Re: Picard returns!

51
Valkrist wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:23 am The swearing, vaping (drugs?), smoking: yes, it absolutely feels jarring to me in a Star Trek show/setting. There's a cynical part of me that feels this is all part of yet another misguided attempt by today's 'woke' culture to make the show seem modern, relevant, and relatable to younger audiences - as usual forgetting that your average Star Trek viewer that gives a rat's behind about watching Picard is at least 2-3 decades already beyond that demographic.
That's true, but if they only aim at us older watchers, in 20 years they'll have no watchers. As to "woke," I'm not sure having bad habits constitutes woke or would be received as a nod toward them.
Valkrist wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:23 am Romulans: looks like my observation about them looking normal again was premature.
The explanation given by the producers is that depending on which continent of Romulus the person came from, they may or may not have the forehead thing going on. If you'll recall, at one point Laris refers to her husband as a Northerner through and through. She has a smooth head; his is a bit ridgy and bulbous. I think it's their way of trying to reconcile the two different types of Romulans we've seen in Star Trek over the years. I don't think it's nearly as clever or logical as the Klingon head resolution provided by Enterprise, but it may be as much as they felt like doing without building several episodes around it. And as explanations go, it's not a terrible one, though it does require us to believe that each past grouping of Romulans we've seen all came from the same continent, which is not likely. Speaking of Enterprise, I don't know that we ever discussed how Discovery essentially shat all over the Augment virus explanation by reverting all Klingons to ridgy. I mean, I like Discovery, but I swear sometimes I wonder if anybody involved with making it has ever watched Star Trek before. Speaking of The Shat, he's going to be on The Curse of Oak Island on the History Channel next week.
Valkrist wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:23 am On the subject of our pointy-eared friends, why is a Vulcan Commodore named 'Oh'? The actress that plays her is Japanese, and the last name Oh is Korean, which is all fine and well, but it strikes me as odd that an Asiatic-looking Vulcan would have a name to match their Earth-ethnicity counterparts. When or why do Vulcan names ever follow Earth racial conventions? I know it was established long ago that Vulcans are as racially diverse as humans, but it makes no sense that names would fall along the same lines. Of course, there could be something about the Commodore's background that we don't know, but unless that somehow plays into the story, the naming choice is odd at best.

I would say, perhaps she has a human father, but I just read that Alex Kurtzman has said she's actually a Romulan. That wouldn't preclude a human father but it could present other explanations for the name. However, if you're going to try to pass yourself off as Vulcan, wouldn't you pick a more Vulcan-sounding name?
Valkrist wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:23 am Captain Rios... what can I say? Rubbed me the wrong way right off. I am naturally averse to silly macho stereotypes, especially when they go so overboard to seem cool and uncaring. When you're travelling around to a multitude of planets and coming in contact with a bazillion possible pathogens, who in their right mind leaves a bleeding, oozing wound like that open and untreated, then nonchalantly throws a shirt over it? Just feels like throwing out common sense in favour of hitting us over the head with how tough this guy is. I'd say stupid before tough.
Yeah that was a but silly, but guys that are that cool, tough, and hawt don't worry about stab wounds! :crazy2:
Valkrist wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:23 am I'm glad those godawful Starfleet uniforms that Picard and Raffi were wearing in the flashback did not make it past that scene. One of the worst designs they've come up with yet out of the 5,324,526 ones we've seen thus far. Also, I think they did a wonderful job de-ageing Picard just enough for that scene, but they forgot to alter/filter his voice even just a bit. It sounded exactly like he does now and nothing like he did in Nemesis. I get it was supposed to be only 14 years ago, but his voice sounds so old and rough now that it really shattered the illusion that we were looking at a younger Picard.
I didn't mind the uniform but it is silly they change so often. At first I thought it was a special design as it was an Admiral's uniform, but then I noted Raffi's had the same pattern and judging by her pips, she wasn't more than a Commander. I also noticed the bit about Picard's voice but it didn't really ruin it for me. Actually, my voice is starting to do that and I'm not even 60. I think it's because the ducts in my office building are full of gunk, and my vocal cords feel like they have a perpetual film of phlegm when I'm there.
Valkrist wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:23 am Very nice to see Hugh again! I wonder if Seven is on that Cube and I'm hoping she calls herself Anika again when we do see her. With what that the Reclamation Project represents, it would be weird for her to continue going by a Borg designation, but then she was always stubborn and a bit weird about that.
I have not gotten the impression she's on the cube. Jeri Ryan has said something along the lines that 7 shows up wherever there's some downtrodden person she can help.

You really need to not wait until the day before the next episode to post your thoughts on the last episode! ;)

I'm really wanting to hear about the state of affairs in the Romulan Empire but not much so far. Of course, they just trickle out things as needed, and all we've gotten so far is that there's now a polity known as the Romulan Free State.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

52
I know... I tried to make a point of posting earlier but things kept getting in the way, and I didn't actually get caught up on my viewings until this past Monday.

On the "woke" comment: perhaps it was the wrong term to use, but I was referring to how there's so much pandering in today's shows and movies. It's almost like networks, companies, and the writers they hire are desperate to show that they are on top of what people want to see these days, when in fact their perceptions are often wrong, outdated, or out of touch. I'm sure that being freed from the constraints of network television by being a streaming show, they are behaving like a kid who suddenly got his driver's license or is finally allowed to buy liquor. It's all very juvenile, to be honest.

On the Romulans and Discovery Klingons: I don't mind that explanation, even if as you said, it's a bit of a light compromise to reconcile two things we've seen. As for Disco and the Klingons, I've pretty much accepted within my own mind that that entire show happens in a different continuum, so they can leap off a giant cliff for all I care as to what they do to further destroy canon.

Commodore Oh: so they've told people that Oh is a Romulan before that's even confirmed on the show? Doesn't seem like they're very concerned about spoilers, and that's annoying, to be honest. Also, what the heck is going on with Starfleet?!? I can accept that these are highly sophisticated alien organizations that are infiltrating the Federation, but is there really a need to portray Starfleet Security and Counter-Intelligence like a bunch of inept fourth-graders? Obviously Oh and Narissa and whatever other cronies they have are responsible for multiple Romulan assassins running rampant all over Earth, but it seems like some very brazen work for Starfleet to seemingly do nothing about it. Whatever happened to background checks and medical scans? How does a surgically-altered Romulan pass as human and attain the rank of Lieutenant, and how does a supposedly Vulcan Commodore - and I have to assume they don't just dole out that rank like candy - is not flagged as a Romulan given how long she would have to serve to get that far in her career? If we are expected to believe that Romulans are so pervasive on Earth now that they can seemingly do whatever they want with impunity, perhaps there could have been more exposition on how many of them were given refugee status on Earth. Even so, given that Starfleet wasn't that willing to help rescue them, they sure seem to not give a crap about being infiltrated at the highest levels. It all seems a little easy and contrived, and I hate stuff like that done for the convenience of the story while basic logic and common sense are quietly swept under the rug.

That Admiral tore Picard a new one, but I can't believe the man we once knew would simply and quietly accept an assassination attempt in his own home in the very heart of the Federation, and not go back and demand to be heard. Again, way too convenient and out of character.
This Space for Rent

Re: Picard returns!

53
Valkrist wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:34 pm As for Disco and the Klingons, I've pretty much accepted within my own mind that that entire show happens in a different continuum, so they can leap off a giant cliff for all I care as to what they do to further destroy canon.
Since they've leapt off a giant cliff by going a thousand years into the future, canon is hopefully out of the way and they won't be as apt to wreck it. I'm guessing the decision to take the show into the future was probably a veiled reaction to people complaining about perceived canon violations. Otherwise, if they'd always intended to be that far in the future, why didn't they just start the show there?
Valkrist wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:34 pm Commodore Oh: so they've told people that Oh is a Romulan before that's even confirmed on the show? Doesn't seem like they're very concerned about spoilers, and that's annoying, to be honest.
That would be like revealing in the trailers that Emperor Palpatine is back.
Valkrist wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:34 pm Also, what the heck is going on with Starfleet?!? I can accept that these are highly sophisticated alien organizations that are infiltrating the Federation, but is there really a need to portray Starfleet Security and Counter-Intelligence like a bunch of inept fourth-graders? Obviously Oh and Narissa and whatever other cronies they have are responsible for multiple Romulan assassins running rampant all over Earth, but it seems like some very brazen work for Starfleet to seemingly do nothing about it. Whatever happened to background checks and medical scans? How does a surgically-altered Romulan pass as human and attain the rank of Lieutenant, and how does a supposedly Vulcan Commodore - and I have to assume they don't just dole out that rank like candy - is not flagged as a Romulan given how long she would have to serve to get that far in her career? If we are expected to believe that Romulans are so pervasive on Earth now that they can seemingly do whatever they want with impunity, perhaps there could have been more exposition on how many of them were given refugee status on Earth. Even so, given that Starfleet wasn't that willing to help rescue them, they sure seem to not give a crap about being infiltrated at the highest levels. It all seems a little easy and contrived, and I hate stuff like that done for the convenience of the story while basic logic and common sense are quietly swept under the rug.

That Admiral tore Picard a new one, but I can't believe the man we once knew would simply and quietly accept an assassination attempt in his own home in the very heart of the Federation, and not go back and demand to be heard. Again, way too convenient and out of character.
I think theres a lot of commentary about our current societies going on here. As for Picard, he's probably just in a different place in his life now, and figures going back to the Admiral would be a lost cause.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

54
I've forgotten to mention, the depiction of the ground facilities of Utopia Planitia, with its stacks belching fumes into the sky, was disheartening. After hundreds of years, will we have learned nothing about protecting the environment? I guess at least now we know where all the volatiles in Mars' atmosphere came from, that are still burning 14 years later. :roll:
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

55
Poor Icheb. Poor, sweet Icheb.

As I've said before, I'm going to withhold judgment on this new series until all episodes have aired, because it's so serialized that it's not practical to judge an episode on its individual merits, at least as far as the story goes. That said, there were some things about this episode that bothered me.

First, I have a dim view of shows or movies that bring back past characters apparently for the sole reason of killing them off. And this episode did that not once, but twice.

