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So I am a bit more than halfway through my re-read of the 7-book Foundation series. Last night I finished Foundation's Edge, the first sequel to the original trilogy. It strongly reinforced my perception of the sequels and prequels being better than the original books. About the first book and a half of the original trilogy are a real slog to get through, not only because they are dated and there is essentially no character development (other than how somebody puffs a cigar), but also because Asimov simply wasn't as good a writer then. Contrast that with Foundation's Edge, which to me is a real page-turner. It's one that given enough time (ie, not restricted to about an hour in the evening), I could read cover to cover. And it's much thicker than any of the earlier books (though some of that is due to larger print). There is character development (even if sometimes stereotypical, e.g, the old professor constantly calling his companion "dear chap" and so forth), and in spite of the book still being 99% people talking, it moves along.

That said, I was surprised by one thing rereading Foundation's Edge this time: the rather sexist treatment of the female characters. The female speaker from the Second Foundation and the Mayor of Terminus are presented essentially as villains, and Bliss, the native of Gaia introduced near the end, is presented to be viewed as a sex object by the male characters. The old professor is clearly smitten by her, though ironically, she is essentially a topic of derision for his Lothario companion. This guy derides her for being female and young. At the end, he explains why he reacts to her that way instead of bedding her (let's just say he thinks she isn't human), but it doesn't erase the impression of rudeness from his earlier behavior. I suppose this is probably about the fourth time I've read Foundation's Edge, but I don't recall ever picking up on that before. I don't recall that this behavior continues in Foundation and Earth (which I hope to begin again tonight), so it can be shrugged off and doesn't, at least for me, detract from the overall enjoyment of the novel.

I wonder how the TV series will handle the later books. I hope they don't constantly have clone emperors popping up in the midst of the story. That would be a detour from the author's story worse than Elves showing up at Helm's Deep.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I am wondering how Trantor will be depicted visually in the Apple show. The second trailer showed a couple of shots that are presumably it, but which just looked like a big city, not even necessarily that futuristic. Asimov's description of it in the books is a bit vague early on: planet-encircling city, soaring towers to exchange heat with the atmosphere. In the later books, Trantor is no longer a major player and is "off-screen." The prequels return to Trantor and in Prelude to Foundation, Asimov descries the planet in fair detail. Though it is still one enormous city, it is clear that it was separate cities that grew together, and each is covered by a dome, such that the surface appears as a vast collection of domes. Moreover, windblown soil has partially covered the domes, such that the valleys between them support limited plant life, even trees in some instances. This is, I'd say, definitely at variance with even the vague descriptions from the early books.

I don't suppose it matters, because the show will make it look like whatever they think it should look like. But it seems to me that since Asimov went to some pains to describe it, they should at least somewhat follow that, especially as it would help prevent comparisons to that other Imperial planet totally inspired by Trantor: Coruscant.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Honestly, I think the skeleton of Asimov's story is very evident in the trailers. It's just that they have hung considerable meat on those bones that may not look like what old-time Asimov readers are expecting. They have definitely made some changes, like the clone emperors, but some of what you're seeing that doesn't look familiar may be because I think they are incorporating elements of the prequels, or at least of the second prequel, Forward the Foundation, into the story. For example, the young black man whom Hari embraces is, I am pretty sure, supposed to be Raych, his adopted son from the prequels. Also, IIRC in the second prequel there is considerable unrest on Trantor leading up the the departure of the group going to settle Terminus. I think they are also following the school of trailer production that says, put a lot of big flashy things on screen to draw in the Great Unwashed, and count on the Faithful to show up anyway.

I also saw a video where David Goyer talks more about the production over scenes from the new trailer. He does admit that they have not stuck absolutely strictly to the books but one of their goals was to make the story more intimate and emotional, which let's face it, the earlier books were not. He also said they very much wanted to steer away from the look and feel of the main pillars of sci fi movies that most people are familiar with, which are primarily Star Wars and Star Trek, with maybe a smidgen of Alien worked in. He said they challenged their visual artists to come up with a fresh look. That's an area where, at least basted on the trailers, I think they have succeeded in spades, however good or bad the show ends up being. Some of these planetary scenes in the trailers look like science fiction made incarnate, or at least my perception of it. Example, the ringed planet, which is the homeworld of Gaal Dornick. Stunning. He also said they shot on real locations, and for effects with miniatures instead of CGI, as much as possible, to make it feel real. As an adaptation, it may end up bleh, but it's going to look epic, IMHO.

All that said, we were never going to get a 100% faithful, literal adaptation of the Foundation books. I think if we have the mindset that this is a fantasia on Foundation, in the musical sense of improvising on a melody, and stay open to it, we will be entertained. He didn't say this in so many words, but I caught a strong echo of Peter Jackson from 20 years ago, saying that job #1 was to tell a good story and job #2 was fidelity. Most of us were reasonably pleased by the results of that approach to LOTR, and I am certainly willing to give Foundation a chance. If nothing else, remember that at one point not that may years ago, ROLAND EMMERICH was going to be making Foundation, and ponder how good a movie that would have been. I imagine it would have been along the lines of the dismal Starship Troopers movie, at best.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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https://youtu.be/gp7i4IA1niM

Tbis you tuber is basically saying a lot of the things that I was trying to convey. When all is said a d done, I think each person that has read the books and then watches the series is going to have to decide for themselves whether it deserves the name Foundation. I’m also thinking about a friend of mine who says about the Last Jedi, that it was a good movie, but maybe just not a good Star Wars movie.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Olorin wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:34 am https://youtu.be/gp7i4IA1niM

Tbis you tuber is basically saying a lot of the things that I was trying to convey. When all is said a d done, I think each person that has read the books and then watches the series is going to have to decide for themselves whether it deserves the name Foundation. I’m also thinking about a friend of mine who says about the Last Jedi, that it was a good movie, but maybe just not a good Star Wars movie.
Which is pretty much along the lines of "a movie loosely based on the Foundation stories and characters created by Isaac Asimov."


"Unless you're prepared to surrender everything, don't surrender anything."

When seconds matter, it's reassuring to know that the police are only minutes away.

"Only the paranoid survive."

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The first two episodes are now available. I have not watched yet; I'm waiting to get the shipping notice for my new iPhone, which should also include a link for a free year of Apple TV+. But I have skimmed a few reviews, in both video and written form, so if you don't want spoilers even of the "is this good, bad, or indifferent" variety, stop reading now.

