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Wow, somehow I missed your post.

The original format for the show was that each season was going to be totally self-contained: different cast, different setting, etc. That was too out there for CBS and was one of the sticking points that ultimately led to Bryan Fuller's exit.

The current format is supposed to be same cast, same ship, different story arc each season. So, the Klingon war will wrap up this spring. I had not heard anything about a Nick Meyers Ceti Alpha story arc. Since we're sticking with this ship and crew, I'd say it's a no-go unless they time-travel or do alternate universe (and I really hope they don't do either of those too-used tropes).

On another topic, has anyone heard the huge rumor about one of the main characters? It's something I hope they do not do, but I have to admit they do seem to be laying the groundwork for it. Beyond the fact that I don't like the idea, there's a big problem that would keep this from being a viable idea. Anyway, if anyone wants to know, highlight the Black Speech below.

Lt. Ash Tyler is a Klingon altered to look human. That's why his and Lorca's escape from the Klingon ship was so easy: they were intentionally placing a spy on Discovery. And the thing that makes this unworkable? The first time the guy goes to Sickbay for anything more serious than a hangnail, they're going to discover he's a Klingon.
Valkrist wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:47 am
Olorin wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:19 am Renewed for a second season.
I've stalled on Ep3.

Got the others waiting on the PVR but I feel no rush to watch them, though I will get around to it. I think that attests to overall lack of extra excitement about the series.

Olorin, what do you think about the continued rumours that Season 2 will be the Nick Meyers-based Ceti Alpha V story? Many people seem to insist that the current season is a one-off, and the original plans for having self-contained multiple seasons with different stories and casts is still in place and borne out by the Nick Meyers project. :huh:
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Start watching. It gets better after Ep 3.
Valkrist wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:47 am
Olorin wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:19 am Renewed for a second season.
I've stalled on Ep3. Got the others waiting on the PVR but I feel no rush to watch them, though I will get around to it. I think that attests to overall lack of extra excitement about the series.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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All caught up now.

I'm warming up more to this show as I think it is improving quite a bit as we go along. The characters are becoming more interesting, especially the captain, and the plot is intriguing me.

Couple of observations that really drove the point home that this is not a network show: phasers and disruptors set to maximum (disintegrate), which was something usually reserved only for the movies, and two F-bombs is less than 10 seconds (is this a first for Trek?) Also, thank all the gods that some of the Klingons are finally speaking English as they interact with other species onscreen.

However, the nitpicks and annoyances continue to mount:

- Starfleet needs the spore drive to penetrate the Klingon Empire, but the Klingons can send a cruiser into Federation space under normal warp, near a starbase apparently, abduct a high profile captain, and run off unscathed???
- Why are replicators called synthesizers now?
- Why is all of Starfleet officially using the TOS insignia for the USS Enterprise? In this era, each ship had its own distinctive uniform insignia, and the Enterprise's delta logo was only adopted by Starfleet as its official insignia after the five-year mission to honour the Enterprise.
- What's up with the 'DISCO' shirts the crew wears off-duty? Has to be an acronym for something, but without an explanation, it just struck me as exceedingly odd. If it stood for 'DISCOVERY', why not just put the whole name in smaller font?
- A techno/hip-hop rave party onboard a Starfleet vessel, especially during a time of war? Yes, there were recreational gatherings on the Enterprise and Voyager, and off-duty crews get a chance to relax and have fun, but that party was way over-the-top, complete with alcohol (Tilly was clearly in the early stages of intoxication,) and full-on makeout sessions, including outside in the hallway of the ship. I just couldn't reconcile those images and activities with the discipline required to run a vessel that is on military status. At a starbase or planetside, sure, but that was just stupid and not believable.
- Harry Mudd is now a psychotic mass murderer? Sure he was mainly doing it because he knew none of it would be permanent until he got the secret of the spore drive, but the obvious maniacal glee and relish in the multiple ways in which he disposed of the ship, crew, and captain highlighted a sadistic and cruel aspect to Mudd that are utterly out of character with the original. Sorry, but by the end of the episode I had divorced what I was seeing from any connection to the real Harry Mudd. Also, given how we see him in TOS (which happens 10 years from now,) he appeared too old already, and Stella appeared too young if we take her appearance in 'I, Mudd' at face value.
- In fact, the entire Mudd episode with the time-tinkering/deja vu/one immune character is a tired trope that's been used several times in Trek before. It was annoying and predictable.
- Speaking of tired, I feel the whole Burnham/Sarek connection to be forced and unnecessary. Sure it was interesting to hear that Sarek was forced to choose Spock over her, but overall it's very shoe-horned for the sake of pulling in familiar names just because. I don't mind the Vulcan connection, but why did it have to be Sarek? Not only that, her whole backstory is pretty much an exact copy of Worf's. Seems like the writers are barely trying and Trek could use a break from everything being somehow connected to Spock and his family already.
- While we are on the topic of Vulcan, I guess it now has moons? There were two huge planetary bodies in the sky. Or was Sarek not on Vulcan at all? It sure looked it was. Or maybe the planet/moon in the sky was Delta Vega, which according to the silly JJverse, is close enough that you can see Vulcan blowing up while standing on its surface?!?
- Why do Klingon fighter ships look like peacocks during mating season?

:huh: :huh: :huh:
This Space for Rent

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I'm glad you've caught up, and that you're starting to warm to it. Remember, even TNG was mostly lame for two whole years before it got good.

See individual responses/comments below.
Valkrist wrote: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:32 am
Couple of observations that really drove the point home that this is not a network show: phasers and disruptors set to maximum (disintegrate), which was something usually reserved only for the movies, and two F-bombs is less than 10 seconds (is this a first for Trek?) Yes, first F-bombs ever in Star Trek of any format. The producers said the word's been around since the time of Shakespeare, so why wouldn't it still be around in 250 years?

However, the nitpicks and annoyances continue to mount:

- Starfleet needs the spore drive to penetrate the Klingon Empire, but the Klingons can send a cruiser into Federation space under normal warp, near a starbase apparently, abduct a high profile captain, and run off unscathed??? They haven't really established yet where things are occurring, at least not very well. The shtick with the spore drive is that it can take Discovery anywhere instantly, so it gives them an edge in being able to get to wherever they need to be. So however long the Klingons take to get to a place, Discovery can be there as soon as they get word.
- Why are replicators called synthesizers now? Hadn't noted that, and wasn't 100% sure that this were replicators in the same sense as in the later Treks. I guess I was holding out hope that they were just bringing in pre-made meals from somewhere on the ship.
- Why is all of Starfleet officially using the TOS insignia for the USS Enterprise? In this era, each ship had its own distinctive uniform insignia, and the Enterprise's delta logo was only adopted by Starfleet as its official insignia after the five-year mission to honour the Enterprise. Good catch; I hadn't noticed that. I'd have to say that's a screw-up.
- What's up with the 'DISCO' shirts the crew wears off-duty? Has to be an acronym for something, but without an explanation, it just struck me as exceedingly odd. If it stood for 'DISCOVERY', why not just put the whole name in smaller font? It is indeed for Discovery, but why they're using a nickname, I don't know. Does our military use nicknames for some of its ships?
- A techno/hip-hop rave party onboard a Starfleet vessel, especially during a time of war? Yes, there were recreational gatherings on the Enterprise and Voyager, and off-duty crews get a chance to relax and have fun, but that party was way over-the-top, complete with alcohol (Tilly was clearly in the early stages of intoxication,) and full-on makeout sessions, including outside in the hallway of the ship. I just couldn't reconcile those images and activities with the discipline required to run a vessel that is on military status. At a starbase or planetside, sure, but that was just stupid and not believable. I guess synthehol hasn't been invented yet. And even during war time, you have to party. As to how wild the party was, or the choice of music, I think this is just one area where we're going to be reminded this is not Picard listening to opera....
- Harry Mudd is now a psychotic mass murderer? Sure he was mainly doing it because he knew none of it would be permanent until he got the secret of the spore drive, but the obvious maniacal glee and relish in the multiple ways in which he disposed of the ship, crew, and captain highlighted a sadistic and cruel aspect to Mudd that are utterly out of character with the original. Sorry, but by the end of the episode I had divorced what I was seeing from any connection to the real Harry Mudd. Also, given how we see him in TOS (which happens 10 years from now,) he appeared too old already, and Stella appeared too young if we take her appearance in 'I, Mudd' at face value. The producers and actor playing Mudd said the character is much darker than he will later be because of the war. I would also guess that being a prisoner on a Klingon ship made him a nastier person, at least temporarily. And even the original Mudd from TOS could be a tad on the nasty side.
- In fact, the entire Mudd episode with the time-tinkering/deja vu/one immune character is a tired trope that's been used several times in Trek before. It was annoying and predictable. I was a bit dismayed that they were repeating the time loop trope initially, but once I understood it was being caused intentionally by a third party and wasn't some random anomaly, I was ok with it. Time loops and time travel are such a part of Star Trek I think we'll always be stuck with (or in) them.
- While we are on the topic of Vulcan, I guess it now has moons? There were two huge planetary bodies in the sky. Or was Sarek not on Vulcan at all? It sure looked it was. Or maybe the planet/moon in the sky was Delta Vega, which according to the silly JJverse, is close enough that you can see Vulcan blowing up while standing on its surface?!? I think this was a nod to the appearance of Vulcan in the original, non-director's cut of ST:TMP, where there were several large moons in the sky (giving rise to the non-canon T'Khut).
- Why do Klingon fighter ships look like peacocks during mating season? I don't know, but if you figure it out, I'd sure like to know, too. Not only do none of the Klingon ships look nothing like they did in TOS time, they look nothing like they did in ENT, and they should fall somewhere on a spectrum between those two points.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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A positive review of Discovery in the Weekly Standard, "an American conservative opinion journal" (as Wikipedia describes it.)
(Yes, I subscribe to the WS; no, I am not a neo-con.)

