Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

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After all the SW: A New Hope - SW: Force Awakens parallels and similarities, I'm very wary of this movie until such time as I walk out of the theatre. All I see when I watch Luke apparently mentoring Rey is Yoda doing the same with Luke in Empire. If the movie opens with a First Order attack on the Resistance base, we should be prepared for a rehash of Empire Strikes Back. With Ren assuming the mantle of Vader and Snooke as the shadowy emperor-like figure, this new trilogy feels very tired already and we're just one movie in. Seems formulae are impossible to break and originality continues to illude Hollywood writers.

Given how repetitive the theme of Jedi always training Jedi in these movies has become, I think it's time to cheer when Luke says in the trailer that it's time for the Jedi to end. He seems to be the only one with any wisdom, however tempered by cynicism and failure it might be.
This Space for Rent

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And I was hoping that after all the New Hope rehashing they felt they had to do last time around to reintroduce Star Wars (gimme a frickin' break!), they'd move on to something more original this time, but it doesn't look that way.

It's risky to generalize from just one "anthology" movie, but based on Rogue One maybe the "anthology" movies are going to be the ones to catch in this era of Star Wars.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

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I am still pretty excited about The Last Jedi, maybe because Luke Skywalker is back, I don't know. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE a new story, more than rehashed plotlines. Star Wars is very cyclical, lots and lots of reused plot points... but The Force Awakens was pretty much A New Hope down to the desert planet :P

The one thing I am more disappointed in is the title of the film, for everything cyclical and pattern focused in Star Wars, this movie breaks the entire pattern:

Episodes 1 and 4 were 3 word titles describing someone or some abstract thing "The Phantom Menace" and "A New Hope"
Episodes 2 and 5 were 4 word titles describing an action of a group, "Attack of the Clones" and "The Empire Strikes Back"
Episodes 3 and 6 were 4 word titles again, "Revenge of the Sith" and "Return of the Jedi"

Episode 7 started the cycle again, following the pattern of 1 and 4, with "The Force Awakens"

Now we have Episode 8 "The Last Jedi" The Last Jedi actually fit better with the movie 2 and 5 pattern.

Or Maybe I am putting too much thought towards the movie titles.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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TFA's originality lay in its characters, not its story. It was intended to be a soft reboot to the franchise, and though we of course need no re-introduction, it has successfully expanded the Star Wars fanbase and I think it deserves credit for introducing great new characters and expanding upon the personal stories of characters we've met before. It's interesting, because Rogue One is the mirror opposite of TFA. It has a strong new story, but is lacking in its character development - even though it has a terrific cast.

Rian Johnson has said that TLJ won't be a rehash of ESB, though I think there will be familiar plot points. I'm really looking forward to seeing the movie. We're clearly going to be exploring the Jedi prophecy, and hopefully this movie will make the Jedi compelling characters again. Part of me wants the Jedi to end tbh, just like the Sith seemingly have done so far in this new trilogy.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Oh I definitely agree with you on TFA introducing some great new characters to carry us forward, but that doesn't negate the fact that they were saddled with a retelling of ANH. To me, that was a serious disservice to both the fans and those new characters, mired in the same old story. I'd still like to meet the genius who figured Star Wars needed 'reintroducing'. It's very simple: just make a good, original movie in plot, and not just characters - if people new to the SW universe like it enough, and they should if the movie is good - then they can go back and discover the originals for the first time.

This reminds me of my worst nightmare: "Man, those novelizations of the Lord of the Rings movies were utter crap! PJ rules, that hack JRRT sucks!"

By rehashing ANH for a new generation with TFA, it can potentially make them think that ANH is now a poor man's imitation of TFA. People think in stupid ways like that, because the brain is seizing on the similarities and drawing comparisons.

As for Rogue One, I don't care one bit that the characters didn't receive a lot of development. That was never the point or goal of the movie since everyone going in should know that by definition, none of them would survive or they would have been key players in the subsequent story. I think the writers were very wise not to waste a lot of screen time on exposition and backstory for a bunch of people that are going to be dead in two hours. The best part is that even not doing that, I still ended up caring a lot about them and was sad as each one fell. That, to me, is a good movie.
This Space for Rent

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

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Olorin wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:22 am So am I the only one who's seen it so far?
Nope. I thought it was a very great movie. Very different from TFA. Although it makes me miss Carrie Fisher so much more.

I don’t want to go into spoilers just yet, but what were your thoughts Olorin?
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

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I also won't get into spoilers yet. I will say, guardedly, that I enjoyed it. Or phrased another way, I liked it much better on first viewing than TFA. But bear in mind, I pretty much hated TFA the first time, and still after 2 years don't think it's a very good movie. So the bar was set pretty low for TLJ; my expectations were very muted.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

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Going next Friday.

I too felt TFA was a massive letdown after waiting so many years for this story to continue, but then they were never going to live up to expectations no matter what they tried. I've warmed a bit more to it since, but still see it as a squandered opportunity.

I'm avoiding spoilers like the plague for TLJ, but I do know that in a strange reversal, critics are falling all over themselves for this movie, while fans seem evenly split, revealing that it is a very polarizing movie that basically craps all over SW canon and rules. Very curious to find out what that means but I know myself well enough to fear it will not bode well for my enjoyment.

Also, calling it the best SW movie since ESB is not actually that huge of a deal considering the dreck prequels that followed, but it is a bit encouraging. Poor ROTJ gets not love... stupid Ewoks!
This Space for Rent

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

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It's definitely a prerequisite to go into this or any latter-day SW movie with the knowledge that no SW movie will ever make you feel [insert age when you first saw Star Wars] again.

I'll be curious to hear at some point how/why some fans felt it crapped all over canon/rules. I didn't pick up on that myself but maybe it's just another sign how out of tune I am with Star Wars any more.

I also saw at least one reference to TLJ being "the best SW since TESB," LOL. I think that distinction has been awarded to every SW movie since AOTC. And yes, I think the Ewoks are the main thing that causes ROTJ to be overlooked. The Ewoks were not its only sin, but they were the lightning rod.

If I were to rate the SW movies right at this point in time, I'd rank them, best to worst, as follows.

TESB
ANH
ROTJ
Rogue One
AOTC
ROTS
TLJ
TFA
TPM

Yes, you read right. I like some of the prequels better than Eps 7 and 8. In fact, who knows, I might like TPM better than the new movies. It was pretty darn lame but it didn't kill Han Solo and it wasn't totally derivative of ANH...at least not to the extent that TFA was.

