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Well, I really want to like this show, but they're making absolutely everything they can to ruin it... And they're succeeding.
Apparently Amazon Prime Video UK uploaded this cringeworty video with random people acting as 'LOTR superfans' and asked them to comment on the teaser trailer. It's so awful that they were 'forced' to unlist the video a couple hours later :shock:
Watch at your own risk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APQuy_mB1dw

I'm afraid my expectations with ROP are now even more close to zero... Indeed, the world of difference in these quotes say it all:
“It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien’s work would reflect what the world actually looks like.”
“Can we come up with the novel Tolkien never wrote and do it as the mega-event series that could only happen now?”
- Lindsey Weber & Patrick McKay, Executive Producer & Showrunner of Amazon's ROP Series, Vanity Fair (Feb. 2022)
"There are certainly themes Tolkien felt were important. We made a promise to ourselves at the beginning of the process that we weren't going to put any of our own politics, our own messages or our own themes into these movies. What we were trying to do was to analyse what was important to Tolkien and to try to honor that. In a way, were trying to make these films for him, not for ourselves."
- Peter Jackson, Interview with GreenCine (Dec. 2002)

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A world of difference.
"And... between us and you there is a great gulf fixed..."

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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Levidas wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 2:01 pm Well, I really want to like this show, but they're making absolutely everything they can to ruin it... And they're succeeding.
Apparently Amazon Prime Video UK uploaded this cringeworty video with random people acting as 'LOTR superfans' and asked them to comment on the teaser trailer. It's so awful that they were 'forced' to unlist the video a couple hours later :shock:
Watch at your own risk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APQuy_mB1dw

I'm afraid my expectations with ROP are now even more close to zero... Indeed, the world of difference in these quotes say it all:
“It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien’s work would reflect what the world actually looks like.”
“Can we come up with the novel Tolkien never wrote and do it as the mega-event series that could only happen now?”
- Lindsey Weber & Patrick McKay, Executive Producer & Showrunner of Amazon's ROP Series, Vanity Fair (Feb. 2022)
"There are certainly themes Tolkien felt were important. We made a promise to ourselves at the beginning of the process that we weren't going to put any of our own politics, our own messages or our own themes into these movies. What we were trying to do was to analyse what was important to Tolkien and to try to honor that. In a way, were trying to make these films for him, not for ourselves."
- Peter Jackson, Interview with GreenCine (Dec. 2002)
Yes, it's terrible, it's completely unfortunate, at least in the UK and Spanish versions that I've seen, although not in full, I couldn't.

I saw it yesterday, and they have done it in many languages with the local influencers of each country. I left the links in case someone wants to see it in another language:

German version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbY1a3RVcUM
Spain version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxKX3kkMMv0
Netherlands version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAHJBNT82vU
Italian version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFd_DUaFThM
French version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QU7YFf1mqc

I sincerely hope that the content of the series is not tailor-made for this type of target audience, but that this is just a campaign to bring young people closer.

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@Olorin and @EagleFriend - great idea merging the two threads! No apologies needed in any regard! My intent was a thread solely on the weapons and their replicas... but seeing how they haven't even sold the license / rights yet... that enthusiasm was premature.

I hate to admit it, but besides The Hobbit and LOTR, i have not read any other works by Tolkien. So this conversation is way above my head lol. Very interesting read though! :)
"Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum!"

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Jash wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 1:06 pm @Olorin and @EagleFriend - great idea merging the two threads! No apologies needed in any regard!

Thanks for understanding.

This tread could have been fantastic...
I was somewhat excited for this show and it's a shame that there isn't at least (a bare minimum) a visual continuity with the movies.
I hopped for more Middle Earth looking weapons... that look that was established in PJ movies (mainly from the trilogy).
"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, today is a gift - that's why they call it the present."

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Levidas wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 2:01 pm Well, I really want to like this show, but they're making absolutely everything they can to ruin it... And they're succeeding.
Apparently Amazon Prime Video UK uploaded this cringeworty video with random people acting as 'LOTR superfans' and asked them to comment on the teaser trailer. It's so awful that they were 'forced' to unlist the video a couple hours later :shock:
Watch at your own risk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APQuy_mB1dw

I'm afraid my expectations with ROP are now even more close to zero... Indeed, the world of difference in these quotes say it all:
“It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien’s work would reflect what the world actually looks like.”
“Can we come up with the novel Tolkien never wrote and do it as the mega-event series that could only happen now?”
- Lindsey Weber & Patrick McKay, Executive Producer & Showrunner of Amazon's ROP Series, Vanity Fair (Feb. 2022)
"There are certainly themes Tolkien felt were important. We made a promise to ourselves at the beginning of the process that we weren't going to put any of our own politics, our own messages or our own themes into these movies. What we were trying to do was to analyse what was important to Tolkien and to try to honor that. In a way, were trying to make these films for him, not for ourselves."
- Peter Jackson, Interview with GreenCine (Dec. 2002)
Both those quotes sums up the approach taken by those incharge of adapting Middle Earth to the screen and like you said they are worlds apart.
Image

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Posting this because I feel bad about the situation.