I felt very badly for Icheb. He did not have a good life. His parents engineered him to be a weapon against the Borg, sacrificing him to them in the process, and trying to do so a second time. Thanks to Seven and Voyager, he was saved, and brought to the Alpha Quadrant. Presumably the best part of his life was aboard Voyager, and later as a Starfleet officer aboard Coleman. But what a terrible end he came to. And this brings up another point: gore. The new Star Treks are veering a bit too far in that direction for my liking. First were the horribly distorted, mutilated bodies onboard the Glenn, very reminiscent of the grotesque Thing variations in John Carpenter's The Thing. And now we are treated to the brutal, gratuitous removal of Icheb's eye implant. OK, we get that this people are heartless, sadistic bastards, removing implants without any anesthesia. Do we have to see it too? Aren't the screams enough?

Fans are not happy about Icheb's death: https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2020/02/21/s ... ion-actor/ The article is interesting in that it mentions the episode was written by Trek novelist Kirsten Beyer, who is Icheb's #1 fan, so perhaps there's still more to his story?

I felt not nearly so badly for Maddox. In The Measure of a Man, he was sort of a bad stereotype of a scientist: fixated on his desires to the complete refusal to consider broader, ethical issues. You were supposed to dislike the character, and I did. Now he resurfaces after 35 years, and we really only get a few minutes with him (though I suspect there will be flashbacks in upcoming episodes). And his...paramour? wife? offs him. Say, wouldn't the medical system have set off alarms elsewhere on the ship when he was dying? Wouldn't the EMH have told the captain? In any case, it makes me wonder where the show is going now. Thus far, it's been more or less The Search for Maddox, and we no more than find him than we lose him.

I wonder why both roles were recast. Fans on TrekMovie speculate that since the Icheb death scene is a flashback and Icheb would only have been in his 20s, while the original actor is in his 40s, to be the reason. As for Maddox' recasting, I think the new guy was a better actor by far, but it's hard to blame everything on the actor. As the Star Wars prequels showed, sometimes it's all down to the director. Also, why do both characters now have curly hair? Did they both have to get wigs, like Admiral Kirk? Another puzzle!

On a lighter note, the show provided some comic relief with Rios decked out just like a 20th century pimp! I wasn't 100% clear on what the role or purpose of these "interfacer" characters was supposed to be, except apparently to support the fashion industry on Freecloud. I did get a kick out of how Santiago Cabrera showed how awkward Rios felt doing this pimp part. And of course there was Picard's over-the-top French bad guy. These things were amusing, but they felt a bit awkward alongside the darker elements of the episode. Say, did anyone get the feeling that Seven and Bjayzl had been lovers?

I guess those are my thoughts on the episode. But in closing, I can only say again:

Poor Icheb.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

56
Overall, the episode left me feeling a little cold, something that's becoming increasingly common while watching Picard.

I guess that old saying that "You can't go home again" is true and there's always that idealized version of Trek and TNG in our minds that we can never go back to. Then again, this can't just be a retread of the past and they have to be careful to try and forge ahead while respecting what came before.

The death of Icheb was hard to watch, not just for its brutal "Here he is!!! Now say goodbye!" aspect, but also because he was indeed a beloved character from the past. I didn't really have a connection to Maddox so I cared way less about him, so much so that I could barely remember the original actor's face and thus only wondered even briefly if it was a different guy in the role. However, I will disagree that their deaths, however sudden, served no purpose. In the case of Icheb, it sets up much of the context for Seven's actions and behaviour in deceiving Picard, and what is driving her personal revenge quest against Bjayzl. I don't think her actions and the overall emotional stakes of the episode would have had the same impact and motivation had we not seen what was done to Icheb and how much he'd come to mean to her in the intervening years. As for Maddox, his death was necessary to set up whatever is going on with Agnes. That she would make the difficult but nevertheless ruthless decision to kill someone she loved can only speak to the level of and depth of this plot involving the Tal'shiar, synths, and the ongoing infiltration of Starfleet. Viewed through that lens now, she is a completely different character with a whole new layer of complexity added on, and Maddox's murder is what propels that forward.

As for the rest, the whole dress-up bit, while amusing for a few minutes, was just a little too farcical and felt like forced fishing for cheap laughs. Yes, Rios became a little more endearing and he's growing on me, but Elnor's fish-out-water country bumpkin routine can get tiresome fast if overplayed. The sickbay scene was a little annoying too for the reasons you outlined, but we did in fact hear medical alarms going off, it's just that perhaps they are disconnected from the rest of the ship so no one else noticed? I think the contempt which Rios constantly shows for his EMH might give off some clues as to how much he's ignored or hampered its functions, including any alerts from sickbay. I did like the small easter egg of the diagnostic equipment making the same sounds as the old one on TOS.
This Space for Rent

Re: Picard returns!

57
Oh, I agree that the deaths actually served a purpose. I guess what I meant to say is that I would rather they had told the story in a way that didn’t require Icheb to be brought back only to be killed. As for Maddox, I don’t really give a flip about him, other than it seemed like OK here’s our big pay off coming, but it gets short circuited before we really find out much.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

58
Olorin wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:27 am Poor Icheb. Poor, sweet Icheb.

I wonder why both roles were recast. Fans on TrekMovie speculate that since the Icheb death scene is a flashback and Icheb would only have been in his 20s, while the original actor is in his 40s, to be the reason. As for Maddox' recasting, I think the new guy was a better actor by far, but it's hard to blame everything on the actor. As the Star Wars prequels showed, sometimes it's all down to the director. Also, why do both characters now have curly hair? Did they both have to get wigs, like Admiral Kirk? Another puzzle!

Poor Icheb.
I might be going out on a wobbly limb here but social media posts tend to come and bite you in the butt later. Digging into Twitter, it seems the original Icheb actor, Manu Intiraymi, made some rather controversial comments about the Kevin Spacey/Anthony Rapp situation. Defending Kevin Spacey, defending the times that it was common for 20-somethings to hookup with teenagers, and he would have done so if given the chance at 14 to be with a 26 year old Kevin Spacey.

I'm not saying this was the reason he wasn't brought back, but I can see why Star Trek would distance themselves from someone who made these comments.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Picard returns!

60
OK, with this week's episode I feel like we are finally starting to get to the meat of the new series. We finally see Picard go onto the Borg Artifact, and although I don't know that I had any specific pre-conceptions, I think this was well done. We've seen Picard grapple before with having been assimilated, most notably in Family, but I think it's realistic that this would be something a person could never fully get over. Admittedly, last week when Picard admitted he felt he hadn't yet fully recovered his humanity, I was a bit disappointed, or saddened. It was over 30 years ago, and I suppose because Star Trek has only checked in with Picard on this issue a very few times since the assimilation, I figured he was "over it." But obviously Borg assimilation is something a person could never fully get past. It's rape on a grand scale, physical and mental violation and mutilation. Moreover, to whatever extent Picard may have come to terms with it in the past, now that he's 94 years old and undoubtedly wondering how much life is left, he's probably feeling vulnerable, and that's when those old ghosts rear their heads again. And then to have to confront it head-on, go onto a Borg ship, and even be called Locutus by some of the XBs, that would be overpowering.

I was also very curious to see how Hugh would react to Picard. As best I recall, last time we saw Hugh, he was feeling pretty resentful for what the Enterprise crew did to him. His brush with individuality affected the rest of his shipmates, and the Collective cut them loose, and then they fell prey to Lore. He wasn't exactly happy about that, so I wasn't sure how he'd greet Picard. When at last they meet, just for a second or so, I wondered if Hugh was reacting negatively, but obviously he's gotten past his resentment, and there was a joyful reunion. Having Hugh take him in hand was just the lifeline Picard needed to endure being on the cube, I think.

In the aftershow, the makeup guy talks about doing the design for the XBs. He said they didn't set out to make them look Frankensteinian, but that was how they turned out. And man, do they ever look Frankensteinian. But hey, it's a good look. They're not the big scary Borg any more, but now the look even more horrific, which keeps the tension that might otherwise have seeped away. I mean, how threatened are we when we look at Seven? Although the Romulans seem to be trying to help the XBs cosmetically at least a little (the one appeared to be trying to smooth over the scar of an XB's missing eye), they are obviously not as gifted as Voyager's doctor.

And we have a callback to the Sikarians. These were the alien race with whom Voyager traded its literary database in exchange for trajectory technology. Unfortunately the Sikarians suffered a terrible fate and were assimilated. But the callback was nice, and we now see a means by which the Borg Queen can flee a doomed ship. Hugh tells Picard the trajector was after his time, so we know this is not how the Queen who assimilated Picard survived. I think I will continue to believe she was actually destroyed but her functionality was simply immediately implemented in another Borg elsewhere. Also, I guess we are to assume that every Borg vessel has the ability to host the Queen, since this random ship that has become the Artifact contains a Queen Cell.

I thought the resdesign of the Borg cube interior was very effective. Until this week, I think the only areas we had seen were ones that the Romulans had remodeled to their own likings. But the authentic Borg areas look much better than they used to. Although the Borg aesthetic was always pretty cool, it was at the same time a little cheesy, with the plasma disc like you can buy at Spencer's Gifts, and the over-reliance on sickly green lighting. I thought the new aesthetic was much slicker, colder, and alien. And unlike wholesale changes in the appearance of alien races, this change is very easy to "assimilate" It's a ship. You can build a new ship to look any way you want, or use nanotechnology to remodel an old ship any way you want.

Lastly, I think we need to touch on Captain Rios. I guess he is providing what past Trek Lotharios lacked, which was being a Latin Lover. No puns about being "smoking" hot necessary.... But I found his costume a bit funny in the seduction scene. I mean, cargo shorts and a belt, much like you might see a guy wearing today? I thought we were at the dawn of the 25th Century. Rios' shorts and Picard's business suit for his interview are making me wonder about that.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

61
I sobbed with joy Thursday evening. Twice. I am not making that up.

But let's talk about other things first....