Anyway, I thought it might be of interest to those of you who are watching Discovery.
I am not, but I have a soft spot for Star Trek in general and, more-or-less, follow what is happening in the ST expanded universe.
(Towards the end of the commentary there is also a review of a ST parody, "The Orville".)

http://www.weeklystandard.com/star-trek ... le/2010432

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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So I have finally caught up with the first half of season one.

Overall I thought it was pretty good, except for the klingons, why do they have to change the klingons?!
I also agree with Val's comments that, obviously it can't look like TOS, but jeez, the technology looks like its 200 years after Voyager sometimes.
I really like Jason Isaacs' character... a hardened captain, but with a soft spot, moreso than Sisko.

The spore drive concept is interesting, I am wondering how it plays out. I guess it ends up being too dangerous and banned, or was just a fluke that Stamets was the only one that could actually control it, or no telling what happens to Stamets in the 2nd half of the season.

I didn't think the F-bombs were a big deal. They weren't a "vulgar" use of the word, but more of a slip of the tongue, out of excitement, by Tilly and a confirmation by Stamets. I think the drunken rave party was more off putting/unsettling than the F-bombs.


I am ready to see what the 2nd part of the season has in store.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Time to discuss the opening episode of Season 1's second half.

Warning, spoilers ahead!

So, the Mirror universe is back.

When the half-season ended, fans theorized that Discovery had travelled to one of two possible places: the Prime Trek universe (which the showrunners have claimed Discovery has been a part of all along but enough discrepancies have cropped up to put that in doubt,) or the Mirror universe. Looks like the latter has won out.

I have to say that for the most part, I loved the episode and the way this story is shaping up. The setup was very interesting, the disguising of the ship and the crew was ingenious and efficient, and the strain of having to impersonate such immoral personas is already having an effect. I also love the fact that in the Mirror universe, Tilly is the Discovery's captain, and Burnham and Lorca are enemies. The look of the Mirror uniforms is awesome, and the dreaded agony booths also make an appearance.

Also in this episode was the non-shocking revelation that Tyler is in fact a Klingon sleeper agent, something people suspected all along. What was shocking was the sudden and unexpected way in which the doctor was killed. I actually gasped out loud when that happened. To just off one of the main crew like that tells me that all bets just might be off on this show, following the trend set by shows like Walking Dead and Game of Thrones. However, one thing about Tyler's revelation that I found to be a bit of a glaring plot hole is that, although they take pains to identify the history and role of their Mirror counterparts so that they can assume their identities, Tyler is conveniently left out of this. Why? Because if they had looked him up, they would have found out rather quickly that the Terran Empire has no matching Tyler for the very simple reason that in the Mirror universe, he's always been a Klingon. They may yet come back to this, but I found it annoying and obviously convenient that he was overlooked.

The introduction of Discovery into the Mirror universe also adds to the growing list of continuity discrepancies with established Trek Prime canon, adding more fuel to the fire that Discovery might not be taking place in Trek Prime. For one, we've always assumed that TOS' Mirror Mirror was the first known incident of establishing the existence of the Mirror universe. The Enterprise's crew is completely taken by surprise by the existence and nature of that universe and what they find there, but you can be certain that the incident would have been well documented and logged after it was over. So, if Discovery is set 10 years before TOS and they encounter the Mirror universe before the Enterprise does, why is there no record of this? Wouldn't Discovery have made Starfleet aware of the menace that lurks just one dimension away? If so, then Kirk and crew should not have been surprised. There are two possible explanations here: the most simple one is that Discovery, for some reason, will not be reporting these events; the second, which is most likely the true one, is that Discovery is running into the same problems that ST: Enterprise did as a series in that they are now retrofitting events that never happened when the previous series (which take place later in the timeline) were written. This is the inherent problem with these prequel shows and not being careful with details like this. Or they simply just don't care.

Speaking of ST: Enterprise, there is another glaring discrepancy in the works. It was established In a Mirror Darkly Pt. 1 & 2 that the USS Defiant from TOS's Tholian Web episode vanished from the Prime universe and reappeared 100 years earlier in the Mirror universe. All good there, and Discovery gleans that data from the salvaged Klingon computer core. So the plan now is to find the Prime Defiant, figure out how it got there, and use that as a way back home. Again, all good and very clever except for another critical continuity detail: At the end of Pt. 2 of In a Mirror Darkly, Mirror Archer orders Mirror Hoshi to wipe the Defiant's databanks clean in order to completely erase all knowledge of the universe that it came from. Assuming Hoshi followed that order, and there is no reason to believe she wouldn't, any and all recorded data pertaining to the phase rift that brought the Defiant to the Mirror universe should be gone. Therefore, either the Discovery crew is going to find out the Defiant is a dead end, or they will conveniently ignore the events of ST: Enterprise as well and the data will be there. I'm betting on the latter.

Random trivia: I noticed that Discovery's flashing red and yellow alert onscreen graphics are identical to the ones used in the TOS movies. Nice bit of homage there. Lorca channeling Scotty when forced to impersonate the ship's engineer was also a very cool nod. :coolsmile
This Space for Rent

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Do you watch the After Trek show? I find it very telling that the host does not ask the producers about the Ash-is-Voq theory. I'm sure he's been told not to.

Let's assume and hope that when Discovery gets back, Starfleet classifies the story of what happened to them. That would be an explanation for why the MU remains unknown 20 years later when Kirk lands in it.

I was pretty shocked to see Lorca in the Agony Booth at the end of the episode. This Star Trek really is going where no Trek has gone before.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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The Klingon sleeper agent: The Producers are very silly people if they think no one figured this one out ages ago. I don't watch After Trek because it does not air here on cable, or at least not immediately after the main show airs, which is kind of the point. Besides, they did air the first one after the pilot and I found the host much too annoying to stand for more than a few minutes. Easy pass for me though I do miss listening in on the discussions.