The two strongest impressions I've gotten are that 1) if you want absolute faithfulness to Asimov, you'll be disappointed, but we knew going in they were not going to stick strictly to the books, for all the previously discussed reason, and 2) if you have not read the books and are not good at keeping up with time jumps, you'll be confused. Not only does every show want to be the next Game of Thrones, but this one apparently wants to be Westworld. That is a show I really enjoy, but it has a lot of time jumps in it, and in the first season they were so subtle I didn't realize they were there. It wasn't until the end, when it was revealed the old guy and the young guy were the same person, that I realized that it was two time periods running concurrently. Anyway, Foundation jumps around quite a bit apparently.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I’ve seen both episodes multiple times and I’m very much in the camp of loving it. It’s a brilliantly cast show, Lee Pace is incredible in his role - he has been likened to Joaquin Phoenix in Gladiator - I love Jared Harris as Harri Seldon and I love Lou Llobel as Gaal Dornick.

Costumes and production design are incredible - this may top Star Wars for me. Actually, it has topped Star Wars. It’s far more beautiful, visually speaking.

Having read about half of the first book I recognise the major events but there’s definitely a lot of embellishment. A word for word adaption of Foundation just wouldn’t have worked. As long as the ideas translate I think it has potential. Critical reception is a little mixed but still fairly positive and from what I’ve heard it’s already been given a second season. Oh and also the opening title sequence is very beautiful. I can’t wait for the rest of the episodes.

I didn’t realise that the Foundation saga quietly tied in with I,robot though- which I also didn’t realise was an Asimov story. For those who have read it, how different is the I,robot movie to the book?
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Lindir, putting the Foundation series per se aside for the moment, I must say, you ought to consider writing movie reviews as a career.
I don't know if you still do photography, but if you do, think about doing the reviews as a side gig.
You really are very good at comprehensive analysis of movies/dramatizations.


"Unless you're prepared to surrender everything, don't surrender anything."

When seconds matter, it's reassuring to know that the police are only minutes away.

"Only the paranoid survive."

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I, Robot, the Isaac Asimov novel, is really just a collection of short stories originally published separately, much like Foundation in that regard, but with a framing device added later to weave them together for publication in one volume. The movie, on the other hand, utilizes none of those stories but take some of the characters and the basic ideas that Asimov used in his various robot stories to make an original story for the movie. As there was no chance Hollywood was ever going to green light a movie based literally on the book, where it’s a bunch of separate stories strung loosely together, I thought that what they came up with for the movie was very good. I really enjoyed it. So again, if somebody’s demanding absolute fidelity to Asimov, they wouldn’t like the movie, but if they could accept a story using the ideas, and set aside their preconceptions, they should enjoy it.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Thanks Deimos, but tbh I’ve never really considered it. Writing is not something I feel I’m particularly good at and always worry people think what I write is an incoherent mess haha

Though I’m glad you enjoyed my short review of Foundation. I’m sure I’ll add to it as the season continues. I feel very invested in this show already and there’s a lot to digest and also a lot to appreciate about it straight from the outset.

I’m interested in hearing what you both think when you both get round to it, it’ll be interesting to compare my thoughts with people who have read the entire series and know where things are going. Like I said, I only read the first half of the first book so I have little to go haha
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Lindir wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:11 am ...

I’m interested in hearing what you both think when you both get round to it, it’ll be interesting to compare my thoughts with people who have read the entire series and know where things are going. Like I said, I only read the first half of the first book so I have little to go haha
Uhhh... Lindir, don't hold your breath. I will never watch the series for 2 reasons: 1) I don't get streamed stuff (by choice). Zip. Nada. None.

2)Even if I did I still wouldn't watch it. Far too many reviews have voiced the same objections to it that I have stated: to wit, it isn't Asimov's Foundation stories. It's a series that has the same name and some characters that loosely resemble the characters in the stories.
I can't justify taking the time to watch it, not at my age. :rolleye: I probably have less than 20 good years left (more likely 15) and I don't want to spend a minute of them watching something I know I will dislike.

Sorry to disappoint your hope of hearing from someone who has read the stories.
But Olorin can provide that perspective, as can Kit. Can't recall who else on the forum has read the stories ... Val maybe.


"Unless you're prepared to surrender everything, don't surrender anything."

When seconds matter, it's reassuring to know that the police are only minutes away.

"Only the paranoid survive."

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I will be watching it, despite whatever concerns I may have, but I have to wait until the new phone arrives (in about a week) to get the free subscription link. However, if you want to check out what some YouTubers think, there are two that have read the books and (thus far) seem thoughtful and level-headed to me. They are Quinn's Ideas and Foundation Era. Quinn is mainly a Dune guy (and is beside himself with anticipation for that), while Foundation Era (Luigi) is mainly about...well, the channel name says it. They've both posted reviews of the first few episodes. I only skimmed them, as I was worried about them being spoilery, so I don't remember if they are spoilery. So be warned.

More later. In the meantime, breakfast and then work....
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Since I haven't watched it yet, I am not yet in a position to say it isn't Foundation, or it is Foundation, but it raises a question, or questions. Is there a certain level of fidelity to the source that is necessary for an adaptation to "be" what it bears the name of? And what is that level?

Ian McKellen said, prior to the debut of FOTR, that PJ's LOTR movies were perhaps the most faithful adaptation ever made of a long work. Setting aside our sometimes-raison-d'etre of cataloging PJ's trilogy's digressions from the source, most of us would agree that it was very faithful in macro-scale and reasonable faithful at a finer scale. Yet it was "not" LOTR for me. As much as I loved it, it exists in a different place from the books. Only the book, as I see it in my minds' eye as I read it, "is" LOTR, for me. I have absolutely no doubt that the same will be true of Foundation, and for that matter, Dune. My requirements for success, defined in terms of my personal liking of it, are that it not disrespect the source by negating or upending essential facets of the source for frivolous or inscrutable reasons. I did skim the Quinn's Ideas video review of the first two episodes and while he said it greatly expanded upon the story, it did not disrespect it. Of course, 2 episodes into a planned 80-episode adaptation is a tiny bit too early to make a final judgment, but I think for me that approach is good. It can be more than Foundation as long as it does not make choices that make it less than Foundation.

I'll also probably look at it in terms of how it compares to other Asimov adaptations, which admittedly is setting the bar pretty low. The I, Robot adaptation bore no resemblance to the book in that it was not an adaptation of it, but rather used robots, Asimov concepts, and a few Asimov characters to tell an original story. Because I knew going into it that it was going to do this, I judged it on its own terms and really liked it. At the other end of the scale was the dreaded 1988 adaptation of "Nightfall," one of Asimov's best-known short stories. It was not good, oh no Precious, not good at all. Asimov didn't even know they did it until after it was out. He'd sold the rights long ago and the producers never told him they were doing it. Friends of his told him to be glad he never saw it. Those were good friends. Anyway, my expectations for Foundation are that it will be incredibly better than Nightfall by any measure, and much more faithful than I, Robot in that it will include the basic story, no matter how much it expands upon it. My biggest concern, honestly, is that their Tarantino (non-linear) approach to story telling will make it too confusing for many people to follow, perhaps even their own screen-writers. They've said that some things are being set up in the first season that won't be paid off till later seasons (hence review comments about plot points that went nowhere) and that some story arcs will run concurrently. I hope they don't consider themselves so clever as to think they can improve upon Asimov by paralleling the Mule's search for the Second Foundation with Golan Trevise's search for Earth, for example. (BTW, I don't consider those references to be spoilers...they are implicit or explicit in book or chapter titles.)
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Season 2 is official now! https://www.apple.com/tv-pr/news/2021/1 ... nd-season/

I find that it gets better and better with each episode, I’m really enjoying it. The wait between episodes is agonising though.


