just throwing this out there - the initial plan was a 20th Anniversary Sword for the opening of FOTR. Butttt UC could do 20th Anniversary for the end of the story / ROTK in 2023... That's if UC still wanted a special Anniversary Sword to mark the occasion.

I really hope this comes to fruition - Maybe after I purchase this new Blue Sting, Val will stop threatening me with the "Clubbing"/Ban emoji lol.

@Deimos - no eye rolling here. The term and idea of "Damascus" is a complicated one. It still confuses newer sword collectors, and starts many debates. So no judgement :) I really like your idea of "Book Version" weapons. Who knows, maybe if UC ever runs out of ideas for Movie Replicas, they could give it a try. It worked well for Valyrian Steel - where many fans prefer some of the Book Versions over the TV replicas. So, here's to dreaming!
"Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum!"

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

4441
Kit, do you foresee that this new Sting would be a Limited Edition piece?

Come to think of it, what is the criteria that UC has used in the past in order to determine if an item is LE or not? Basically seems to run along the lines of anything that is not a metal blade becomes a limited item. Obviously there have been some exceptions, but I guess longterm demand is the main determining factor?
This Space for Rent

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

4442
No idea on Sting. That discussion probably won't happen until we actually have a sample in hand.

Generally, if a company knows a certain item is going to be very costly, and/or it is is expected there will only be a small group of collectors that will have a high interest in a certain item, it is limited to encourage sales. People tend to buy faster when they know or think an item is not going to be around long, as we all know. In some cases when you expect only a certain number of sales, it is good practice, but it's really just a marketing tool for most companies. Obviously it can be be a real investment for collectors, or hoarders as well, if done right.

United's criteria for LOTR limited editions has varied over the years. At the old UC we knew about half of the things we wanted to make should be limited editions, because we had to meet certain sales numbers guaranteed in the license contract period, and we expected the active life of the license would only be 5-6 years. Well, I didn't think that, but that was a typical lifespan for a license. Unfortunately, they did not listen to me on the first limited edition, set the quantity too low and rolled it out wrong, then over reacted on later limited editions and set most of them so high they may as well not have been limited.

I'm not exactly sure of the criteria for which items are limited at the current UC, as they have not done very many. I know it has been a very tricky thing to do over the years. There are so many factors to consider that no matter what you do, someone is not going to be happy. If I had my way, there would be no limited editions, period.
KRDS

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

4443
For those of you that wanted a plain LOTR wood helmet stand to make all of your helm replicas match, I think you may be getting your wish. A new run of metal helms and stands is being made, and I was asked to work up a generic logo shield for a separate run of those stands that will be sold as a stand-alone product. It will be identical to the old UC helm stands, but with a non character specific LOTR shield.
KRDS

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

4444
Nasnandos wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 4:42 am For those of you that wanted a plain LOTR wood helmet stand to make all of your helm replicas match, I think you may be getting your wish. A new run of metal helms and stands is being made, and I was asked to work up a generic logo shield for a separate run of those stands that will be sold as a stand-alone product. It will be identical to the old UC helm stands, but with a non character specific LOTR shield.
That is awesome! I had intended to make my own using a Guthwine and Herugrim plaque. I have often thought that UC could save some money by just using the plaques as stand bases with the Rohirrim helmets for those who like the wooden stands.
Image

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

4449
It won't be braided leather, that's for sure. Not for a production sword. It will likely be the same grip tooling, but I just want to improve the way it looks, and possibly change to a harder material. The grip on the one I got from production looked like a cheap Hong Kong toy from the 1970s.

The color was not right and the dark paint wash they applied in production was terrible. I think they can do a far better job now.
KRDS

Re: United Cutlery's - The Hobbit - Movie Props!

4450
Nasnandos wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 3:05 am It looks like UC is considering reissuing the Isildur sword. That's one of the few LOTR swords that only had one run. It was the first sword made in their China sword factory also, so it never really matched the rest of the line. The blade was polished too much and they botched up the grip. If it happens, I'm going to see if I can get those things improved.
That is awesome news! I have come close several times to finding one, one occasion losing out by 30 seconds because the seller saw someone else's message first. So having an improved version would be awesome!
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