I wasn't surprised to see Lorca in one of the booths. You can't just showcase a piece of evil tech like that and then not throw one of the main cast in it. :club:

It was nice to get a preview of what a Constitution-class vessel looks like in this new incarnation of Trek, even if it was just a single angle of a computer-generated schematic. The only main differences I spotted were slightly different nacelle caps (they love changing those) and two cylindrical structures on the nacelle pylons themselves.
This Space for Rent

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Olorin wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:31 pmAnyway, the doctor will be back in some way, shape, or form, they more or less said.
Well, if the show wants to gain credibility and edginess, they should leave the character dead. However, since they are in the Mirror universe, you know there is a handy replacement just ready to go. When DS9 tackled everyone's favourite evil dimension, they showed us that not everyone over there is a complete you-know-what so this solution should be a no-brainer. The wrench in the works is that the relationship with the chief engineer will most likely be over.
This Space for Rent

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Interesting. Not the first time someone's not had a Mirror counterpart, but nice of them to confirm that's not the avenue they're taking.

As for the coy hints about the doctor not being 100% dead... ok, sure, this is science-fiction and certainly not the first time a Trek character has risen from the dead. The other half of that article gives some serious clues as to how this will be done. However, I hope it's just an isolated occurrence and not something they suddenly have at their disposal to just bring back dead people. I can think of no faster way for me to lose interest in this show if the element of risk and suspension of disbelief goes out the window. The show already has a rules-breaking device in the Spore Drive... let's not get carried away with whatever else those microscopic entities can do.
This Space for Rent

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This discussion of last night's episode is a bit spoilerish so I'll post it in Black Speech.

So last night we had the big reveal, finally, the confirmation of the fans' theory that Tyler was actually Voq. I think it would have been so much more effective if the Internet had not ruined it for me weeks ago. But in any event, I wonder where they go with the character now? Is the real Tyler still alive and in a Klingon prison somewhere? Will he be rescued? Will the false Tyler simply be kept and redeemed somehow? Knowing Star Trek in all its guises, my money is on the latter. And that will be a big cheat to me. Or maybe not a big cheat, but certainly not how I would do it. They have to address the fate of the real Tyler, even if only somehow to give confirmation that he's dead. But I fear they will simply shrug that off and instead follow a story path that love will redeem the treacherous Klingon that resides behind a human face.

Amazingly, although AfterTrek had Shazad Latif on the show and talked about him playing the dual role, there was no discussion of the fan theory that had been out there for weeks, or of the questions I raised just now. I suspect that the production has that show on shockingly tight reins.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Well, there's a doozey of a fan theory on Lorca, almost as wild as the Tyler/Voq theory. Highlight to read.

He's from the Mirror Universe. Sharp eyed fans noted that he overrode the last spore jump, the one that landed them in the Mirror Universe. Fans think that means he's trying to get home.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I'm not going to bother hiding spoilers as I don't think anyone else reads this thread besides BC.

On the last episode: another fairly solid outing and the big reveal wasn't spoiled for me. Despite fans theorizing about this long beforehand, I honestly feel the clues that have been there all along were too unsubtle and obvious to ignore, not to mention the glaring disappearance of Voq right before Tyler appears. If anything, I would blame the writers and not the fans.

As for the fate of the real Tyler, I fear that you are right in that it will just be swept under the rug. My theory is that he is long dead because there is no way he would have survived whatever torture methods the Klingons used to glean every last detail about him and his personality, and if he did, they would have killed him anyway to eliminate any lingering risk of their plan being discovered. I also don't think it's going to be a love story of redemption - Burnham doesn't seem like the forgiving type, and with Tyler/Voq's Klingon nature fully awakened now, he was not shy about revealing his hatred and contempt for her over the death of T'Kuvma. Having those two reconnect emotionally after all this would make me walk away from the show.

The surprise for me was the revelation of the Emperor's identity, as in not so much whom it turned out to be, but how fast it happened. They made such a big deal about the ruler of the Terran Empire being this mysterious, faceless leader, and then in all of two episodes, that supposed secret is out in the open?!? Seems that in their rush to deliver cool twists, the writers are undermining and contradicting their own setups. The fact that the Emperor is Georgiu (I guess the title of Emperor is gender-neutral in this universe) barely elicited more than a raised eyebrow reaction from me and more of a "well, of course they'd find an overly dramatic way to bring her back" shrug.

The new Lorca theory: I think that one is a bit of a stretch and that the fans are reaching now and jumping at shadows. For one, it leaves open way too many questions for the show to answer, namely how he got into our universe, and how he's been able to hide his true nature for so long. Remember how long it took for the Mirror Enterprise crew to be found out in the original TOS episode? It would really destroy the entire moral message of that episode. Lorca would have to be a master chameleon and a devilishly devious one at that to have adapted so easily, hidden his identity and nature so well, disposed of his counterpart, plot his way back to his universe, and even submit himself willingly to the agony booth to maintain the charade? A very long, long stretch, in my opinion. The thing with the spore drive was just a coincidence/plot device moment to get them to where they are and nothing more.

Even if I am proven wrong about this, it shows that the writers are relying on this kind of plot device too much and that they risk lessening its impact more and more. Before you know it, everyone will be doubting anyone is who they say they are or that anything is what it seems. I hate paranoia shows like that. It also feels like a cheap copout because you are forced to review and discard everything you knew and felt about a long-standing character on the show (Tyler's been around much less than Lorca and his setup was extremely obvious.) Do this one too many times and viewers become resentful and mistrustful of a show.
This Space for Rent

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I had noticed that Voq had disappeared from the storyline and I had also noticed that something was clearly up with Tyler. That said, I am often surprisingly slow on the uptake about these things, and I doubt I would have put two and two together before the big reveal.

As regards Lorca, you raise some good points. However, I have no faith in the writers not to go to a place that undermines logic and continuity, if they think it serves the story they want to tell. And I think the story they want to tell is to be Game of Thrones, to the extent to which it will fit into a Star Trek frames. If they think it's shocking and dramatic, I think they will do it. But we will see. Hopefully they realize fans will have a limit to how many characters they'll put up with having ripped away from them.

And I wouldn't take it to the bank that Burnham and Voq/Tyler won't get back together. I think it would be far more interesting for them to find and recover the real Tyler, and watch Burnham struggle with not transferring her affection to him, but I just fear he's dead. I even red something that someone associated with the show believes that he was skinned so that Voq could wear his skin. Ick. But it's not a theory that's been officially confirmed by the production.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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You are very right on both counts: I too don't trust the writers to either not go for the low-hanging fruit of Lorca being his Mirror version; Voq and Burnham impossibly rekindling their relationship; or both.

If the original Tyler were still alive, it would make for an interesting situation but I don't see any way of that working as not only would he be completely shattered psychologically, he wouldn't have any feelings for Burnham because he is not the same person. Still, leave it for the writers to somehow muck this up. I'm still waiting to see in what eye-rolling, deus ex manner they are going to bring the doctor back. :rolleye:
This Space for Rent

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I don't know when you watch the show, so I'm not sure about what to post, because I don't want to spoil things for you. But that aside, after tonight, I'm more confused than ever about what they did to Voq and/or Tyler to produce the character we've been living with for a while now.

Also, have you noticed the Earth in the Terran Empire emblem is a mirror image of the real Earth? I think that's taking it a bit too far.

And another thing...this episode was only 37 minutes long. I had a sense that these episodes were not as long as a regular "hour" show, which I thought was around 45 minutes, but 37 minutes? That's freakin' ridiculous!
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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It varies as to when I watch the show. Sometimes it is a bit later on Sundays and sometimes it can take a day or two. I watch with my wife and we can't always match up our times so I wait until we can. I did manage to catch this one late last night though.