Olorin, in the four episodes so far there’s been a little timeline jumping here and there but it’s not confusing to me, and it’s no where near as non linear as something like Westworld is.

Also, haven’t read the books, but I am aware of The Mule. Slight spoiler - he’s mentioned in the introduction of the first episode. I know that he’s a villain but nothing much beyond that so tbh I’m excited to see who he is and how he factors in to the story later on.

Have to say, production and weaponry design feels on par with Weta’s work on LOTR. Sometimes you find fantasy or sci-fi movies that have whacky looking weapons that you can tell have been designed to look cool, but end up looking ugly or generic, but in LOTR and in The Hobbit, Weta managed to design weapons that felt real and beautiful and made “sense”. It’s hard to fully articulate what I mean.

But I feel like Foundation is doing that too. The firearm design, while being sci-fi inspired, feel real, the clothing, the armour, the worlds. It feels like everything just makes sense, there’s beauty and there’s ugliness but it all adds to the overall realistic feeling of the universe they’ve created. It feels very cohesive.

I can feel the passion oozing from every pixel on screen, and I stand by my statement that the cast are incredible. I really love Salvor Hardin.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Lindir, I’m really glad that you’re enjoying it, and I’m looking forward to starting it soon myself. I received my new iPhone yesterday and so my link for my free subscription to Apple TV+ is now available. I think I will probably start watching tonight. I’m always torn when there’s a streaming series available, whether to watch each episode each week, or wait until it has all played and then binge at all at once. I guess I’m going to split that baby in two with Foundation, and be able to binge not quite the first half of the series, and then just wait for the rest of it to play out over the next month.

I also saw that it’s already been renewed for a second season, which pleases me. It would’ve been disappointing that they invested so much in putting together a first season, only to have it go no farther than that. Also, now that they know they’re going to be having a second season, they can make any course corrections necessary based on viewer or critic reactions to the first season, if they’re humble enough to do that. I think that a good showrunner will be able to figure out what needs to be changed based on reaction, versus staying the course. I think Peter Jackson showed a pretty deft hand in revising the Lord of the rings as he was making it, based on fan feedback to rumors that were getting out.

Regarding the Mule, I am most intrigued to see who they end up casting to play him. Based on how he’s described in the books, the absolute perfect actor to play him would be Doug Jones, who plays Saru on Star Trek discovery and who has played various creatures for Guillermo Del Toro. In addition to being a really great actor, his physicality is nearly a precise match for the description in the books. All they need to do is give him a bigger nose, and that’s a very easy make up job. Unfortunately, I think that he will be too tied up with star trek to be on Foundation. And who knows, maybe they have somebody in mind that will be just as good. But when I reread Foundation recently and was poring over the description of the guy, it occurred to me, hey, thats Doug Jones, and I’ve been incapable of thinking of anyone else to play that part since then.

Without giving away anything about the character, the Mule is a very pivotal character in the story of Foundation. He’s the focus of the second half of the second book and the first half of the third book. In the latter, he’s not really on screen all that much, so to speak, but he’s still the whole focus of the story, and in the later books, the characters still look back to the time of the Mule and what he meant for the development of the Foundation and the Second Empire. Since the show is changing the character of Gaal Dornick a bit having her being an ongoing character as opposed to just a one off appearing in only one chapter, and using her as a narrative device, looking back on the whole history of it all, it’s very appropriate that she would mention the Mule. And very exciting for fans of the books to hear that name, too!
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Oh, about the weapons. I don’t think anywhere in the books does it describe what the weapons look like. In fact, in the books, it rarely describes what anything looks like. However, the way the blasters function, as described in one of the sequels, I think they have gotten that exactly right for the show. There’s a clip on YouTube of the emperor talking to the old guy who maintains the mural in the palace, and he ends up being executed. The way the weapon works on him is exactly as described in one of the later sequels when somebody shoots a wild dog with that type of weapon.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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So last night I fired up my 3-month free subscription and watched the first four episodes of Foundation.

Regarding the first episode, wow. Despite all the embellishments, all the gender swaps, and so forth, the episode managed to hit all the main story beats of The Psychohistorians, the first section of the first book. Everybody has seen the trailers, so I don't need to tell you how spectacular this show looks. So I was very impressed by the first episode and felt that the show was going to be a relatively faithful reimagining of Foundation despite itself. Then the second episode did something that ran off the rails so badly that it makes you wonder, did the screenwriters never read the books, or did they just decide to use them for toilet paper? And yet, so many other factoids are peppered into the show (the age of the Empire, or the crappy job of working in the heat sinks of Trantor, for example) that it's clear that they did read the books. I suspect that this event was a red herring. At least I hope it was! After that, the story moves back more toward its expected, if embellished, course, seemingly immediately forgetting about what it just did. But this major divergence really pulled me out of the story and made the following episodes feel more like an alternate universe version of Foundation than they otherwise would have. Now I'm wondering if it's going to take the rest of the season to address my question...or if it ever does.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I have my theories on what is going on there. It’s my least favourite episode of the episodes aired so far. Aside from the events on Trantor, it feels like mostly filler. If you’ve seen episode 4 there’s a tiny tease at the end and I’d expect that in episode 5 we may get some sort of explanation or maybe episode 6.

All I can say, because I don’t want to be so off base with my theory that I seem like an idiot or potentially spoil it for anyone who intends to watch it but who hasn’t done so yet, is that there’s a little bts feature they did and there are more scenes with that particular character in that we haven’t seen yet.

David S Goyer did say he had found a way to keep several characters present throughout the whole story.

Aside from that Olorin, how’re you finding the rest? I get the feeling that that particular plot has thrown your perception of the series a bit but hopefully you’ll be able to enjoy the rest :)
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Yes, that has thrown me for a loop but I'm reasonably confident there's a method to their madness. I have theories, but for the same reasons as yours, I won't divulge them.

