Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

51
They sometimes show the Enterprise going upside down... like when they beamed Data and Picard to the ship after escaping from the Scimitar... the enterprise went upside down and around and went to warp.

but yea, it would look retarded if ships were flying around upside down stuff :)
Last edited by BladeCollector on Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: forgot something
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

52
The episode to which you refer was the 1st episode of the 5th season, and it was the resolution of the 4th season cliffhanger, involving the Duras sisters and the Klingon civil war. It was called Redemption, Part 2. The Federation set up the tachyon grid as an embargo to keep the Romulans out of the Klingon Empire, to keep them from supplying the Duras faction.

Star Trek does often conveniently forget that space is three-dimensional, except when it serves a plot point, as in ST II. Regarding the grid in TNG, I don't remember how big it was supposed to be, but you might hypothesize that it was so big that in the time it would take the Romulans to go around it, the war would be lost.

Tonight I watched what was possibly the worst episode of any Star Trek ever, and certainly the worst episode of TOS. I refer, of course, to "The Way to Eden," aka Space Hippies. As awful as it is, it was made doubly so by the music. All those jam sessions really date the show in a way pastel sets and velour uniforms could only dream of. It's one of many "jewels" that make this 3rd season box almost physically painful. I don't know that I'd ever really realized before how lame it was in comparison to seasons 1 and 2. What made Shatner decide that doing a remake of "The Way to Eden" as a movie (ST V, because that's really what it boiled down to), I cannot imagine. I think he probably didn't realize he was doing a remake.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

53
Thanks... it was starting to bother me that i couldnt remember which episode it was.speaking of star trek V... what were they thinking, trying to find god.... i dont wanna get into a religious debate, but searching for god, to me, would upset alot of people... i am christian, i didnt get upset, because i know its a movie, but some people get highly offended in those types of god references... but there are some funny parts in ST V... especially when Kirk says "Excuse me... Excuse me... I just wanted to ask a question. What does God need with a starship?"
or
"God": You doubt me?
Kirk: I seek proof.
McCoy: Jim, you don't ask the Almighty for His I.D.
or
Kirk: I ordered you to defend your ship!
Spock: You ordered me to kill my brother.
Kirk: The man may be a fellow Vulcan, but that doesn't mean...
Spock: No, you do not understand. Sybok is also a son of Sarek.
Kirk: You mean he's your BROTHER brother?
Spock: [nods]
Kirk: You made that up.
Spock: I did not.
Kirk: You did too. Sybok couldn't possibly be your brother because I happen to know for a fact you don't HAVE a brother.
Spock: Technically, you are correct. I do not have a brother.
Kirk: There, you see? See?
Spock: I have a half-brother.
Kirk: ...I gotta sit down.

there is anotherone between spock and kirk, but it has some harsh language about kirk wanting to knock spock down on his bottom side.
Kirk: Engine room!
Scotty: Scotty here.
Kirk: We'll need all the power you can muster, mister.
Scotty: Don't you worry, Captain. We'll beat those Klingon devils, even if I have to get out and push.
Kirk: I hope it won't come to that, Mr. Scott.

those are some of my favorite quotes from ST V
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

54
BladeCollector wrote:Thanks... it was starting to bother me that i couldnt remember which episode it was.speaking of star trek V... what were they thinking, trying to find god.... i dont wanna get into a religious debate, but searching for god, to me, would upset alot of people... i am christian, i didnt get upset, because i know its a movie, but some people get highly offended in those types of god references

I don't know what they were thinking, either. Somebody once said that a good gauge of whether it was a good story idea is to envision how its description in TV Guide would sound: "In tonight's episode, the crew of the Enterprise goes in seach of God." You can imagine all the eye-rolling over that one. :rolleyes_ Beyond the offense factor, to me it's a very silly idea because it's hard to imagine God being in a specific place in 3-dimensional space, rather than on an alternate plane of existence.


Kirk: There, you see? See?
Spock: I have a half-brother.
Kirk: ...I gotta sit down.

I don't know if you realized it or not, but what Kirk sits on is...a toilet. It's not obvious, because the signs that say things like "Do not use while in Space Dock" are too small to read on the screen, but if you look carefully before he sits down, you'll see a line running around the edge of it, which is the seam between the lid and the rest of it. Apparently it had been a running joke for years that there were no toilets on the Enterprise, because they'd never shown one. I think that's an ill-founded joke, because in those days certainly, you didn't see toilets on any TV shows (except toilet bowl cleaner commercials). So, Shatner was determined to put a toilet on the Enterprise, and he did. I don't know if a higher power intervened in the design to make it less obvious, so as to blunt the silliness of it all or what, but that is what Kirk plops onto.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

55
Olorin1 wrote: I don't know if you realized it or not, but what Kirk sits on is...a toilet. It's not obvious, because the signs that say things like "Do not use while in Space Dock" are too small to read on the screen, but if you look carefully before he sits down, you'll see a line running around the edge of it, which is the seam between the lid and the rest of it. .

i never noticed... i'll be on the lookout next time i watch it :)
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

56
What did everyone think about this past 3-part story arc that concluded this week on Enterprise. I have to say that I enjoyed it. I liked seeing the Andorian homeworld, and we've seen 4 of the founding members of the Federation.