Lucas' horrible dialogue and inability to coax decent performances out of actors were huge albatrosses around the necks of all the prequels, but overall I like the story arc of the prequels better than the sequel trilogy (thus far). I don't know what Lucas' story idea for the sequel trilogy was (Disney chose to disregard it), but what I did not want to see was our old heroes having to fight the Imperial Remnant. That's an EU term of course, but it is what the First Order is. I'd much have preferred, rather than still fighting the Empire, or fighting the Empire again, that after 30 years the Republic would face off against a different adversary. How depressing is it to have to keep fighting the same bad guys again? You never really win...you may knock them down for a while but they keep coming back. Depressing. Too much like real life...which is not what I'm looking for when I go to see Star Wars.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I can’t think of how it breaks the canon. It adds things to the canon, but I’m struggling to see how it breaks canon. Remember though, some internet fanboys are still sore that Disney scrapped the old EU and in their heads those were the ‘canon’ stories.

This story is definitely very different but I honestly loved this so much. I read the story before I saw the movie and honestly considered not going but when you see the way it is executed and the performances Rian got from his actors, it’s done so beautifully.

I feel like there’s a certain nod to the KOTOR games so if anyone is a fan they’ll most likely pick up on that, though it is very subtle.

Star Wars has definitely gotten a little darker Olorin, but I still think it fits with it being a message for children . Rogue One was far more depressing in my opinion.

My ratings - though I am prepared to be executed for this :P

ESB
TLJ
TFA
TPM
ROTJ
Rogue One
ANH
ROTS
AOTC
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

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Lindir, place your head upon the block. You'll note there's a cup for your chin, padded for your comfort. ;-) TFA, better than ROTJ or ANH, or almost any other SW movie? Well I guess even the roundly loathed prequels had fans who like them better than the OT.

I didn't find Rogue One depressing at all. I mean, it was a foregone conclusion that everyone was going to die, so I didn't get too attached to the characters.

I can't believe you read the TLJ story before seeing it. My appreciation of a movie directly relates to the degree to which I can judge it on its own merits, vs how it relates to some other source, like a source novel or plot synopsis. But I guess if you didn't like what you read and were pleasantly surprised by the movie, it enhanced your estimation of it.

I would not agree that these new movies make Star Wars any darker. Sure, they kill off heroes, but SW has done that from Day One (not to the extent that Game of Thrones does, fortunately). But in all honesty I had been thinking that for the weighty topics the sequel trilogy is handling, it's been handling them in a very light manner, light as a feather. Perhaps that is for the benefit of the kids in the audience, as you allude.

I think you're probably right that fanboys are still upset over the jettisoning of the EU from canon. I thought it was a very crass, cynical, exploitative move, and I wasn't even that heavily invested in it myself. I've read the various Zahn books (Zahn actually used to live here before he moved to Oregon, and I met him once), and some of the others. But pretty early on in the process I consciously quit reading EU books except for Zahn's, as the other authors mostly weren't very good and I wanted to save my precious reading time for worthier things. But I'm sure there were plenty of people very much invested in the EU and for that rug to be suddenly yanked from beneath their feet must have been an outrage. "Forget about the EU; it's just 'Legends.' Here, buy these new books. They're canon, really!"

I think Lucas authorized the EU because he never planned to make the sequel trilogy, so there was no need to keep that turf clear for the stories he wanted to tell. (In fact, there's a belief in some quarters that the original Zahn trilogy was supposed to be what the sequel trilogy would've been, a completely unsubstantiated misconception, to the best of my knowledge.) Now all of a sudden, sequels are being made, but there is an EU that stretches at least 40 years after the time of ANH. Unless they wanted to adapt the EU for film (and I understand why they wouldn't), they had to sweep it away. My problem, however, is they could have been a bit more surgical about it. I would've kept the basic elements of the EU up to the point in time the new movies begin: the Imperial Remnant defeated, Han and Leia married with three kids, Luke married with a kid, etc. Then the stage would be set for them to tell new stories about the Republic facing an adversary other than an Imperial rump state. But I'm sure the powers that be had never read any of the EU and had no interest in adapting any of it (and they may have been obligated to pay additional fees to the authors, though I'd have thought Lucasfilm would've had such things already nailed down in the contracts with the EU authors). In any event, no one asked me, and they did what they did. FWIW, recently I read that Kathleen Kennedy was the one who made the decision to scrap the EU, so perhaps it's she who should bear the fanboys' ire and not the suits at Disney.

Lindir wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:21 pm I can’t think of how it breaks the canon. It adds things to the canon, but I’m struggling to see how it breaks canon. Remember though, some internet fanboys are still sore that Disney scrapped the old EU and in their heads those were the ‘canon’ stories.

This story is definitely very different but I honestly loved this so much. I read the story before I saw the movie and honestly considered not going but when you see the way it is executed and the performances Rian got from his actors, it’s done so beautifully.

I feel like there’s a certain nod to the KOTOR games so if anyone is a fan they’ll most likely pick up on that, though it is very subtle.

Star Wars has definitely gotten a little darker Olorin, but I still think it fits with it being a message for children . Rogue One was far more depressing in my opinion.

My ratings - though I am prepared to be executed for this :P

ESB
TLJ
TFA
TPM
ROTJ
Rogue One
ANH
ROTS
AOTC
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

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Lindir's list is just too whacked for me to even devote more than a glance at it. I mean, Phantom Menace over A New Hope? What meds are you on, and where can I get some?!? :O

Also, just to clarify what I said earlier, nowhere in what I have read did I get the sense that it was "fanboys crying over the loss of the EU." People are over that; they've had two years to deal with it, and it would be silly to be criticizing the second movie for something that was already established in the first: the EU does not count.

No, I'm saying there are some real grievances out there that indicate this movie, in many ways, does not conform to what the average fan has come to expect from Star Wars and that it goes off in some very unexpected directions that left people scratching their heads. Now, some times that can be a good thing, but in the case of this movie and what it means for SW, it is being spoken of in a negative way. I will reserve judgment until I see it, but I will definitely be paying extra attention to see if there's any truth to this.

I've heard as well that there is a lot of humour, which irritates me to no end. It was my single greatest complaint about Thor: Ragnarok, and I fail to see why, unless the movie is billed as an actual comedy, writers and directors today feel the need to insert forced humour into everything, from eye-rolling one-liners, to visual gags, to comic relief-only characters. If I walk into a Star Wars movie, I want to see adventure and fantasy, with tension and drama, not the Marx Brothers in Space. Yeah... yeah... the originals had humour too, but it was used sparingly and to humanize the characters at just the perfect moment. I don't want to see Scooby-doo slapstick antics set to a laugh track and involving BB-8 and Porgs.
This Space for Rent

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

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Valkrist wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:52 am I meant in terms of new elements we hadn't seen before. The Emperor was always cool in my books, but that dates back to the original trilogy.