Tyler/Voq: That one left me confused as well. The simple translation of what L'Rell seemed to be saying is that Tyler's body was a clone of some sort that had Voq's identity somehow grafted onto it. That would be one way to explain it except it doesn't mesh with the indications we've had so far of Tyler's body having clearly been surgically altered from Klingon to human. This tells me that it should be Voq's original body. I'm guessing they took Voq, altered his body to be human, then used Tyler's harvested DNA to create an exact copy of him over the raw form that had been Voq? In the meantime, Tyler's personality was reconstructed to complete the disguise all the while Voq's identity lurked beneath, waiting to be woken? That's as near as I can figure out what happened. Whatever the case, what I do feel is that L'Rell gave in too easily, and if the end result of her help was Voq's death (she does the Klingon death scream, indicating to me that she excised Tyler of Voq's presence) then why bother to save Tyler? Since when does she care about humans or Discovery? The only reason I suppose, would be to do it in the interest of self-preservation by aiding her captors after learning she was no longer in her universe. At any rate, the scenario we both feared most is unfolding before our very eyes: Voq is gone and Tyler is essentially a human copy of the original, with the addition of all his time with Discovery and Burnham. Cue the music and slow-motion running into each other's arms. :barf:

Lorca: Didn't take long for me to be proven wrong on this one, sadly. Part of me actually enjoyed the fact they went there with this, and the fact that it was so well seeded since the beginning of the show with all those clues was very well done by the writers, IMHO. However, I am still left feeling like it's a huge stretch in many ways, and leaves open way too many questions that I feel they will either struggle to answer, or simply leave floating in the ether. When and how did he arrive in the main universe? What did he do to the other Lorca? The list goes on and on. Representing months and months of plotting, this has got to be one of the most complicated and longest cons I have ever seen a character pull off. Also, far too coincidental that he ends up being Discovery's captain and placed in charge of the very project that will eventually offer him a way back home. Way too many variables and chances for things to go wrong, not to mention convenient coincidences, all just to get close to Burnham and then use her to get close to the Emperor? Talk about convoluted. It sounds basically that they came up with a neat idea, then half-built this ridiculously implausible sequence of events to get Lorca back where they needed him to be, Also, the implication of an incestuous relationship with Burnham left me feeling as queasy as she was at hearing of it. Discovery is really pushing the boundaries here.

Mostly though, this all goes back to the problem I knew I was going to have in losing the character in this way. Lorca and Saru are my two favourite characters on the show and now I am losing one of them in a way that does not involve death, but as a victim of the ol' switcheroo-gotcha game. It would have been different if it had happened earlier and before having a chance to develop an enduring bond with the character, and is made worse by the fact that Lorca was actually believable in all of his supposed reasons for being how he was. Here was a character that did not fit our standard mold of a Starfleet captain, but whose rough edges were a very believable result of all the things he'd had to endure. To have all that characterization undone by the revelation that he is just another clichéd moustache-twirling villain from an evil dimension is the epitome of a cheap move.

The Mirror conundrum: Had not noticed the reversed Earth on the insignia before, and yes, that is extremely silly. There is no way the planet itself is actually backwards; the 'mirror' is a metaphor, people! Also, if they were trying to be clever and position themselves as some opposite of the Federation's beliefs, that doesn't make sense either because a) the prime universe is a secret, and b) its discovery comes long after the creation of the symbol. Stupid. Also, the light sensitivity? How and why, all of a sudden? It almost seems like a poorly ret-conned excuse for Lorca's condition. I seem to recall the Mirror Enterprise being just as brightly lit as its counterpart. Continuity breaks like this annoy me to no end. Then there's the Defiant. As I surmised, it looks like they are either ignoring Archer's final order, or that Hoshi somehow backed up the data before deleting it. Given what happens to her after, I can believe that she would do something like that... I guess? Lastly, the Mirror Discovery: Where is it? Now that we know Lorca engineered this whole thing, it goes from being an unlucky accident of Star Trek physics that transposes the two ships, to one that was artificially created by someone. Does that mean the two ships would still exchange places then? Wouldn't the Mirror Discovery have to been performing the exact same actions on their end in order for the exchange to take place? If yes, that's one of those huge stretches I was talking about - not to mention the fact the conversation with the Emperor makes it clear the spore drive does not exist here - and if not and the Discovery arriving is similar to the interphasic space that brought the Defiant, then there would be no exchange, bringing me back to my original question: where is the Mirror Discovery?

Doctor Culber: That was a fitting farewell to the character, allowing him and Stammets to properly say goodbye. I sincerely hope this is what the showrunners meant by saying we hadn't seen the end of the doctor yet. To bring him back to life now somehow would be a really poor decision at this point and cheapen the emotional impact of the entire scene we just saw.

The episode's runtime: Yes, it was only 37 minutes. Seems they are taking a page from Game of Thrones and cheating viewers out of almost 10 minutes of show. Boo hiss.

I was reading some comments on a few other sites and the prevailing opinion seems to be that they are setting up Burnham to be Discovery's captain by the end of the season (see this one coming from a mile away) and that there's a high chance that Discovery will never return to their own universe, turning the show into a Voyager-style series set in the Mirror universe. The latter, as much as I am not keen on the idea, does solve a couple of problems: the spore drive is lost, neatly eliminating its presence from the future that we know, and it gives free rein to the writers to not further muck up the prime continuity.
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Lots of interesting points from you, as usual.... :)

I also noted the eye sensitivity thing as a continuity error. It seems like the writers either aren't that versed in continuity, aren't bothered by violations of it, and/or assume the fans will go along with it in exchange for what the writers think was a clever idea.

I also wondered where Mirror Discover is while all this is going on. It would be very awkward if it just happened to show up.

What are you referring to as an incestuous relationship? That Phillippa seemed to have perhaps a bit more than motherly affection for Michael? They're not actually related so I wouldn't call that incestuous, just, uh, squicky.

I'm not sure what will become of Lorca, or what happened to Prime Lorca. I'm guessing Mirror Lorca will die or stay in the Mirror Universe. As to Burnham becoming captain, I think that's a given. In fact, one of the producers slipped up early in the show's run by saying "Burnham isn't captain yet." Not "a captain," which would not mean anything beyond the face of it, but "not captain," meaning not the captain of Discovery. And while I am enjoying seeing her come into her own, making her captain violates one of the premises/ground rules of this show: our main character is not the captain. Beyond that, for Starfleet Command to overcome their grudge against her, ie, that they sentenced her to life imprisonment for mutiny, it's hard to imagine what she could do that could bring that about. It would have to be a Kirk-like feat of saving the whole galaxy.

As for Discovery staying in the Mirror Universe....God, I hope not. It would give the writer's free rein, but it would not resolve the spore drive issue. Starfleet still has all the information...they could simply build more ships. I suspect that the corruption that Mirror Stamets introduced into the mycelial network will be what does away with the spore drive. The network dies off, and so the concept no longer works. But anyway, I like these characters well enough that I don't want to see them trapped in the hellish Mirror Universe and have to struggle constantly to survive. It would be a really crappy thing to do to them. I'm guessing that they won't get back till the end of the season, but they will get back. In fact, the whole first season is supposed to deal with the Klingon War, so they have to come back in order to resolve that. Otherwise, only half a season dealt with the war, and I think that would have come out in all the producer talk about the show when it premiered.

Let's see, what else? Oh yes, Culber. I still don't think we've seen the last of him. It's been implied he will continue to appear from time to time, as they've said the relationship will continue to grow and blossom, or something like that. I guess if the mycelial network dies off, he will have to manifest in some other way. But honestly though, I don't know what they are going to do with this relationship now. For this to be the first gay relationship in Star Trek, yet condemn it to a sexless noncorporeal level, that would be a second-class citizenship status that I can't imagine the gay community would support. And the producers do care about the gay community, because one of them is gay, AND they consulted with GLAAD to make sure they were ok with killing Culber. So I don't know what they have in store for Culber, but I think we will see him again.

So BC, are you watching this show at all? Or reading this thread? :-)
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Glad to dig into this with you any time. ;)

Mirror Discovery: Yeah, I'm beginning to suspect this is a loose end they will ignore (conveniently.)

Incestuous relationship: I was referring to Lorca and Burnham. Philippa reveals that Lorca raised Burnham like a father until their relationship progressed to another... level. Burnham looked visibly ill at the thought. Yes, Lorca is not actually related to her either, but the implication is stomach-churning nonetheless.

Mirror Lorca: His ability to adapt and survive shows that unlike the Enterprise's Mirror counterparts, one can fake being normal by Prime universe standards (to an extent), and do so for a long time. This would give some hope that Lorca could be redeemed, but his actions at the end of the episode pretty much shut the door on that. Even if he tried to change his ways, I doubt Burnham would let him back on the ship given what she now knows but it remains to be seen if his beef with the Emperor is personal or just another typical backstabbing play for ultimate power. I do so hate seeing a good character discarded like this.