I think it’s easy to say that things are done for money, to strip away artistic merit on the basis that because they’re made to make money how can they ever be true art. We know that this isn’t the case. Amazon surely saw it as a pot of gold but I imagine that for a lot of people involved in this show, it was a passion project for them even if we don’t agree with their creative decisions.

I probably had the shallowest reason for being against the series in that the visual language would not be the same as the Middle Earth I grew up with. I completely get being against a series but there comes a point where if you don’t enjoy something or have little to no interest in something then you can simply choose not to watch it or not engage with it.

What’s making me feel bad is that though we may have valid complaints or things that are irking us and putting us off this series, there’s a very hateful section of the fandom that will do everything to undermine it no matter what. The hate against this series seems somewhat unjustified at this point. Yes there are changes to the story, yes there are modern politics inserted but it could still be a great story. Peter Jackson’s LOTR is great because its his vision and it’s his story to some extent because even he and the writers made changes to fit with the vision they had. If LOTR was adapted by someone else, it could have been great or it could have been terrible. They live and die by their own merits and evolve with new story tellers. If stories can’t evolve, they lose their relevance to society. But I get it, it’s hard to see a story you’re passionate about be changed.

If I watch one of the trailers on YouTube I’m instantly inundated with recommendations for YouTubers hating on the series, saying it will fail because it’s woke, attacking the creators, etc. it feels very much like Star Wars now. The fandom side of it is not enjoyable. I fear the Middle Earth fandom will become just as tainted as the Star Wars one and for what? I’m suffering massive Star Wars fatigue and I’m not even sure I’m a fan anymore, in part because I feel the story isn’t progressing (constant nostalgia trip) but honestly, the biggest reason is the fandom. Anywhere you go on the internet it descends into a toxic debate about which trilogy is better, if you like the prequels you’re an idiot, if you like the sequels you’re an idiot.

I fear the same will happen with Middle Earth. Instead of being able to enjoy these things or have constructive discussions about why we may not like things it simply descends into mindless drama queening and insult hurling.

Issues about being “woke” are sensitive and are sure to rile people up regardless of where they stand but it’s sad that our society is such that to include anyone of colour is a political statement. The skin tones don’t personally bother me. What bothers me more is that elves have short hair and I honestly didn’t think it would bother me as much. As I said, my issues for being against the series are fairly shallow so it’s a little easier for me to bury the hatchet.

I guess what I want to say is that I hope it does well, I hope it finds an audience who enjoy it. I’ll be tuning in to give it a shot. If I don’t like it, I can simply switch off.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Hi Lindir... you have some very thoughtful opinions (as in "well thought out") and I am loathe to disagree with you.... mostly.

To paraphrase someone (who?...wish I could recall): Those LOTR Movie parts that are good are not "PJ originals", and those parts that are "PJ originals" are not good.***
Seriously, he got about 65% spot on, another 25% that he had to change from the book because doing it "by the book" would make an awful dramatization, and then the 10% that was pure (and purely cringeworthy) PJ "interpretation."

I haven't seen any of the hate comments directed at the new series (wherever they come from) but there is (imo) one legitimate complaint:
no significant changes from canon should be either gratuitous or ideologically motivated.
Cost can be a factor, of course, but to use your example, I can't see that having actors with short elven hair cost any less than using long elven hair.
That one sounds like a change for the sake of change driven by some ME illiterate who wants to put his/her stamp on the series, not unlike a dog marking its territory.

What I see (looking in my palantir) is a series that will have the name but not the game.
In other words, what we will see (would see, in my case, if I were going to watch it) is a barely recognizable Middle Earth, with most of the changes being precisely both gratuitous and ideologically driven.... a pseudo-Tolkien train wreck.

***Edit: found the quote (pretty funny...and devastating) by Samuel Johnson when asked to evaluate a colleague's book:
Your manuscript is both good and original; but the part that is good is not original, and the part that is original is not good.
PJ, call your office :laugh:
Last edited by Deimos on Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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Thank you for your response Deimos.

I want to clarify that my post wasn’t motivated by anyone here. We all had a somewhat heated discussion earlier this year but it was still civil and we’re lucky it didn’t descend into chaos as it often does elsewhere on the internet. But I think that’s mainly to do with the fact that we’re a small forum with members who have been here for a long time.

I’m referring mainly to YouTube whose algorithm is definitely geared toward promoting hateful content and content that will get people riled up. I guess all social media works on this premise but I personally find it to be most bothersome on YouTube.

I wanted to put my thoughts somewhere they’d be critiqued and discussed politely and luckily they were, so thank you, Deimos :)

I completely get what you’re saying though. Some changes within the series are gratuitous and you touched on something that I had felt, and I’m sure others have felt, in that with some choices they appear to be trying to distance themselves from the PJ movies visually, but then some things (like Gil Galad and Aeglos) look oddly similar but in a cheap, knock off kind of way.