I would give a half nod to the depiction of Coruscant, which precisely matched my idea of it. Nothing else in that movie was worth saving.
Coruscant was very cool. Unfortunately if they ever film Asimov’s Foundation series, some people will think they based Trantor on Coruscant, when in fact it was the other way around.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

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I saw TLJ yesterday. I was not expecting much after TFA, but hoping we got something good from Rian, as I loved Looper. I don't think I have been this disappointed in a movie since ROTJ. I disliked it so much I almost walked out of the theater before it ended.

Rogue One brought me right back to the good times of SW and my childhood because it truly was a SW movie. TLJ just took a crap all over SW. If that is what Kathleen Kennedy and Lucasfilm think SW is and the type of storylines they want to do, I think I am done with it. I don't have any faith JJ will bring it back around on the next one because all he seems to be able to do is make movies that are the 'greatest hits' from previous movies. The fact that Lucasfilm have fired four directors from the three SW films currently in production does not give me any hope for those either.
KRDS

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Wow, pretty scathing indictment of this movie from someone who's opinion I greatly respect. Not a good omen.

These last couple of days I've read more and more fan reviews that are just like yours, nearly word for word, Kit. A picture is beginning to emerge that tells me there is much more at work here than just a few disgruntled hardcore fans. Three days from seeing this movie and my apprehension continues to grow. To make matters worse, I've read not one but two separate articles now where Johnson has been forced onto the defensive regarding his choices and the direction this movie takes SW in. Let's just say that any time a director has to do this, something stinks. Not only that, he and Disney are now claiming the low fan ratings are due to fake bot accounts and trolls who have an agenda. Rotten Tomatoes has come out swinging saying these claims are ridiculous and untrue and their software security teams can back this up. I guess Disney is getting into the Fake News business as well to protect their golden goose.

Any way you look at It, we're not even one week in and this movie has caused a strong debate and negative reaction, and it's not going away.
This Space for Rent

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This goes to show that what Star Wars means is so different from person to person. Rogue One does not feel like a Star Wars movie to me. It’s overly serious, little in the way of character development (Star Wars doesn’t have great character development I know) and I left feeling miserable. It has its great moments for sure but I always feel down after watching it.

I loved The Last Jedi, I’ve seen it twice now. Everything felt right in my opinion although it certainly had clunkier parts that dragged. But I left feeling happy and with a smile on my face both times. I love how whimsical it is and the humour works for me. The characters feel right although I was initially surprised and disappointed but now I see why Rian took it in this direction and I understand that.

I know I’m clearly in the minority here with that opinion but still I felt the need to share it haha although it might not really amount to much.

I need to say I’m disgusted with some fans for threatening Rian Johnson over this.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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I liked TLJ better than TFA, but that's not saying a lot. TFA left me feeling shell-shocked and hollowed out after the first time I saw it. It improved upon subsequent viewings, but I still rank it near the bottom of the SW movies.

Rogue One, on the other hand, came as close as any latter day SW movie is ever likely to in reminding me that SW was once something to be excited about. It had a serious story that was so much more than the connect-the-dots type of immediate prequel to ANH that I was expecting. It also boasted the most sumptuous visuals ever seen in SW, IMHO.

But I think the bottom line is that SW obviously means different things to different people, and I think there is going to be a generational split on it. Older fans like Val, Kit, and I were weened on the original trilogy and it will always been what SW means. I tolerated the prequels. They embraced the heavy side of SW but failed to capture the lighter side generally. And now the sequels have swung the pendulum the other way, having too light a feeling.

I think for me personally, SW may be over. Certainly, I don't have any expectations for the Skywalker Saga, which is what they call the main sequence movies. I was very pleasantly surprised by the first "anthology" movie, Rogue One, and I'm hoping maybe Solo will be a worthy entry. Certainly it has a good cast. I have big doubts about the putative Boba Fett movie. I've never understood the cult that developed around that character, and however bad-ass he may have seemed in TESB, that all went out the window (and down the Sarlacc Pit) in ROTJ.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Olorin, I think this article illustrates very well your point about the generational gap in watching Star Wars today versus what came before: http://www.darkhorizons.com/hamill-says ... skywalker/

What he is saying about Luke can be said about anything else that the Star Wars universe was versus what it has become. One's appreciation of what this new trilogy is showing us is really coloured by our original experience and relationship with Star Wars based on our age and preference. I accept Lindir's appreciation for TLJ as much as I do Kit's criticism of it; two different sides of the fandom coin, divided by generation and the evolution of film.
This Space for Rent

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LOL, I liked this comment someone posted after the Hamill article:

"In the extended universe, Luke marries a 9/10 redhead, has kids, restarts and reforms the Jedi Order successfully, fights alongside his friends in cool battles, and becomes the most powerful Jedi Grandmaster who ever lived.

In the Last Jedi, Luke thinks about murdering his young nephew, fails to build anything, abandons his friends, doesnt marry and dies a virgin in bitter isolation."
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I forgot how stupid the internet can be. I’m glad we can have a civilised discussion here even though we may disagree. I hate the fact that if you like this film you could very well be branded a liar or a Disney sycophant elsewhere on the web. To be honest I’m thinking of avoiding forums with the exception of this one from now on, especially when it comes to movies.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

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Ok, with Christmas activities dying down I finally have time to post some thoughts on this movie.

*Spoilers ahead*

"Let the past die, kill it!" - Kylo Ren

Well, Rian Johnson certainly accomplished that. By the time The Last Jedi credits rolled and I walked out of the theatre, I felt hollow inside, as if part of me had died along with Luke Skywalker.

Let's tackle the beast head on before moving onto the smaller things: Luke.

I want to start off by saying that I could accept and believe that Luke has turned his back on everything: family, friends, Jedi, Resistance, the galaxy itself. Much can happen in 30 years, enough to completely sour a man and fill him with disillusion, bitterness, and regret. With Johnson's excellent direction, Hamill delivered a beautiful performance that really drove the point across, and I think much of it was fuelled by Hamill's bittersweet and poignant return to a character and setting that have defined his career since 1977. That Hamill himself disagreed with Luke's actions and stance only helped the performance because I can't help but feel that some of that disappointment is evident onscreen and flows naturally into his portrayal of a broken man.