Captain Burnham: Yeah, I didn't think it would be long before they ignored the fact that the main character of the show wouldn't be the captain, and yes, it wouldn't make sense for Starfleet to just ignore her record. However, if the Discovery does get stuck in the Mirror universe, who do you think is going to naturally captain the ship?

The spore drive: Wasn't the entire spore supply onboard Discovery? Whatever records and schematics Starfleet might have would be useless without the spores and Stammets to access the network. Yes, the spores are dying and that is a way for the spore drive to exit stage left, but I'm not convinced yet.

Culber: Yeah, I don't want a recurring ghost on the show, please. That's such a tired trope. Either be done with the character or just have him come back miraculously and be done with it. The network visions thing can only work for so long.

New observation: The ISS Charon - given that the Mirror universe was supposed to be technologically behind the Prime universe, that sure was an impressive starship. This can be explained by the Defiant's arrival 90 years earlier, as the Mirror Enterprise was clearly on a level with our Enterprise, as are the current ISS ships. However, was it just me or did the Charon's configuration look a lot like a Romulan Warbird's, complete with the singularity drive hovering in the centre? (Yes, I know these are not visible on TNG and DS9-era Warbirds, but that is the tech they used.)
This Space for Rent

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I thought tonight's episode really played fast and loose with the science, even by Star Trek standards, particularly as it pertained to the Charon's mycelial core (not a singularity after all). Also, it was unclear me by the time the episode ended whether Discovery would continue to have spore drive power or not. My impression is that the network will now heal itself, but Discovery's supply of spores for interfacing with the network is now gone. I suppose they could acquire more. But what I really hope is that we are now just left to assume that spore drive technology is now depleted, and that is why we never hear of it in later Treks. That would be a real job of weak writing, if this is all the more explanation we're to get. That is especially true as the Mirror Universe obviously has spore drive, so not only must spore drive be explained away in the regular universe, we need a good explanation why it no longer works in the Mirror Universe. We'll see.

Other than those reservations, my comments on the episode would be, wow! So much happened. I wonder if we've seen the last of Lorca? I think we have to assume that we've seen the last of Mirror Lorca, but there's been not a whisper of discussion, as far as I know, about Prime Lorca and whether he'll show up. I'm thinking of that year that Mad Eye Moody was impersonated by Barty Crouch Jr. When we get to the end, we're gobsmacked that it wasn't who we thought it was, but at least the real guy is there and ready to step back in. I fear we won't get any tidy solutions or answers with Discovery. It seems like it's just going to be too busy being fast-based to tie off bleeding ends like that.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Finally got a chance to watch it last night.

Overall, I thought it was ok. Didn't pay too much attention to the techno-babble: so long as it doesn't blatantly disregard or contradict previously established Trek-science, my eyes usually glaze over a bit whenever they launch into explanations at to how they will accomplish something. The whole torpedo/mycelial orb/ride the shockwave thing did seem kind fast and convenient though. Pity, as I wanted them to explore the Defiant option more since I really just wanted to get our first look at a Constitution-class vessel on this show. I did figure it was a dead end though as soon as Georgiou declared it be one. As for the spore drive, I think it is gone for good. It's kinda played out as a plot device and they need to move on. Sweep it under the rug and let this be the reason why we never hear from it again. As for the Mirror universe, with their version of Stammets dead, and the Charon destroyed, it could very well be that they will never gain access to it again, wrapping up that loose end.

I was actually quite surprised that they finished the Lorca thing so quickly, ending with his demise (pretty sure he's not coming back from disintegration.) Given the series-long, elaborate setup, it was almost anticlimactic, to be honest, but then I didn't want him to be some recurring villain that they have to shake off every other season. I too fear that Prime-Lorca will just be conveniently forgotten, much like the human Tyler. Nice to see them paying homage to TOS by way of explaining how Lorca got into our universe, but it was all very fast and it still left a ton of unanswered questions. Given their current predicament, I think those won't get answered any time soon either, if at all. Speaking of time, first they have to make it back from another universe, now they have to figure out a way to go back in time to fix this mess? I highly doubt they will simply progress with things as they are because the Federation is essentially no more, and that is definitely not canon. Either that, or THIS is the proof that this show is not taking place in the Prime-Trek universe. Either way, this crew can't seem to catch a break.

Interesting twist in Burnham saving Philippa and bringing her back, though I saw it coming. The Empress looked none too please, but her ruthlessness might just be what they need to navigate in a universe where the Klingons rule supreme - it could also be the one thing that keeps Burnham from the captain's chair - she will give it up to Philippa's greater experience, but I don't see Saru and the rest of the crew accepting that. We'll see.
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I can't imagine Starfleet actually giving Phillipa command or anything other than a brig cell for that matter, if they have any understanding of what the Mirror Universe is. Although if they are desperate enough, they may try it on a limited basis. In a clip from tonight's upcoming episode, Michael asks Phillipa how she defeated the Klingons in her universe. She also makes a statement that in the Mirror Universe, the Terran Empire rules the entire galaxy. I think that's a bit of hyperbole. Unless the Mirror Universe developed the spore drive years sooner, I don't see how they could have spread that far. Consider that in the late 24th Century, it's projected that it will take Voyager 70 years to get home. And could they defeat the Borg? Or the Dominion?

One of those technobabble bits you apparently glossed over from last week was the statement that the MU's corruption of the mycelial network would result in the destruction of all life everywhere in all universes. I thought, seriously? How/why?
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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So, here's what I've been able to piece together about some of the mysteries, following last night's ep plus some on-line research.

Prime Lorca is dead. When the ISS Buran was attacked while in an ion storm and Mirror Lorca was beaming, he and Prime Lorca were transposed. The Emperor then destroyed the ISS Buran.

The ISS Discovery was transposed with the real Discovery when the latter entered the Mirror Universe. The ISS was then destroyed by Klingons.

Lastly, I think it's is all but certain that the real Tyler is dead. When someone asked Tyler/Voq about the procedure, one of the things he mentioned was that Voq's skin was flayed, ie, removed. Obviously, they would have then replaced it with Tyler's skin. So unless Tyler is walking around looking like he's been a guest of the Boltons, ore even less likely, wearing Voq's skin, he's dead.

Which brings me to another point. The idea that they would alter a Klingon to pass as human is fine. We've seen it before, with Arne Darvin. But this Frankensteinian grafting project they did on Voq is just so implausible. In our real world, transplant recipients have to take immune suppressors for the rest of their lives to keep their bodies from rejecting the new organ...and that's an organ from another human. How much more difficult would it be to receive an organ from an alien? Of course, they did stuff like this on the X Files and it didn't bother me there, so I suppose I shouldn't complain to much now. But it seems like it would have been so much easier and more sensible simply to brainwash the real Tyler and send him back to Starfleet as a sleeper agent. Obviously that wouldn't have been as flashy, so we get what we get.

In any event, I still want more information on what they did. How did they implant a Tyler personality into Voq? Did they transplant some of his brain tissue? I guess I want to know so I can decide whether to view this character in any way as a continuation of the real Tyler, vs. a horrible monstrosity who, while pitiable, should probably just die.

Oh, and the spore drive is not out of the picture yet. You simply grow a new batch of spores, which you can do very quickly.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Had a few more problems with this episode than others of late.

As you mentioned, we got very hurried explanations for the fate of Lorca and the Mirror Discovery. In the case of the former, we are making an assumption that he did not survive the Mirror universe (which is a very safe assumption to make,) but we lack hard evidence and that is always something the writers could seize on one day if they wish to revisit the character.

