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Hmm... Ok, cool and all, but:

Does the deletion of the scene mean this event never happened then? They said they want to save Section 31 for season 2, which is fine, but what happens to the Georgiou connection then? Will this scene be shown later, or are they dropping this particular thread altogether? Or will she still show up but without the benefit of this scene to make things official? Very vague.
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I've only seen him in Inhumans, and thought the show itself was rather lacking, he was underutilized and his acting was hampered by the fact his character, Black Bolt, was mute. I've heard good things though and he might well prove to be an excellent choice.

Back when they were casting for JJ's first Trek movie, I always thought Ray Liotta would have been the perfect dead ringer for Jeffrey Hunter. He's much too old for role now though.
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Valkrist wrote: Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:57 pm I've only seen him in Inhumans, and thought the show itself was rather lacking, he was underutilized and his acting was hampered by the fact his character, Black Bolt, was mute. I've heard good things though and he might well prove to be an excellent choice.

Back when they were casting for JJ's first Trek movie, I always thought Ray Liotta would have been the perfect dead ringer for Jeffrey Hunter. He's much too old for role now though.
I will forever see him as the Goodfellas punk Henry Hill.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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And more good news: Discovery WILL be released on Blu Ray and DVD, streeting Nov 13 in the US and Canada and available for preorder Aug 6, supposedly.

Some might ask, why is this surprising? While I assumed it would come out on BD and DVD, it wasn't a given. Studios are trying to move away from physical media, and CBS could figure that by denying a physical release, they could force fans to continue subscribing to All Access to rewatch the show. But apparently they chose not to be that cynical, so yeah!
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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That's got to be the lamest, ret-conning, most back-pedalling explanation I've ever heard.

Translation: Because messing with the look, culture, and aesthetic of an established and instantly recognizable alien race was the single biggest complaint levelled at our show, we are excusing it all away on a throwaway line of dialogue from TNG decades ago, re-interpret it, feed it to the fans like we know what we're talking about, and slowly and smugly ease in some Klingons that people may recognize a little more than the vocally-challenged, uniformly bald, and religiously fanatic weirdos that we got. Nothing to see here folks!

Also, I call BS on that comment that we only saw six Houses represented. Pretty sure one of those initial episodes showed ALL of the Klingon House heads in holographic form, and they ALL had the new look. Either that or they are now retconning that also to say that there are more Houses we haven't seen when the dialogue at the time clearly indicated that ALL Houses were present. :rolleye:
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The thing that bothered me the most in the run-up to Discovery's premiere was realizing they'd changed the Klingons yet again (well that and worrying how Abrams-verse this would be). Enterprise perfectly addressed the reason for the disparity between TOS Klingons and Klingons in all the rest of Star Trek...and then the new show comes along and ignores that. The producers claim that all their writers are uber-Trek fans and well versed in the lore, so when they pull something like changing the Klingons back to ridgy just before the time of TOS makes that claim sound preposterous. I also find it hard to believe that when they did so, they were aware of the Enterprise plot point and planned a way to get back to smooth Klingons at some point during Discovery's run, recent statements notwithstanding. I see nothing in the recent statement that conclusively indicates they are going to change their appearance in any way other than wardrobe and letting their hair grow out. I also agree that the implication that the different houses look drastically different and we only saw half a dozen so far. I also thought we saw all 24 holographically on the bridge of the Ship of the Dead, and none looked remotely Worf-like, hair or no hair.

All that said, once I got used to the look of the newly designed Klingons in Season 1, I liked them, continuity problems aside. They look much more alien than Klingons ever have before. (Pretty hard to imagine any of this bunch achieving sex symbol status like Worf, "the Tom Selleck of Klingons," as Michael Dorn put it.) Does that justify the change? No, not to me. But they didn't consult with me, alas.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I wasn’t a huge fan of after trek but it was mildly entertaining. The highlight for me was when Jason Isaacs said we were living in the mirror universe, which is pretty well true.

Anyway, I thought it was neat that there was a weekly snow to talk about a Star Trek show. And now they’ve ditched it in favor of Facebook.

Re the premiere, it was ok. I need to rewatch before I form an opinion.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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OK so I have seen the first two episodes and have a few more thoughts. The opener seemed to be big on flash and spectacle. It seems a hallmark of this series may be circumstances where you can't beam to a destination, or take a shuttle to it, but you can take a powered space suit or a work pod, with all the added peril that implies. I wasn't sure why the work pods, which they boarded in the hanger, then had to go through a long channel to exit Discovery.