Other than that, I am enjoying it a great deal. Anytime they throw in some obscure fact from the books (like the age of the Empire, as mentioned before), they score points with me, as it shows they've read the material. The purist in me chafes a bit at some of the changes, like the genetic dynasty. Cleon I was considered by Foundation historians to be the last strong, and good, emperor. I guess if you're going to clone someone for a genetic dynasty, he'd be the one. But he did not live 400 years before the time of Seldon. He was emperor when Seldon first arrived on Trantor. But I can see the attraction of going with the character and backdating him to establish his record of peace. At the same time, he was generally not brutal, but again, at the time of the events of the first episode (and for a number of years prior), Cleon was no longer around. After his rule, there was a succession of other ruling bodies that were somewhat ruthless. So in that sense, the genetic dynasty, though cloned from Cleon, is standing in for the authoritarians where were in charge at this time in the books. So, it works.

I was very surprised that only two episodes in, they revealed the true nature of one of the characters, and not only that, that it was not a secret. In Prelude to Foundation, this was part of a big 1-2 reveal at the end of the book. But at least this erases my fear that the show was going to skip or change that part of the character's story. But it does make me wonder if they are going to tell any of the story of the prequels, other than just incorporating characters and factoids. Actually in the second episode when they delved into Raych's backstory, I thought we were going to get a flashback to the prequels. But what the presented in the show was very different from the book.

Which reminds me, apparently the show has been so vague on Raych and Hari's relationship that some reviewers are referring to them as best friends. In the book, Hari is Ray's adoptive father. But from all you can tell from the show, they might be lovers.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I wasn’t aware people thought Raych and Hari were lovers. Their relationship on screen felt paternal to me, and also it would have been more disturbing considering Hari talks about meeting him as a young boy. It’s all cleared up now in the most current episode at least.

I do feel like it gets better and better each week. I’m sad that we’re halfway through now though but also wish to see the rest of the season ASAP.

On The Mule, David S Goyer has stated he wants the show to earn The Mule and so he won’t appear in this first season. I wonder if he may appear in the latter part of season 2? Or maybe we’ll have to wait for season 3. Doug Jones is a great character actor and I’d love him to be in it.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Clarifying, I am not actual aware of anyone thinking that Hari and Raych were lovers. I was just making the point that thus far the show had presented so little on the nature of their relationship, other than that they were close, that one could be forgiven for jumping to conclusions. And yeah, it might be a little squicky to raise someone and then take them as a lover, but it happens.

As to the Mule, I would think/hope he would not show up before late second season at the earliest. It's hard to say, though. When I heard they were planning 80 episodes, I was assuming 11-12 episodes per book, or whatever the math works out to. However, one review I had read from someone who has seen the entire season said that their sense of it was that the first season covered only about 20% of the first book of the OT, Foundation. If that were the case and held true across the series, it would take them 5 seasons just to cover the first book and 2.5 more beyond that to get to the Mule. Considering those early books were slim affairs, that would be a whole lot of unwarranted story invention and a whole lot of the 1980s/1990s books not gotten to, which would be most unfortunate. I do find it interesting, incidentally, that you are apparently quite intrigued by the Mule without knowing anything about him. It will be interesting to see what you make of the character once his story has been presented.

I've been very pleased with the performances. I knew that Jared Harris and Lee Pace would totally bring it, but the other cast have been great, too, especially Lou Llobel and Leah Harvey. Doug Jones would certainly be a worthy addition but I doubt they can get him. Nonetheless, based on the quality of the people they've gotten so far, I have no doubt that whoever portrays the Mule will do him justice. And if he's an unknown, that allows him to disappear into the role all that much more. If it were Doug Jones, I would continually be aware of him as Doug Jones, since his role on Discovery has made such an impression on me.

Finally, a day or two ago, I was thinking, is Friday ever going to get here? Normally, I think that because I am ready for the weekend, but now it's because I want to see the next episode of Foundation. Normally I'd be mowing the lawn right after work on Friday but today it's raining. So instead, I'm going to take a nice soak in a tub of hot water (we've had a wet, chilly week), then through together some supper, and then collapse onto the couch and watch it.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Ran across this today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7QSS2YgXBs

A little spoilerish if you're not familiar with the books, but interesting. The Estate was very clear on rights: all the Foundation books but none of the Robot books or Galactic Empire books, so that may cause changes in characters, or at least one particular character. But at the same time, they do have rights to the Laws of Robotics.

But most notably (and I suspected this, when they kept talking about the 1000 year interregnum, when Asimov only covered half of it), if they get to do all planned 80 episodes, they are going to continue past Foundation and Earth. This is to be based on Asimov's notes, provided by the Estate. So, jaw-drop there. It makes me think of all the Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson sequels and prequels to Frank Herbert's Dune books. Some fans like them, others not. Despite the quick renewal for a second season, it seems like a long shot that they will make all 80 episodes. But I'm very intrigued by the idea that Asimov had plans for where he wanted the next sequel to go, but set them aside to work on the prequels.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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That’s great, I’m gonna have a read/watch after work. I’m hoping they do get to complete the entire story tbh, fan reception seems to be positive - critical reception is still a bit mixed tbf, but I’m hoping it can go all the way through.

I hope we can have season 2 next year though. Waiting 2 years for shows is a long time haha
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Earlier on in the process, whenever I kept reading the blurbs about the "1000-year chess game between Hari Seldon and the Empire," I wondered, would they have the nerve to continue the story past what Asimov wrote, and I thought, surely not. Yet, if they made it to the end of what he wrote and the show was still going, I guess they would. (Obviously, Game of Thrones comes to mind, but at least Martin was still alive to give the showrunners a detailed outline, and available to consult on questions.) And of course, the audience, especially any who had not read the books, would find it odd if the show ended without getting to the promised land.

Hearing now that they have notes from the Estate, I feel like they have some basis to continue. At least they won't be making it up out of whole cloth, and chances are, it would be a way of finding out how Asimov planned to end the series. I suppose the Estate could authorize other authors to write it, as they have done a few times before, and IIRC correctly Robert Jordan's estate actually authorized another author to complete the Wheel of Time series. That would be both intriguing and scary. I thought Mickey Zucker Reichert's I, Robot prequels were wonderful, but Brin/Bear/Benford's "Second Foundation Trilogy" was dreadful (not to mention totally unnecessary). In any event, if Goyer and Co. continue the story, it wouldn't necessarily be like they would be freelancing the story any more than they are now, even though they currently have actual books to adapt.

Earlier this year, I read something (or saw a video) that posited that Asimov felt he had written himself into a corner with Foundation and Earth, and couldn't figure out how to carry the series forward from there, and that was why he wrote the prequels. I guess that is somewhat true, based on what Goyer has said. But previously, I had interpreted it to mean that Asimov had absolutely no ideas, not just conflicting ideas. I was thinking, as one does in such cases, that it was too bad that he was no longer alive, as I could at least give him proposed titles, derived from seeds he had planted in the sequels, and his brilliant imagination could develop the story from the titles. And these titles were: "Foundation and Solaria," "Foundation and Galaxia," and "Foundation and Second Empire." But in the real world, where I don't correspond with famous authors (well, actually I have, and gotten some very nice emails from a few), Asimov was, quite regrettably, dead and unavailable to write any more books with or without suggestions from fans.