Now for more current conundrums facing our brave crew:

- Seems like arriving 9 months forward in time has quietly been accepted. I get that. Time travel, even in Star Trek, is not something that is easily done, but I find it interesting that they don't give the matter any thought and are trying to make the best of the situation. What worries me about this nonchalance is that we are now dealing with events that don't fit in with any previously established lore. Even if the Federation were to get itself out of the current mess they are in, basically cornered all the way to Earth, there is no way that we are going to have the same Federation that we see in TOS in only nine years' time from now. So... something tells me that either these events will be erased from the timeline, or that they are monkeying around again with our perception that this is the same Prime universe that we know. Either way, I'm getting irritated with all the discrepancies and backtracking to fix everything, which brings me to my next beef...

- The spore drive. Seems that reports of its death were greatly exaggerated. Apparently and with only a couple of more lines of techno-babble thrown at us, it is now possible to regrow the spores quite easily and replenish their stores. The spore drive has now gone from something cool to something that has overstayed its welcome and has become an all-too convenient Deus-ex plot device to get them out of every jam. It's becoming tiresome, to be honest. I get that the spore drive is Discovery's raison d'etre but they need to start thinking about moving beyond it and figuring out other ways to solve problems. Also, like the time-warp fast forward, it needs to go away if we are to ever believe that this Trek is happening in the same universe as the others.

- Ash Tyler. They keep dancing around a straight answer as to what was done to him and what exactly he is. L'rell is the logical choice to go to for answers but apparently the writers would rather keep the mystery going by dancing close to the issue then running off when we are close to figuring this out. I totally agree with what you said in that this seems like an awful lot of trouble and incredulous levels of tech accomplish something that has been done before with far less convoluted complications. Again, I think the writers are in danger of outsmarting themselves on this one. I also didn't like how all the crew was suddenly willing to welcome him back as if basically nothing had happened, including the murder of one of their own. Burnham seems to be the only one reacting appropriately. Frankly, I think they should of just gotten rid of the Tyler character as his usefulness to the story is done.

- Sarek and the Admiral seem to be playing very naively into whatever plan Mirror Philippa is hatching. It all seems too easy and convenient, but I'm willing to wait and watch a little longer before deciding how I feel about all this. I notice you didn't bring up this point, but I think I deserve some credit for guessing that she would end up as the captain of the Discovery despite your assertion that Starfleet would never agree to that. Now look who put her on that centre chair? ;)
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I don’t recall, and right now I’m too lazy to read back, whether I knew the Federation was losing the war when I said they would never put Phillipa in command. Even with that, I’m sure they plan to relieve her just to soon as she gets them out of their current pickle. If they have any sense, they have Plan B to take her out of power if she doesn’t relinquish it willingly. Sort of a parallel situation to the voyager episode where they acquired seven of nine, and Janeway had a back up plan to sever seven from the collective and escape the Borg. More later, too tired right now.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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OK, coming back to this....

Yeah, I guess you called it on the Captain Mirror Phillipa idea. I guess I gave the writers more credit for being sensible, and you gave them more credit for being, I don't know, sensationalist? It may prove to be a good idea, if they can wrest command back from her once the Klingons are defeated.

Along those lines, I wonder what the character's fate will be? Something that occurred to me as a neat way to tie off two loose ends would be for Phillipa and L'Rell to kill each other. Not sure that will happen, though. But hopefully you watch the episode Sunday night or very soon after so we can share thoughts on the season finale, especially considering we have no idea when the second season will start.

Re: Tyler, killing him off after the big reveal would definitely have been tidier, and honestly at that point, I think I would have been ok with it. It's like they ruined a good character and I don't see a way to redeem him. It's very unfortunate, as I really, really liked his character.

I can tell you're still smitten with the idea that this really isn't the Prime Universe after all. I hope you are wrong about that, because it would represent a blatant like told by the producers from Day One, and that sets a very bad tone for the show...how could we trust them on anything? Considering how they've made the Klingons look, and with no explanation for that likely forthcoming, I just accept that this is the Prime Universe but things look different because these producers think their way is cooler. It's unfortunate that they would be so cavalier with the fans' preconceptions, not to mention continuity, but it isn't really surprising. Berman had a very staid and tightlaced approach to portraying the Star Trek universe, and at the end of the day he was pilloried in part for that. Everybody else that gets their hands on Star Trek now feels the need to put their own wild spin on it.

I assumed maybe some sort of time travel plot point would be used to return Discovery to nearer the timepoint where it left the Prime Universe for the Mirror Universe, so that the incredible damage to the Federation could be undone. Now I really doubt that will happen. It would in some way be the easy way out, and I think the new producers want to make the stakes as high as possible on the notion that the payoff will be sweeter. The stakes don't get much higher than the Federation on the brink of defeat, and a time-travel solution would probably be viewed as having been used too much in the past.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Oh I am far from smitten with the idea that this series is not set in the Prime universe, In fact, I am fervently hoping for the opposite because I hate the JJverse and don't want yet another version or timeline. It's just that the burden of proof is on the writers and so far they've given me (and others) more than enough cause to doubt that what we are witnessing is the same timeline that would theoretically fall between Enterprise and TOS, all the name-dropping notwithstanding. I've gotten over the look of the Klingons and am at peace with this incessant need to update/tinker/leave your mark urges that every new show gets. It was a little more drastic than it needed to be, but at least they are still Klingons and not the new race of Tkjahfkajhfablahblah that we've never heard of before and are just being shoehorned into Trek history now (kinda like the Spore drive.)

However, this Klingon war and the Federation being on the brink of annihilation is very much crossing the red line in terms of what we can accept as part of historical events of the Prime universe that we know. As I remarked in my previous post. even if Discovery saves the day, and we know they will, there is no way that Starfleet can recover enough in just nine short years to present us with the Alpha quadrant as is by the time TOS comes about and the Enterprise begins its five-year mission. Consider also that given the events with Captain Pike and "The Cage" take place 13 years before Kirk sets out, there should already be around 12 Constitution-class vessels flying around during this show's events, yet there is not a single glimpse of the fleet's most powerful ships thus far, and we are being told Starfleet has now lost two thirds of its ships.

In short, their interminable chase for sensationalist storytelling is very quickly undermining the foundations of this universe as we know it, and that is what keeps me from believing the show is being straight with us. Either that or as you said, they simply don't care and will do whatever they want, which is a huge disrespect to the property and its fans because it ignores decades of established lore. Or, we will get a time travel solution to clean up this mess.
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Essentially all of your issues are intrinsic to prequels, which is why I groaned when I heard this show would be a prequel. I groaned a second time when I heard it would be set only 10 years before TOS.

That said, consider this. TOS had a very "early days of exploration" feel (and Enterprise obviously even more so). Assuming that no time travel occurs and no reset happens, the Federation will have been reduced to little more than a shambles. That could account for the "just getting started" feel of TOS, as they would be just getting started...over.

I hear what you're saying about events too major to accept as occurring earlier than, and in the same timeline, with something we know as well as TOS. One would have thought we'd have heard about something as major as a war with the Klingons that we almost lost. But again...prequels. One might have thought we'd have heard about something as major as the Xindi attack on Earth, and a second, fatal attack only averted at the last second, but we didn't. (And I don't think we commented too much on that at the time.) We just have to accept that prequels still want to tell big, bold stories, and hope that viewers can accept that in the chronologically later part of the timeline, people will have stopped talking about Event X and using it as a touchstone for everything.

There's something to be said for that theory/hope, I think. Seventeen years on from 9/11, we don't talk about it much any more. Anybody who was alive and aware on 9/11 will always remember it, but to anyone who was a small child then, or born afterward, it has no significance. It will always be a part of history, but history is not much talked about in everyday life. Or at least that's how I will choose to rationalize Discovery's Klingon war.

Coming back to the look of the Klingons.... Although I said I accept that this is how the producers chose to make them look, continuity be damned, it still bothers me a bit, for this reason. Enterprise presented a wonderful in-universe reason for why the TOS Klingons looked different from the Klingons of every other era,,,and Discovery jettisoned that out the airlock without so much as a "Get away from her, you b i t c h!"
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Excellent points as usual, both on the inherent problem with prequels and how fast history passes us by.