I liked the ships that could take the form of other ships, which could cause some controversy (the romulans blowing up another ship disguised as the Enterprise). they are sticking with continuity.. being that they still havent seen a Romulan.

I am still a little confused with the Remans... I didnt think they walked around Romulus freely, I thought they were slaves in mines, but they didnt go into any e xp lanations, so we can just think they were still secret guards for that Senator.

I'm beginning to really love the Shran character, Jeffrey Combs is kicking but in this role just like he did with Weyoun.

A weird but cool moment was when Trip and Malcolm jumped out of the ship and were just floating in space waiting for Enterprise to come pick them up.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

57
BladeCollector wrote:What did everyone think about this past 3-part story arc that concluded this week on Enterprise. I have to say that I enjoyed it. I liked seeing the Andorian homeworld, and we've seen 4 of the founding members of the Federation.


On the whole, I liked it. I thought it was a little farfetched that the drone ships could be operated remotely from Romulus with no time lag. Even subspace communications have a delay if you're far enough away. I guess that's where the telepathy comes in. Also, they may have introduced a continuity error with the Romulans, not in having seen them, which they've scrupulously avoided doing, but TOS "Balance of Terror" established that the Romulans didn't have warp drive in Kirk's time. That's a really unsupportable notion in the context of how far things are from each other, and how the Romulans could never have established an empire without it, but there it is, nonetheless. I guess we have to rationalize it that those particular birds of prey in Balance of Terror, with so much of their energy devoted to that plasma superweapon, weren't warp-capable, at least not with the weapon on line (they'd still need warp to get from their base to the Federation's Neutral Zone outposts). I think this is something that has wisely been ignored by the other Star Trek series.

I am still a little confused with the Remans... I didnt think they walked around Romulus freely, I thought they were slaves in mines, but they didnt go into any e xp lanations, so we can just think they were still secret guards for that Senator.
I don't think they're exclusively confined to the mines. They're obviously used for dirty work, and anywhere their fearsome appearance would be an asset. Nemesis mentioned that they were used extensively in the Dominion War.

A weird but cool moment was when Trip and Malcolm jumped out of the ship and were just floating in space waiting for Enterprise to come pick them up.

That reminded me a lot of when Paris and Torres had to abandon shuttle and wait for Voyager to pick them up. That one was resolved in a visually cool way, with the approaching Voyager first seen as a reflection in Torres' faceplate.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

58
Now that you mention it... I do remember them saying the Remans were used in the Dominion war... they were probably more or less shock troops... like Romulan Jem'Hadar (besides being bred). Romulans always seemed to be the type that likes conflict and wars, but dont like to get their hands dirty so to speak, so the Remans do the dirty work.

Remans I guess, could have been used back in the Federation-Romulan war, since noone saw the Romulans, they could have been on the Romulan ships.

You do bring up an interesting point about controlling the ship without any time delay what-so-ever.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

59
Yesterday I watched DS9 Season 7 episode "Take me out to the holo-suite"... its when Sisko and co. play a baseball game against a team of all very pompous Vulcans. I love this episode, especially Worfs chattering... instead of "Hey batter batter batter"... Worf says "Death to the opposition!!!" or when the Vulcan doesnt tag home and Nog asks what to do, Worf says "Find him and kill him!"....

anyway... while watching, after the Vulcan captain challenged Sisko to the game, he tells the senior staff to meet him in the Wardroom... ok, why is Ensign Nog there, he may be an important character, but he isnt a senior staff member... Senior staff doesnt necessarily coincide with rank... Cheif O'brien is actually lower ranking than Rom, but he is head of operations, which makes him a department head so to speak, and Ezri is lower in rank than the others being a Lt. j.g., but she is Stations Counselor... anyway, Rom isnt head of nothing, he is just an Ensign.. I guess someone say "Hey Rom, wanna come along"

Another thing about this episode... was almost the blatant racism the Vulcans had toward Humans and other "emotionally challanged" species. The ship they served on was ONLY vulcan, you would think by this time, Vulcans and Humans would be getting along great, and you would also think that the Federation wouldnt have an Vulcan Only starship.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

60
I liked that episode pretty well, even though I hate sports. I hadn't thought about the Nog issue. I think here "senior staff" means "senior staff plus anybody who's becoming popular on the show and needs to be seen."

What I thought was a little unrealistic about it is when the Vulcan captain gets peeved at the end and grabs Odo's arm. Vulcans are supposedly very averse to physical contact, partly due to its inappropriateness and also probably due to the fact that they are touch-telepaths. However, the whole episode ultimately hinges around that point, so you either shrug it off and like it, or don't and hate the episode.

Regarding the all-Vulcan ship issue, imagine that more than anything else, that was a nod to TOS' "Immunity Sydrome" episode, where it's established that the Intrepid has an all-Vulcan crew. Beyond that, perhaps there are reasons other than racism and/or Vulcan smugness to have a one-species ship. Perhaps having all those telepathic minds together gives the crew special abilities. Perhaps it was a condition of Vulcan joining the Federation and Starfleet that in exchange for giving up their own military, they could have a few all-Vulcan ships.

When you get right down to it, the only shows that ever really did right by the Vulcans were TOS and Voyager, because they had a regular cast member Vulcan and could devote the time they needed. In DS9 and TNG, it was an extreme rarity that they had a Vulcan character, and they were seldom more than a token appearance. Worse still, in DS9, they made them into terrorists or something. I think they had Vulcan gun runners supplying the Maquis or something like that, and wasn't a Vulcan involved in that transporter/rifle hybrid murder mystery?