One of the changes that I’m most skeptical of, aside from the visual language, is making Galadriel an action hero. I think Galadriel was powerful and strong enough without having to wield a sword. I may still enjoy seeing her run around in armour, but I loved how other worldly the elves felt in the PJ movies. I think he really got that right.

In something like the Witcher, the elves are interbred with humans and for most of them they’ve lost that “otherworldly” quality. That’s what the elves here feel like to me. I know this is ideologically driven and I’m not against showing that women can be on the battlefield, but women can be also be powerful without needing to wield weapons, as can men. I think they could have invented a female character to fulfil the action role but kept Galadriel as Galadriel.

Though I feel being inclusive is good, I’m skeptical about how different movies and tv studios implement it.

I often find that with decisions to be “more inclusive” it can feel more bigoted in its application than it was intended. By being inclusive they just parrot the traditional stereotypes so it’s cheap, point scoring inclusivity and feels ham fisted. This is an area I’ve complained about before, with them shoving random gay characters in to stories that simply exist as stereotypes or taking characters and devolving them into stereotypes like Loras Tyrell in GOT who was a more nuanced character in the books.

The other way is that they may paint the characters as victims. There’s a lot to be said on this subject and I don’t know if this is the best place to discuss it really, but I will say that not all of us who belong to minority groups are victims. To paint everyone as a victim is to demean them, an odd form of “othering” and it robs people who are genuine victims of their experience.

What hurts though is that the ham fistedness can draw out the more extreme members of society with genuinely bigoted views and rile them up into a frenzy.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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If you allow me to enter the debate, I honestly still have a tiny hope (although it is getting smaller and smaller) that the series is good and also is at least a little faithful to Tolkien's work, and that simply what has happened is that it has a disastrous marketing campaign and actors with more ego than neurons ...I guess it's just a fool's hope.

But if finally the series is what it seems, which is that it has almost nothing to do with Middle-earth, that it is something almost completely invented and that changes the few authentic things it could be for political reasons ...that Tolkien only has the mark , the names and a couple of references ... I'll stop seeing it after the first few episodes.

Although I love having new things to see about Middle-earth and wanted a Silmarillion series more than anything in the world, what worries me with this series is that it could set a bad precedent. That if they do something that has nothing to do with Middle-earth really but is still a success that works economically, we will probably never see anything faithful to Tolkien's work again in our lifetime, because who has the rights ,as long as it is profitable, it will not release them and they will continue to exploit them. And how these showrunners appear to be, there are many more people who don't love or know Tolkien's work, but would be happy to sell better their own stories and ideas, taking advantage of the fame of Tolkien's work.

If so, I'd rather it fail and be cancelled. Let it serve as a warning that Tolkien's work must be respected for future adaptations... which I am sure there will be despite the fact that ROP could fail, because it has already been more than demonstrated with the Jackson trilogy, that if it is done well, Middle Earth is very very profitable, no matter how much money is invested. I honestly prefer little and quality, that is made with respect and true love, than a lot of poor quality content made just thinking of making a brand profitable and nothing else. I think that those of us who love the Legendarium have to protect it, because it seems that whoever manages its legacy now only cares about money.

Another thing I don't understand is the reaction to the criticism today, tagging to everything that goes against something as "toxic". You can no longer criticize something that you think is wrong... or you love it without objecting, or you're a toxic hater. I suppose it is an inserted speech, based on repeating it in the media over and over again, so that we censor each other. I believe that criticism is necessary to improve, so that the mistakes that we all make and of which we are not aware can be seen and corrected. Unbiased flattery is not a good thing, that is the really harmful thing that only serves to inflate the ego of people without self-criticism and create mediocre content. Today, when something is criticized, even constructively, insults are received in return and you are marked as toxic.

For me the biggest problem that the series is showing (or at least what we have been taught from the series) never been the forced diversity that it has, but the arrogance of those who are involved, who believe that they are better than Tolkien and that they are improving / correcting the all the life's work of a genius.

The normal thing would be, that with this negative response that the series has had, it would delay and correct everything that is wrong... if I'm not mistaken PJ corrected things based on the response of the fans even after having filmed, like to Arwen fighting in Helm's Deep... but instead, those responsible for ROP are dedicated to insulting the critical fans and trying to incite the rest against the critics, instead of admitting that they have done something wrong.

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There is definitely criticism to be had, and I am not against criticism, I’ve raised my own just in my previous posts. There is a difference, however, between being critical and being toxic in your rhetoric.

I think we’ve all raised our own criticism about the series here and those are valid criticisms. No member here is toxic in their rhetoric. We’ve all been friends for a long time and though we have disagreements, those disagreements don’t drive us apart and for me, personally, that’s why I always come back here. Our criticism don’t come merely from a place of hatred and we don’t individually seek to cause disarray or hateful vitriol against the actors or creatives involved.