There was one thing concerning to me from the AMA pertaining to the continuation of the story, and I'm trying to figure out how to describe it without spoilers. Foundation's Edge & Foundation and Earth established another agency acting on behalf of humanity, with a very radical proposal for the future. A redditer asked Goyer if he was going to follow that course and he basically said maybe/maybe not. My first thought, if you don't follow it, you are invalidating two entire books, because that was the whole point of those books. But if Asimov was possible going to move the story back away from that direction, that'd be a different story, no pun intended. I guess in the end, we'll get whatever we get. And I will always wonder, how much of this came from Asimov and how much from Goyer's team. Again, this is rather like the Dune situation. Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson continued that series supposedly based on the elder Herbert's notes, but they've written around a dozen books. Sheesh, how many notes did old Herbert leave?
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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So I was wrong.

While critical reception is actually improving, audience consensus seems to be declining.

There’s a lot of complaints from book fans about changes to the story which honestly seem to make up the majority of the complaints, and of course the odd few “ruined by inclusivity!!!1!” comment.

I’m hoping the audience score will improve. I don’t really agree with a lot of comments about how The Foundation storyline is boring, or that the acting is bad. The acting is incredibly good and I love that they have cast a lot of previously unknown actors for the main roles.

I do feel out of touch with my fellow audience though. While they gush over anything Marvel and hold it up as some high art version of entertainment, I find myself shaking my head wondering why a movie where the villains are bad and the stories are often boring are so well received. So maybe I’m the problem?

I did really like episode 6. I realise Salvor is quite different to what she was like in the book - even without the gender swap - but tbh I’ve really liked the changes, I like that she’s unsure, that she struggles with this cult that is the Foundation, or that she cries when something bad happens to people she cares about. That’s human. Also the actress they cast looks incredible, she looks like a capable woman, so I totally buy into her being the young warden of Terminus.

So I read the books right up to the part where there was a threat of invasion I believe, if I remember correctly they were talking about power sources and upgrading before either of the neighbouring barbarian colonies could. That was the very first Salvor Hardin chapter I believe so for me all of this is new.

What do you make of episode 6 Olorin?
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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I am so sick of the comments I see knocking its inclusivity, denigrating it as "reflecting California values." I just want to scream, pull your heads out of your asses and look at the human race. We are mostly not white-skinned, blue-eyed Europeans. And it's laughable, the tightrope they try to walk between knocking the inclusivity without sounding racist. One wonders if these people realize that these books were written by a Jewish refugee from Russia!

And I'm just about equally sick of comments along the line of, this is not Foundation, for reasons I've expressed before. Goyer said upfront that he would be taking liberties. If peoplethey were requiring absolute fidelity, they were forewarned and should have stayed away. Gpyer describes it as a "remix" of Foundation, borrowing a very apt term from the music world. And thank God for that! Otherwise, it would have been My Dinner with Andre in Space. Two people sitting in a room talking. Any action taking place off-screen and just talked about. And the latest thing that irked me about someone saying it wasn't Foundation because they claimed this whole thing about the warship was made up. The hell it was! I just reread the whole series and one of the problems that the Foundation had with Anacreon was that they had found an abandoned Imperial warship and were demanding that Foundation engineers make it operable again. That's been the whole thrust of the Terminus storyline in the show thus far, though they are taking their sweet time getting to it.

One minor thing about the show that irks me. They keep talking about the Anacreons. Well, Anacreon is the planet and the demonym, at least as used in the book, is Anacreonian. Similarly, in the end credits of the episode I saw "running Terminite." The proper demonym is Terminian, though it is rarely used in the books. The books usually say Foundationers. In any event, let's not call our folks something that sounds like a wood-devouring insect.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I agree Olorin, it’s irksome. I just roll my eyes whenever I see comments like that.

That’s good to know about the destroyer. I had read that article that claimed the show had utterly betrayed Asimov’s story by introducing a sci-fi gimmick 🙄 I’ve seen it regurgitated on other review sites too.

Haha Terminite is funny. Tbh the Anachreon one doesn’t bother me so much as it still sounds decent and I think would be easier to say than Anachreonian. 100% agree Terminian is superior to Terminite though haha, hopefully they’ll change it.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Olorin wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:04 am ....One minor thing about the show that irks me. They keep talking about the Anacreons. Well, Anacreon is the planet and the demonym, at least as used in the book, is Anacreonian. Similarly, in the end credits of the episode I saw "running Terminite." The proper demonym is Terminian, though it is rarely used in the books. The books usually say Foundationers. In any event, let's not call our folks something that sounds like a wood-devouring insect.
Lindir wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:10 am ...Haha Terminite is funny. Tbh the Anachreon one doesn’t bother me so much as it still sounds decent and I think would be easier to say than Anachreonian. 100% agree Terminian is superior to Terminite though haha, hopefully they’ll change it.
You two and your "termites" remind me of the scene from Galaxy Quest when Jason is back on earth after his first experience commanding the Thermians, and he tries to explain to the others where he was:
"... I was there. I was up there. Remember yesterday at the convention? Those people dressed like aliens? They were aliens. They were termites ...or Dalmatians. I can’t really remember because I was kinda hung over."


"Unless you're prepared to surrender everything, don't surrender anything."

When seconds matter, it's reassuring to know that the police are only minutes away.

"Only the paranoid survive."

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Lindir wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:10 am That’s good to know about the destroyer. I had read that article that claimed the show had utterly betrayed Asimov’s story by introducing a sci-fi gimmick 🙄 I’ve seen it regurgitated on other review sites too.
That's kind of sad. Lest anyone think I suffer from cognitive dissonance, I can make a clear distinction between fidelity to a densely-written, highly developed book that gives you so much depth and texture, like The Lord of the Rings or Dune, versus to one that is much more nebulous, like Foundation. Deviating from LOTR, which is so clear and distinct on paper, and so beautifully written, seems a much greater "sin" than deviating from Foundation, which is rather loose. But everyone has their own "religion," and though I acknowledge Asimov as one of the greats of sci-fi, I'll never put his works in a class with Tolkien's. The upside is that I can be more forgiving of liberties taken with his works...and the show takes many liberties. Most of them add a texture and depth that wasn't really there in the early books (or replaces one that would seem horribly anachronistic now) and therefore are a positive thing. The only thing that has happened so far that I might characterize as utterly betraying Asimov's story is that one certain event between Hari and Raych on the ship to Terminus. Taken at face value, it would certainly be a betrayal of the characters written by Asimov. However, I sensed a red herring, and a subsequent episode has validated my perception, and so I'm waiting to see where they go with this. In the meantime, I'm not calling it an utter betrayal, despite how shocking it was in the moment. However it plays out, ultimately this is an example of the show taking a very different path to get to a place than the book took., and is undoubtedly a result of Goyer's need to make certain characters be continuing players. Slight spoiler: in the books neither Hari nor Raych ever go to Terminus...or live much past the time when the ship departs for Terminus. How their stories played out in the books is very different from what is depicted in the show but at the end of the day, both media arrive at the same point: neither man is on Terminus.