Enterprise certainly took the Vulcans in another direction, making them nefarious and even snobbier. They rectified that this season with the Vulcan story arc; I still haven't decided how much I buy into it as an e xp lanation. At least they tried, however.

Speaking of e xp lanations, the "why don't Kirk-era Klingons have bumpy heads when all the rest do?" story arc starts Friday.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

61
I'm excited about how they do the Klingon forehead ridge "controversy".

About the Vulcans in my last post, i didnt mean to sound like i thought the Vulcans were racist, I just thought that in this particular episode they were presented that way. Another thing that about the Vulcans that sometimes gets a little mixed up... especially in the baseball game episode, is sometimes how it seems the Vulcans are showing emotion, or having emotions, when they arent supposed to... The vulcan captain was clearly agitated and upset that the "emotionally challanged" people were celebrating a false victory.

Speaking of Vulcans, have they ever said if controlling their emotions is hard, or is just a way of life. I was just wondering because when T'Pol's mother died, she cried. This just lead me to believe that Vulcan emotions are something that they have to consciously keep in check, and can sometimes be very difficult.

I am also wondering what is gonna happen with Trip too, he asked for a transfer is the last episode.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

62
BladeCollector wrote:About the Vulcans in my last post, i didnt mean to sound like i thought the Vulcans were racist, I just thought that in this particular episode they were presented that way. Another thing that about the Vulcans that sometimes gets a little mixed up... especially in the baseball game episode, is sometimes how it seems the Vulcans are showing emotion, or having emotions, when they arent supposed to... The vulcan captain was clearly agitated and upset that the "emotionally challanged" people were celebrating a false victory.

That's why I feel most of the series never got the Vulcans right.
Speaking of Vulcans, have they ever said if controlling their emotions is hard, or is just a way of life. I was just wondering because when T'Pol's mother died, she cried. This just lead me to believe that Vulcan emotions are something that they have to consciously keep in check, and can sometimes be very difficult.

I think that depends on the particular Vulcan.
I am also wondering what is gonna happen with Trip too, he asked for a transfer is the last episode.

This is a moot point, because the show is ending anyway, but I wouldn't be upset at all if Trip were not on it. He's too whiney.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

63
Olorin1 wrote: This is a moot point, because the show is ending anyway, but I wouldn't be upset at all if Trip were not on it. He's too whiney.

Well yea, the show is ending, but the Star Trek universe continues.. i kinda like Trip, but yes, he can be a little whiney
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

67
I really liked this week's episode of Enterprise, e xp laining the old Klingon forehead controversy. I thought it was pretty clever, and overall the episode really tied in a lot of things. Just one more example of why I HATE it that this show's been cancelled!
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

69
Another thing... it looks like there could be some Section 31 back in that day... i know alot of people dont like Section 31 because it goes against everything starfleet stands for, but I always say, there is always going to be corruption (sadly) even in the most perfect societies.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

70
I seem to remember that DS9 established that Section 31 was a very old organization, dating from the earliest days of Starfleet. I can't find the reference on the ST website, and my reference books are too old. BUt in any case, yes, I thought it was pretty obviously supposed to be Section 31. I felt really sorry for Malcom. He was nearly in tears.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

71
One of the things I seem to remember most clearly about the origins of Section 31 was the statement made by someone (Sloan, I think) that they had been around for close to a hundred years. That made me think immediately that Section 31 was taking shape right around Kirk's time. If what Sloan said is true, then the whole thing comes much later than Archer's time, but I have no way of verifying this for sure right now.

Here's something interesting: Dark Horizons has a TV-Guide style episode listing for the final shows of Enterprise. With the exception of the three very last shows for this final season, all others are given a brief synopsis, including the other four shows between now and those final three. Of those four, two are a two-parter titled In a Mirror Darkly, Part I and II.

For the first part, this is what it says:

18. "In a Mirror Darkly, Part I"
In the mirror universe, Commander Archer mutinies against Captain Forrest in order to capture a future Earth ship found in Tholian space.Air Date:April 15th 2005


And for the second part:

19. "In a Mirror Darkly, Part II"
In the mirror universe, Archer commandeers the 23rd-century Defiant from the Tholians and uses it in a nefarious power grab.Air Date:April 22nd 2005


My reaction to this was somewhat mixed. For some reason I can't fully e xp lain, Mirror Universe episodes annoy the crap out of me... almost as much as Holodeck episodes. I think DS9 got a little too carried away with the concept introduced by the excellent and original TOS episode "Mirror, Mirror" and turned it into a parody that seemed to provide little purpose or course for the show other than to allow the actors to step out of character. Anyhow, the fact that Enterprise has now also chosen to waste two final precious episodes on an alternate universe that likely will do little to advance the storyline is something that doesn't sit well with me.