I said "could accept" and not "do accept." and here is where my biggest problem with this movie lies. It would be silly and unrealistic for us to be given a full and detailed account of all the events that befell Luke since the fall of the second Death Star in ROTJ. You could have a whole other trilogy of movies about those lost 30 years and still not cover everything. The glaring flaw here in trying to get us to accept how drastically Luke has changed is that we are given next to nothing in order to get there. Given how firmly established Luke is over the course of three movies as an impulsive, idealistic, caring, and heroic man, it becomes next to impossible to reconcile that with the Luke we are shown in TLJ. What we get is only the barest and briefest of moments, essentially 60 seconds out of 30 years' worth of time in which we are expected to understand why Luke decides to not only walk away from everything he sacrificed so much to accomplish, but also repudiate it so vehemently.

In essence, though the moment is powerful, it doesn't even come close to being enough to get me to accept that Luke would simply give up. We are talking about a guy that refused the Emperor's offer, turned off his light sabre, and placed his life and fate in the hands of Darth Vader, all based on the slim hope and faith that his father would do the right thing despite repeated attempts to murder his own son in the past. Yet later, merely because he sees darkness growing inside his nephew and entertains thoughts of murder during a moment of weakness, he just decides to throw away every single thing he's learned. including the knowledge that he helped Vader achieve redemption in the end? Yes, seeing your nephew gone over to the dark side despite your teachings, watching your school burn down, and your students brutally murdered or turned evil would drive a lesser man to despair, but that man is not the Luke Skywalker we know. The Luke that we know, a man whose life was defined by his optimism and hope, would have retreated, regrouped, and made things right by either attempting to bring Ben Solo back to the light, or ending this new threat to the galaxy if need be. No more was this point driven home than when he tosses the light sabre over his shoulder and down the cliff. Was that sheer moment of gratuitous stupidity really necessary? All I heard around me at that moment were nervous laughs from the audience; people that I knew were just as surprised, confused, and disappointed as I was. Johnson played it for cheap laughs and I hope he's happy. The Luke that accepted his father's light sabre from Ben Kenobi's hands with awe and reverence was dead in that moment. If anything, and to drive the dramatic point home, Luke should have simply dropped it at his feet and walked away slowly. The over the shoulder toss and suffering look of annoyance was tantamount to a declaration of war against fans at that point.

I've read all the reviews and explanations about how this movie is about deconstructing the myth of the hero, and how the legacy of a legend is not always what we should expect. I fully get that and I think it is a fascinating exploration of turning convention on its head. For that kind of innovation and breaking the mold of previous Star Wars movies, I have nothing but praise for Johnson's courage and vision. I just don't feel that we were given sufficient context and believable enough reasons to see the complete destruction of everything Luke Skywalker stood for in the minds of fans that have followed his adventures for 40 years. To my eyes, the flashback to Luke and Ben at the Jedi school was a mere plot driver, devoid of any deeper meaning and exploration necessary to understanding all the complex layers of what we were being shown.

I honestly feel for Mark, who waited so many years to return to this beloved role, to then have to play the character of Luke so radically different from what came before and from what we know he was expecting and hoping for. I also feel for the rest of us, labelled 'fanboys' simply because we wish things had played out the way we imagined it should, and because we are deemed entitled in our ownership of these characters. To that I say "up yours." It is because of us that Star Wars was successful 40 years ago, and it is because of that success that these movies are still being made four decades later. To simply dismiss our opinions as just so much whining and sour grapes is just as offensive to me as the fair-weather moviegoers of today who can't wrap their heads around our love and respect for the legacy of this story.

Watching Luke die closed the book on this universe for me. I don't remember feeling this sad and empty inside while watching a movie since the cinematic death of the only other hero that I hold as dear as Luke, and that was Captain Kirk in Generations. Even Han's death in TFA didn't hit me as hard because as much as I loved that character, to me he was always the sidekick, the wisecracking and more experienced big brother figure to Luke's boyish heroics. To those of us who grew up with the OT, I'll bet almost all identified more with Luke's adventuresome spirit and moral compass than with Han's roguish ways. As hard as it was to bear, I could move past Han's death for the role it played in Kylo's continuing spiral into darkness. Luke's passing however, is impossible to get over. I'm grateful the plot saw fit to redeem him in the end, but without him, I no longer care.

Ok,,, the big one is out of the way. Now the rest.

- The humour: one of my greatest fears going in, but it wasn't as bad as I thought. When it worked, it definitely helped to ground me and remind me that the OT was replete with humour and to be more forgiving here. However, there were a few instances were it grated, fell flat, out of place, and just forced. Nowhere did I find this more glaring than right in the movie's opening scene where Poe, sitting in his X-Wing, makes a complete and utter buffoon out of General Hux. It was stupid, plain and simple. No one can defend that scene to me, no matter what you say or do. Given the seriousness of the situation, the dire peril of the Resistance, the sour and humourless nature of the First Order, and the dramatic tension one hopes to achieve when hundreds of lives are about to be lost, one pilot's smartass banter and slapstick humour was worse than nails on a chalkboard. It got the movie off to the wrong foot for me, and it was tough to come back from that. Then there were just the plain "What the...?" moments like Luke milking the giant alien nipple. Seriously, we're stooping that low for laughs? That was just plain awkward and unfunny on too many levels.

- Porgs: not even close to what I expected. I was pleasantly surprised to be ok with the little guys and re-embrace that side of Star Wars that is cute and makes you smile.

- Unexplained things and glaring mistakes:

I loved the look of the new B-Wing bombers but... in the vacuum of space, where there is no gravity, where is the logic of bombs that drop from a hold and seemingly behave as if they are in an atmosphere? I'm sure it can be explained that they were guided somehow, but Johnson was clearly going for the WW2 vibe here, and literally dropping bombs in space is a ridiculous concept. This is why they used proton torpedoes and concussion missiles in the OT, and yes, we see TIE Bombers dropping their payloads in TESB, but you can get away with it in a 10-second scene, not a big flashy sequence like the one in TLJ.

Tracking through hyperspace: did I miss something or was the discussed impossibility of this tech brought up and just as quickly tossed aside, then a solution figured out in two lines of dialogue by a simple mechanic? If it was that easy, it clearly wasn't as impossible to do as they made it out to be initially.

The Rebel base on the planet Crait: again, did I miss a vital line of exposition here? The Resistance ships drop out of their first hyperspace jump (I assume to recalculate their next heading,) but then get stuck when the First Order fleet shows up. Reduced to limping along at sub-light speed, they have less than a day's worth of fuel. Yet, somehow in the vastness of the galaxy and just in the nick of time, they are miraculously near a planet that can not only sustain life, but has a convenient abandoned base for them to use? I wish I had C3PO here to quote the odds on the likelihood of that being likely.