Criticism will always be important. But, there is definitely a small minority of people who make money from causing division among fandoms. Making money from it really irritates me. You will have seen their content on YouTube and on other social media. You may even agree with some of their arguments and that’s totally fine too, but those people are ultimately toxic because their entire existence and online presence seems skewed toward hating something. As their audience grows, they have to move on to other properties because eventually people will get bored, so the issue grows, like a cancer, slowly affecting every fandom.

You’re right though that sometimes we confuse valid criticism with toxicity which isn’t fair, but sadly the more toxic members use that to further their own cause. I’m not even sure what they get out of it, I don’t quite understand what is so great about being so resentful and bitter to be honest, but for whatever reason, they do it.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Yes, you are right that there are channels that are dedicated to criticizing everything and take money from the situation. They are quickly identified because, as you say, they jump from one topic to another to constantly criticize. I don't usually pay much attention to these channels and I only see one of their videos rarely, only when they comment on an article about ROP that I haven't seen before or they show the statements of some actor, showrunner, producers and others on interviews or social networks , because I am not at all active on social networks and otherwise I would not find out anything. But the videos about his personal opinions and criticism of the trailers and series, I do not open them.

But honestly, those channels don't bother me any more than the countless articles on the internet that, to defend ROP, are dedicated to denigrating/disparaging Tolkien and his work, the PJ movies, and insulting critical fans.

There are also some youtube channels that criticize the series, but they are true fans of the Legendarium and they do it with good arguments, others that talk about Middle-earth but almost completely avoid the topic of the series to avoid problems, snd others who defend ROP at any price and who ban anyone who does not have the same opinion. There is everything on YouTube and the more you see a type of content, the more it appears.

I don't think that the blame for this hatred is due to those types of channels, but rather I guess it's the other way around, that the success of these channels is due to the fact that there are many fans who are fed up with the fact that the current entertainment industry destroys the stories they love for commercial/ideological/political reasons and that exploit and squeeze them without the slightest criteria or love.

I know it's always been a business, but before things were really done with the fans in mind, but now I see that they are done "for everyone". I guess because the geek, what used to be for marginalized, is now fashionable. But I see that many of those who approach this world of geeks for fashion, do not do so because they like and respect those stories that we love, but because to pose (like the young who buys an Iron Maiden shirt in a fashion store without ever having heard anything about heavy metal, just because it's fashionable), and I think the industry knows it and to take advantage of and make that vein last, it knows that it's easier to change what we love so that everyone likes it, Adjust it to the fashion of the moment, so that everyone likes the authenticity that we true fans love.

If you want to blame something for everything that is happening, I think it is Big Bang Theory's fault, which put geek culture on the radar of "the moderns". :P At the time I thought it was very good, but I guess it wasn't in the end.

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The train has wrecked...big time.
I didn't actually see the wreck ( I have a weak stomach) but from what I've been reading it's total, complete.
And I guess the GoT series wasn't great but left RoP in the dust anyway.
ROFL.... can't wait to see what the Big Honchos at Amazon are going to say (and do) about it. :D

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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I’m not sure it’s wrecked. There’s review bombing currently ongoing, sadly. The reviews from fans of Tolkien and people who haven’t read the material are mixed to positive from what I’ve seen as well as some negative who don’t like the changes. I’m not overly familiar with what the story should be, but I’m enjoying it so far.

I was positively surprised by it. It’s very easy to get bogged down in negativity so I was honestly expecting it to be a cheap fantasy movie with bare bones characterisation and story. After these two episodes, I’m feeling more positive it has the potential to be good if not great. I hope they don’t squander it.

It’s really cast well and the first two episodes have some genuinely touching moments between it’s cast of characters. Weaponry looks much better on screen than it did in the promo images we saw. The elven longswords/great swords have really grown on me. I’ve had time to make peace with the fact it won’t marry up with the Middle Earth we’ve already been exposed to on screen, and that’s ok.

One of my favourite scenes was a small interaction between Elrond and Celebrimbor where they discuss the silmarils and Morgoth. I’ve still yet to read the Silmarillion so not sure how accurate it was, but I just really enjoyed the sequence.

In terms of the “woke casting” it didn’t bother me. I’ve made my thoughts clear previously but I’ll say it didn’t feel tacked on or intrusive, it wasn’t played up as being important, they were just people who were part of Middle Earth and it felt believable. Princess Disa was genuinely sweet and I can’t wait to see more of her and indeed more of the Dwarves in general. King Durin III is being played by Peter Mullan from Westworld, Harry Potter and lots of other things. I can’t wait to see how his character develops over the series.

Music is really great. I enjoyed Bear Mcreary’s score for Foundation and I’ve enjoyed what I’ve heard in these first two episodes so far so can’t wait for more.

I’m looking forward to seeing more of Gil Galad too, he looks some what similar to the actor who portrayed him in FOTR. I’m genuinely happy with how front and centre the elves are. Elrond is my favourite I think, at least from these first two eps. I feel Celebrimbor may have his moment to take his place as my favourite elf though. I’m aware of who Celebrimbor is and his importance to the mythology of Middle Earth so I’m excited to see where his character goes.