However, what I do like is the obvious tie-in to the TOS episode "The Tholian Web." In what I hope will be a plausible e xp lanation, not only does the USS Defiant that Kirk boarded somehow end up in the Mirror Universe, it will also apparently travel back in time. I can't wait to see how they will show this ship, although I e xp ect it will be much like the way they showed Kirk's Enterprise in DS9, ie. CGI. It will also be interesting to see if the Defiant's sudden appearance in the Mirror Universe will influence the ship design of the Terran Empire, or if by the end of the show, the Defiant will be lost or destroyed, rendering the question moot. It seems unlikely the ship will stick around because if so, then the Empire should have been far more advanced by the time Kirk encouters them a century later.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

72
There were some holodeck episodes that i absolutely loved. they kinda gave a nice lighthearted break from some of the main stuff going on.... especially the DS9 dominion war 5 1/2 season story arc. especially the episode on Spike TV today... "Bada Bing, Bada Bang" I love this episode, actually I love the Vic Fontaine character. I also like "Take me out to the holosuite"... but there are some holosuit episodes that i dont really care for, like when Julian plays James Bond.


I liked some of the DS9 mirror universe episodes. The way they set it up was that alot of people from both sides knew about each other and knew about another universe, and then they figured how to get back and forth. Yea, some were kinda cheesey, but others were pretty cool. A lot of people dont like crossovers between series, because they want them to stand alone and not depend on each other, but I love crossovers, I think they should have had more between DS9 and TNG characters. Iknow the enterprise was dealing with the borg basically during the time of the Dominion War, but how do you have a war, and a massive force like the Dominion and not even ever mention the flagship of the federation.

Another thing on the mirror universe, its funny how the DS9 characters always ran into the DS9 characters, but that deals with crossovers again, you would think there would be an alternate Picard or Riker and so forth. but i guess that will never happen. unless they make my movie idea into a movie and have a huge TNG/DS9/Voyager crossover trilogy movie:thumbsup: :jumping: .. hey we can all dream cant we?
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

73
I think the Holodeck episodes that annoyed me most were from TNG and Voyager. Picard as Dixon Hill and Janeway as some governess in a Victorian house never sparked my interest. Ditto for Bashir as James Bond. If I tune in to watch Star Trek, that is what I want to see: Sci-fi. If want those other kinds of stories or shows, I can tune in to a dozen other channels. I too realize that they were meant at times to provide light-hearted breaks and to allow the cast to strecth their acting legs a little, but overall I think they ended up detracting more from the overall e xp erience of the series than add to it. The Holodeck also became an all too-convenient plot device. How many times did the damn thing break down and trap someone, or crewman of the week becomes enamoured of holo-character #234-R4X?

Anyhow, I'm glad there is no Holodeck on Enterprise (or TOS,) and I find myself looking forward to this Mirror universe two-parter. If they remain consistent to the level of quality of this season thus far, this could prove to be a winner. I do hope however that there is no obvious crossover with the normal universe, otherwise another continuity error will rear its ugly head.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

74
Dixon Hill got kinda annoying, but I remember in the 1st or 2nd season, Data was in there and Picard got shot and the Dr needed light (thats why i cant remember if it was 1 or 2, cant remember if it was Pulaski or Crusher) and Data grabbed a lamp and it came unplugged and he looked at it with the funniest look at tried to figure it out, and someone else plugged it back in, and he had another "eureka" moment look on his face, it was classic. But that one moment didnt make up for ALL of the Dixon Hill eps. I did like how they put the program in First Contact, it was one of those continuity treats for the series watcher to catch it in the movie.

I woulda liked to have seen Julian and O'Briens Alamo holosuite or something like that, just once, it would have been hilarious.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

75
The Star Trek thread returns to life!

My least favorite types of episodes, in no particular order: Data runs amuck (TNG), the Doctor runs amuck (VOY), the Holodeck runs amuck (all 24th century series). If these things were all as unreliable as they seem to be, putting the crew in peril at least once a year, they'd all be shut down, sentient AI or not.

The concept of the Mirror Universe was cool (and well executed on TOS), and the first DS9 episode that featured it was good, because it showed the likely outcome of alt-Spock's rebellion: the conquest of humanity by more aggressive empires. However, that's where it ends. What I can't buy are the same characters existing in both universes, especially centuries after divergence points that should have altered the space time continuum so much that characters' parents would never have been born, let alone met and conceived the character.

As far as Enterprise, we don't know whether it will be the real universe Defiant that travels back in time, or an alt-universe Defiant that travels in time. The mere existence of the alt-universe at this time re-raises the question: what divergence point created the mirror universe? I don't think that's ever been answered in a canonical fashion (by an episode). One of Shatner's novels presents the theory that the interference of the Borg at the time of First Contact produced a humanity that was xenophobic and therefore viciously aggressive, but that was just a theory in that book.

Dixon Hill? Really only one episode centered around him, and that was "The Big Goodbye" from TNG Season 1. That episode is considered a TNG classic. I like it ok, though it's not one of my faves. It does stand out above most of the first season episodes, though. Second season, Dix was just a means for Picard to try to dodge Lwaxana Troi, and wasn't really a major part of the episode. The other episode involving him (and Guinan), I can't remember anything about. Again, I think it was not the core of the plot.

I kind of enjoyed the Bashir as Bond episodes, because they seemed to do such a good job of recreating the look and feel of the older Bond movies. Not that that should necessarily be part of ST, but they did a good job.

Something that aggravates me about ST episodes involving holodeck stories and AI are its inability to determine once and for all that AI is life, with all the privileges thereto appertaining. Data had to win his rights, his daughter had to earn her right to be recognized as a life form, the Doctor had to, yadda yadda yadda. Doesn't Star Fleet ever write anything down?

