Re: Grima poisoned Theodred, killing him

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I'm going to play devil's advocate and say that, yes... though we all know that claim is based upon a movie fabrication, Weta is selling collectibles based on the movies, not the books. While the movies are adaptations of the books, this is an important distinction.

My point is, that description is accurate insofar as the movies are concerned because that's how it happened in those movies, and that collectible is a representation of a part of those movies, not the books as written.

If they didn't follow this internal logic, there would be no description possible for items such as their Arwen and Frodo on Asfaloth at the Ford statue. This was a movie fabrication, but they still made a statue of it because at the end of the day, these are movie, not book collectibles. Either that or they make the even more absurd claim that Glorfindel's skin just looked really good that day.

I'm not defending Weta; I really dislike a fair bit of the changes PJ made, but I get why Theodred's Helm is advertised the way it is.

Now comes the part where you tell me to shut up. :embarasse
This Space for Rent

Re: Grima poisoned Theodred, killing him

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Valkrist wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:47 pm ...Now comes the part where you tell me to shut up. :embarasse
No, now comes the part where I say: Huh???!!!! The movie has Grima poisoning Theodred???
How do figure that? I've watched the extended version at least a dozen times and I've never picked that up.
So before I really appear clueless about this (I mean, any more than I already do) , please point and push me to the scene/dialog where this is indicated.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: Grima poisoned Theodred, killing him

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Deimos wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:46 pm No, now comes the part where I say: Huh???!!!! The movie has Grima poisoning Theodred???
How do figure that? I've watched the extended version at least a dozen times and I've never picked that up.
So before I really appear clueless about this (I mean, any more than I already do) , please point and push me to the scene/dialog where this is indicated.
Clueless is the last thing I would ever accuse you of being.

No, there is no scene showing Grima poisoning Theodred, nor is there dialogue referencing such a thing. It's merely an inference that you can work backwards to in the way that Grima's character is established and everything we learn about him moving forward.

It's basically a fabrication within a fabrication. You have to admit it's certainly possible, if not likely, given what we see of Grima. As for Weta, it is headed by Richard Taylor and employs dozens of people that worked directly on the movies so who's to say they didn't have access to material that didn't make the final cut in the movie, such as an actual passage in the script that confirms this?

To give an example of how far their license reaches, they released a Gondor helm for sale that is never seen in the movies, but was designed as part of concept art. My point is they can and will use and say things that we didn't see onscreen because their merchandising license permits them to. That's the only justification I can see for that writeup and why it doesn't bother me in the least. The movie already messed up that part, so how does this make it any worse when it's actually a plausible claim?

Going back to your initial comment, has PJ infected Weta? Oh yes, he most certainly has, but whether you can or can't rationalize the claim that Grima poisoned Theodred, I'm merely showing how that that conclusion could be reached and made by them, even if you or I never saw such a thing happen.

Now you can tell me to shut up without fearing you're missing something. I'm just being more forgiving about this because I've long accepted that these movies happen in an alternate Middle-earth, not the one we know and love from the books. If they want to make more stuff up, who cares? ;)
This Space for Rent

Re: Grima poisoned Theodred, killing him

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The only conclusion I come up with that Grima had anything to do with Theodred's death is when he walks in and says "He must have died sometime in the night" and the look on his face while giving a fake condolence. As Brad Dourif played him so well and creepy you get a sense you really can't believe anything that comes from his mouth as truth.

Re: Grima poisoned Theodred, killing him

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N2darkness wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:49 am The only conclusion I come up with that Grima had anything to do with Theodred's death is when he walks in and says "He must have died sometime in the night" and the look on his face while giving a fake condolence. As Brad Dourif played him so well and creepy you get a sense you really can't believe anything that comes from his mouth as truth.
That's definitely the point at which one can make that plausible leap.

Given his long-advanced perfidy in working for Saruman to undermine the House of Théoden, and with the king already firmly under his control, it's not altogether unbelievable that Grima would seize the opportunity to remove the heir apparent (just in case there was a chance he'd recover from his wounds), and further isolate Eowyn, his true prize. Of course, this is all conjecture, but again I argue that it is plausible, and the Weta guys just ran with their (unknown to us) made-up facts.

Stay tuned for the all the answers on the next episode of CSI: Edoras. :crazy:
This Space for Rent

Re: Grima poisoned Theodred, killing him

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Valkrist wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:13 am Clueless is the last thing I would ever accuse you of being.
HA! You don't know about my clueless-itiousness! Really. I often miss some of the most obvious things in life. (Sometimes that's a blessing, tho'...)
Anyway thank you for the compliment.


No, there is no scene showing Grima poisoning Theodred, nor is there dialogue referencing such a thing. It's merely an inference that you can work backwards to in the way that Grima's character is established and everything we learn about him moving forward..... As for Weta, it is headed by Richard Taylor and employs dozens of people that worked directly on the movies so who's to say they didn't have access to material that didn't make the final cut in the movie, such as an actual passage in the script that confirms this?
That I will readily admit; i.e., that there was an explicit scene showing the poisoning that ended up on the cutting room floor.
Given the helm ad copy I would say that is exactly what happened.
I will also say that it was a very good thing it was cut. Had it been left in it would have been another one of those audible groan inducing moments.


Now you can tell me to shut up without fearing you're missing something.
Why, Val! Perish the thought! I would never tell you to shut up.
(I would just privately :rolleye:........just kidding!! ;) )


I'm just being more forgiving about this because I've long accepted that these movies happen in an alternate Middle-earth, not the one we know and love from the books. If they want to make more stuff up, who cares? ;)[/quote]
I guess what makes me sigh/groan at these PJ accretions/abortions is that they are so obviously of two kinds:
1) the PC additions such as making Arwen the "warrior princess" (hello, Middle Earth to PJ...we already have a warrior princess. Her name is Eowyn.)
And then the attempt to have her "stand by her man" at Helms Deep
2) The insertion of scenes to make the story more "blockbuster worthy". That would be the poisoning scene, having Aragorn face-off with Sauron at the Morannon, the "cliff-hanger" at the Crack of Doom. There are others, as you well know.
Last edited by Deimos on Mon Apr 20, 2020 12:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: Grima poisoned Theodred, killing him

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N2darkness wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:49 am The only conclusion I come up with that Grima had anything to do with Theodred's death is when he walks in and says "He must have died sometime in the night" and the look on his face while giving a fake condolence. As Brad Dourif played him so well and creepy you get a sense you really can't believe anything that comes from his mouth as truth.
Yes, I can see where that scene would fit perfectly in what was likely cut footage.
Yep, Brad Dourif did "creepy" very, very convincingly in his portrayal of Grima.

Did you ever notice that Grima has no eyebrows?
Shaving them off added to his creepiness.

Dourif hated having that done, said his wife hated too. He mentions it in an interview.
Months after completing his scenes he got called back for a re-shoot of one scene, so he had to shave off his eyebrows again. He wasn't too happy about that.
You know how long it takes eyebrows to grow in? A long, long time. And they look all stubble-y until they are fully grown in.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: Grima poisoned Theodred, killing him

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I had no idea what you were referring to, so I googled "Whoopie Goldberg eyebrows".
So I guess she and Grima visit the same salon.... :rolleye:

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

Re: Grima poisoned Theodred, killing him

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I take it that how she came to (not) wear them that way is that one time she shaved them off, and when they started to grow back in, they itched, so she keeps shaving them off. Now it's her look.

As someone who's grown and shaved many beards, I can say it does itch a little when it gets to a certain phase, but that passes quickly and would never deter me from developing my winter splendor.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
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