I’ve also seen House of The Dragon and it’s very dour, as GOT was. I find myself struggling to reconnect with it after GOT. I’ve not been sucked into the story as I have been with Rings of Power. Middle Earth is of course a more welcoming world, even with its perils, and that plays a big part in it. It remains to be seen which show actually turns out better for me.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Glad you like it Lindir...de gustibus non disputandum est.
If all the negative comments (not the hate stuff, just the critical reviews) are true, Tom Shippey was smart to exit the project, so as not to have his name anywhere on it.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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Yes I can imagine there will be changes to the lore that irk fans, much like what happened with The Hobbit and LOTR. It’s a shame that I can’t engage with those genuine criticisms because it’s being swamped by the hateful stuff. I’d be interested in seeing links if you have any to share. I don’t intend to refute their criticism as I can’t, as I haven’t read the source material, but I’d like to see what they think.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Go to Rotten Tomatoes Rings of Power.
Note the huge difference in what the critics say about it, and what the audience says about it.
This is not the first time that there has been a significant difference in what the critics rate a movie and what the audience rates it.
Was going to send you to the AMazon reviews but Amazon suspended all reviews of it (Wonder why? :D )
Read this one too https://cosmicbook.news/lord-rings-powe ... n-tomatoes

Most of the good reviews are by "Official movie reviewers" in Variety, NY Times, USA Today etc.
1) How many of them have actually read the Silmarillion?
2) Most of the critics are writing for "woke " journals and Newspapers so you can pretty well predict that they going to play up the "diversity" angle.
As one [newspaper/journal] critic said said: The world is different than when Tolkien wrote his stories and different even from the world PJ made his movies in .
Yep. So what has that got to do with bringing Tolkien's world to the [big] screen? Nothing.
Nothing, that is, unless the writer/producer/director wants to send a message (aka "virtue signaling").

Again, the changes in lore were minimal in PJ's LOTR, and the more major ones (there were two) got axed because of Fan (and reader) pushback.
The reason the Hobbit Movie did so dismally compared to the LOTR is precisely because there were so many non canonical changes/insertions/fabrications (the "Love triangle" being the most egregious one), and the over use of CGI.

Most everyone seems to agree that in the RoP the scenery, costumes/weapons are lush, veritable eye candy.
It's the writing and casting that fails, those two areas most susceptible to folks who have an "agenda".
Last edited by Deimos on Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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These two episodes have seemed entertaining to me, not great, but they are not unbearable to watch as other series today are... despite having a modern ideology, it is bearable.

Mind you, this is 99.9% made up, nothing Tolkien, completely non-canon. Although the non-canon half of the story could have happened because it doesn't contradict it, the other half directly contradicts the canon entirely.

I had hopes that the prologue would be the only faithful thing, but it was not like that, after the destruction of the trees... everything is invented, even what seemed like a canon in the trailers, is not. Literaly, only have 2 or 3 shots canon... for example, what seemed like the Feanor's oath, it is not, it is a group of elves (among them Finrod), who are going to fight all together against Melkor because the destruction of the trees, and nothing more, nothing at all, just elven ships going to battle against Melkor and a few shot of a battles, has already seen in the trailers. There is no great prologue like in the Fellowship, is a small prologue much more simplified.
Lindir wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 11:31 pm One of my favourite scenes was a small interaction between Elrond and Celebrimbor where they discuss the silmarils and Morgoth. I’ve still yet to read the Silmarillion so not sure how accurate it was, but I just really enjoyed the sequence.
Even that, what they say, is not canon, it is also invented.
Deimos wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:11 am Glad you like it Lindir...de gustibus non disputandum est.
If all the negative comments (not the hate stuff, just the critical reviews) are true, Tom Shippey was smart to exit the project, so as not to have his name anywhere on it.
Yes it was. I'm sure he was shocked/scared when he read the scripts.
Lindir wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:19 am Yes I can imagine there will be changes to the lore that irk fans, much like what happened with The Hobbit and LOTR. It’s a shame that I can’t engage with those genuine criticisms because it’s being swamped by the hateful stuff. I’d be interested in seeing links if you have any to share. I don’t intend to refute their criticism as I can’t, as I haven’t read the source material, but I’d like to see what they think.
I have read the books, and I can tell you that this is not like the adaptation of The Hobbit or LOTR, those adaptations have changes, yes, but in the end it is the story that is in the books. But this is not that, this is a fan film made by non-fans, because if it were made by fans, it would be much more canon. From Tolkien it has, the name in the title/credits, and the names of the characters and places... nothing more.

Honestly, you should read the Silmarilion, yes it is a dense and difficult book to read, but the story is amazing, personally I think it is better than LOTR and it is understood because it is the story that Tolkien really wanted to tell.