Another thing that aggravated me about the Holodeck was "Holodeck matter," in that it couldn't exist outside the holodeck. Why didn't it just use replicator technology, which obviously produces things that do exist outside the replicator?
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

77
Regarding the Defiant situation, I think it is more likely that it is the real universe Defiant for two reasons: firstly, I'm not sure if events in both universes would parallel each other so much to the extent that both Defiants would be lost under the same circumstances. I know in the original "Mirror, Mirror" episode both crews were beaming up from the mission to Halkan, but I think the similarity of events here can easily be e xp lained away as mere convenience of plot rather than an implication that events are so literally mirrored in both universes. Recall that some crewmembers on the mirror Enterprise held different posts than their counterparts, so there were other, more subtle differences besides the bigger obvious ones. Secondly, if events are in fact paralleled and if it is indeed a mirror version of the Defiant that goes back in time, then would it not follow that the real universe's Defiant also went back in time and appeared in our Archer's timeline? I don't think the writers of the show could be so dumb as to overlook something that obvious, but sillier things have happened.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

78
This one doesnt really have anything to do with Star Trek the show, but what do you think the most realistic or unrealistic peice of technology, or what do you think is the coolest piece of technology. i know some people say nothing in star trek is possible (i.e. warp drive, and so forth) and others say everything is possible.

i always thought the transporter is the least realistic, its cool, but i never understood the concept of dematerializing someone down to the molecular level and beaming them somewhere else and putting them back together.

other than warp drive and artificial gravity and the whole deep space travel (which i wish i could do, i'd join starfleet :) ) i always liked the holodeck, it would be cool to have one. and i like the computer, wouldnt it be nice just to talk to a computer and have it do stuff for you... oh yea, and the replicators are nice too, never have to leave the house for food, or anything else for that matter.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

79
Valkrist wrote:Regarding the Defiant situation, I think it is more likely that it is the real universe Defiant for two reasons: firstly, I'm not sure if events in both universes would parallel each other so much to the extent that both Defiants would be lost under the same circumstances. I know in the original "Mirror, Mirror" episode both crews were beaming up from the mission to Halkan, but I think the similarity of events here can easily be e xp lained away as mere convenience of plot rather than an implication that events are so literally mirrored in both universes. Recall that some crewmembers on the mirror Enterprise held different posts than their counterparts, so there were other, more subtle differences besides the bigger obvious ones. Secondly, if events are in fact paralleled and if it is indeed a mirror version of the Defiant that goes back in time, then would it not follow that the real universe's Defiant also went back in time and appeared in our Archer's timeline? I don't think the writers of the show could be so dumb as to overlook something that obvious, but sillier things have happened.

Your theory makes sense, but remember that logic doesn't always hold sway in ST stories (how ironic!). Remember my point about the extremes they've taken the mirror stories to: the very existence of parallel characters like alt-Sisko, et al, after a hundred years of continued divergence. They need to come up with a theory about some linkage between the two universes that causes on-going mirroring, and not just a single divergence event, with universes developing differently after that.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

80
BladeCollector wrote:This one doesnt really have anything to do with Star Trek the show, but what do you think the most realistic or unrealistic peice of technology, or what do you think is the coolest piece of technology.

I think the proper term you're looking for is Treknology.

The USAF didn't think the transporter was unfeasible--they paid some company in Vegas to research its feasibility (which I posted on in this thread a week or two ago). Roddenberry came up w/the transporter idea because TOS didn't have the budget or effects technology to show the ship landing on a planet each week, so the transporter was born.

In the 60s, pretty much everything on Trek looked impossible. However today we have communicators (cell phones) and those little square computer data storage doodads (floppies). Medical imaging isn't quite to Trek levels yet, but by the 24th century, I'm sure it will surpass what's portrayed on Trek. (Unless we have a nuclear war to reset the clock, much as the ST timeline did.) I think if there's a need and/or market for something, eventually it will appear. A lot of what we take for granted today developed out of the Apollo program. If anyone can ever develop the unified field theory, antigravity and forcefields will be right around the corner, enabling artificial gravity and holodecks. Personally I don't think I'd ever trust a transporter, and since I have no desire to go into space, warp drive wouldn't be much use to me. However, I'd love to have a replicator. Just come home from work in the evening, tell it what I want, and there it is! Also, a phaser would be cool. There are people at work that need a good stunning on a regular basis.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

81
I guess when it comes to alternate characters... they could just simply say that it is an alternate universe.... meaning everyone is the same in both universes, its just alternate realities... i know that is a chicken$#%$# e xp lanation, but it basically e xp lains it... but an argument against that would be that in the alt-univerise, Quark, Rom, Brunt, Sisco etc. are all dead but they arent in the real universe. i liked the majority of the alt-universe stories, but i dont understand how Vic Fontaine is a hologram, but he was a real person in the alt-universe, i guess it would be impossible to have no inconsistencies.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

82
Well, as clearly demonstrated by the Mirror universe stories and related implausibilities, Star Trek has a definite tendency to take a good concept and then ruin it by beating it to death by taking things too far and too long.