Anyway, the episode was interesting, as it is starting to fill in the backstory between Michael and Spock. Young Spock seemed rather bratty...hardly a desirable Vulcan attribute.

I'm interested to see how I end up liking the new Pike. Between the two new episodes of Discovery plus the first two Abramsverse movies, we've seen far more Pike than we ever saw in TOS. The Pike of TOS, I thought, was rather a pain in the ass. He always seemed to be in a bad mood, even before he was captured. Of course, he was supposed to be emotionally frazzled from recently having been through a harrowing battle. The Pike of the Abramsverse was very fatherly and definitely someone you'd want on your side, particularly when it came time to correcting your screwups. The new Pike seems like he's going to share some of those fatherly qualities.

The producers have said that this season will make it more obvious that Discovery ties in to established Star Trek canon. Thus far this season, we have in the first episode a reference to the crew complement of the Enterprise, 200-something, which corresponds to what was stated in The Cage. In the second episode, we have a reference to WW III in 2053, which ties into First Contact. So, I'm curious if the closer ties to canon we're going to get are of this nature, simple references to established facts from past episodes. In a way, it's hard to imagine there won't be some sort of reference to Pike's encounter with the Talosians.

I thought the second episode was more of a classic Star Trek type of story, since it dealt with Prime Directive issues. Of course, Pike ends up violating the PD by revealing his origins and providing an advanced power source. I guess that puts him into good company, as what Star Trek captains have not violated it at least once?
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Olorin wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:16 amIn a way, it's hard to imagine there won't be some sort of reference to Pike's encounter with the Talosians.
There was (possibly) one in the first episode: when Pike looks at the little piece of paper from the fortune cookie in his cabin, it reads "Not every cage is a prison, not every loss eternal."

Now, because it was established that Lorca (Prime and Mirror) had a connection to fortune cookies, it's easy to understand where that fortune came from (although I find it hard to believe no one cleaned up his quarters?!?) Anyway, a lot of fans seem to be reading into this as it being a foreshadowing that Lorca will return (please no - can we just be done with the recurring villain shtick?). However, some, myself included, think it is an obvious reference to Vina and The Cage, the original pilot of TOS with Pike and Talos IV. Just my two cents.

I've only seen the first episode thus far so I'll provide some more thoughts after I've seen the second one, but yes, it was a lot of flash over substance, and I find the Tilly-based humour is becoming irritating very quickly. I liked the character, but she's wearing out the welcome with the constant geekiness and mouth-running.
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Oh yeah, I forgot about the fortune cookie. I think I dimly perceived that as a reference to the Talosian incident. But mostly I received it as a tie-back to Lorca, to remind everyone he had been the captain but now Pike would be. As far as cleaning up his quarters, I'm pretty sure that was the ready room, and I think the fact that there was still a fortune lying around was simply a reference to the fact that Admiral Cornwell had blasted the bowl of cookies out of disgust over Lorca. The fact that it was still lying there to me suggests that no one went in Lorca's ready room after that. They are all supposed to be weirded out over the fact that someone from the Mirror Universe duped and manipulated all of them, so I suppose his ready room would be viewed as though it were haunted or something.

I would not take it as a harbinger of Lorca's return. Mirror Lorca is dead and will not be coming back...the producers have said that. Prime Lorca could still be out there. I think in the reality of the show they believe he is dead. However, that was never conclusively established. So Prime Lorca could show up. But I don't really look for that to happen. I think that the ship is simply going to have a different captain each season until Burnham becomes captain. And yes, I think she will definitely become the captain eventually. She's the main character and although much was made over the fact that this was Star Trek's first lead character who wasn't the captain, it's clear that that is her arc. Moreover, prior to or early in the first season, one of the producers slipped during an interview and said "she's not the captain yet." [emphasis added]
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Watched New Eden tonight.

Overall it was a good episode and it felt more like Trek than most of season one did. The scenes on the planet were very evocative of the best of TOS and TNG. Part of that was of course the fact that discovering a planet with humans in a very remote part of the galaxy surrounded by a mystery as to how they got there was always one of my favourite go-to plots in the older series. Conversely, it's hard to imagine how episodes like Patterns of Force and Bread & Circuses would translate to ST: Discovery. I always entertain myself with the thought that, somewhere out there, Kirk and the Enterprise have yet to discover these places.