The puny size of the Resistance and the puissance of the First Order: my ongoing complaint with this new trilogy is the utter lack of background for anything that's happened since the OT. What caused Leia and the Resistance to split and be different from the new Republic? Where did the First Order come from? Clearly they are the revitalized remnants of the Galactic Empire, but how were they organized so quickly, retained so much power and hardware (Starkiller base, anyone?), and if so, why was the Republic so blind and stupid as to not have an active military to counter something that was right in front of them? Did they learn absolutely nothing? What happened to all the personnel, military hardware, and fleets that the Alliance had at its disposal? Did everyone pack it up and call it a day after the Battle of Endor? The bad guys clearly didn't, so it's utterly illogical and downright stupid that the winners of that critical battle and backers of the new government are suddenly reduced to one cruiser, two smaller ships, and a handful of starfighters. It makes no sense and again, it seems like a convenient plot device that they don't want you to look at too closely. Some could try to explain this by saying the Republic fleet was destroyed along with the Hosnian system in TFA, but it's equally ridiculous that they would keep all their ships vulnerable in one location. This is a universe with hundreds of inhabited planets and hyperspace travel, after all. Before someone points out the novels, I'm sorry but I shouldn't be required to read a bunch of (poorly written, I hear) books to explain what to me are massive plot holes and glaring omissions in these movies. Take a minute or two and explain things to me, please.

The hyperspace ship-missile maneuver: Ignoring for one moment the sheer awesomeness of the whole thing, why has this never been done before? Why not remote-pilot a single cruiser into the first Death Star and be done with it? This is a gaping plot hole and one can of worms that I'm sure will be conveniently ignored going forward, but it was still one of the best moments this movie had to offer.

The Crait battle: What exactly was the point of sending out 13 skimmers falling apart to battle the First Order's ground assault hardware? Yeah they were going for the ram-cannon, but Poe and Leia couldn't possibly be stupid enough to not see that they didn't stand a chance. Sure enough, they go out and nearly all die in a pointless attack that accomplished absolutely nothing, not even a bit of additional time as the cannon is priming to fire the entire time. The whole thing felt like a filler action scene that went nowhere and the sole point of which was to have Rose save Finn so they could show us that she loved him. Ok then.

- Finn, Rose, and Canto Bight: why did I get the feeling that they just didn't know what to do with Finn in this movie? To keep the poor guy busy and with a purpose, we get a budding romance that feels shoehorned and lacks any chemistry whatsoever, and the most pointless detour ever in the history of the Star Wars movies. The Canto Bight caper brought back the worst memories of Prequel Trilogy scenes filled with CGI eye candy, forgettable extras, and zero substance. It added and advanced absolutely nothing in the story except to get Finn and Rose onto the First Order ship, only to then fail and still add and advance absolutely nothing. Benicio Del Toro did the most he could with what he was given and I liked his performance as DJ, the guy that takes no sides, but the character was as ultimately pointless as the entire side adventure he was a part of. Add the obligatory chase scene with cutesy riding animals and the tug-at-your-heartstrings moment with some kids and the formula for what you supposedly need in a movie these days is complete. No thanks.

- Captain Phasma: Boba Fett 2.0 ... need I say more?

- Vice Admiral Holdo: I love Laura Dern, and I really liked her character, yet I have to question why she was chosen for one of the movie's most awesome and pivotal sequences. Call it fan service if you will, but would not the sacrifice she made have been more meaningful and poignant to the fans if it had been Lando Calrissian or Admiral Ackbar instead, two characters that we are more familiar with and are at least more emotionally invested in? To me, the sheer wow factor of that scene was robbed of impact by the fact that I simply didn't care about Holdo. Sure she was brave and heroic, but we knew her for less than half an hour's worth of scenes, so why should we care? Instead Lando is shunned for this entire trilogy, and Ackbar gets unceremoniously sucked out into space with barely a word of acknowledgment. Poor decision.

- Force powers: I loved the two-way communication/bond between Rey and Kylo. There was a precedent established for this in the OT already, with Luke, Leia, and Vader being able to sense one another across vast distances, and even hear each other's thoughts. Johnson simply took it to the next level in a way that served the movie beautifully and effectively. Luke's Force Projection of his image onto the planet Crait was also a twist that I found to be extremely cool and believable in the sense that the effort to do so would be so massive and taxing that it cost Luke his life. What I couldn't wrap my head around was Leia's ridiculous Mary Poppins in Space moment. I literally couldn't believe my eyes as I watched that scene. Yes, she is Force-sensitive, and yes, it is not inconceivable a Jedi could survive in the vacuum of space for a short time. However, the whole thing was poorly executed, awkward-looking, and elicited more than a few laughs where I'm sure none were intended. Surely there was over a dozen ways they could have done the Kylo-Leia near-death scene without resorting to such a cheesy moment? That was just hard to watch. Also, knowing that the movie was still being put together after Carrie Fisher's untimely death, I had a moment of wondering why they didn't move this scene to much later in the sequence of events and have Leia actually die and resolve the problem of what to do with the character in the next movie. I get it would have likely required scrapping her scenes on Crait, but perhaps even that could have been reordered around? We'll never know.

- Missed opportunities: "Where's Han?", Luke shouts ... well, let me tell you. Or not. Who cares, right? Certainly not the fans that were cheated out of seeing Han and Luke onscreen together one last time after over three decades. In a movie that spent a ton of time going off to a random casino planet to find a no-name thief and then accomplish nothing in the process, Johnson saw fit to not devote a single second of screen time to Rey sorrowfully telling Luke of his best friend's tragic death at the hands of his own son. I guess that might have provided too much of an incentive for Luke to perhaps get off his rear end and do something about his evil nephew, but instead what could have been an emotionally-charged and beautiful but painful moment in this tale as Luke is hit by the realization that he too is responsible for Han's death, is instead casually ignored because I guess Johnson was in such a rush to kill the past that he could care less about providing some closure for the OT characters. To contrast this with a scene I felt was handled perfectly: my eyes teared up when Luke was inside the darkened Falcon, and especially when R2 played Leia's original holographic message. I was overwhelmed at the strength of my feelings during that moment.

- Snoke's death and Kylo vs. Rey: Easily one of the highlights of the movie for me. This is where TLJ got a chance to shine and I loved every moment of it. When I felt that trailers gave too much away, I was immensely pleased to see how wrong I was. Like my previous point about not knowing enough, I lament the fact that we know absolutely squat about who Snoke was or how he rose to lead the First Order. He seemed too much like a poor-man's Emperor to me. On the other hand, this lack of background made him highly disposable and his death is one that served the plot well. That Rey was so masterfully played by Ren in order for him to further his own ambitions was pulled off quite well, and there were several moments where I was left feeling things could go in any direction at any moment, and I found that lack of certainty refreshing and thrilling. To put the cherry on the cake, we were treated to one of the most awesome battle sequences in all the movies so far as Kylo and Ren fend off the Praetorian Guards.