Speaking of the Mirror universe, anyone here a comic book fan? I used to collect the very first Star Trek series put out by DC Comics twenty years ago. The series began right after the events in ST II, and after the Enterprise is destroyed during ST III, Kirk and the gang eventually get command of the Excelsior. A couple of issues later, they run into their Mirror universe counterparts who promptly gain control of the new ship and imprison the crew. I still have those comics somewhere but the details of the stories escape me, but I do recall them being lots of fun. :p

As for Treknology that I find most realistic, I think the forcefields and phasers would have to be it as I don't think we are too far away from developing something similar. Warp drive is a theoretic impossibility unless we find a way around Einstein's laws... and I don't think that is going to happen. The concept of travel via wormholes however does seem to hold some promise among scientists today. The replicator may also be possible someday because it does not create things out of nothingness. It has been shown that there is base matter that it reconstitutes into that which is desired. It may not produce something as tasty as what we see on the shows, but it might be accomplished yet. The transporter is the one piece of tech that I find to be as uber-cool as I find frightening. Like Olorin, I don't think I would ever trust the thing, but it would certainly be cool if we could develop something like it someday. The theory behind it does appear to have some merit since, as has been pointed out, there are some folks out there that think we may yet crack this one. The process of reassembling someone at the destination would not be too unlike that of the replicator process. The greater problem lies in reducing the person to base molecules in the first place. The question after that is (and this has been touched on in the shows,) is the person 'killed' and 'reborn' each time he enters the transporter? Would such techonology even be ethical to use?

Lastly, I think something like the holodeck is definitely workable, but probably not to the extent that we see in the show. Holograms and virtual reality are possible today, but to hone them to the extent that one can interact with them as physically as shown is not very likely.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

83
I think all the technology is possible, even warp drive. we arent talking about tomorrow, but like 400 years from now, who the heck knows what will be going on then. Einsteins laws probably wont be worth nothing that far in the future. While Stephen Hawking was guest starring on Trek (TNG) he saw the warp drive in the engineering room (during a tour of the sets) and said "I'm working on that"

As far as someone being killed and reborn each time going through the transporter, i've never looked at it like that... that episode with Barclay having his fear, showed him conscious during the transporter process, so I always thought you were concious, and by being concious wouldnt one be alive? I guess thats something up for some philosophical debate.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

84
I beg to differ on the validity of current day physics. Take the law of gravity, for example. Sure Newton only came upon it very late in our history considering how long humans have been around, but that doesn't mean the law of gravity only came into effect once Newton validated it with his discovery! It has always been there. The same follows for Einstein's theory of relativity. We can apply names and formulas to the laws of physics, but we cannot alter them because those are the rules of the universe, not ours.

I don't discount the very real possibility that there are things out there that we have yet to discover, but what is, is.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

87
Gosh, what a great debate on Einstein. Someone once said (and believe me, I haven't tried to verify this), that essentially his law only says you can't travel at the speed of light. It doesn't say you can't travel faster. Thus the trick would be to exceed it without equalling it momentarily. Hence all the various types of FTL drives in scifi.

Regarding the transporter, James Blish (who wrote the novelizations of the TOS episodes) once wrote a ST novel called "Spock Must Die!" which I recall being very good (Blish was a great writer). In it, McCoy has an ethical quandary over the transporter because the way it's e xp lained in the book is that what it does is create a duplicate person at the destination--and the original is disintegrated. His question was, does the soul make the crossing? When they finally got around to e xp laining the transporter in episodes, it doesn't work the way Blish envisioned. It decoheres (is that a word?) your particles and they're squirted down to their destination, where they realign in the annular confinement beam. But the concept--does the soul go along?--is still valid. Since the episode where Barclay was conscious while in transit, I think that was ST's way of saying the person does not die, but arrives complete and intact. Strangely, it's dodged the question of whether people have souls in any other context. (Although obviously Vulcans do.)
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

88
I have that book. :)

Isn't that the one where Spock gets duplicated into an evil twin, much like Kirk did in "Wolf in the Fold"? The concept of soul 'death' would be an interesting one for scientists and philosophers alike to debate should the transporter ever become a reality someday.

Edit: Argh... it's not 'Wold in the Fold'... that's the one where Scotty is accused of murder. What's the name of the episode where Kirk gets split up?
Last edited by Valkrist on Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

90
Its hard to have a debate from my side, since physics is like a foreign language from a different planet from a different galaxy in a different universe in a different dimension to me. i just know the little bit that you learn as an overview.I just believe that basically everything that we know is relative to what we know (i know its one of those hokey philosophical statements). like when they first discovered an atom, the literal translation means "cannot split", they believed it was the smallest particle, and that was fact, then they found that atoms were made of protons, neutrons and electrons, and those were the smallest, now they know those 3 are made up of different things ( i dont know what they are) I know that quarks are components of a neutron and they said that quarks cant exist outside the nucleus of an atom, but they found neutron stars completely made up of quarks.

another thing.. notice how people always say "you know what THEY say" or "well THEY said this or that"... man, THEY know everything.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

91
Well, I just finished watching the second part of the Klingon virus story-arc, and I must say I am quite pleased and impressed with how it turned out. The writers really deserve a bonus for pulling this one off and answering one of Star Trek's longest standing mysteries.