At any rate, loving the inclusion of Pike, and I find myself wishing that he could stick around longer than what will probably just be the one season. I'm so not looking forward at all to having Spock come along to further muddy the narrative and introduce new backstory elements to a character whose story has been told well enough already. I'll continue to argue that it was a very short-sighted copout and lack of confidence on the part of the writers and producers to shoehorn the connection between Burnham and Spock. It really comes across as them not being confident enough that this character, crew, ship, and show could stand on its own unless there was a clear connection to something that we know and love well.

Of course, and completely unsurprisingly, it took them all of two episodes to bring the Spore Drive back. If all it takes is a captain saying "well, we should use it because... why not?" then I can't see how we'll ever be rid of this thing. Like Spock, the Spore Drive is a crutch that needs to go as I feel it really diminishes the show, is too much of a Deus Ex Machina plot device, and kinda retroactively ruins the believability of all the warp advances on the shows that take place in subsequent years in the timeline. I foresee one of two outcomes: either Section 31 gets a hold of this tech and buries it as too dangerous, or the USS Discovery is doomed to be destroyed at some point or at the end of the series.
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Re: the spore drive, let's hope it's the former, not the latter. I love this crew too much for them to suffer a tragic end.

Re: the Captain, I don't see any captain lasting more than a season till Burnham becomes captain. The Captain of the Discovery is to Star Trek as the Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher is to Hogwarts.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Well, when I mentioned the Discovery being destroyed, I didn't include the crew, though we are in an age where some TV shows have become so edgy that they could very well do that. No, I see it as something more akin to the current ship suffering some mishap or tragedy while the crew survives somehow, and then there being a Discovery B, just like the Enterprise went through various incarnations. It would neatly solve the problem of the spore drive without having to come up with a different name for the show. As it stands, it seems obvious they are setting up Tilly as an alternative human interface with the drive. Stamets said he was leaving Discovery, but unless that's a red herring, they are hedging their bets with Tilly.

CBS, are you listening? My writing talents are for hire. :laugh:
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I don't believe he's leaving either, but I did wonder when not only the Tilly angle was introduced, but then the chief engineer from the USS Hiawatha is brought aboard Discovery in what is sure to be a recurring role. Also, wasn't the surviving crew member from the Enterprise that came with Pike an engineer as well?
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I don't know why they have to cheese it up with all the faux drama. Small spoiler for Thursday's ep if you haven't seen it....



A ship is approaching. They don't know what the ship is. It's only broadcasting that it's a diplomatic vessel, which is apparently all that's required. Someone says, "that's a Vulcan ship." Michael says, "that's Sarek's ship." She goes to the transporter room to meet him and looks surprised after materialization. It's not Sarek, it's Amanda. Compare and contrast with a Next Gen episode, where it begins with a voiceover from Troi, who simply says, "my mother is on board." Of course, the relationship between the two mothers and their respective daughters is different but still, why make a mystery out of something that's not essential to the plot?

Speaking of Amanda, was it just me, or was she pissed when she left the ship?
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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So, the overly dramatic tone of the episodes continues. As for this week's episode, I like that they are filling in a bit more of Saru's enigmatic background. I was also intrigued a bit by the Baul creature. It reminded me of a cross between the oil slick monster that killed Tasha Yar and Meg Mucklebones from Ridley Scott's Legend.

In any case, I think that so far the hands-down best episode of the season has been New Eden.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Yeah I wondered how they’d bring them back. But now I know!

I’m guessing they must keep Culber’s resurrection a secret from the rest of the galaxy. Otherwise it invalidates McCoy’s line to Spock in STIV: “You really have gone where no man has gone before!” Which reminds me, apparently we now have another reason why the spore drive must be abandoned: it harms the mycelial life forms.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Well, I wasn't thinking they would come back. I prefer some permanence in my shows, so when death and being outed as a Klingon spy are normally things of great consequence that can be this conveniently undone, I start to lose faith in said show. To me it just paves the way for feeling that any momentous event can and will be just a temporary thing depending on the whim of the writers.

If the goal is to maintain the status quo and thus prevent the growth of the characters affected by these events, then the events themselves lose any meaning, therefore why bother getting emotionally invested in them?

Meh.

Yeah, New Eden was the high water mark of this season and the bar is only dropping now. The whole 'Spock on the run' plot is becoming tiresome also and I'm beginning to doubt the payoff will ultimately matter or it will be some new continuity-breaking thing.
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On the Spock thing, I guess it almost goes without saying that if it’s big enough, it’ll feel like it breaks continuity, otherwise how could we not have already known? Like having a foster sister. Or a half brother. Or a hostle race has attacked Earth and it took a season-long quest to thwart them. It’s unavoidable when doing prequels, which is a reason why I tend not to like prequels. Once I’m confronted with one. I suppose I simple accept that such things will happen, and just go with them.