- Rey's parents: I liked how they handled this. Either way we look at it, I think the storytelling wins. If Kylo was telling the truth (and given the source of these facts, this is highly dubious) I find it refreshing that Rey isn't somehow connected to the Skywalkers, or Kenobi, or whoever else we may have heard of before. Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One himself, came from a single mother who was a nobody herself, so why is it so shocking that Rey's parents were alcoholic vagrants? The Force can and should manifest itself in anyone it chooses, regardless of heritage and in the case of Rey, it is in keeping with the theme of a fresh start to this story. If this is a break from the past, then this is the best way to do it. However, being the master manipulator and liar that he is, there's a high chance Kylo was lying in order to destroy Rey's hopes and dreams and seduce her to his side. I think he wasn't lying though, and this is hinted at by Rey's experience in the tidal grotto on Ahch-To. When she looks in the reflection and asks to see her parents, she sees two shapes at first and we think we are in for a big reveal, but instead the two shapes blend into one, revealing only Rey's reflection. I think the significance of that was to tell her that her parents were indeed no one of consequence, so much so that even their faces were unimportant. All that mattered was that they sired her, and she was the one that was there and now, and important. Thus, she was shown herself.

- Callbacks: With TFA being slammed for being a copy of ANH, we were right to fear that TLJ would be too much like TESB. It wasn't and yet it was in many ways. For all the praise this movie is getting for breaking the formula, I still saw far too many similarities and blatant copies of scenes from TESB and ROTJ. From start to end we get: a planetary evacuation of rebel forces while an enemy fleet awaits in orbit; a tense space chase; the Jedi Master and apprentice moments on a remote planet; that place where the Dark Side is strong and where you find only what you bring with you; the visit by the admonishing ghost of a dead Jedi Master; the throne room scene where the evil leader gloats, allegiances shift, and said evil leader gets his comeuppance; the rebel base with the big gate, trench, low-flying speeders over a stark white landscape, overmatched by assault walkers; etc. Even Kylo watching the Falcon speed off in the sky on Crait reminded me of Vader watching the Falcon leaving the base on Hoth. For me, it was several one-too-many on the nose winks to what we've seen before, and for a movie that's taking all kinds of credit for doing new things, I didn't find it all that different.

Ok... phew... you tired of reading yet? Congrats if you made it this far and thanks for listening. In summation, there is much in this movie that I appreciated, but in the end I feel as Kit did. Not so much that it took a crap all over Star Wars, but I would say that Luke definitely came out of this stinking like poop. I will watch SW IX but it will be mostly going through the motions at that point and more for the sake of completion. I do want to see what happens with Leia as the last link to the OT (Chewie, C3PO, and R2-D2 seem like mere afterthoughts at this point,) and I am mildly curious about how the whole Kylo/Rey thing will end, but mostly I could care less about where this goes. The thought of a new Johnson-led trilogy that will possibly even jettison the likes of Poe, Finn, Rey, and Kylo holds even less appeal therefore I humbly pass the Star Wars legacy into the hands of a generation that I feel will have less than one tenth of the appreciation that we did for those wonderful movies that came out all those years ago, in what seems now like a galaxy far, far away.
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Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

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I think you are nearly spot on with my thoughts about this flick, although I could add a few more disappointments. An opportunity to nearly finalize the Skywalker story and make a completely awesome SW film out of the setup left by JJ was completely, irrecoverably blown, IMO. I also have little interest in next chapter, but knowing how the Rey/Kylo story ends may peak my interest in a few years, as that was really the only thing that I sort of liked about TLJ. I really have zero interest in sitting through another movie from this current incarnation of Lucasfilm to find out though.

My Nephews grew up on the prequels, and they loved TLJ, so I am happy for those of you that were able to enjoy it. Stinking turd of stupidity that it is :)

Sorry, couldn't resist.
KRDS

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I'm guessing the spoiler gloves are off by now, so here goes.

Shortly after seeing the movie, somewhere online I read one fan's witty summation of Luke in the EU vs Luke in the sequels. I can't find it now, but the essence of it was:

In the EU, Luke marries a beautiful woman, has cool adventures with his friends, and founds a new Jedi order. In the sequels, Luke wants to murder his nephew and dies a bitter virgin on an unknown planet.

That really gets at the essence of what I find lacking about these sequels. There are many ways you could write sequels to the OT; the EU books were one way. Some of those stories were good, some not so much. But when they were good, they were very good, and presented sequences that could have been thrilling in a movie. The actual sequels, on the other hand, have largely failed to have anything remotely as gripping as the OT or even the EU. There is occasionally some good cinematography, and we see a few familiar faces, but largely it's just an exercise in rehashing things that the OT did much, much better.

One big disappointment for me is that, other than the Mary Poppins sequence, the sequels have utterly failed to address Leia's relationship with the Force. She is Luke's sister and Anakin Skywalker's daughter, so we assume her latent Force abilities must be awesome (the way Rey's are portrayed, for example), but the most we get in these movies is the Mary Poppins sequence. Wouldn't one of Luke's first duties after ROTJ have been to assess and train Leia? I mean, whether she wants to be a Jedi or not, shouldn't she have training on these powers so that they don't overwhelm her? Or even if it turns out she's a squib, to use a Harry Potter term, just say so. For 30+ years I've been wondering about Leia's development in the Force and...nothing?

Another disappointment is that the new movies way of passing the torch from the original heroes to the new one seems to be, line them up, one by one, and kill them. I could almost forgive this if it was in the service of something huge, cool, noble, and awesome. But it isn't (I don't count rehashing original trilogy components as huge, cool, noble, or awesome, though Luke's astral projection sequence is pretty nifty). Also, there seem to be some large potholes. In the opening battle with the dreadnought, why do the Star Destroyers hang back and do nothing? Ditto, battle that ends with Laura Dern going kamikaze. Wouldn't their weapons range be much greater than the weapons range of TIE fighters, and turn the tide quickly in favor of the First Order? I suspect this is just another element of mindlessly copying an OT element, this one being the role of the Star Destroyers at the battle above Endor simply to hang back and make sure no Rebel cruisers escape. So, chalk up another fail to rehashing.