All that said, although the show appears to be building toward the same crisis with Anacreon over the warship, the show has not even thought about showing the groundwork by which the Foundation depicted in the books set the stage for its defeat of Anacreon, so I imagine the show will do something entirely different. Honestly, I always rolled my eyes a bit at how the Foundation in the books gained an early upper hand over its neighbors. Ironically, that method seems so much more likely and relevant in our modern times than when Asimov wrote it and I first read it that I would actually be surprised if Goyer totally deviates from it, given his oft-stated desire to make the story speak to our times. We'll see.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Deimos wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:37 am
You two and your "termites" remind me of the scene from Galaxy Quest when Jason is back on earth after his first experience commanding the Thermians, and he tries to explain to the others where he was:
"... I was there. I was up there. Remember yesterday at the convention? Those people dressed like aliens? They were aliens. They were termites ...or Dalmatians. I can’t really remember because I was kinda hung over."
LOL

I haven't watched that one in a long time.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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:crazy: I haven’t seen Galaxy Quest in ages, so I definitely need to watch it soon. I used to love that film as a kid.

Another great episode of Foundation. It really is killing me waiting for the next episode each week haha. The space sequences are really interesting. I’m interested in hearing your thoughts on this episode and how the war ship is depicted. The atmosphere of the episode was really well done, being able to be slightly creepy/unnerving without it feeling too cheesy.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Lindir wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:58 pm :crazy: I haven’t seen Galaxy Quest in ages, so I definitely need to watch it soon. I used to love that film as a kid. ...
I still love it, still watch it, and I haven't been a kid for a long, long time. :crazy: :laugh:


"Unless you're prepared to surrender everything, don't surrender anything."

When seconds matter, it's reassuring to know that the police are only minutes away.

"Only the paranoid survive."

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I really liked Galaxy Quest, being a huge fan of Star Trek and former frequenter of Star Trek conventions, as well as a fan of Sigourney Weaver (and of course, Alan Rickman). I haven't watched it in forever because it exists in that limbo where I have the DVD and would be slumming by watching a DVD, but I haven't wanted to watch it bad enough to upgrade to the BD. First world problem, I know.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I’m listening to the latest episode now. It pretty much confirms my original theory way back from episode 2 that this would be the start of the second foundation. The only thing I got wrong was that Hari isn’t alive - I had actually expected him to survive. He still might tbf, his coffin is very suspicious.

I like that it’s an AI consciousness though because it means Jarred Harris can return to the story at any point.

Episode 9 is called the first crisis so I’m excited to see what lies ahead. We only have three episodes left now. I really hope this is an annual series because I really really really can’t wait 2 years for another season.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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I'm starting to understand now why one reviewer said that they felt like the first season covered only about 20% of the first book. In the book, there are four or five Seldon crises. So if the first season is just depicting one, that equates to 20%. So if they are going to cherry-pick which crises to depict, I guess I prefer that rather than stretch the story line of the first book, which was pretty threadbare, over five seasons. That would certainly claim the crown of needless story expansion away from Peter Jackson's Hobbit trilogy, LOL. But my biggest worry is that they are going to jack around with invented story lines and run out of time to tell the stories Asimov told, especially the sequels from the 1980s.

Thus far, I felt the first episode was predominantly, or at least 50%, derived directly from Asimov, and the rest of it was story expansion and embroidery. After the first episode, the balance has shifted way toward expansion and away from Asimov. Essentially, anything dealing with the clone emperors is "fictitious," as is anything dealing with religion. Not that it isn't interesting, but it leaves me feeling like, say, are you guys planning on telling the story Asimov told? Speaking of religion, what they are doing now may be laying the groundwork for something that is actually in the books. The only religion depicted in the books was that as the systems near Terminus backslid and lost science, the Foundation made a religion out of nuclear energy, and used that religion to control its neighbors. I kind of rolled my eyes when I first read that, way back when, but now I view it a bit differently. Asimov was raised Jewish but I don't know how observant his family was, and later in his life he was a confirmed atheist. So he certainly had notions about religion and how it is used. And seeing such things play out in the real world today, using religion to control people now seems relevant and topical. In any event, it will be interesting to see what the show does with that.

I haven't read yet when they expect the next season to debut. Goyer has said that the first season was very complicated, even without Covid. But yeah, I hope this doesn't go years between seasons. I'm getting a little too old to be waiting that long!
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Yeh I figured it would be mostly expansion considering how much Salvor Hardin is in the show. That being said, it’ll be sad to see her go when her story is told because I’ve grown attached to her throughout this first season.

I wonder if season 2 may include a few of the next crises and sort of speed up the story? That being said, regardless of what’s Asimovs and what’s expansion, I’m still really thrilled to be spending time in this universe.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Olorin wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:44 am "... using religion to control people...."
Warning! Warning, Will Robinson! Major thread hijack ahead!
(Depending on how you answer this question it might require a new thread)

Olorin, (or anyone else) have you read the Heinlein novel "Revolt in 2100". It has also appeared as "If This Goes On ---"
If so, 1) what did you think of it, and 2) do you think it could successfully be made into a movie?


"Unless you're prepared to surrender everything, don't surrender anything."

When seconds matter, it's reassuring to know that the police are only minutes away.

"Only the paranoid survive."

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Deimos wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:18 pm
Olorin wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:44 am "... using religion to control people...."
Olorin, (or anyone else) have you read the Heinlein novel "Revolt in 2100". It has also appeared as "If This Goes On ---"
If so, 1) what did you think of it, and 2) do you think it could successfully be made into a movie?
Yes I read it, nigh on 40 years ago, when I was in my big Heinlein phase. I found it chilling and nightmarish. I can't go into more detail without violating our ban on political discussion and without starting us down a rabbithole that nobody wants to go down. As to whether it could be made into a movie, I think it would not be likely. First of all, would anybody want to see it? Sure, dystopias have been all the rage but that genre may be played out, and ever if it were not, I'm not sure someone wants to see a movie about religious fascism. Moreover, the topic would be super-political. The religious side would claim that it vilifies religion and the non-religious side would say it soft-peddles what the true situation would be like. It would be hard to imagine a major studio putting up the money to make such a risky endeavor, so at most it would have to be an indy project.