As for Ash Tyler, he was a major character so I never expected he wouldn’t be back. As for Culber, the producers repeatedly said “keep the faith,” so above and beyond the fact that he was half of the franchise’s first gay couple, I knew he’d be back. Whether such characters should come back, lessening consequences in the process, is a valid question. But this is Star Trek, so the return of dead or inconvenienced characters is pretty much as much of a given as that of the Terminator.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I am liking the show overall. I like the serialized nature as opposed to stand alone episodes we know from past Trek.

I do agree with prequels adding background that you would think would have been addressed, a la Spock's foster sister, you'd think it would have come up in some sort of conversation. I am going to assume that the spore drive becomes discontinued and is a Section 31 secret or something.

I am loving Pike, they should just give that man his own show!
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Yep, prequels to long-established universes will always cause problems.

On Tyler's return, I should clarify: I didn't mean I expected we would never see him again; quite the contrary, in fact. When he came back and they showed the scenes with the Klingons' internal politics, that was exactly what I was expecting. When he then joined Section 31, it still made sense and I thought it was a neat development. What I meant by saying I never expected to see him back, it was wearing a Starfleet uniform and standing on the bridge of the Discovery as a de facto member of the crew once again. Sure some people will see that as some kind of poetic full-circle thing, but to me it just smacks of zero consequences and growth for the characters and series. How much do you want to bet that he and Burnham get involved again in some fashion?

As for Dr. Culber, I really don't read much of the online stuff on this show or paid any attention to After Trek, so when you say the producers had already been babbling about sitting tight on that, I just have to roll my eyes. Firstly, these suit-types like to talk a lot out of their you-know-whats in order create hype and excitement, and it can often be misleading in the sense that it either doesn't happen or it's something else altogether. I guess in this case they delivered. The other thing that bothers me is this artificial notion that millions of viewers were crying out for Dr. Culber's return. I'm sorry... who? He was a minor character at best, and his death, however sad and shocking, provided Stammets with a much-needed attitude wake-up call and opportunity for emotional development. Instead they undo all that in the name of protecting the sanctity of Discovery's gay couple... because there couldn't possibly be another gay man in the galaxy for Stammets to eventually fall in love with?

Yes, it's Star Trek, and there is the word 'fiction' in science fiction, and this is not the first time we've seen a dead character return, but do it often enough and you are in danger of trivializing the event. If a universe repeatedly tells you there are no stakes, where is the sense of danger and permanency? The only redeeming thing in all this is that there are some initial hints that something is not quite right with the good doctor. Perhaps his return is only temporary, or his feelings for Stammets are changed, making his partner relive the heartbreak of losing him once more. Time will tell, but my faith in the writing is rapidly declining. I'm hoping Spock can lift this show out of the approaching quagmire, but I have my doubts because it's really sad if this show has to rely on an established TOS character for ratings and an interesting story.

And yes, BC, Pike should 100% get his own show. Pity Anson Mount's already been tweeting about being unemployed again, a clear indication that his work on the show has wrapped.
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Yeah I guess Tyler’s return to the ship was a little quick and slick, and yeah he and Burnham will probably hook up again, but I guess if it’s going to happen, why draw it out? ;)

As for Culber and Stamets, I’m not feeling that one so much, either. They weren’t established that much yet in the viewers’ hearts, or at least mine when he was killed, to merit such a clamoring, other factors being equal. Also, for being Star Trek’s first gay couple, Stamets is surprisingly obnoxious, and Culber is into opera? Isn’t that a little...stereotypical? (The opera part) But hey, they’re start Trek’s first gay couple sk you know they’re not going to get split up right out of the starting gate. Remember when the TNG second season opener killed a crew member, and Majel Barrett said, you killed a redshirt and he was a minority??? Not gonna happen again! ;)
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Yes, things just took a very interesting turn. These events (or whatever we are about to witness) must've taken place before General Order 7 was instituted otherwise it doesn't make sense that the nav computer wouldn't automatically throw up a dire warning that would make Burnham think twice.

In fact, speculation already abounds that whatever happens during this new visit IS what results in General Order 7, and not the Enterprise's prior visit. Recall that not even Commodore Mendez knew what warranted Starfleet's only death penalty. Even if he was later proven to be a Talosian illusion, it seems clear his personality and memories were drawn from the real Mendez, wherever he was.