Star Wars is essentially over for me. The only reason I liked TLJ as much as I did is because TFA had already done irreparable harm and so I had zero expectations. We all moaned about how poor the prequels were, and they did indeed utterly ruin Darth Vader as a character, but for me it is the sequels that have killed Star Wars. The prequels were big and plodding, and littered with bad storytelling choices, but they did ultimately tell a worthwhile story, the rise of the Emperor and Darth Vader. Are the sequels going to do anything that substantial? At this point, the cards appear stacked against it.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I think your first disappointment is closely related to the second.

The reason we have zero development for Leia's Force abilities is because, as you put it, they are passing the torch by way of lining up the old cast behind the barn and unceremoniously putting a round in their heads. Why spend time on Leia when her number was already up before TFA even screened? It's been revealed that there was no concerted plan for this trilogy (and it is painfully obvious now that this is true,) but the one thing that seems that Disney agreed on and mandated to its directors was that the connections to the six previous Lucas movies were to be severed at all costs and the old cast handed their walking papers. This was great for Ford because he only agreed to play Solo again if the character was killed off, and fate chose for Fisher to not be able to appear in the final instalment though I have my serious doubts that Leia would have survived the culling that has claimed two of the big three thus far.

After nearly six hours of film to get some answers about beloved characters from 30 years ago, all we have is: Han was a bad partner and father, essentially leaving Leia and Ben to do their own thing. Leia didn't go into politics and seems to have been the only person in the entire galaxy after Endor that had the foresight to keep a few weapons and ships stashed away. Luke built a school for Jedi, failed to see his nephew being seduced to the Dark Side, then ran off to a remote planet to sulk until the end of his days. Pretty poor showing for some characters that deserved a heck of a lot more. Instead, let's just kill them off and be done with it. It's apparently too much of a headache to try and be a little bit creative.

As for the two-hour long chase scene that nearly comprised the entire movie, the plot holes don't get much bigger than just about everything about it. They do try to explain that the Star Destroyers can only keep up with the fleeing Resistance ships and are not fast enough to overtake them but are just within reach of their weapons. However, they launch one TIE attack because the smaller fighters have greater speed. So why not continue to do this and finish them off? Or signal other First Order ships with the coordinates of the Resistance ships and have them jump ahead of them to trap them? Or did they want us to believe that all of the First Order's capital ships were present? The whole thing was stupid and contrived, but no element worse than Crait just conveniently sitting in their path. Regarding your question about Holdo's last stand though, I'm not sure what you mean. At that point the First Order is firing on the defenseless escape transports fleeing toward the planet and simply ignore the cruiser which they assume to be abandoned. By the time it begins to turn and jumps to hyperspace, it's already to late. That's about the only bit that made sense except for the fact the hyperspace maneuver is a plot hole in and of itself.

Anyway, I couldn't agree more with you and Kit. Star Wars is over and done with in my heart, and whatever else comes beyond this (and including this) is just using the name to sell tickets. I even doubt lightning will strike twice in the form of another Rogue One. The Han Solo movie holds zero appeal for me, as do any of an endless string of planned prequels. Stay tuned for the one after that, tentatively titled: Obi-wan Kenobi: Death of a Jawa Salesman. :rolleye:
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I guess no one thinks they need to care about old fans any more. Lucasfilm obviously doesn't. And these movies make a ton of money, so what evidence do they have to suggest they're wrong?

A few years ago my cousin and a younger friend of his went to see Star Trek: Into Darkness. The younger guy was perhaps 24. When the movie was over, I commented that if you were going to retreat The Wrath of Khan, this was how how you do it, not with the anemic mess that was Nemesis. Well, the younger guy had no idea what I was talking about because he had never seen The Wrath of Khan. So maybe the studios are right in their belief that people go see franchise movies with no previous exposure to the franchise (and hence it always needs to be explained that Worf is a Klingon, or whatever). In any event, with TWOK having been around on VHS, Laserdisc, DVD, and BD, and now streaming, this guy had never seen it, had no preconceptions about the movie, and thus wasn't tied to any particular notions about the characters. And it is apparently for people like that the Disney is making these new Star Wars flicks. Who cares how the older characters are treated? Nobody knows them anyway!

Unfortunately yesterday Mark Hamill chose to eat crow and say that now he sees that Johnson was right and he himself was wrong about Luke, and the movie is just peachy. He either got his first check, or someone leaned on him. In spite of Luke's physical death, as a Jedi he can always come back...unless the actor shoots off his mouth and angers the suits.

Speaking of returning Jedi, was I the only one that thought that Yoda looked wrong, somehow? And what was the point of his appearance, other than fan service? Did it drive the plot in any way?

As Lucas was selling his company to Disney, he ginned up story treatments for two sequel trilogies, which Disney promptly dust-binned. I wonder if they would have been any better than what we're getting? I guess they'll never see the light of day. I can't imagine Disney authorizing anyone to do novelizations of them, creating yet a third extended universe.

As for the Solo movie, I have some guarded expectations for it, solely on the basis of the cast. I've seen Alden Ehrenreich and Donald Glover in other movies (Hail Caesar and The Martian, respectively) and enjoyed them very much in those roles. And the movie has Emilia Clarke and Woody Harrelson! And LOL, I see Opie has shoehorned his brother Clint into it. And Lawrence Kasdan and his son wrote the screenplay (of course, Kasdan co-wrote TFA, so take it for what it's worth). In any event, my future hopes for Star Wars, to the extent that universe is not dead for me, rest solely on the anthology movies.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I hear what you're saying about who these movies are made for, and though I agree, I find it so disheartening and insulting that it makes me feel like never bothering to even try again.

I fully understand this is a business and money must be made, but it feels fundamentally disrespectful and callous when you consider that these franchises are only around today due to our love and support, not only emotionally but also financially. The success of Star Wars was built on the backs of its fans, and not only are we still around today, but we are also the ones that have the additional disposable income to go to the theatre more than once, buy the home video release, and any collectible merchandise that comes out.

The ADD generation of today, who spends the entire runtime of these movies with an itchy finger on their phones so they can get back to mindlessly surfing Instagram or Facebook, are one-and-done customers. They may help generate box office revenue at the end of the day, but I find that their general level of appreciation, connection, concern, or even ability to retain any of what they just saw to be extremely limited. As the entire movie industry realizes that revenues continue to decline steadily and that movie theatres across the world are having trouble filling seats on a consistent basis, they must one day understand that this era of flash over substance must end and that movies that actually make you think rather than just stare dumbly at fast-moving images for two hours are something they must go back to.