Commodore Oh. One of the producers has said she's actually a Romulan, and Jonathon Frakes referred to her as a Romulan on Wil Wheaton's aftershow. Yet she mind-melded with Dr. Jurati. So is she actually Vulcan, or can Romulans do that too? Speaking of the meld, the imagery was an obvious reference to the AI Apocalypse of Control, and perhaps used some of the same footage. I haven't tried to compare yet. So this is why the Romulans shun AI. I thought it was said earlier that the Zhat Vash go back thousands of years. Does their hatred of AI go that far back? If so, Control can't be the explanation for it.

Dr. Jurati. She's just a mess. But I guess we're starting to see why. Will she straighten up and fly right? Three more episodes to answer that question.

Elnor's eyebrows. In most past iterations of Star Trek, Vulcan and Romulan eyebrows were done by shaving the outer part of the actor's real eyebrows, and gluing on hairs to arch them upward. For Picard, they are putting an appliance over the actor's entire eybrow, with the alien eyebrow already stitched onto it. Most of the time, it works really well. But Evan Evagora has such pronounced natural brow ridges that they really stand out even though they are covered. This all serves to point out the dirty little secret of the Vulcanoid eyebrow. Eyebrows are supposed to keep stuff from falling into your eyes. If part of them is inches from your eye, it's not effective. I'd think the only one someone would have brows going upward like that is if they socket of their eye was also shaped that way. (And Lord, would that look alien.) In any case, I think they should've done something different for Elnor, give him more of a TNG-style Romulan forehead, something to hide his natural brow ridges.

The death of Hugh. Some damned article I saw online spoiled this for me, so I knew it was coming. I don't know why they can't keep stuff like that under wraps until the episode has aired. In any event, it was very sad. Hugh was introduced to us way back when as a very puppy-dog character, and matured into a sensitive, caring man. For him to be able to do that, considering all he went through, makes him even more endearing. And now he is summarily offed. I fear Picard is starting to be one of those shows that bring back old characters simply to kill them off. Please let me not be right. Also, I was wondering where Elnor found that "call Seven/help I've fallen and can't get up" pendant. Now I'm thinking it must have been something Hugh had that fell off him in the fight. There's no other reason for it to have been on the cube.

Nepenthe. This planet seems to have a number of very large moons in a pretty close orbit...or really huge moons in a more distant orbit. Of course, this is a standard trope in science fiction, and looks lovely when done well (as it is here). But the two thoughts I have about it are both gravity-related. First, if the moons are that close, they should be crossing the Roche limit and starting to disintegrate into rings. Second, if they are so big and/or so near, Nepenthe must have hellaceous tides. Sidebar....it was embarrassing to hear Wil Wheaton and his guests fumble over how to pronounce the name of the world. Come on, guys!

The bunnicorn. OK, purely silly, but not in a league with multiple Decks 78 on the Enterprise-A, the joy-stick on the Enterprise-E, or Kirk's big hands and swollen tongue in the 2009 movie. And I wonder if "bunnicorn" is its real designation, or if that's just what the Rikers call it. Lastly, does it inject its venom through its horn?

And so, Nepenthe. My first sob moment was when Picard encountered Troi puttering around outside the house. Their reactions and hugs were wonderful. It was clear these were two old friends who treasure each other, and knowing that feeling is shared between the actors made it even more special. As they fell into each other's arms, I started to chuckle, but it immediately turned into a sob. A dry sob, but a sob nonetheless. I was feeling pretty lousy with nausea all afternoon and evening Thursday, and maybe that made me a bit more vulnerable, but in any case, I found it very affecting. Ditto when Picard and Riker met. That was the second sob moment.

Troi really ripped Picard a new one when he made an ill-considered jest at Soji's expense. I guess we had to have a Counselor Troi moment. Also, I think they wanted to illustrate that Picard wasn't necessarily well-suited to deal with someone emotionally not mature, like Soji.

Jonathon Frakes said he had misgivings about returning to play Riker in this episode. He said Marina has been on stage a lot recently, so her acting muscles would be honed, and of course Patrick Stewart is Patrick Stewart. Frakes, however, has been away from acting for a while. He was afraid he'd be blown out of the water. But I thought he totally nailed it.

There was some sadness and regret of course, in the form, and absence, of Thad Riker. I knew that had to be a name from Riker's past. And sure enough, he had a many-times-great grandfather who fought in the American Civil War. And Kestra, of course, is the name of Troi's older sister who died as a child. But on the whole, the visit to Nepenthe was a warm and reassuring visit with old friends.

Now there are just three episodes left, and they have tentatively identified the world where the android sisters were created. So, the plot should be coming together and concluding very soon. The biggest question I have is, will Data be reconstituted in some form at the end. If all his memories and neural pathways are fractally contained within a single positronic neuron, and they find any at Maddox' lab, well.... Of course, they can't create an android body as sophisticated as Data's was, but if nothing else, he could be uploaded into a holodeck. We'll just have to see.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

62
And I forgot to mention the Kzinti reference!

The Kzinti were a warlike race of felinoids in Larry Niven's Known Space universe. Niven wrote an episode of TAS called The Slaver Weapon, which featured both the Kzinti and a piece of ancient technology from his universe. Because of this, some fans consider Star Trek and Known Space to be the same universe. Of course, TAS has been in and out of canon over the years, and some of the odd-looking aliens shown in the Federation Council chambers in Star Trek IV have been considered by some to have been Kzinti. But I've never been a fan of this idea, of any crossover between Star Trek and Niven. For one thing, the future history of Earth as depicted in Niven is very different from the future history of Earth as depicted by Star Trek.

Up until now, this could all be ignored as being presumably outside canon. But not after this week. So I guess I might concede that the Kzinti exist in both universes. It's just not the same universe.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

63
I was choked up during reunion scenes with Troi and Riker, I mean it was nice to see 7 of 9 and Hugh, but nothing compared to the emotional connection Picard has with Troi and Riker. Troi was definitely being Troi and was never one to back down from saying what she needed to say, even to Picard. Riker seems to be enjoying the retirement life... I remember the Riker of the first couple of seasons of TNG, straight laced, by the book, not much humor, but as the TNG matured, Riker became one of my favorite characters and Jonathon Frakes is a really nice person when I met him at a comic con.

I have always found it so interesting with in Star Trek, with all the technology the Rikers are growing their own basil, yet still have shields around their house. Guess you cant give up ALL the 'modern' luxuries :P

I really hope we see more of the Troi-Rikers, there's just so much of a bond between the characters.

They have a lot of story to tie up in 3 episodes, hope it doesnt feel rushed at the end, the show started out a slow burn, but things have really picked up these last couple of episodes.

If they brought back 7 of 9 just to kill her off, I am going to be royally cheesed off.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Picard returns!

66
Well questions are starting tp be answered. and the show is rocketing toward its conclusion.

So, Oh is half-Rom, half-Vulcan. This explains why she can meld. Mixed Vulcanoids are not unprecedented in Star Trek. I can't recall whether any were canonically established on-screen, but the novelization backstory for Saavik was that she was half-Rom. I think Valeris was also. Want an unconventional Vulcan? Make them half-Romulan.

I loved the scene with the many holograms of Rios. It gives the actor a chance to show off his chops, a sorely needed chance, considering how small his role otherwise usually is.

Nice scene where Soji asks Picard how he and Data felt about each other.

Lastly, Seven as the new, and hopefully only temporary, Borg Queen. OMG.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

68
And now we are coming to the close. Everything is making sense. And there is an android cat, love it, love it, love it! Though technically he wouldn't be an android, since that means person-shaped. Catdroid?

I like the variation in appearance among the androids, suggesting varying increases in sophistication, or humanness of appearance, from the level of Data.

I am wondering if the "golem" being produced by Altan Soong will end up being used to house Data's consciousness. I still have to imagine that's up the show's sleeve, to bring back Data in some fashion.

So, how will this wrap up? Will Sutra succeed in summoning the super-synths from beyond, and unleash chaos upon the galaxy? Or will the Federation fleet arrive and do battle with the Romulans? All of that? None of that? Stay tuned!
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

71
Valkrist wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:46 pm Anyone heard anything about the status of season 2 beyond the renewal a few months ago? With production halted on everything, I doubt we'll be seeing Picard again anytime soon. :'(

I've been wondering about that too, but with so many other Star Trek projects in the pipeline, they probably haven't even started thinking about Picard yet, and by the time they do, and would be ready to shoot, we'll be a year on, and hopefully the pandemic will be history.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

72
One thing I've forgotten to mention concerns certain images in the "Admonition" vision. One is a quick flash of what's clearly Data, and another includes the Starfleet emblem. If this vision was truly created hundreds of thousands of years ago, how is this possible? My theory: this involves Control in the future, and it somehow seeded the vision into the past. Or something like that!
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

73
Olorin wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:37 pm One thing I've forgotten to mention concerns certain images in the "Admonition" vision. One is a quick flash of what's clearly Data, and another includes the Starfleet emblem. If this vision was truly created hundreds of thousands of years ago, how is this possible? My theory: this involves Control in the future, and it somehow seeded the vision into the past. Or something like that!
I hope you are wrong. Very wrong. But you won't be.

I don't want this show or any other Star Trek going forward from here having any link to Discovery, but sadly there's zero chance that's not going to happen. I can't stand shameless retconning to push forward lazy writing and rewriting history out of convenience and that's basically Discovery's one claim to fame to date.

I'd still be a 100% up for an Anson Mount-led Enterprise show, but I'd be content to view that as a part of a self-contained universe as well. Just no more Michael Burnham is the centre of the universe plotlines, please.

/rant
This Space for Rent

Re: Picard returns!

74
I'll plop this here, since a lot of the discussion surrounding Picard is its darker vision of the Federation. This is entertaining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzAKGfruWJU

Beyond whether it's lazy writing to tie Picard to Discovery, I think there's something else afoot. CBS has expressed a desire to have an interconnected Star Trek franchise, a la Marvel. And of course one of the hallmarks of Marvel is the interconnectedness of the movies. So, monkey see, monkey do.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

75
Wow... they want something they've always had?!? All the previous shows and movies were already interconnected (with a couple of minor glitches here and there). No one tried to reinvent the wheel into a square shape until Discovery came along. Even the JJ movies were contained within their own universe, with a reasonable connection to the previous continuum.