With regards to Enterprise though, and yes... as groan-worthy as it was when we first discovered it would be a prequel, I still think they handled it rather well. The biggest and wisest move they made was to set it 100 years before the events of TOS. Given what you said about how we isolate ourselves from historical events fairly quickly, an entire century is more than enough distance to put many events behind the public consciousness, especially when you consider that a century equates to roughly five generations (for humans at least.) Given that perspective and even with something as big as the Xindi war and the attack on Earth, it's no surprise that the writers felt the impact of such things would have long blown over by the time Kirk gets his command.

You could even theoretically call TOS a prequel to TNG, though of course that's not how it happened in the real world, but the 90-year gap there again illustrates that at least with Enterprise and TNG, the writers were forward-thinking enough to lay enough of a gap so that annoying nit-pickers like me wouldn't be yelling at the TV and saying things like "How come we never heard about that?!?"

When I heard Discovery would only be ten years before TOS I immediately smelled trouble because I knew they would have to bend over backwards to keep a lot of the elements of the setting on course for what we know should be happening. Instead, they've written themselves into a seriously limited corner with their decision, which is only creating all kinds of conflicts and inconsistencies, the kind that can only be cleaned up with tiresome plot devices like spore drives and time travel.

Have you noticed that had Discovery been set slightly after DS9 and Voyager, that almost none of it would have to be changed from its current format? It would barely affect any of the stories told thus far, and it would only require a couple of more technological advancements to be present on the ship. Other than that, absolutely nothing distinguishes this show from being set in the past of Trek or its future. Sure there's the Burnham/Sarek connection, but that's proven more cumbersome to the show than adding anything of value. If anything, it's been one more dubious fact that we've had to swallow where there was previously nothing.
This Space for Rent

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I was very disappointed that it was going to be a prequel instead of something set after Voyager. Beyond the fact that the geopolitical situation in the galaxy after the destruction of Romulus was crazy-ripe for storytelling exploitation, it just seems like a lack of imagination to keep doing prequels. Apparently only Gene Roddenberry had the vision and the guts to move forward 100 years in time…
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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OK, so, last episode watched, both of the show and of After Trek. Let's see how much of this I can remember.

When the Enterprise showed up at the very end for its fan-predicted appearance, it looked far more advanced than it should have: flared and swept-back nacelle pylons, and just general snazziness. It looked nothing like what the NCC-1701 should have looked like in 2257 (which is when this ep is set, according to Memory Alpha), and it's a bit much to ask to think that it will undergo a refit that will make it look more primitive, especially when we've seen it in TOS not only at the beginning of the series in 2265 or thereabouts but also 13 years earlier, when Pike took it to Talos IV. So not only would the ship we just saw have to be refit to make it look like Kirk's ship, it would have had to have already undergone a major refit to make it look like it does. So, it is now just about too much to swallow that we are really in the Prime Universe that we are used to. At the same time, we are not in the Kelvin Universe, or the JJVerse as some call it, as this Enterprise did not look like that ship and Kirk, not Pike, would have been in command in 2257. So, this is either a third timeline, or a screw-you-continuity Prime Universe. Either way, it represents a bit of a cavalier approach to Trek that a lot of fans will find off-putting.

On AfterTrek, the host asked the producers if the fact that the Enterprise shows up at the end has any significance. One of them stated it's meant to imply forthcoming answers to big questions, like why did Spock never mention a foster-sister? Yeah, right.

So, L'Rell is set free at the end, and becomes, what? The Chancellor? The Empress? I'm glad, I guess, that they did not kill her off. She was kind of an interesting character. And Tyler/Voq goes with her. That was the resolution, for the moment, of his storyline. However, on AfterTrek it was acknowledged that he will be back in Season 2.

And the Spore Drive...sidelined until Starfleet can come up with a non-human interface. Yet in AfterTrek, the producers said, yeah the technology has problems, but you're never just going to put your Maserati in the garage and never drive it. So I think it will rear its dubious head from time to time.

I enjoyed the scene where Mirror Phillipa beat the stuffings out of L'Rell. It was a good scene plus it reminded us that Michelle Yeoh got her start in martial arts. The banter between her and Michael, about Phillipa growing up in Malaysia, was a nice nod to Michelle, who is from Malaysia in real life.

Oh my God, they found a way to stuff Clint Howard in! But now we have retconned the appearance of the Orions. Unlike Discovery's other retcons, which made aliens look more alien, this made the Orion males look more human. If I recall correctly, the only time we've ever seen Orion males in Star Trek was in Enterprise, and they were very large, like 7 footers, and pretty beefy, plus bald. Now they are completely human looking except for being green. Sigh.

The scene where Tilly is introduced to Mirror Phillipa was pure wonderful nerdy Tilly. I got a good laugh out of it.

On AfterTrek, the producers would not categorically say that Prime Lorca is dead. I imagine they're just keeping their options open. Nor would they say who the new captain of Discovery, who's awaiting pickup on Vulcan, will be. Someone quipped, Captain Lucius Malfoy, to which someone else responded, well at least you have his sizes.

And I have to comment on Discovery's special effects. I think most of the ship-board effects—sets, lighting, holograms, etc.—look great. Exteriors, things in space, etc...not so much. Very cheesy, in fact. Someone asked the producers how they got such a great look on a TV budget and they gave some lame answer, or at least it came across as lame to me because I don't think the exterior effects look good. It's like Star Trek regressed to the effects level of Babylon 5. I'm hoping, naively, that this is at least part due to bandwidth restrictions for streaming, or something like that, and the bluray will look better. But I'm not holding my breath.

So, this is a wrap for the first season of Star Trek's long-awaited return to television. In some ways, we got what I felt Star Trek needed, a show not on regular network TV and not tied to its restrictions, and a limited number of episodes so they could concentrate on telling the best stories possible. How well did the show take advantage of those freedoms? On the first score, other than dropping a couple of F-bombs and a few somewhat grisly scenes early on, I don't know that it took advantage of the non-network format. As to telling the best stories possible, the producers' disregard for visual continuity definitely hampered my ability to judge the stories for what they were. At this point, I think I would limit myself to saying yes I like the show, yes I will buy the bluray, yes I will watch Season 2, but as to trying to rank it against the other shows, it's far too soon for that. It is just so different in feeling. TOS was one show. TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise all felt like part of a continuing story because they were made by a continuing group of producers. And Discovery is something else entirely. I guess only time will tell how well it is accepted by fandom. There are still fans out there who only like TOS and nothing else. I can't imagine they will take warmly to Discovery. But personally I want to keep my mind open about it and not be too mired in the past, no matter how not-your-father's-star-trek this often feels.

I suppose now that the whole season has aired and remains available, I will binge-watch it to see how things feel upon second viewing. This far I have not watched any episode more than once.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Thanks for the link, very interesting tidbits in there. Ironically enough, I did watch After Trek this time. By pure chance while looking at my onscreen channel guide late at night, I realized they do air After Trek locally, but only after the Discovery rerun late Sunday night, not after the prime time one earlier in the day. I found the host much less annoying, mainly because I think the novelty has worn off for him so he's not geeking out as much as he was on the first show. I do feel the questions are very softball though and must be screened before being posed because no one is asking them the hard questions, that's for sure.

Onto the finale itself.

Not a bad episode or way to wrap up the season overall, but it felt very anticlimactic. The return from the Mirror universe, the time jump, and the turn of the Klingon war all had a very ominous feel to it all, but they fixed everything in two hours of airtime and the finale itself didn't pack the punch that it should have. It definitely set things up for an interesting Season 2, but I felt something was lacking.

I too enjoyed the scene where Philippa beats the tar out of L'Rell, just in case we had forgotten how utterly ruthless the character was. The entire charade with her being Prime Philippa was dropped pretty quickly and that was ok because there was no way she was fooling anyone for very long. The majority of the ship was still none the wiser, but I thought the idea was silly to begin with because what, they don't expect the rest of the crew to eventually tell everyone else in Starfleet that Cpt. Georgiou miraculously survived and was on Discovery? Bit of a minor plot hole there. Will be interesting to see if she shows up again. Probably partnered up with the new, uber-evil and psychopathic Harry Mudd.