I am not aware of that many Heinlein books that have ever been adapted. There was of course the infamous Starship Troopers movie, which despite its Brat Pack-like cast and general goofiness, actually managed to capture some of the novel. And it had Rue McClanahan as an academy instructor...which I found very odd. There was an adaptation of the Puppet Masters (with Donald Sutherland as "the Old Man") that I thought was probably about the best that could be done on no budget, but it got bad reviews. And really, that's about all I can think of. So unlike say, Stephen King, more Heinlein adaptations don't seem very likely.

I used to really like Heinlein, and found his stories engrossing. I have never re-read any of them, but sometimes I feel I should eventually read the uncut version of Stranger in a Strange Land. I read the original "short" version in high school and though I remember little about it, I think I was pretty gob-smacked. I'd be curious to know if my much older and much more jaded brain would still be as impressed. I think also when I first read Heinlein, I didn't know know that some of his stuff was accused of glorifying fascism (Starship Troopers) or was controversial for other reasons. Again, it might be interesting to see what I'd make of them now. I think by the end of his career, the biggest controversy was that old fans/critics felt he had lost his edge for tackling controversial topics and only wanted to write about polyamorous relationships. A friend once said (when Heinlein was still alive) that he had been dead for years but that hadn't stopped him from continuing to crank out new books. But at the end of the day, I have more or less sworn off buying new books or re-reading ones I've already read, since I have such a huge backlog of unread books. This year I estimated that it takes me about a month to read a book, since I seem unable to devote much time to it, and at that rate it will take me until I'm 98 to polish off my existing backlog.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Olorin wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:37 pm
Deimos wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:18 pm
Olorin wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:44 am "... using religion to control people...."
Olorin, (or anyone else) have you read the Heinlein novel "Revolt in 2100". It has also appeared as "If This Goes On ---"
If so, 1) what did you think of it, and 2) do you think it could successfully be made into a movie?
Yes I read it, nigh on 40 years ago, when I was in my big Heinlein phase. I found it chilling and nightmarish. I can't go into more detail without violating our ban on political discussion and without starting us down a rabbithole that nobody wants to go down. As to whether it could be made into a movie, I think it would not be likely. First of all, would anybody want to see it? Sure, dystopias have been all the rage but that genre may be played out, and ever if it were not, I'm not sure someone wants to see a movie about religious fascism. Moreover, the topic would be super-political. The religious side would claim that it vilifies religion and the non-religious side would say it soft-peddles what the true situation would be like. It would be hard to imagine a major studio putting up the money to make such a risky endeavor, so at most it would have to be an indy project.

I am not aware of that many Heinlein books that have ever been adapted. There was of course the infamous Starship Troopers movie, which despite its Brat Pack-like cast and general goofiness, actually managed to capture some of the novel. And it had Rue McClanahan as an academy instructor...which I found very odd. There was an adaptation of the Puppet Masters (with Donald Sutherland as "the Old Man") that I thought was probably about the best that could be done on no budget, but it got bad reviews. And really, that's about all I can think of. So unlike say, Stephen King, more Heinlein adaptations don't seem very likely.

I used to really like Heinlein, and found his stories engrossing. I have never re-read any of them, but sometimes I feel I should eventually read the uncut version of Stranger in a Strange Land. I read the original "short" version in high school and though I remember little about it, I think I was pretty gob-smacked. I'd be curious to know if my much older and much more jaded brain would still be as impressed. I think also when I first read Heinlein, I didn't know know that some of his stuff was accused of glorifying fascism (Starship Troopers) or was controversial for other reasons. Again, it might be interesting to see what I'd make of them now. I think by the end of his career, the biggest controversy was that old fans/critics felt he had lost his edge for tackling controversial topics and only wanted to write about polyamorous relationships. A friend once said (when Heinlein was still alive) that he had been dead for years but that hadn't stopped him from continuing to crank out new books. But at the end of the day, I have more or less sworn off buying new books or re-reading ones I've already read, since I have such a huge backlog of unread books. This year I estimated that it takes me about a month to read a book, since I seem unable to devote much time to it, and at that rate it will take me until I'm 98 to polish off my existing backlog.
I have no use for his polyamory stuff....beginning with SiaSL and anything after that.
I've enjoyed (and still enjoy) most of his "Juvenile Fiction" (Star Beast, Tunnel in the Sky, Citizen of the Galaxy, etc)
Some of his more adult fiction (prior to all the polyamory stuff) I like and still re-read: Double Star, Puppet Masters, Moon is a Harsh Mistress.
I like a lot of his short stories from the Future Histories collections
As for Revolt in 2100/If This Goes On---well of course a theocracy is nightmarish, that was his point. That's why there was a "revolt" :rolleye: ;)
I've never understood the charge of "glorifying fascism" against ST. You aren't the first to say it.
The way I see it, and have always seen it, is a story in the Bildungsroman genre; a kid joins the army and fights battles around the galaxy and acquires not a little wisdom about himself and human nature.

I'm a practicing Roman Catholic and Heinlein doesn't offend me at all; certainly not his Revolt in 2100. I was quite happy to know that The Prophet was dismembered. And as for his polyamory stuff, I don't agree with his justification(s) for espousing it, but it doesn't upset or anger me.

If you don't want to further discuss his stuff that is OK by me, but we have had numerous discussions that have violated the forum rules on politics and if not religion per se, at least on ethics and morals.
I'm running out of time to be angry or upset about other peoples opinions, beliefs, convictions etc, no matter how much I may disagree with them.
In the end, "all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well."


"Unless you're prepared to surrender everything, don't surrender anything."

When seconds matter, it's reassuring to know that the police are only minutes away.

"Only the paranoid survive."

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As an admin and the guy who wrote some of the rules, I can hardly be the one to flout them. But beyond that, politics in this country have become so bitterly divisive that I don't like talking about them, and I fear they will be this country's undoing.

But getting back to Heinlein, I thought a bit about whether we should have a thread on him, or on the old SF grandmasters in general. But we are such a small forum, with most of the members mostly just into fantasy and fantasy weapons, it would hardly seem worthwhile.

I too really enjoyed some of Heinlein's "juvenile" fiction, such as Citizen of the Galaxy. I also really liked the Puppet Masters and the Door into Summer. And I very much liked Time Enough for Love, though that was probably about the time that the downhill slide began. But it was an intriguing idea, a eugenics program that bred for longevity, and it let Lazarus Long live into the era of artificial longevity prolongation.

Heinlein liked cats, another plus. The Cat Who Walks Through Walls was a sequel of sorts to the Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Pixel could walk through walls, and cross the multiverse, simply because no one ever told him he could not. Remember what I said recently about cats' abilities? Well, maybe crossing the multiverse is not one of them, but they're still pretty cool.