I'll bet the new CBS execs and writers are climbing all over themselves to take credit for something the Star Trek universe has had since STTMP came out and continued on from TOS. Please. :rolleye:

To quote the admiral in Picard: "The sheer *bleepin* hubris...!"
This Space for Rent

Re: Picard returns!

77
The finale has come and gone, so I guess I'll go first.

I've purposefully not commented on the last handful of episodes because at some point I decided that it would be best to leave the small elements alone and just focus on the entirety of the show once the season was finished.

I'll start off by saying that for a show titled 'Picard', it sure looked like it was really about Data. Not that my fondness for the latter is any less than what I feel for our beloved captain, but it seems now like we spent ten episodes in what amounted to an effort to bring closure to something that happened in a movie 18 years ago, It all began promisingly enough, with enough forward-moving events that finally got us past this obsession with revisiting the past, but in the end that's exactly where we returned. We had dealt with Data's death already. Did we need to go there again? I was beginning to think halfway through the show that we would see Data's return to life in one fashion or another, not a pull-the-plug moment.

Anyhow, this leads to what for me was the biggest disappointment of all: Picard's death.

There was no twist; no surprise; no shock; no... nothing. The show had been very bluntly telling us for some time that Picard's time was nearly up. Ok. The moment the golem is shown in last week's episode, it all clicked into place and put on display how threadbare the writing is. It was too obvious, but they couldn't keep themselves from showing their hand too early. Oh I know that if we hadn't seen the golem and then they pulled it out of nowhere at the last moment to give Picard a new body, it would've been even worse for the lack of setup. However, the solution would have been much easier: don't kill Picard.

The death of a great character shouldn't feel this hollow or inconsequential, especially when its impact is undone in about five minutes or less. Sure it made Soji collapse the portal, but I have my own problems with that. The ease with which Picard's death was handled recalls the similar trend on Discovery where death seems to have no meaning, characters can come back with ease and convenience, and the writers are too afraid to take risks. It's also very hard to feel anything close to sadness or shock when it's announced weeks before that the show had been renewed for a second season, and that they intend to run it for four seasons in total. Were we supposed to think at some point that they would be changing the show's title because Picard was going to die? No. We knew this wouldn't happen and therefore the big event of the finale feels ho-hum.

Then there's the absolutely breezy way in which Picard himself handles it all. For a man deeply in touch with his humanity and who had his existence shattered by his experience with Borg assimilation, something that haunted him until the end, coming back to life in an android body is treated more or less like a "this is so cool!" moment than the rather important existential crisis one would expect him to have. It was just too convenient, easy, and very poorly handled. Picard deserves better writing than that. Patrick Stewart deserves better respect than that. Perhaps they will explore the personal ramifications of this new existence in the next season, but the way in which everything was so quickly, neatly, and conveniently wrapped up in just a few minutes makes me very skeptical of that.

I should note that my problem with Picard's shrugging off of something this momentous doesn't come from feeling that he's no longer Picard or 'real'. At first I struggled with that, feeling like I was just looking at a cheap copy and that my Picard was well and truly dead. I suppose in the true sense, he is, but only the vessel that carried his consciousness. As previously established on TNG with the struggles that Data went through, he was considered an individual, and I'm more than willing to accord the new Picard that status. This is fiction, after all, and I didn't view Spock any differently after his atoms were reconstituted by the Genesis effect either.

Onward to the rest, mixing the good and bad as I think of stuff:

- Going back an episode, I'm glad that the awkward "I love you" moment shared between Raffi and Picard went nowhere. I'm sure I was supposed to feel something when it happened, but there was nothing but confusion and "huh?" coming out of me at that moment, followed by a sensation of "seriously"? Nothing inherently wrong with the revelation, mind you, but it felt meaningless to me as the viewer because we have almost no connection to Raffi. We get a bit of background and some insight into her fractious relationship with Picard, but I felt we were being asked to accept that someone we have watched and known intimately for two decades was now going to be romantically attached to someone we barely knew. There's just no investment or believability to it because we've not seen that relationship grow and develop, we just have to accept that it was always there. Obviously there wasn't time, but it helps to provide a connection for us when we see this happen, like Riker and Troi, Worf and Jadzia, and Paris and Torres. I was left feeling like I could care less about Raffi and Picard because of the detachment I felt for her. Luckily, it looks like this will be brushed under the rug as an expression of love between friends rather than something romantic.

- Following from the point above, was the very rushed and next "huh?" moment for me, when we see Seven and Raffi interlocking fingers on the ship near the end. Say what? At least with Picard, she would have had 14 years or more to develop something, but didn't these two just meet? I'm not so old-fashioned to not believe in instant attraction and acting upon such impulses - I've been there myself - but this felt extremely out of left field, and forced. Again, in this age where inclusion and pandering seem to be overriding everything, I guess they needed to shoehorn a last minute same-sex relationship between characters with zero history together? Lastly, not that it matters, but was there ever any indication that Seven was gay, or at least bi? I seem to recall her spurning Harry Kim's advances, but didn't she end Voyager in a relationship of sorts with Chakotay? I'm sure that likely didn't work out, but I'm always wary of retconning established characters and giving them new traits simply because you feel a need to be up with the times. That bothers me to no end. Introduce all the new LGBTQ characters you want, but please don't force me to accept that characters that we are already supposed to know well suddenly have these major surprises for us. Seeing that simple hand gesture between Raffi and Seven to me was the same as if they'd shown Picard and Rios locking lips. Again, zero wrong with that except that would be a revelation about Picard that I think very few would be willing to accept this late in the game. Seven doesn't have quite as much of a foothold in our gallery of heroes from the past, but she's up there. It felt jarring and again, very forced.

- Agnes Jurati - so... what happened to turning herself in? Seems everyone has conveniently forgotten she murdered a man, including her.

- Narek - after the failed attempt to destroy the beacon, he just... disappears?

- Riker - how utterly awesome was it to see him in uniform again and in command of an armada? His trash-talking swagger was vintage William Riker, and as good as it felt seeing him and Troi again in their homestead, this was the moment I was hoping for. Going back to Picard's death though, I did find it utterly baffling and disappointing that he would let his best friend in the universe just take off like that and not have him be at his side in his last moments. Yeah, yeah... lots going on, timing, and Picard possibly wanting to spare his friend the pain of what was about to happen, but it just felt wrong that Picard essentially spends his last moments surrounded by what amounts to strangers, and not being comforted by the people that have loved and cared for him for most of his life. Having Rios shed tears for Picard was meaningless to me. This was on the level of Kirk dying alone with only Picard present, rather than Spock and McCoy. Obviously you can't time these moments and who is around you, but in this instance, Picard actually had a chance to have Riker be there for him but he didn't cuz... reasons?

- General Uh Oh - Ok, so Starfleet just lets her take off when she's probably had her fingers in every level of Federation security and state secrets for the past 20 years? Right. Also, planetary sterilization pattern number five?!? How many ways do the Romulans have of destroying a world of all life? And did it seem like she had about three or four different occasions where there was plenty of time to fire on the planet, yet there's inexplicable pauses that conveniently give time for Starfleet to show up? Bad editing?

- CGI makes people lazy? Remember those epic space battles in DS9 when you'd see ships of multiple and varied designs on both sides going at it? Could the Romulan and Starfleet armadas in this episode have looked more generic and computer-generated? Talk about boring. When Riker shows up, I honestly thought for one second they were doing their own version of the Picard maneuver as all the ships looked like mirror copies. But nope. I guess in the years since we last saw Starfleet, they've picked one ship design that works and mass-produced it. Not a bad idea in principle, but I always thought the different ships were designed that way to provide versatility in their missions. I guess what we saw was the military model, and they happen to have 200 of them standing by at a moment's notice. Ok. Things have definitely changed.

- Narissa - good riddance, she was annoying, but I'm baffled by something that makes me think I missed seeing it. How did she get on the Borg cube? Last I recall seeing her, she'd fled after the battle with Elnor, gets on one of the Romulan ships, and has all the Borg drones vented out into space before Seven fully gets control of the cube. Then the Romulans warp out and wait for Narek's signal to follow. So... how did she get back on the cube before the rest of the Romulan fleet arrived at the planet???

- Seven - she takes the momentous step of reconnecting not only with the Collective, but assumes the role of Queen temporarily. Yet, moments later and for the rest of the season, there's no... nothing? I get this show is not about her, but anyone that knows the character knows how huge and impactful that moment was. But again, there's nothing... no consequences, no thoughts, no comments, no PTSD, just... nothing. Like it was cool to do it for that moment in the plot, and then it doesn't matter anymore so let's pretend and have her act like it didn't happen. Right.

- Finally, the Synth Overlords, or whatever they go by - they couldn't have made it more obvious that this show ties in with Discovery now. I sincerely hope this doesn't come back to bite them in the rear, but we all know better. That other show's trampling of continuity is now infamous, but now it looks set to contaminate Picard as well. The presence and appearance of the tentacles (exactly like the ones we saw attacking that ship in Discovery) signify - at least to me - that Control is once again behind all this. I'm beginning to think Control is in charge of the writing team for Star Trek at CBS as well. This trend of having to have everything be interconnected and have that one big baddie that somehow has orchestrated everything from day 1, even though the idea of it all was developed on day 24736428, is just being stupid to me. Not everything has to loop back to everything else. Witness how paper-thin and implausible it all felt when they did that with the recent Bond films - exposing that one villain as the mastermind behind the plot of every preceding movie. All that does to me is undermine the originality of things and the knowledge that events can and do happen in the universe that are independent of one another. Let Marvel take the other route: they've perfected it to an art, and I love it, but can we please stop trying to copy them and make everything else that way now? I guess we'll see where this goes, but if the USS Discovery or whatever it's doing 900 years in the future starts to dictate the further events of the Picard show, then I'm losing interest already.