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XerachCruz wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:15 am ...Mind you, this is 99.9% made up, nothing Tolkien, completely non-canon. Although the non-canon half of the story could have happened because it doesn't contradict it, the other half directly contradicts the canon entirely.
...
I have read the books, and I can tell you that this is not like the adaptation of The Hobbit or LOTR, those adaptations have changes, yes, but in the end it is the story that is in the books. But this is not that, this is a fan film made by non-fans, because if it were made by fans, it would be much more canon. From Tolkien it has, the name in the title/credits, and the names of the characters and places... nothing more.
Somewhere I read that if you just view this whole [mess] (the writer used a more *ahem* colorful descriptive :laugh: ) as just another Saturday afternoon, B rated, popcorn "sword and sorcery" fantasy movie, you'll probably be OK with it.
But if you were expecting a Tolkien ME adventure this isn't it.
XerachCruz wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:15 am Honestly, you should read the Silmarilion, yes it is a dense and difficult book to read, but the story is amazing, personally I think it is better than LOTR and it is understood because it is the story that Tolkien really wanted to tell.
I know not a few people who think that exactly; to wit that The Silmarillion is a better story (stories) than the LOTR (as good as it is).
(btw... I am currently [re] reading the LOTR... am in the ROTK, and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields has just ended :horseback )

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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It's too bad that it is such a letdown**
The Cinemark theatres in the Phoenix metro area are doing single night one show screenings for each episode.
Had I liked what I had seen in the trailers (and what I read in the pre-screening reviews) I would have watched the series on a big screen.

I was reading all the commentary on the FoU Forum and some of the comments (quite a few actually) articulated what I have thought about this (after seeing trailers etc) "I wanted to like it but it just didn't impress me."
I watched the trailers thinking "Well here I am watching a movie that is supposed to be about JRRT's ME and ...it isn't."
Has some character with the same names, but the story is way out in left field.
Even on the lesser details they couldn't get it right (or didn't want to) like with Hobbits' ancestors.
The Harfoots, Stoors and Fallowhides, were still east of the Misty Mountains at that time, and maybe even farther east than that.
There would have been no interaction between the elves and "little folk" at all.

The compression of the timeline makes the mishmash even worse.
The whole thing makes me think of the “pasta doneness” test.
It’s as if the writers indiscriminately scooped up ME characters, names, events, remote lore, fan fic, mixed it all up and then threw the mess at a green screen to see what would stick, and what wouldn’t.

**Rotten Tomatoes still has this at 84/38 (Movie critics/ audience).
If RT were getting "review bombed" (like Amazon was) they would have shut down the review process, at least for the non-critics voting, so I'm going to assume the ratings are accurate.
So I'm not the only one who has a rather low opinion of it. And there is no way to assume that all the bad reviews are by "right-wing, racist haters".
If anything the people who liked it (if they are so numerous) should have been enough (?) to raise that number well above 50.

IMDB has it at 6.6 which is far lower than the abysmal Hobbit Movie(s) .
Oddly enough tho, IMDB rates the two individual episodes at 7.4 or 7.5, which is about where the Hobbit Movie is.
Not sure why there is a difference... even a composite (average) rating would be around 7.5 not 6.6

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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No, not every negative review is by racist ring wing bigots. However, the most vocal critics, for whatever reason, seem to be those people. I’ve found a few criticisms of how it changes the Middle Earth mythology and that’s fair enough, I get and accept their criticism. For me, it’s not so much of an issue but for them it is and that’s totally fine.

I don’t know what else to say. I feel completely at odds with the majority of Middle Earth fans right now, or at least what I feel to be the majority. The previous movies didn’t cause division like this. Some of the division lies at the hands of the creators but I think as a fan base, we have to, all of us, remain respectful. The inclusion of black actors, whilst it may not marry up with the world Tolkien envisioned - or maybe it does, I can’t speak on his behalf and none of us can - it doesn’t hurt it. It could be good or it could be downright awful with or without a mixed cast.

I don’t understand what this great “agenda” is. I hear it all the time. Gay people, black people, Asian people, all in it together with this big scary agenda and the mainstream media are on their side. But what’s it for? There’s nothing wrong with wanting to see yourself represented in stories. Being inclusive isn’t a plot to take over the world and force everyone to… what… exactly? Convert white people to black? Force people to be gay?

A lot of the criticism I see and not just in Middle Earth but in all fandoms is “well I don’t want to see it”. But people outside of the mass population don’t get to say things like that. We’re not motivated by a hateful position, but seeing yourself in stories and being important in stories makes you feel part of the society you’re supposedly part of.

Someone mentioned something similar earlier in this thread, that a lot of the movies we watch are not “culturally correct”. We’re watching movies about French people being played by Brits and Americans in KOH and also in The Last Duel, we’re watching a story set in ancient Egypt that should be filled with black and Syrian actors being played by white brits and Americans and an Australian in Exodus. Following that same logic you could take it to more of an extreme and say Vigo Mortensen, Elijah Wood, Cate Blanchette, Liv Tyler etc shouldn’t have been part of Middle Earth because they’re not British. Their ancestors may well have been but they’re no longer British so they can’t be part of Middle Earth.