Also, did anyone else feel that probe was behaving suspiciously like Borg technology? It's just the sort of thing and tactics they would use. I kept trying to remember if we've seen those three red dots before but came up empty. Guesses?
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The #1 pop culture reference I got from the probe was The Matrix. It was totally like one of the sentinels.

When I'd heard that Pike was going to be in this season, I hoped there'd be at least some reference to the Talos IV affair, if only him talking about how he processed and dealt with his experiences. I could only dream that we'd return to Talos and see the Talosians again. I suppose the Borg are the ultimate big bad of Star Trek races, but the Talosians are right up there. To be able to roll someone's mind so completely into an illusion is a really frightening power. How could you ever know you were back to reality and not just in an induced fantasy? (In this way, Star Trek prefigured Nolan's Inception by many decades.)

I also read the rumors that the new experiences with the Talosians will be what results in General Order 7. It makes sense, because as you point out, the computer doesn't warn, and Michael has never heard of Talos. What this may be, that will be even scarier than the Enterprise's visit, who knows? I've always thought there was great dramatic potential in revisiting this world, and now we're going to find out.

Let's hope they don't screw it up! I know one thing up front that will be different is how it looks. The set and matte painting for Talos in The Cage had a very distinctive look, with the gloomy and oppressive sky. From the teaser for next week, it looks like they're simply going to be in the same quarry where the Mirror Universe rebel planet episode was shot, and under a bright sun at that. But in any event, I'm very much anticipating this episode.

On a slightly different topic, this one pertaining to the myriad new Star Trek series in development. I suppose if there's one character I'd like to see revisited it's Picard, so it's great they're going to do that. But in terms of other revisits, coupled with prequels, I'd be totally on board for a series with Captain Pike aboard the Enterprise. I find I'm really liking Anson Mount in the role. He looks sufficiently like Jeffrey Hunter and plays the part with a much more amiable demeanor and charisma. And we have the original Mystique herself, Rebecca Romijn, as Number One. I think there's a lot of potential there. The series could pick up after Pike returns to the Enterprise after his stint on Discovery, and run until such time as he turns over command to Kirk.

Thoughts?
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I also thought of the Matrix and V'ger.

The Matrix was purely from a visual imagery standpoint. Since this isn't that universe, I immediately dismissed it from my mind. The idea of a probe coming back to its makers in a more advanced form was of course explored in the TOS episode 'The Changeling', and later in STTMP with V'ger. What made the Borg connection strong for me was the way the alien tech insinuated itself into the shuttle's controls, the frantic searching of the database and viral connection to the bridge crewmember, and the bio-mechanical nature of the altered probe. Ironically, in Shatner's novel The Return, it is revealed that the machine planet that repairs and upgrades Voyager 6 to send it back as V'ger was a Borg planet.

My wife and I re-watched 'The Menagerie' parts 1 and 2 today to prepare for the coming episode. She had only seen bits of it before and I wanted it to be fresh in our minds as we return to Talos IV. Very curious to see where they are going with this, and how the revamped planet and Talosians will be depicted after 50 years. I also wonder if we will see Vina and who they chose to play the part.

Discovery rant of the day: what is up with the ship's turbolift system?!? I don't recall seeing this in the first season, but at least twice now they've shown what looks like this cavernous space, containing a multitude of suspended tracks and along which the various turbolifts on the Discovery travel. The whole thing looks like a giant cavern with a bunch of nearly free-floating, roller-coaster cars careening wildly about. This is not at all feasible nor what I ever pictured the turboshafts looking like. We've seen them in TNG and a few of the movies and, surprise: they are much like contemporary, self-enclosed elevator shafts. The ship isn't so big that this massive empty space would exist inside it, especially one that has to reach every corner of the ship. I just don't get the idea behind this completely whacky and unrealistic visualization. Not only does it look unsafe (given what a starship is sometimes subjected to) but also extremely impractical from a functional and space-requirement standpoint. This ranks right up there with the Abramsverse Enterprise engine room looking like a giant beer brewery, complete with boilers. What are these people thinking? This is not the Alien or Star Wars universe, so quit trying to go there.
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Yeah I don't know what's up with the roller coaster room. I wasn't interpreting that as turbolifts, as the first time it was shown, it was when they were taking the work pods to explore the asteroid. I thought really? They're in the hanger bay already but they have to go through crazy room in the ship's guts? Don't recall how it was used in this week's episode.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
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