Final thoughts - Despite all my negatives, and they are considerable, I still enjoyed this show quite a bit - surprise! I do wonder how much of that was nostalgia though, coupled with the excitement of finally having this universe move forward a bit rather than constantly going backwards as it has of late. Still, I was disheartened that for all of the cool buildup, mystery, and intrigue, the resolution was utterly predictable, and quickly and conveniently wrapped up. The best example I can give is that, did we really think for a moment that Starfleet wouldn't show up at the last moment to stop the Romulans? It was one of the most overused clichés I can possibly think of, and when it happened, I just shrugged and had to accept it because I knew it was coming anyway. They think they are being so edgy with the swearing (which I've concluded I can do without because it continues to feel out of place and needless), yet they can't seem to break the pattern of safety and take a risk or two where it truly matters.

Colour me not hopeful for the future of Trek.
This Space for Rent

Re: Picard returns!

79
Same as Olorin... I am gonna dive deeper later.

I will say the best moment was Riker showing up! Jeez that gave me some chills.

And a quick note, I figured, at the beginning of the season when they mentioned Picards illness, thats how they would have closed out the show, after a few seasons, we got to spend this last bit with Picard and it would have been his send off when the show gets cancelled/comes to its natural end, or Patrick Stewart is not able to perform (he is almost 80) the role.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Picard returns!

80
BladeCollector wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:39 am
And a quick note, I figured, at the beginning of the season when they mentioned Picards illness, thats how they would have closed out the show, after a few seasons, we got to spend this last bit with Picard and it would have been his send off when the show gets cancelled/comes to its natural end, or Patrick Stewart is not able to perform (he is almost 80) the role.
My thoughts exactly. The moment they mentioned he had something terminal, I thought this is it, this is how the show - meaning in its entirety- will end, with a tearful farewell and a heartfelt thank you for going around the galaxy one last time with us.

Instead, this is what we got. :huh:
This Space for Rent

Re: Picard returns!

81
OK, so now I am off the clock and ready to post a bit. In getting used to this new work-from-home environment, I am mindful about what I'm doing.

So first, some thoughts on last night's episode. While I certainly did not dislike it, I will say it felt very rushed, and things that were being set up over some period of time were paid off very quickly and in some cases, unsatisfactorily.

Ay, caramba! Yes, Rios really said that. I started looking around to see if Bart Simpson was holding up Aunt Patty's and Aunt Selma's bras. It also made me think of the time I saw Patrick Stewart at a Star Trek convention and a fan made a comment about Picard saying "merde" in an episode. Stewart apparently didn't remember it and mock-outraged proclaimed he had not, and would the fan next have him having said "sacre bleu?" I don't know any Hispanic people well so I don't know in general if they really say that, or if it would be like if I said, "Jeepers!" And then add in the Year 2399 factor.

I always assumed the Federation fleet would show up at the last minute to save the day. I first assumed it would be just to do battle with the Romulans, but once the concept of the portal came up, and the synths from beyond space, I thought perhaps the Federation and the Romulans would join forces to defeat them. But once it was spelled out there was no way that the fleet could arrive in time, I wasn't sure whether they would show up. From Riker's comment about just because he wouldn't talk Picard out of his plans, it didn't mean he wouldn't help, I infer that to mean that as soon as Picard left Nepenthe, Riker contacted Starfleet, a fleet was assembled, and they set out. I think this must be the only way they could've arrived in time, without using the Borg conduit. And they did not appear to use the conduit. But this all begs the question, if Riker started putting a fleet together as soon as Picard left, why didn't Admiral Clancy tell Picard this when she said a fleet would meet him DS 12? She's Commander, Starfleet; she had to have known. Something about the sequencing here is wrong.

Now to address some of Val's points.
Valkrist wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:07 am I'll start off by saying that for a show titled 'Picard', it sure looked like it was really about Data. Not that my fondness for the latter is any less than what I feel for our beloved captain, but it seems now like we spent ten episodes in what amounted to an effort to bring closure to something that happened in a movie 18 years ago, It all began promisingly enough, with enough forward-moving events that finally got us past this obsession with revisiting the past, but in the end that's exactly where we returned. We had dealt with Data's death already. Did we need to go there again? I was beginning to think halfway through the show that we would see Data's return to life in one fashion or another, not a pull-the-plug moment. I guess they must have felt like Picard's remorse over Data's death had to be a driving factor in his arc for the first season. True, we as fans had dealt with Data's death, and Picard himself seemed to have dealt with it by the end of Nemesis. But apparently like his Borg experience, there are some things he can't quite let go of. And now in the twilight of his life and feeling his own mortality, I think it's realistic for these old feelings to get stirred up. So I don't have a problem with that.

Anyhow, this leads to what for me was the biggest disappointment of all: Picard's death.

There was no twist; no surprise; no shock; no... nothing. The show had been very bluntly telling us for some time that Picard's time was nearly up. Ok. The moment the golem is shown in last week's episode, it all clicked into place and put on display how threadbare the writing is. It was too obvious, but they couldn't keep themselves from showing their hand too early. Oh I know that if we hadn't seen the golem and then they pulled it out of nowhere at the last moment to give Picard a new body, it would've been even worse for the lack of setup. However, the solution would have been much easier: don't kill Picard. Read here: https://trekmovie.com/2020/03/26/michae ... -season-2/ I knew the golem would be used for one of our heroes, but I thought it would be Data. I mostly expected he would return to life "permanently" by the end of the series. I knew from the earlier references to Maddox' ability to recreate his memories from fractal neuronal cloning that beyond any doubt, at a minimum Data's consciousness would exist in a holodeck, if nothing else. When the golem was introduced (which Picard incorrectly pronounced "Gollum" in the final episode, yes he did, Precious, yes he did), I assumed wrongly that his consciousness would be installed in it. I thought that all the more so since the golem would undoubtedly be configured to look like Data, as it was intended to house Altan Soong's mind. But my ability to correctly prognosticate Star Trek seems to be very limited. Instead, Data asks to die. This was unexpected, yet in keeping with his character and his desire to fully experience what it means to be human. It was also consonant with other sci fi I've read, where AIs ultimately decide they wish to die. But at the end of the day, we lost Data again. I was saddened by this, though in sci fi no one is ever truly dead. He can always be brought back. But after his speech about something being immortal that isn't supposed to be, not being real, any future resurrections would totally undermine that.

The death of a great character shouldn't feel this hollow or inconsequential, especially when its impact is undone in about five minutes or less. Sure it made Soji collapse the portal, but I have my own problems with that. The ease with which Picard's death was handled recalls the similar trend on Discovery where death seems to have no meaning, characters can come back with ease and convenience, and the writers are too afraid to take risks. It's also very hard to feel anything close to sadness or shock when it's announced weeks before that the show had been renewed for a second season, and that they intend to run it for four seasons in total. Were we supposed to think at some point that they would be changing the show's title because Picard was going to die? No. We knew this wouldn't happen and therefore the big event of the finale feels ho-hum.

Then there's the absolutely breezy way in which Picard himself handles it all. For a man deeply in touch with his humanity and who had his existence shattered by his experience with Borg assimilation, something that haunted him until the end, coming back to life in an android body is treated more or less like a "this is so cool!" moment than the rather important existential crisis one would expect him to have. It was just too convenient, easy, and very poorly handled. Picard deserves better writing than that. Patrick Stewart deserves better respect than that. Perhaps they will explore the personal ramifications of this new existence in the next season, but the way in which everything was so quickly, neatly, and conveniently wrapped up in just a few minutes makes me very skeptical of that. Again, see the link.

I should note that my problem with Picard's shrugging off of something this momentous doesn't come from feeling that he's no longer Picard or 'real'. At first I struggled with that, feeling like I was just looking at a cheap copy and that my Picard was well and truly dead. I suppose in the true sense, he is, but only the vessel that carried his consciousness. As previously established on TNG with the struggles that Data went through, he was considered an individual, and I'm more than willing to accord the new Picard that status. This is fiction, after all, and I didn't view Spock any differently after his atoms were reconstituted by the Genesis effect either. I would have had a real problem with it for Picard had they not made clear a while back that they had a process to transfer actual consciousness and not just copy over the memories. They didn't mention "soul," but Star Trek doesn't usually deal in souls. However, I felt when Picard was going to leave the simulation containing Data, the light flooding in through the door was a reference to the "tunnel of light" the dying supposedly see. In any event, Picard's consciousness was transferred. He is Picard. Ripley is only a clone with some of Ripley's memories. She is not Ripley.

Onward to the rest, mixing the good and bad as I think of stuff:

- Going back an episode, I'm glad that the awkward "I love you" moment shared between Raffi and Picard went nowhere. I'm sure I was supposed to feel something when it happened, but there was nothing but confusion and "huh?" coming out of me at that moment, followed by a sensation of "seriously"? Nothing inherently wrong with the revelation, mind you, but it felt meaningless to me as the viewer because we have almost no connection to Raffi. We get a bit of background and some insight into her fractious relationship with Picard, but I felt we were being asked to accept that someone we have watched and known intimately for two decades was now going to be romantically attached to someone we barely knew. There's just no investment or believability to it because we've not seen that relationship grow and develop, we just have to accept that it was always there. Obviously there wasn't time, but it helps to provide a connection for us when we see this happen, like Riker and Troi, Worf and Jadzia, and Paris and Torres. I was left feeling like I could care less about Raffi and Picard because of the detachment I felt for her. Luckily, it looks like this will be brushed under the rug as an expression of love between friends rather than something romantic. I in no way interpreted her "I love you" as an expression of romantic love. That never occurred to me for a second. I think it was simply that she felt she was saying a final goodbye to a dear friend who was about to die, and she was not going to miss the opportunity to tell him she cared. If I thought I was saying a final goodbye to my best friend and thought I'd never see him again, I'd certainly tell him I loved him.