The fact that Tolkien’s work can be enjoyed by other people and other cultures is not a bad thing. Whether you agree with it or not, representation does matter. If it didn’t, we wouldn’t be having this disagreement.

Criticise the show for its contradictions and changes of Tolkien’s mythos, but it’s unfair to criticise it for featuring black actors.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Lindir wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:57 am ...
Someone mentioned something similar earlier in this thread, that a lot of the movies we watch are not “culturally correct”. We’re watching movies about French people being played by Brits and Americans in KOH and also in The Last Duel, we’re watching a story set in ancient Egypt that should be filled with black and Syrian actors being played by white brits and Americans and an Australian in Exodus. Following that same logic you could take it to more of an extreme and say Vigo Mortensen, Elijah Wood, Cate Blanchette, Liv Tyler etc shouldn’t have been part of Middle Earth because they’re not British. Their ancestors may well have been but they’re no longer British so they can’t be part of Middle Earth.
....
Moderator alert.... you may not approve of what follows, but lindir asked and I am going to reply ..

Funny you should mention that about the original LOTR casting....
Have you seen the "Left wing hate" backlash against the casting of non Cuban JAmes Franco as Fidel Castro in the upcoming bio pic Alina of Cuba?

https://www.newsweek.com/james-franco-b ... ba-1731323
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyl ... es-franco/
https://www.indiewire.com/2022/08/john- ... 234748927/

You could go to Twitter and look up the hateful stuff being said.
That is just one example of the double standard that exists regarding diversity in casting

The "agenda" as I see it is that too many folks in the arts, in academia, in politics are "trying too hard" to prove how diverse they are.
Has no one noticed how much front and center positioning diversity promotion has occurred since 25 May 2020?
Where were all these "pro-diversity" writers, directors producers, actors, politicians before that?

And now they are shoehorning diversity into everything, and it has become the measure, the standard, of something (or someone).
Not diverse enough? You racist! CANCELED!
Non cuban playing a cuban? You racist! CANCELED!
Wanting ME characters portrayed the way Tolkien wrote them and not the way 21st C society thinks they should be portrayed? You racist! CANCELED!

Peter Jackson is pretty left wing but he kept the diversity itch somewhat contained (and also this was prior to May 2020), such that his three LOTR movies will be remembered and viewed and lauded long after RoP sinks into oblivion.

Anyway, that is what I see as constituting a good part of the objections (mine included ) to the RoP series.
And just for the record, I think I have quite a few more "diversity credentials" than most people.
Won't mention them here...PM me if you want more info.

Anyway, pax Lindir, I hope the remaining 48 episodes meet (or even exceed?) your expectations.
btw... how many times did you faint during the first two episodes? ;)

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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Lindir wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:57 am No, not every negative review is by racist ring wing bigots. However, the most vocal critics, for whatever reason, seem to be those people. I’ve found a few criticisms of how it changes the Middle Earth mythology and that’s fair enough, I get and accept their criticism. For me, it’s not so much of an issue but for them it is and that’s totally fine.

I don’t know what else to say. I feel completely at odds with the majority of Middle Earth fans right now, or at least what I feel to be the majority. The previous movies didn’t cause division like this. Some of the division lies at the hands of the creators but I think as a fan base, we have to, all of us, remain respectful. The inclusion of black actors, whilst it may not marry up with the world Tolkien envisioned - or maybe it does, I can’t speak on his behalf and none of us can - it doesn’t hurt it. It could be good or it could be downright awful with or without a mixed cast.
The inclusion doesn't bother me, what has made me not love the series is that the story isn't really Tolkien's. And most of the reviews and scores are surely because of that, because the series is not canon, he doesn't even come close.

If it were a book that almost no one had read, nothing would happen, but is Middle Earth, and who does not know the story from reading The Silmarillion and/or the Unfinished Tales, knows it because there are many YouTube channels, wikis, blogs, facebook channels... which divulge every detail of the story that tolkien created.

Just to give an example, Galadriel shouldn't be on a crusade looking for Sauron in Middle-earth and they change too much the personality of the character, and for bad... that alone already dismantles the series completely and there are a thousand other things. When I want to say that they have changed it for the worse, it is that they have made it more unbearable... In the LOTR adaptation, PJ changed Aragorn to make him less arrogant so that everyone would like him., it is a change, but it is a smart change.. Here with Galadriel they have done it backwards, they have made a character a bit unbearable, when it wasn't.

Probably if you had read the Silmarillion, and knew and loved that story before seeing the episodes, you would surely be on the other side of the fandom you comment on, or at least you would understand their position.

That almost everywhere people end up discussing inclusion is because some of those who criticize the series, but especially those who defend it, end up diverting the subject to that almost always, but I'm sure that this has not caused the rejection. If you look at La Casa del Dragón, there is change of color of characters and it is quite feminist, but it has not had that rejection, not because its fandom is less racist, but because the original story is respected and the script is good, but in ROP everything is he invents contradicting what Tolkien wrote. That is why the previous films did not cause this rejection, because although it had changes and additions, in the end it was still the story that Tolkien created, in ROP is not.