However, nothing is ever perfect, and either I missed something or yet again Archer and his crew are left looking like the only ship in Starfleet that never fills out a mission report. Though the appearance of the human-looking Klingons is neatly e xp lained, how is it possible that Starfleet officers two hundred years later would have no knowledge of this and e xp ress disbelief when confronted by it? How could a doctor with the super genetically-enhanced brain of Julian Bashir not be aware that two hundred years ago, Klingons were mutated into the Klingons we saw in Kirk's time? Sure the Klingons probably did their best to cover this up, but Starfleet was under no such obligation, and it would be pretty hard for word not to leak out of millions of mutated Klingons existing for several generations. It just doesn't make sense. Worf's disconcerted and ashamed admission is certainly believable, but not the incredulity of his companions.

Obviously, and in real world terms, the writers of DS9 had no way of knowing that the answers would be given in another show a few years later, but it does show some lack of foresight on the part of the writers of Enterprise not to account for this huge inconsistency.

It seems that sometime between Kirk's five-year mission and the time of DS9, a process was found that could be reverse the mutation, accounting for how Kor, Kang, and Koloth, all Klingons that looked part human before, now look like full Klingons. This still leaves one minor inconsistency behind though. In the TOS episode "The Savage Curtain," we are shown Kahless as a mutated Klingon. This of course makes no sense since the real Kahless would have looked like the full-blooded Klingons, much as the clone of Kahless appears in TNG. All in all though, that's a minor quibble. What really bothers me is that either Archer doesn't like to file reports, or Starfleet in those days kept the crappiest records ever, because much vital knowledge seems to have slipped through the cracks in the following two hundred years.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

92
Oh, I think Star Fleet knew all about it, but that those involved were sworn to secrecy to prevent the Klingons' embarrassment from causing instability in the Empire and creating friction with Earth. As for the Klingons themselves, they'd be so ashamed, they wouldn't talk about it--much as Worf said, 200 years later.

At Archer's time, very very few people had seen a Klingon, and as time goes on and more humans have contact with Klingons, humanity would come to think of the Klingons as the smooth-headed version.

Relative to the "correction" of the Klingons, Phlox hints at it in the episode, but it happens over a shorter interval than just end-of-TOS to DS9. We have to assume that the virus ultimately infected every Klingon in the Galaxy, since it was said to be out of control and threatening the Klingons with extinction. (So why didn't Section 31 just let it run its course?) So really, a reversal of the human appearance problem was developed between the end of TOS and ST:TMP, since we saw bumpy-headed Klingons in it.

Something here that really doesn't make sense is that after 100 years of being "smooth," you'd think it wouldn't be that big a deal anymore and the Klingons wouldn't bother having surgery or gene therapy or whatever to get bumpy again.

Regarding Kahless, the Kahless in "The Savage Curtain" was created from the perceptions of Kahless in the minds of Kirk and Company. Assuming they only know of Klingons as smooth-headed, that's how the Excalbians would present Kahless.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

93
I was gonna say the same thing about Khaless Olorin, but you beat me too it :boxing: i cant wait to watch it tonite, stupid no UPN channel. whats retarded about that is i live like 1 1/2s away from a city (Houston, TX) that has a UPN affiliate and no, we dont get UPN, we get WGN a Chicago station, so at like 10 oclock on this channel, we have Chicago local news (Chicago is like 6 states away)... idiots.

it could be said that even after 100 years, it is still not mentioned because it is not honorable, they failed at their attempt to make klingon augments, and failure is not honorable, especially when your failure alters the appearance of every klingon for decades to come. and about not getting their ridges back, i would assume that every klingon would want them, because that is part of their history and klingons are big into tradition, a klingon without ridges could cause embarassment in a family house.

i guess it was e xp lained, or we just let it go, i havent seen the show yet, but why did klingons dress like warriors with all their armor in archers day, but then dress like pirate muskateers with swords and with goatees in kirks day. i guess one could say they didnt dress like the warriors until they got there genetic ridge problem fixed.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

94
Ok, I can buy that the Starfleet of the time as well as the Klingons did their best to keep things on a low profile, but I can't believe that a space-travelling race as e xp ansionistic as they were, was not noticed by other beings in the galaxy as abruptly changing appearance. Something of this magnitude would be next to impossible to cover up effectively and surely computer records as well written ones existed in several places that testified to the Klingon race once having sported a very distinct appearance. That they all looked mostly human by Kirk's time is fine with me, but if your theory is true, then why weren't humans reacting with surprise when the bumpy-headed Klingons show up on the scene again? Even if things were covered up from Archer's time, that means that some time around Kirk's time, when the Klingons changed back, the reasons for it should have been recorded once again, and records would have survived into DS9's time. I'm sorry, but the whole thing really doesn't gel together very well.

I do like the e xp lanation about Kahless though, because it makes a lot of sense. :)

Just as a point of interest: there is a Star Trek novel (the title of which escapes me at the moment,) which attempted to e xp lain why the Klingons looked different. Some time after first contact with humans, it was deemed by some higher ups that Klingons needed crews better suited to interact with the humans and other species other than the violent and very warrior-like traditional Klingons. Scientists developed a genetic strain which created the more human-like Klingons. The Empire split into two castes at this time: the Imperial Klingons which ran the affairs at home, and the half-Klingons, which operated the fleet and interacted with other species. Eventually the political situation changed and the project was abandoned, with no more half-Klingons being created, and as they died out, only the Imperial Klingons survived.