- Following from the point above, was the very rushed and next "huh?" moment for me, when we see Seven and Raffi interlocking fingers on the ship near the end. Say what? At least with Picard, she would have had 14 years or more to develop something, but didn't these two just meet? I'm not so old-fashioned to not believe in instant attraction and acting upon such impulses - I've been there myself - but this felt extremely out of left field, and forced. Again, in this age where inclusion and pandering seem to be overriding everything, I guess they needed to shoehorn a last minute same-sex relationship between characters with zero history together? Lastly, not that it matters, but was there ever any indication that Seven was gay, or at least bi? I seem to recall her spurning Harry Kim's advances, but didn't she end Voyager in a relationship of sorts with Chakotay? I'm sure that likely didn't work out, but I'm always wary of retconning established characters and giving them new traits simply because you feel a need to be up with the times. That bothers me to no end. Introduce all the new LGBTQ characters you want, but please don't force me to accept that characters that we are already supposed to know well suddenly have these major surprises for us. Seeing that simple hand gesture between Raffi and Seven to me was the same as if they'd shown Picard and Rios locking lips. Again, zero wrong with that except that would be a revelation about Picard that I think very few would be willing to accept this late in the game. Seven doesn't have quite as much of a foothold in our gallery of heroes from the past, but she's up there. It felt jarring and again, very forced. Here's where I zing you. ;-P You were not paying attention in the Freecloud episode, where it was strongly implied that Seven and Bjayzel had had a relationship, and you were not paying attention, or have forgotten, my comment about it when I posted about that episode. Beyond that, although the very friendly finger entwining between Seven and Raffi surprised me just a tiny hair because it seemed a little abrupt, I think it's very realistic for Seven to still be discovering her sexuality. Real women who have never been assimilated by the Borg and have sexual desire eradicated often don't figure out their desires until later in life. So, although Seven did have a relationship with Chakotay, it seems completely natural that she's figuring out she likes women also. Speaking of Chakotay, I was watching a video about Seven on YouTube today, and the YouTuber kept pronouncing his name "CHUCKotay" when obviously we all know it was "chuKOtay."

- Agnes Jurati - so... what happened to turning herself in? Seems everyone has conveniently forgotten she murdered a man, including her.

- Narek - after the failed attempt to destroy the beacon, he just... disappears? I haven't rewatched the episode yet, but I thought the scene in which Sutra shows Soong over a monitor that she has captured Narek, that she might have splattered his head, because I thought I saw blood spash onto the camera lens. But later I thought I saw Narek alive. So I'm confused if he's alive or not.

- Riker - how utterly awesome was it to see him in uniform again and in command of an armada? His trash-talking swagger was vintage William Riker, and as good as it felt seeing him and Troi again in their homestead, this was the moment I was hoping for. Going back to Picard's death though, I did find it utterly baffling and disappointing that he would let his best friend in the universe just take off like that and not have him be at his side in his last moments. Yeah, yeah... lots going on, timing, and Picard possibly wanting to spare his friend the pain of what was about to happen, but it just felt wrong that Picard essentially spends his last moments surrounded by what amounts to strangers, and not being comforted by the people that have loved and cared for him for most of his life. Having Rios shed tears for Picard was meaningless to me. This was on the level of Kirk dying alone with only Picard present, rather than Spock and McCoy. Obviously you can't time these moments and who is around you, but in this instance, Picard actually had a chance to have Riker be there for him but he didn't cuz... reasons? This hadn't really occurred to me, and it's kind of hard to argue with you on it. I'm sure they wanted to emphasize the bond with the new crew, but still....

- General Uh Oh - Ok, so Starfleet just lets her take off when she's probably had her fingers in every level of Federation security and state secrets for the past 20 years? Right. It's not clear to me that Starfleet was ever informed about Oh's double agency. Also, planetary sterilization pattern number five?!? How many ways do the Romulans have of destroying a world of all life? And did it seem like she had about three or four different occasions where there was plenty of time to fire on the planet, yet there's inexplicable pauses that conveniently give time for Starfleet to show up? Bad editing? A YouTuber pointed that out and attributed it to artificially drawing out the moment to heighten the tension and leave time for intervention. I.e., bad writing.

- CGI makes people lazy? Remember those epic space battles in DS9 when you'd see ships of multiple and varied designs on both sides going at it? Could the Romulan and Starfleet armadas in this episode have looked more generic and computer-generated? Talk about boring. When Riker shows up, I honestly thought for one second they were doing their own version of the Picard maneuver as all the ships looked like mirror copies. But nope. I guess in the years since we last saw Starfleet, they've picked one ship design that works and mass-produced it. Not a bad idea in principle, but I always thought the different ships were designed that way to provide versatility in their missions. I guess what we saw was the military model, and they happen to have 200 of them standing by at a moment's notice. Ok. Things have definitely changed. This was not a well-staged confrontation, and the in-space CGI on these CBS treks has always been less than stellar.

- Narissa - good riddance, she was annoying, but I'm baffled by something that makes me think I missed seeing it. How did she get on the Borg cube? Last I recall seeing her, she'd fled after the battle with Elnor, gets on one of the Romulan ships, and has all the Borg drones vented out into space before Seven fully gets control of the cube. Then the Romulans warp out and wait for Narek's signal to follow. So... how did she get back on the cube before the rest of the Romulan fleet arrived at the planet??? She never left it. We never see her leave when the XBs have her down, and in the final episode she says something about having hidden on the cube. I assume she's been there the whole time.

- Seven - she takes the momentous step of reconnecting not only with the Collective, but assumes the role of Queen temporarily. Yet, moments later and for the rest of the season, there's no... nothing? I get this show is not about her, but anyone that knows the character knows how huge and impactful that moment was. But again, there's nothing... no consequences, no thoughts, no comments, no PTSD, just... nothing. Like it was cool to do it for that moment in the plot, and then it doesn't matter anymore so let's pretend and have her act like it didn't happen. Right. Some followup definitely would've been good. I don't know if she will be in Season 2, so we may never get it. Of course, there's talk of her getting her own show. Because, why wouldn't she?

- Finally, the Synth Overlords, or whatever they go by - they couldn't have made it more obvious that this show ties in with Discovery now. I sincerely hope this doesn't come back to bite them in the rear, but we all know better. That other show's trampling of continuity is now infamous, but now it looks set to contaminate Picard as well. The presence and appearance of the tentacles (exactly like the ones we saw attacking that ship in Discovery) signify - at least to me - that Control is once again behind all this. I'm beginning to think Control is in charge of the writing team for Star Trek at CBS as well. This trend of having to have everything be interconnected and have that one big baddie that somehow has orchestrated everything from day 1, even though the idea of it all was developed on day 24736428, is just being stupid to me. Not everything has to loop back to everything else. Witness how paper-thin and implausible it all felt when they did that with the recent Bond films - exposing that one villain as the mastermind behind the plot of every preceding movie. All that does to me is undermine the originality of things and the knowledge that events can and do happen in the universe that are independent of one another. Let Marvel take the other route: they've perfected it to an art, and I love it, but can we please stop trying to copy them and make everything else that way now? I guess we'll see where this goes, but if the USS Discovery or whatever it's doing 900 years in the future starts to dictate the further events of the Picard show, then I'm losing interest already. Speaking of the Synth Overlords, and yes I agree it's unfortunately going to be Control, that portal scene looked very familiar. Remember in the first Hellboy when he is opening the portal, and the evil Lovecraftian entities are about to come through? Then he closes it.

Final thoughts - Despite all my negatives, and they are considerable, I still enjoyed this show quite a bit - surprise! I do wonder how much of that was nostalgia though, coupled with the excitement of finally having this universe move forward a bit rather than constantly going backwards as it has of late. Still, I was disheartened that for all of the cool buildup, mystery, and intrigue, the resolution was utterly predictable, and quickly and conveniently wrapped up. The best example I can give is that, did we really think for a moment that Starfleet wouldn't show up at the last moment to stop the Romulans? It was one of the most overused clichés I can possibly think of, and when it happened, I just shrugged and had to accept it because I knew it was coming anyway. They think they are being so edgy with the swearing (which I've concluded I can do without because it continues to feel out of place and needless), yet they can't seem to break the pattern of safety and take a risk or two where it truly matters. I liked the series overall. I had expectations that certainly were not met, because they were unrealistically high, but I think it was about as good as it could've been coming from the current producers of Star Trek. I am going to hold off on formulating further opinions of it until after I've binge-watched it. I appreciated Discovery a ton more after binge-watching it than I did watching each episode once a week.

Colour me not hopeful for the future of Trek. I guess I've made my peace with the fact that it's fundamentally different from TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT, but it remains Star Trek enough at its core, at least for me, that I will continue to tune in, and hope.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

82
Valkrist wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:12 am
BladeCollector wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:39 am
And a quick note, I figured, at the beginning of the season when they mentioned Picards illness, thats how they would have closed out the show, after a few seasons, we got to spend this last bit with Picard and it would have been his send off when the show gets cancelled/comes to its natural end, or Patrick Stewart is not able to perform (he is almost 80) the role.
My thoughts exactly. The moment they mentioned he had something terminal, I thought this is it, this is how the show - meaning in its entirety- will end, with a tearful farewell and a heartfelt thank you for going around the galaxy one last time with us.

Instead, this is what we got. :huh:
I am not with you guys on this one. We got a definitive end to Kirk, and although at the time I felt it was beyond time to say goodbye to him, I realized in retrospect it was very poorly done. And I ultimately realized I'd preferred we not experience his death at all. I am realizing I'm not one who has to know "whatever happened to" if it's not going to be a happy ending.