Heinlein was from Missouri, a neighboring state to me and where I went to grad school. He grew up around Kansas City, which I've visited a few times and which is a very unique place to find plopped right into the middle of the Midwest. So it was interesting reading him talking about it, in the guise of Lazarus Long. I remember Lazarus saying that he knew it in its golden age at the dawn of the twentieth century, walked its dirty canyon streets in the twenty-first century, and saw it lying dead in the forty-second century. Well, none of us will see the forty-second century, but what an idea, another aspect of a tremendously long life, to see the endless changing of the places around you.

And I guess those are my remembrances of Heinlein's works, or certainly the ones that come most readily to mind.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Olorin wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:37 pm I am not aware of that many Heinlein books that have ever been adapted. There was of course the infamous Starship Troopers movie, which despite its Brat Pack-like cast and general goofiness, actually managed to capture some of the novel. And it had Rue McClanahan as an academy instructor...which I found very odd. There was an adaptation of the Puppet Masters (with Donald Sutherland as "the Old Man") that I thought was probably about the best that could be done on no budget, but it got bad reviews. And really, that's about all I can think of. So unlike say, Stephen King, more Heinlein adaptations don't seem very likely.
There were a few 1950s films that Heinlein co-wrote, but not many adaptations, other than some tv stuff. There was an earlier adaptation of Puppet Masters called The Brain Eaters, but that was just a cheesy Roger Corman rip off of his story. He co-wrote the Destination Moon script. He wrote the Destination Moon novella afterwards, so I suppose that one was not really an adaptation.

There was a '90s animated series based on Red Planet, and another called Roughnecks, based on Starship Troopers. There was also a really good adaptation of Heinlein's short story All You Zombies back in 2014, with Ethan Hawke, called Predestination. It's probably the best film made of a Heinlein story. Worth checking out.

There are a lot of Heinleins early books and short stories that could be made into film adaptations. I would love to see someone tackle Methuselah's Children. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and The Cat Who Walks Through Walls could would make a good two season series for Netflix or Amazon.
KRDS

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So, I've watched the 8th episode and one of the "fictitious" storyllines (totally made up by the screenwriters), that of the clone Cleons, in particular Brother Day, continues to be the most interesting part of the show. I wonder how much of what Brother Day did during his visit to the Maiden was planned in advance, how much was just luck, and how much was an honest quest to see whether, by the standards of Luminism, he has a soul or not. (Random thought..."clone" is an anagram of "Cleon." I wonder if the writers realized that?) Seeing the flower on Demerzel's vanity was obviously just dumb luck, a bit of luck that helped him accomplish the goal of his trip. But I think part of his reason for taking the Spiral pilgrimage was actually for self-discovery. I also think the writers may have said, what's a plotline where we can have Lee Pace out of most of his clothes for an extended period? Also, I think the director may have said, "OK Lee, stagger through the desert" but Pace heard "swagger through the desert." Seriously, I haven't seen an actor physically swagger that much since Yul Brynner played Rameses in The Ten Commandments. Methinks the young man knows he looks good scantily clad.

Kidding aside, this storyline raised a much more serious question: how is Demerzel able to kill? Goyer has said the show has the rights to the Three Laws of Robotics, but suggests Demerzel may no longer be completely bound by them. That in itself is a deviation from Asimov's robot lore. The Three Laws were not just software, which could be corrupted, written over, or replaced. They were designed right into the chip architecture. The only way that robots could violate the First Law, the prohibition on killing a human or allowing a human to come to harm, was a late development in Asimov's writing, the Zeroth Law introduced in Robots and Empire. The Zeroth Law takes precedence over all other laws and states that a robot cannot harm humanity or allow humanity to come to harm. And of the three robots in Asimov's stories that take actions that result in death, albeit to the betterment of humanity, only one is sufficiently advanced that his belief that he is doing the right thing allows him to survive. And even he is very judicious about how much he interferes in human affairs, always fearful of that moment where he crosses the invisible line and his brain shorts out. So does Demerzel believe that in doing the Emperor's bidding, it is for the betterment of humanity? Or is she somehow miraculously no longer bound by the First Law?

It's a little embarrassing to say, but even through I reread the whole series in late summer, some of the specifics of the early books have faded already. That said, I think that the storyline with Salvor and the Anacreonians is actually a combination of two different Seldon crises from the books. I suspect that when it comes to a head, the Vault will open. Goyer has said that if you have read the books and think you know what the Vault is, you are wrong (which begs the question, are you making Foundation or are you just taking the names and telling different stories?) Every week, the podcast host asks Goyer what's in the Vault, and Goyer gives a different cocky answer. But it looks like in the next week or two, we will see what he thinks is in the Vault.

The show is also taking a much more circuitous route to setting up the Second Foundation. Goyer correctly says that in the books (if read in publication order), you don't find out much about the Second Foundation until the third book, and correctly states that show needs to set it up earlier and not wait to the third season to spring it on the audience. However, the second prequel, Forward the Foundation, dealt in some detail with the genesis of the Second Foundation. I've gotten that the show is not going to adapt the prequels, not even to the extent of using some of their storylines as flashbacks, but rather is limiting itself to cherry-picking a few characters and ideas. So I think we are going to get a different origin for the Second Foundation, and possibly a different location for it as well. The location and nature of the Second Foundation are the background mystery running through the original trilogy. Half the second book and all of the third are quests to find the Second Foundation. It's not until the end of the third book that you learn where it is, and it's a bit of a jaw dropper. If that is changed for the show... well, it doesn't automatically change the nature of the story or its ability to get to the same end point as the novels, but it does take it unnecessary steps further from Asimov.

Where I feel this show is on the fidelity spectrum is a weekly calculus. Compared to adaptions of other sci fi or fantasy stories, it is definitely not among the more faithful. Take Dune, for example. Nearly 100% of what you see in the movie is from the book, and where it diverges from the book is through omission, not commission. A less faithful adaptation would be Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings. It's relatively faithful, but invents a fair bit in addition to altering some things. And at the far end of my scale would be the I, Robot movie and the Nightfall movie, which include little other than basic ideas and a few names. I, Robot took basic ideas and characters and told a completely "fictitious" story that felt very faithful to the spirit of Asimov, whereas Nightfall, well Nightfall was just a mess that didn't feel at all like it should've. Foundation is relatively more faithful than I, Robot, because it is using the actual story as a leaping off point, whereas I, Robot adapted none of the stories from its source book. Yet Foundation tends to feel like it has strayed down the garden path as far as Nightfall did, particularly with this Luminism arc (religion was a major element in the Nightfall adaptation).

The series is certainly interesting (and visually stunning), and I'll tune in every week. It may be a good show, and may even end up being a reasonable adaptation of the books. But I think it is reasonable to say that the lust to have another Game of Thrones (with a smidgen of Westworld thrown in for good measure) is dragging it well past the level of alteration and invention that was actually needed. Stay tuned!
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
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