An interesting theory, but it doesn't e xp lain Kor, Koloth, and Kang, but in all fairness, the novel was written in the 80's and DS9 was not on the scene yet.

As for why the mutated Klingons all wear different uniforms, I think it was siumply a stylistic change within the Empire, perhaps to reflect their new appearance. Starfleet went through a bunch of different uniforms throughout the years, and even the Romulans altered their dress a little. There's no reason why the Klingons couldn't do the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

95
Valkrist wrote:I can't believe that a space-travelling race as e xp ansionistic as they were, was not noticed by other beings in the galaxy as abruptly changing appearance. Something of this magnitude would be next to impossible to cover up effectively and surely computer records as well written ones existed in several places that testified to the Klingon race once having sported a very distinct appearance. That they all looked mostly human by Kirk's time is fine with me, but if your theory is true, then why weren't humans reacting with surprise when the bumpy-headed Klingons show up on the scene again? Even if things were covered up from Archer's time, that means that some time around Kirk's time, when the Klingons changed back, the reasons for it should have been recorded once again, and records would have survived into DS9's time. I'm sorry, but the whole thing really doesn't gel together very well.

The show that is probably the best TV show of all time, and I would call it my favorite but for my sentimental attachment to Star Trek, often intentionally left questions unanswered. I am speaking, of course, of The X Files. Leaving questions unanswered perpetuated its sense of mystery. In the later seasons, when they started feeling the need to tie up all the loose ends, is when the show really started falling apart. Coincidence? Maybe.

In Star Trek's case, I think loose ends are left dangling because they either don't care enough to tie them up, or can't think of a good way to do so. In any case, I'm not too bothered that there are still unresolved questions in the bumpy/non-bumpy issue. The Enterprise 2-parter did a much better job e xp laining the thing than I would have hoped for, as far as the e xp lanation went. Another Star Trek series can take a crack at the remaining questions. ;)

Speaking of "The Savage Curtain" from TOS, which we did a bit ago, one of the remaining Enterprise episodes is going to follow up on a character from it. No, I'm not talking about Abraham Lincoln, but rather Colonel Green. An episode called Demons, which I think is going to be the series finale or the ep right before it, is going to feature a character, played by noted actor Peter Weller (Robocop), who's a follower of Colonel Green's genocidal/racist policies. Or something along those lines. So it will be either an opportunity to fill in some more of TOS' backstory, or an opportunity to throw more continuity errors into Star Trek, depending upon your outlook. Personally, I think it's more than a little sad that over 30 years after TOS and its stories involving racism and other forms of discrimination, that our world is still plagued by such things.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

96
I watched the 2nd part to the Klingon forehead episode on Enterprise last nite. all i have to say, it was very very good.... Grrrrrrrreat! even. when i first heard about this arc a few months ago... my first reaction was very positive, then about 5 minutes later, i got my "oh no, they are gonna screw this up"...but i got excited again, and i do have to say i was pleased. i liked the whole klingon/augment reason as to why they had the genetic defect.
there was almost a ironic justice to it, klingons thought that humans are weak and they are superior, but they decide to use human augment dna, but in turn it creates a lethal virus and the only way to stop the virus is basically for every klingon to look like a human...

anyone know what next week has in store?
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

98
grrrrr i hate repeats... they did this after the vulcan arc this season and went 2 months without a new episode :( ... they shoulda went out with a bang... and made all new eps for the remainder of the series (the cast might need the money... they are all about to be without jobs soon :D )
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

100
Yeah... reruns bite unless you somehow missed a show or two along the way.

Talking about the destruction of the original NCC-1701 in the favourite ship thread, I remembered a question I had long ago that bugged me for a while and then I completely forgot about.

It concerns the auto-destruct sequence. I was sure I heard in several shows that the ship's auto-destruct was tied to the warp engines. Essentially, the ship is destroyed via warp core or reactor breach after the correct codes are inputed from the bridge by the command crew. Here is my question then:

In ST III, we watch Kirk, Scotty, and Chekov go through the now-familiar steps of inputing their codes. This is all fine and well. Then the countdown begins, and this is fine too. My problem comes when the ship begins to e xp lode. First we see bridge consoles blowing up, followed by an external shot of the bridge dome e xp loding outward. Next we see the hull plating on the saucer section begin to disintegrate, and then the entire primary hull e xp lodes, leaving only a shattered fragment still attached to the secondary hull as the entire ship plunges into the atmosphere. So where do the warp engines come into all this? Not once do they e xp lode, and they appear intact even as the ship burns up in it's descent.

So, was there some other system of onboard e xp losive charges that were tied to the auto-destruct instead of the warp engines, or did the writers of ST III screw up? The auto-destruct is used several times in the history of Star Trek as a bluff by captains to threaten enemies with destruction. With sophisticated sensors in use, this bluff wouldn't be of much use if the enemy could tell that the resulting e xp losion would be so small as to not present a threat to their own ship. An e xp losion as seen in ST III is definitely very low-key as the nearby Bird of Prey escapes unscathed. So my theory is that for the auto-destruct to be of any use as a weapon, it has to go through the matter/anti-matter reactor and therefore produce a much greater e xp losion.

What do you guys think?
Last edited by Valkrist on Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Spelling

Return to “Star Trek & Star Wars”

cron