When they announced the Picard series and its timeframe, I knew they'd have to deal with his Irumodic syndrome, at least if any of them had ever watched All Good Things. And when it was brought up early on in the series (although never by name...odd), I wondered how long it would be before they played it out, and I feared it would be the final goodbye to the character. Now that they have played the card, and Picard is installed in a brand-new body with wrinkly, liver-spotted skin, his future becomes open-ended again. We can have the show end with Picard sailing into the sunset, and we can believe he will always be alive, like Kirk at the end of Star Trek VI. (Until Generations killed him). Perhaps his android resurrection, or something akin to it, might've served the show better if it had been held until the end of the series, now is when we got it, and I am content with that.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

83
OK, here are answers to most, if not all, of the things we've wondered about, and promises for more answers yet to come. I prefer answers to come within episodes, vs from producer statements that can be walked back or disavowed, but I'll take what I get, and this gives an awful lot.

https://trekmovie.com/2020/03/28/michae ... -and-more/

Perhaps most notable here is that, in so many words, Chabon says the Synths from Beyond Space are not Control. Take it for what it's worth.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

84
Olorin wrote: OK, here are answers to most, if not all, of the things we've wondered about, and promises for more answers yet to come. I prefer answers to come within episodes, vs from producer statements that can be walked back or disavowed, but I'll take what I get, and this gives an awful lot.

https://trekmovie.com/2020/03/28/michae ... -and-more/

Perhaps most notable here is that, in so many words, Chabon says the Synths from Beyond Space are not Control. Take it for what it's worth.
Before I comment on the article, I'll have to concede I fully did not recall your comment about Seven's implied relationship with Bjayzel, though I definitely read your post. I guess the mention of it and the clues in the actual episode didn't make nearly as much of an impression on me as that scene on the finale between Raffi and Seven. As I stated, I could care less about same-sex couples - I'm a strong advocate of everyone being free to choose how to pursue their personal happiness, It just felt that a new template was being placed over what we know of Seven in an effort to be inclusive. However, I also concede that having spent most of her life as a Borg, the 3-4 years we get to see of her trying to function as a new adult on Voyager certainly wouldn't be enough for her to figure this kind of stuff out. Heck, some people take their entire life before fully admitting something or other about themselves, so viewed in that new light, I'm ok with it now... though I still think it seemed rushed, and referencing the article, I don't know if they mean the clues were only about Seven or that Raffi also had such leanings, or that there was a prior exchange between them that I missed? Who knows, but I definitely need to watch the season again.

On to the article.

I have faith that they will follow through with the implication of Picard's new existence as an android and not simply shelve it in the "whatever happened last season" box. It's simply too big an issue to ignore, so I'll face the new season with hopes of some follow-through. Same goes for Agnes' plotline - there was a lot of smiling and sunshine and rainbows in those last five minutes of the episode and it really felt jarring considering some of the underlying issues with these characters. It almost felt like the end of some episodes on TOS when Kirk and McCoy would share a hearty laugh on the bridge while Spock looked on in bemusement, conveniently ignoring the fact that only just earlier, several red-shirted crewmen had met their maker. There are some dark loose ends at the end of Picard, and they need to be tied up.

Narek - my turn to zing you. The blood spray we see is him holding that synth still for when Sutra comes into the frame and stabs the butterfly pin into her eye. That's what caused the blood spray to cover the screen as we are watching the events from the murdered synth's POV. I'm surprised you didn't recall that Soong watching that footage comes before Narek himself and the others appear with the grenade to try and thwart Soji. I'm also glad that they admit they made some errors in editing and Narek fell victim to that, which explains how he suddenly and mysteriously disappears.

The CGI Fed ships - Curiosity class? Seriously? When they give the first answer I thought they were just being cheeky because people are being 'curious', but then they refer to it again. Ok, so maybe it's official. As for there being four designs, I sure hope so, though that's still a far cry from the two dozen or so designs we've come to enjoy over the last few decades.

The Synths from Beyond not being Control or associated with Discovery - I'm going to continue being cynical and call BS on this one. We all know what's going on, and I found the answers given to be denials with an asterisk, both of them sounding very disingenuous and leaving room for interpretation. All I could hear in my head was JJ's writing team affirming time and time again that Benedict Cumberbatch was NOT playing Khan. Mmmmhmmm, sure thing, boss! They know exactly what they're doing, and they'll just pull a Trump later and says that's not really what they said, and that they meant something else. Wait and see.

Oh gets away while twirling her villainous moustache - Ok, even you have to admit that they gave a very stupid and dismissive answer to that one. It has nothing to do with being bloodthirsty in wanting her held to account, and everything to do with the ramifications of infiltration and a massive security breach and blunder at the highest levels of Starfleet. I guess they're also willing to forgive and forget Romulan assassins beaming in and out and killing with impunity on Earth? We're just going shrug it all off with an "Oh well? It's a wonder the Federation hasn't collapsed then if that's their new attitude. I guess the article's stated opinion and disparagement of Section 31 is part of this new view that Starfleet is basically run by a bunch of inept people. This is very much at odds with everything we know. Sure every government and organization slips up from time to time, but I smell a lot of logic and common sense here being sacrificed on the altar of story convenience.
This Space for Rent

Re: Picard returns!

85
Valkrist wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:06 am
Olorin wrote: OK, here are answers to most, if not all, of the things we've wondered about, and promises for more answers yet to come. I prefer answers to come within episodes, vs from producer statements that can be walked back or disavowed, but I'll take what I get, and this gives an awful lot.

https://trekmovie.com/2020/03/28/michae ... -and-more/

Perhaps most notable here is that, in so many words, Chabon says the Synths from Beyond Space are not Control. Take it for what it's worth.
Before I comment on the article, I'll have to concede I fully did not recall your comment about Seven's implied relationship with Bjayzel, though I definitely read your post. I guess the mention of it and the clues in the actual episode didn't make nearly as much of an impression on me as that scene on the finale between Raffi and Seven. As I stated, I could care less about same-sex couples - I'm a strong advocate of everyone being free to choose how to pursue their personal happiness, It just felt that a new template was being placed over what we know of Seven in an effort to be inclusive. However, I also concede that having spent most of her life as a Borg, the 3-4 years we get to see of her trying to function as a new adult on Voyager certainly wouldn't be enough for her to figure this kind of stuff out. Heck, some people take their entire life before fully admitting something or other about themselves, so viewed in that new light, I'm ok with it now... though I still think it seemed rushed, and referencing the article, I don't know if they mean the clues were only about Seven or that Raffi also had such leanings, or that there was a prior exchange between them that I missed? Who knows, but I definitely need to watch the season again.

On to the article.

I have faith that they will follow through with the implication of Picard's new existence as an android and not simply shelve it in the "whatever happened last season" box. It's simply too big an issue to ignore, so I'll face the new season with hopes of some follow-through. Same goes for Agnes' plotline - there was a lot of smiling and sunshine and rainbows in those last five minutes of the episode and it really felt jarring considering some of the underlying issues with these characters. It almost felt like the end of some episodes on TOS when Kirk and McCoy would share a hearty laugh on the bridge while Spock looked on in bemusement, conveniently ignoring the fact that only just earlier, several red-shirted crewmen had met their maker. There are some dark loose ends at the end of Picard, and they need to be tied up.

Narek - my turn to zing you. The blood spray we see is him holding that synth still for when Sutra comes into the frame and stabs the butterfly pin into her eye. That's what caused the blood spray to cover the screen as we are watching the events from the murdered synth's POV. I'm surprised you didn't recall that Soong watching that footage comes before Narek himself and the others appear with the grenade to try and thwart Soji. I'm also glad that they admit they made some errors in editing and Narek fell victim to that, which explains how he suddenly and mysteriously disappears.

The CGI Fed ships - Curiosity class? Seriously? When they give the first answer I thought they were just being cheeky because people are being 'curious', but then they refer to it again. Ok, so maybe it's official. As for there being four designs, I sure hope so, though that's still a far cry from the two dozen or so designs we've come to enjoy over the last few decades.

The Synths from Beyond not being Control or associated with Discovery - I'm going to continue being cynical and call BS on this one. We all know what's going on, and I found the answers given to be denials with an asterisk, both of them sounding very disingenuous and leaving room for interpretation. All I could hear in my head was JJ's writing team affirming time and time again that Benedict Cumberbatch was NOT playing Khan. Mmmmhmmm, sure thing, boss! They know exactly what they're doing, and they'll just pull a Trump later and says that's not really what they said, and that they meant something else. Wait and see.

Oh gets away while twirling her villainous moustache - Ok, even you have to admit that they gave a very stupid and dismissive answer to that one. It has nothing to do with being bloodthirsty in wanting her held to account, and everything to do with the ramifications of infiltration and a massive security breach and blunder at the highest levels of Starfleet. I guess they're also willing to forgive and forget Romulan assassins beaming in and out and killing with impunity on Earth? We're just going shrug it all off with an "Oh well? It's a wonder the Federation hasn't collapsed then if that's their new attitude. I guess the article's stated opinion and disparagement of Section 31 is part of this new view that Starfleet is basically run by a bunch of inept people. This is very much at odds with everything we know. Sure every government and organization slips up from time to time, but I smell a lot of logic and common sense here being sacrificed on the altar of story convenience.
If Oh were actually to return to her Starfleet job, I’d certainly call BS on that, but since at least Riker has seen her at the head of the Romulan fleet, her days in the federation have to be done.

Narek and the blood. I didn’t catch what was going on there and I haven’t gone back to try to figure it out yet. I thought it seemed out of place time wise at the time.

I’m not necessarily buying that the super synths are not Control, either, and that’s even before being reminded of JJ Company’s track record on responding to really inconvenient questions.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

86
Olorin wrote: If Oh were actually to return to her Starfleet job, I’d certainly call BS on that, but since at least Riker has seen her at the head of the Romulan fleet, her days in the federation have to be done.

Narek and the blood. I didn’t catch what was going on there and I haven’t gone back to try to figure it out yet. I thought it seemed out of place time wise at the time.

I’m not necessarily buying that the super synths are not Control, either, and that’s even before being reminded of JJ Company’s track record on responding to really inconvenient questions.
I wasn't talking about Oh returning to Starfleet, that ship has sailed. Just the general impression I got that no one seemed too fussed about the implications of her actions and the ease with which the Romulans did what they did. Of course, this isn't a show about Starfleet, and I know I'm expecting too much, but a little bit of logic wouldn't hurt once in a while. I suspect this will be forgotten by Season 2. Also hard to hold Oh to account when she's at the head of a 200+ fleet of Warbirds, but something from Riker like "You have much to answer for, General. We'll see each other again, you have my promise." would have been all it took to have me think, alright... consequences.

Narek and the blood - the sequence of events was: Soong manages to retrieve the visual feed from the dead android, plays it back from her POV and sees Narek holding the android while Sutra stabs it in the eye, then we shift to the gathering outside, Soong expresses his disappointment with Sutra for her betrayal and uses his kill switch device on her, Narek and the others show up to destroy the beacon, Narek gets subdued in the scuffle, then disappears for the rest of the show, his fate unknown. That's it.