Just when it seemed Burnham was having second thoughts about her repudiation of Ash, he goes and backslides into full Voq mode again and the whole things ends for her right there. Honestly, I don't think I could ever get over the creepy factor that your lover is a surgically modified Klingon body wearing a flayed human's skin. Memories and personalities be damned, that is just too much yuk factor to accept. Then again, this is Star Trek and minds are very open in this setting. At any rate, I'm glad they found a fitting role for him, though yeah, he'll obviously be back to haunt Burnham again.

Yep, the Orions got updated and reinvented, because hey... like that article says, they have this artistic talent on the show, so why not keep changing things over and over again, because we love having no consistency in what is supposed to be an established universe? At this point, after the Klingons, Tellarites, and Andorians having facelifts, the Orions merely warranted a mere shrug from me at this point. Would be funny if that one dude met Balok and went "Hey... you look awfully familiar!" Also, while we are in homage department, did you catch the two large Ceti eels in the frying pan shot when they beam down to the enclave? It lasts for a split second but I would never mistake those critters for anything else. Their appearance is etched in my mind forever, so horrific were they when I fist saw them.

The weakest part of the entire finale for me was the complete lack of follow-up on the effects of the war. We are left to assume that L'Rell's threat works. We see the Klingon ships pull away from Earth, but what happened with the rest of Federation space? I still remember the tactical map, and they had nothing left. Were the Klingons conquering these worlds or just bombing the crap out of everything and moving on? Either way, it would take many years to recover from devastation like that, which brings me back to my earlier bone of contention of them making this such a major event that then apparently leaves no traces in just nine years' time from now. Remember all the Starbases and Federation outposts that the Enterprise visits in TOS? Apparently that stuff is built very cheaply and quickly because everything was nearly destroyed in this big war, yet it's all there again in less than a decade. Major plot hole. Also, I guess the Enterprise and its sister ships were all hiding somewhere because they clearly survived this war that supposedly decimated the fleet?!? Ok. This is definitely a screw-you-continuity Prime universe then.

The big Enterprise reveal: I actually had no idea it was going to happen, but was very much beginning to wonder where this ship would be found in the middle of all this. As soon as that distress call came in at the end, even before the registration number begins appearing on the screen, I knew it had to be the Enterprise. I was 100% positive it wasn't going to look the same as it did in TOS, so I wasn't bitterly disappointed when I was proven right. Though it looks way more modern than it should, at least the look is consistent with Discovery and the other Starfleet vessels around. As much as it would have pleased us old fans, the old Enterprise would have looked glaringly out of place now. Even the Defiant in ST: Enterprise looked outdated already, although I loved seeing it without any 'fancifications' added. If anything, I will consider myself happy that it essentially looks like a blend of the TOS and movie-era Enterprises, rather than that bloated monstrosity they came up with for the JJverse movies. Just being thankful for the small things, I suppose.

The article pretty much spells out that we should forget about seeing Spock, and I concur. I think recasting yet again could go wrong very quickly, and they can easily come up with an excuse that he is not on the ship at this time. It would just be too distracting to see him in this setting. As for the Spock-never-mentions-Burnham thing, I share your skepticism in thinking that the explanation is going to feel forced and stupid somehow. My bet is they don't even know what they're going to do yet and are just trying to sound clever for the viewers' benefit. I can smell nervousness and uncertainty a mile away. :rolleye:

What I'm most curious about is who the new captain is. The fact that they are picking this person up in Vulcan seems to point to the obvious race of the character, but I think they will try and surprise us. I noticed they danced around answering whether it would be a new old character or someone we don't know. If it somehow turns out to be Prime Lorca magically returned alive and well from the Mirror universe, I think I will turn the TV off and be done with this show.

Final though: retire the Spore drive, PLEASE! It is too Deus Ex for the show to continue abusing it.
This Space for Rent

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Yes I did spot the Ceti eels in the skillet. Beyond thinking they probably wouldn’t taste very good, they struck me as a dangerous creature to have a taste for. Do you eat them, or do they turn the tables and eat you?

Right now I am in the sixth episode of my Discovery rewatch and enjoying it very much. Many things are totally obvious in the blazing light of hindsight.

More thoughts tomorrow hopefully....
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Overall I really found myself enjoying the new series. One thing that I absolutely loved about the new series is how serialized it is. I loved each episode picking up right after each other. I know the other series had some longer arcs, but most of the episodes are stand alone. I really liked the twist with Lorca being from the mirror universe. I figured there was something up with Ash, although I fell for the "brain washed sleeper agent" scenario, not a klingon wearing Ash skin.

I both like the "modern" take on Trek but at times it pulled me out of "Trek." For instance, I am going to call it the Orion strip club. Dont get me wrong, I love a half naked green lady as much as the next guy, but is it Trek? Philippa wanting a 3some (I assume), Tilly saying she was really high... it get Trek kind of echos current society-ish, but I dunno, its not "Trek"-y to me, but those are minor things.

I am mainly curious as to how this spore drive technology "goes away." Clearly we dont have it by the time TOS starts (I am going under the assumption that this IS the prime universe). I dont really mind the modern look of the Enterprise, as we have modern technology today. The NX-01 looked more modern than the TOS era enterprise. At least the Enterprise isn't a million times bigger than its supposed to be (looking at you JJ-verse). I have to admit, tho, I did have a smile on my face when I saw the NCC 170 on the screen and when it appeared, the nostalgia was definitely there, for me at least.

I have to echo the thoughts on the swift wrap up on the Klingon war, seems a very quick and ho hum resolution to the entire season arc, as well as the question Val brought up, how are we going to get to the TOS status quo of star bases and ships in the next 10 years?
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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A few days ago I finished my binge-rewatch of Discovery and really, really liked it. I think the serialized nature of it makes it more enjoyable by binge-watch vs. one episode per week. Also, knowing what to expect on this second go-around made it all go down more smoothly.

Some fans have been critical of its darker tone. The producers have made a statement to the effect that it had to be this way to have a chance to survive, as this is how TV is now. I imagine that was a reference to Game of Thrones, among others probably. I don't think Discovery was overly dark; I'd say they struck a good balance between a dark tone and what one might think of as a sunnier, more Star Trek tone. And when we get right down to it, Star Trek always had some very dark story lines: the Dominion War, the Xindi arc, the Borg, and so forth. I'd say the bigger difference here was not so much tone, but the willingness to kill of major or semi-major characters.

Some things still bother me about it, the Klingons for one. In general I would applaud a sci fi show more making aliens seem more alien and less like actors with a few bumps on their noses. And I don't mind reasonable upgrades to the appearance of established alien races, such as how Enterprise gave the Andorians mobile antennae. But the Klingons are one of the biggest alien races in all of Star Trek; I would say the biggest, but for the Vulcans. As such, any change to them should have been vary carefully, soberly considered. And such a careful, sober consideration should have noted that Enterprise gave a perfect explanation for the difference between TOS' human-looking Klingons and the ridge-headed Klingons in all the rest of Star Trek. The fact that Discovery chose to throw that away says that either the producers didn't know about the Enterprise Klingon 2-parter, or they didn't care. I'm not sure which explanation is worse! So, it is an annoyance, but I think it will be a minor one that shouldn't detract from my overall enjoyment of the show. And there's always the chance they will do something that addresses this. Some time back, they said that all apparent divergences from canon would be explained at some point. I hope they make good on that.

And of course, at some point the Spore Drive needs to be put to bed. I hope it gets a more definitive retirement than transwarp did. The Excelsior was supposed to have transwarp. Scotty sabotaged it. Did Starfleet not realize there was sabotage? Did they just assumed the technology failed, and then chose never to look back on it? That was never explained. Later on, the concept of transwarp was adapted to be something that was rather different, that only the Borg had, in conjunction with their transwarp conduits. But how that compared to the earlier Federation technology was never addressed. So anyway, I hope Discovery does a better job retiring Spore Drive. And totally, completely retired it must be...or otherwise Voyager could simply have designed and built themselves a spore hub, and returned home from the Delta Quadrant instantly.

Until then, bring on the Bluray!
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
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