When that days comes, they will regret having flipped the bird at us for the last decade because these current moviegoers could care less if Star Wars is still going another 30 years from now. We at least waited and made sure that the powers that be were aware that they should make it happen. Yet now this new trilogy is amounting to little more than a huge F-off to that loyal fan base, and will join the other hundreds of forgettable movies that are being churned out these days. In trying to continue a legacy, they are destroying it as fast as they can. In 30 years from now, I guarantee Luke Skywalker will still be remembered fondly, and Rey will be a mere footnote on the internet. They've made sure of that.

P.S. - Yes, I think Yoda was largely fan service. They wanted a way to throw in a Force Ghost and found one. In terms of plot, it gave Luke the much-needed kick in the butt to actually do something and stop feeling sorry about himself. It also made him realize that all his talk about ending the Jedi legacy was only so much bluster because in the end, he couldn't bring himself to burn the tree and books within. Yoda helped him see that none of that was important anyway.
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Olorin wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:04 pm Re: Yoda's role, that's all more or less what I got out of it after a lot of puzzling. The whole sequence was very awkwardly constructed, IMHO.
Yes it was, but in that same vein, so was the rest of the movie. For the first time ever, I got the eerie feeling that I was not watching Yoda, but rather someone else's slightly off interpretation of Yoda. It was weird.

By the way, regarding Hamill's retraction and the possibility of us seeing Luke again, Johnson himself pointed out something most fans seem to have missed, myself included: when Luke's body disappears and his cloak falls to the rock, we should have heard the audible clank of his artificial hand falling to the ground. Johnson hints this was an accidental oversight, but that it was immediately noticed after the scene was filmed. He had plenty of time to correct that, but didn't. Why? And why point it out to us after the movie's release? Maybe something's afoot, maybe not. Considering JJ gets to come in after with a mop and try to make sense of this mess, it is entirely possible we will see Luke again, alive or not.
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Valkrist wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:49 pm
Yes it was, but in that same vein, so was the rest of the movie. For the first time ever, I got the eerie feeling that I was not watching Yoda, but rather someone else's slightly off interpretation of Yoda. It was weird.

By the way, regarding Hamill's retraction and the possibility of us seeing Luke again, Johnson himself pointed out something most fans seem to have missed, myself included: when Luke's body disappears and his cloak falls to the rock, we should have heard the audible clank of his artificial hand falling to the ground. Johnson hints this was an accidental oversight, but that it was immediately noticed after the scene was filmed. He had plenty of time to correct that, but didn't. Why? And why point it out to us after the movie's release? Maybe something's afoot, maybe not. Considering JJ gets to come in after with a mop and try to make sense of this mess, it is entirely possible we will see Luke again, alive or not.
Yoda: Yes, that’s it exactly.

The hand: trepidation fills me....

Btw, any thoughts on why the fans thought the movie violated canon?
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Olorin wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:44 pmBtw, any thoughts on why the fans thought the movie violated canon?
Nothing that I can quote straight from other people's mouths, but having seen the movie now and looking for those things myself I can only guess they were referring to:

- Luke's behaviour
- Long-established notions of what the Jedi stood for
- The off-hand use of never-before-seen or mentioned Force powers

While I am fully behind the first two points, the third one seems a little silly. Just because we haven't seen the Jedi do something before, doesn't mean it is not within their ability to do it. As I mentioned in my long review, the mental link thing has been there since the OT, and how tough to swallow is astral projection in a universe that has Force Ghosts? However, I fully agree that the Mary Poppins sequence needs to be excised from our memories with laser-guided precision. If I ever watch this movie again, I'm going to pick that moment for a bathroom break.
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Taking a brief break from one of the season's most depressing tasks: taking down the Christmas tree. :'(

I agree with Val's assessment of what rankled the "fanboys," if I may use the term.

More thoughts on Luke's hand. After Luke broke off the astral projection, he collapsed off of the boulder, then struggled back onto it to watch the sunset. More on that sunset in a moment. Once he was sitting on the boulder again and passed on, his hand would not necessarily have clattered to the ground. If it were resting on the boulder, then it may have shifted position, but not necessarily clattered. Was it resting on the boulder before he died? I don't remember.

On the theme of the studio not caring about the older fans.... A few years ago when the first teaser for TFA debuted (at Comic Con, I think), I remember reading about audience reaction to it. The Prequel Generation's reaction was either "ooh aah, Star Wars" or puzzlement (I don't remember), but the older fans were wowed. Supposedly when Han and Chewie entered and Han delivered his line, "Chewie, we're home," some of the older fans sobbed with emotion at reconnecting with their Star Wars. How crestfallen they must have felt after seeing the finished product. I myself felt just hollowed out. I try to go into movies anymore with no expectations (a benefit of age and experience), but there was so much buzz about TFA that it was impossible not to have some expectations. I don't think the studio cared that I was in that minority that didn't love the film. But I guess the point I was trying to make here was that, intended or not, sometimes the studio's disregard of older fans' wants and needs goes beyond disregard into what turned out to be a cruel bait and switch.

Now, on that sunset..... Does Ahch-To really have a binary sun, or just a single sun which sometimes was juxtaposed with Luke's memories of growing up on Tatooine?
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Valkrist wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:49 pm Yes it was, but in that same vein, so was the rest of the movie. For the first time ever, I got the eerie feeling that I was not watching Yoda, but rather someone else's slightly off interpretation of Yoda. It was weird.
Funny, I have felt that way about every version of Yoda since TESB. He looked cross eyed in ROTJ, and that swollen lipped, sunken eyed, puppet in TFM was just strangely weird. Like it was Yoda's weird uncle Yodel or something, not actually Yoda. The CGI model that Lucas replaced it with later matched his TESB look much better, but - I don't know. Never felt like the real Yoda to me.
KRDS

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Yep, he was cross-eyed in ROTJ. I remember thinking at the time how funny that was but also being sad, because like Olorin said, he was dying. The look was definitely intentional in that case.

I had forgotten about the bad Yodel abomination in TPM. I'm glad they corrected that for the rest of the prequels.

On Ahch-To's binary suns - who can say for sure until the SW Encyclopedia gets updated? When I first saw that, I thought it was a bit of a cheap move on Johnson's part as if to say "I'm sorry I killed Luke, but look... remember that cool scene from ANH that is etched in every fan's mind? Here is your consolation prize! See, I do care about you fans!"

Given their size in the sky, I found it odd that an ocean-planet could orbit two stellar bodies like that and not be a barren wasteland like Tatooine was, but I'm no expert in planetology. I also had the thought that maybe Luke was being transported in his mind back to his youth in his last moments and that those were indeed the twin suns of Tatooine he was seeing. There was a conversation earlier in the movie between Luke and Rey to the effect of there always being hope so long as the sun rises to chase the dark away or some such. Maybe it was a way to show Luke that his sacrifice had been worthwhile.
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