Super Synths totally are Control. That's my new mantra. People figured this out as early as January by some articles I'm reading, and the writers are now deflecting because their clever little not-surprise has been exposed. Look for some serious back-pedalling in the months to come, only to be revealed down the road that, oops... yeah, it was Control all along. We're still cool and clever, right? RIGHT?

Someone asked a question on another forum and now it's bothering me also, and this is something that was raised early in the show by Raffi. It didn't make sense to her, and it didn't to us either, but when it was confirmed that she was right, we are still left with no plausible answers.

Why would the Zhat Vash hack the synths on Utopia Planitia early, resulting in the destruction of all the ships being built to aid their own people? It's no secret the Romulans can be cold and ruthless, but that's self-genocide on a grand scale, and I never got the impression that the Zhat Vash, despite their personal agenda, had anything against their own people. Why not wait until the ships were complete and the rescue effort realized, and therefore have a massive part of their population saved? Doing it after would still get the point across that the synths were dangerous, and only Federation personnel would suffer as a result, something I'm sure the Zhat Vash could care less about. The Federation would have still enacted the synth ban, and no Romulans live would have been lost.

I know the argument was made that by doing so, they would throw suspicion off the Romulans themselves for being responsible for the synth revolt, but the trade off seems insanely disproportionate and I can't see the Zhat Vash being that callous and ruthless (no way they were all like Narissa). It's the basic equivalent of trying to solve the murder of one person by setting off a nuke that kills hundreds of thousands in the process. Another failure of this internal consistency for me was that first we see Romulans on Earth being essentially reduced to house servants and unwanted refugees, then we the result of segregation and botched relocation efforts with the poor Romulan community on that planet, but by the end of the show we have what looks like the Romulan Star Empire in all of its former shining glory, with 218 brand new Warbirds that you can practically still smell that new car scent on them. How many thousands of Romulans could those ships have saved? If the Romulans had those kind of resources at their beck and call, why was Federation help so desperately needed then? Either that, or the Zhat Vash are so completely driven and totally insane that they would rather allow millions of their own people to die just so they could stop the Synth Overlords, and yet they could have saved them had they but waited a few... weeks? Huh?
This Space for Rent

Re: Picard returns!

87
I also thought about the timing of the attack on Mars, and the best I could come up with was that the Zhat Vash are such zealots they didn't care they were condemning Romulus. Also, by scuttling the effort before it did its job, it makes the synths look that much more evil, to be wiped out at all costs. Finally, we don't know how many people actually died on Romulus. The Klingons or other major powers may have mounted an evacuation effort, plus whatever the Romulans were supposed to do themselves. I think at the end of the day, we only really know that Nero's wife and child died, LOL. Or perhaps not...maybe they got out but in the confusion surrounding the evacuation, he didn't receive word before he got sucked into Spock's black hole.

My bigger problem is with the timing in the Abrams movie. If Romulus' sun exploded, there wouldn't be any time for Spock to go to Vulcan and get the ship, then come back with the red matter. If our sun exploded, we'd have 8.3 minutes before the first light and other radiation hit us. No time for anything. Of course, saying it was Romulus' sun that died was a convenient retcon by the Picard series, but one which I heartily embraced. The Abrams movie left it vague, implying it was some other star that "threatened to destroy the galaxy." Hogwash.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

88
I suppose there's no real way around it except to accept that yes, the Zhat Vash really and cold-bloodedly justified the sacrifice of millions of their own people for the greater good. The only problem I have with that reasoning is that such a sacrifice of their own species doesn't necessarily line up with this "we're saving the galaxy so we'll do whatever it takes" mentality because they consistently show that they are just as nefarious, if not more, than the Tal-Shiar. I could never see the Tal-Shiar going that far, so yeah... perhaps the Zhat Vash are really a bunch of uncaring zealots?

As for the whole Romulus sun thing, I'm no expert in astrophysics, and I don't think we were ever given a semi techno-babble explanation of why it happened, but I always thought that though stars definitely have a finite life, that it could not only be estimated with some degree of accuracy, but also that with the advanced tech in the 24th century, that the star would begin to give off anomalous readings that every Romulan scientist would've picked up on long before reaching the critical point. Given that, it should have given them a decent window to begin self-evacuation and for other species to mount rescue efforts. With that in mind, I can see how Spock would have had sufficient time and warning to what he did in the movie. I really need to read Countdown again. However, the movie did play fast and loose with just about everything for convenience's sake, and given that Kirk could clearly see Vulcan being destroyed while on the surface of Delta Vega... well, you get my drift on how stupidly the writers handled even the most basic things in that movie.
This Space for Rent

Re: Picard returns!

89
The timing of the Romulan supernova. Yeah I meant the movie made it look like it blew up and then Spock starting making promises to the Romulan government. Not happening. Actually, not only by the late 24th century would science be able to determine the date of a pending supernova pretty well, the most essential question is, why would someone colonize planets in the system of a star that is of a type that goes supernova, and moreover is late in its lifespan? It would be like us planting colonies in the Betelgeuse system. Oh by the way, I’m not an astrophysicist either; it’s just a hobby. ;-)

Speaking of colonizing, in Narek’s campfire tale, did you catch that he said “before our ancestors first came to Vulcan”? So the Vulcan/Romulan race originated elsewhere?
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

90
Olorin wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:56 am The timing of the Romulan supernova. Yeah I meant the movie made it look like it blew up and then Spock starting making promises to the Romulan government. Not happening. Actually, not only by the late 24th century would science be able to determine the date of a pending supernova pretty well, the most essential question is, why would someone colonize planets in the system of a star that is of a type that goes supernova, and moreover is late in its lifespan? It would be like us planting colonies in the Betelgeuse system. Oh by the way, I’m not an astrophysicist either; it’s just a hobby. ;-)

Speaking of colonizing, in Narek’s campfire tale, did you catch that he said “before our ancestors first came to Vulcan”? So the Vulcan/Romulan race originated elsewhere?
Yeah, not sure that they could time it to the precise day or even year, but certainly to within a century or so, which would be more than enough to realize that settling in that given system would be a really bad idea down the road. About all I can think of is that something else went wrong with that star that wasn't exactly part of a natural process, and thus the Romulans were caught off guard.

On the Narek comment, yes, I totally did catch that and my eyebrows went up higher than Spock's on any given day. I wonder what they are hinting at, or if it was a slip of someone on the writing team not paying attention? I don't recall it being mentioned anywhere else that their species were not from Vulcan originally, but then I remembered the Mintakans from TNG as being proto-Vulcans, so maybe there's something to what Narek said after all?
This Space for Rent

Re: Picard returns!

91
I saw a link on YouTube the other day, called "Why Star Trek: Picard Failed." I didn't actually watch it. so I don't know what the person had to say and I guess technically I shouldn't complaint about it. However, I will.

Not having watched it, I don't know their beef and by what standards they found the show wanting. I mean, it was not perfect, as we all agreed, but what thing is perfect? It's very easy to gloss over the failings of past shows and movies in the rosy light of nostalgia; even Nemesis takes on a certain patina of charm. All this causes us to set unrealistically high standards when we hear that Picard is returning with a new crew and a new mission. But I think we all acknowledged up front that we knew our expectations were too high, and I think we all tempered our criticisms after the fact with appreciation for what the show got right and the contentment that comes from spending time with an old friend. But I guess that's not enough for some people, and anyone with an opinion and a YouTube account can blare it out to the world.

I don't know what I'm looking for in posting about this. It's an uncertain world right now, and the fabric of life is very different from what it was a few weeks ago. Against that backdrop, I guess I thought people could just be happy to see Picard back in action. But I guess not.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

92
I just got done reading the Star Trek Picard tie in novel. I REALLY enjoyed it, gave a lot of good backstory to the actual Romulan system evacuation efforts and the ship building on Mars, a lot of the political drama as well. Also dove deeper into the development of Picard and Raffi's working relationship, I know this book was set years before the show Picard, and the Picard timeline matches Patrick Stewarts current age, but dang, this book would have been a great season 1.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Picard returns!

93
BladeCollector wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 4:14 am I just got done reading the Star Trek Picard tie in novel. I REALLY enjoyed it, gave a lot of good backstory to the actual Romulan system evacuation efforts and the ship building on Mars, a lot of the political drama as well. Also dove deeper into the development of Picard and Raffi's working relationship, I know this book was set years before the show Picard, and the Picard timeline matches Patrick Stewarts current age, but dang, this book would have been a great season 1.
I thought this wasn't due out till July? You're talking about the graphic novel/comic compilation, right?
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

94
Olorin wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 11:06 am
BladeCollector wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 4:14 am I just got done reading the Star Trek Picard tie in novel. I REALLY enjoyed it, gave a lot of good backstory to the actual Romulan system evacuation efforts and the ship building on Mars, a lot of the political drama as well. Also dove deeper into the development of Picard and Raffi's working relationship, I know this book was set years before the show Picard, and the Picard timeline matches Patrick Stewarts current age, but dang, this book would have been a great season 1.
I thought this wasn't due out till July? You're talking about the graphic novel/comic compilation, right?
It's called Star Trek Picard: the last best hope

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 8821549588
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Picard returns!

98
Seriously? They're well and truly out of original ideas with Star Trek nowadays.

At worst, I hope she's just a recurring memory/nightmare in Picard's psyche leftover from his ordeal as Locutus. More likely, she will be diluted even further than Voyager already did, and become the cartoonish, recurring villain of the season who tries to bring Seven back into the fold.

Yawn.
This Space for Rent

Re: Picard returns!

99
Remember, the main villain of this season, and possibly of the next season also, is Q. Rumor has it that people are going to be thrust into alternative timelines, so there’s no telling what may happen and what role of the Borg may play.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

100
Season 2 of Picard was definitely not without its problems but seeing Q back and the interactions between him and Picard were, to me, always a highlight in TNG and their interactions didn't disappoint (well, for me at least).

Picard the series is wrapping up after Season 3, with what seems to be a TNG reunion season.

One thing that really is hard about this series is the reminder of time passing, the frailty in Patrick Stewart's voice, compared to 30 years ago is a reminder that time is never on our side.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Post Reply

Return to “Star Trek & Star Wars”