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Watched the first episode last night. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Hopefully watching the second episode tonight.

Enjoyed it far more than House of the Dragon.

Honestly, given legal constraints the writers likely had in what they could include, it's looking to be a solid show.

Just my take.

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I have indeed seen it Deimos and it irks me also. A part can be played by anyone. Eddie Redmayne apologising for playing a trans character also wound me up. Exodus isn’t the greatest film ever but I enjoy it even with its all white cast, same as Prince of Persia. But I’d also happily watch a movie about ancient Egypt or Persia with a more ethnically correct cast.

I think we actually see a little more eye to eye than I initially thought. It’s very easy to get bogged down in this stuff but you’re right that sometimes there is this odd drive to be diverse for the sake of diversity. Diversity isn’t wrong, but outside of the arts there are odd things like positive discrimination in the workplace.. I’ve voiced this concern before to my friends, but I hope that I’ve never gotten a job simply for being gay. I’d hate to think that. Positive discrimination is meant to be illegal but as with regular discrimination, it still happens, sadly.

I get it, it’s not for you Deimos, and also Xerach I hold no ill will against you or indeed anyone here. I realise I’m barking up the wrong tree like a misguided and somewhat dumbfounded puppy. Like before I needed to put my thoughts and anxieties somewhere I could voice them without being ridiculed or hounded.

I have the Silmarillion ready to read but I keep putting it off but I will do it one day.

For the record I did faint a few times, Deimos. Lots of elves and indeed many of those long pointy things we all love caught my eye and got me hot under the collar 😂 I do hope UC can take a stab at a few of them.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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GuardianWolf wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:17 am Watched the first episode last night. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Hopefully watching the second episode tonight.

Enjoyed it far more than House of the Dragon.
I have also liked ROP more than House of the Dragon, I have never liked Game of Thrones too much (although I have seen it in its entirety), but its palace conspiracies have always bored me a little/quite a lot. I have simply named it to compare the reaction of the fans.
Lindir wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:58 am I get it, it’s not for you Deimos, and also Xerach I hold no ill will against you or indeed anyone here. I realise I’m barking up the wrong tree like a misguided and somewhat dumbfounded puppy. Like before I needed to put my thoughts and anxieties somewhere I could voice them without being ridiculed or hounded.
I have not said that ROP is not for me, but rather that it has entertained me but I have not loved it, I hope it improves, it returns a little to the canon path and makes me change my mind. But if I had liked it as the LOTR trilogy (which I also saw after reading the books), I would have already seen the episodes more than once (with the movies I went to the cinema more than 4 times with each one to see them). That ROP don't respect the canon at all doesn't allow me to enjoy ROP in that way... I'll watch it (unless it becomes unbearable later), but since I watch other fantasy series/movies, once every episode, and not I think I bought anything related to this series.
Lindir wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:58 am I have the Silmarillion ready to read but I keep putting it off but I will do it one day.
I hope you'll be encouraged to read it soon and enjoy it... you have to take your time to read it... it took to me a couple of tries (although it cannot be said that I am a great reader, it will surely be easier for you), but after reading it, it worth, it's the best story/stories I've ever read or see. After you can expand three of these greats histories with the three books solo stories (the Children of Hurin, the Fall of Gondolin and Beren y Luthien).

I dream that one day I can see one/some adaptations as it deserves for all those stories... I thought ROP would bring that closer, but after watching the first few episodes, it seems like it's just as far... if not further. I suppose that in part that disappointment also influences my opinion of ROP.

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Actually, like XerachCruz it's the deviation from canon that was the greatest disappointment, to the extent that I was gritting my teeth because of it.
The shoehorned diversity was just an added irritant.
Had they stuck to canon more (much more!) my other complaints might have sunk to insignificance. Might have.
Let's not forget the bad writing with respect to dialogue, and bad acting.
The acting reminded me of Hayden Christiansen's altho' in that instance it could be blamed on the director, George Lucas.
Perhaps that is the case here; I am unfamilar with the director.
Bad writing is just that. PJ avoided that (not that he is a bad writer) by using much dialogue straight from the books.
(No one can accuse JRRT of being a bad writer. Sacrilege! :D )

So, my objections for disliking RoP from most significant to least are:
--Deviation from (or even absence of) canon
--Bad writing/acting... I honestly don't know which one is worse (in any movie).
Experiencing either one always make me cringe, and for the record I do not let PJs' LOTR off the hook for its several cringe worthy scenes.
--The updating to 21st C. social expectations, evident mostly in the shoehorned diversity which, again, in any dramatization causes me to :rolleye: more than anything else.

So, as I mentioned above (in agreement with what I read elsewhere) if one just views this as just another Saturday afternoon, popcorn "sword and sorcery" fantasy B-movie, it's passable. But those movies are generally ones I don't waste my time on.

I like the scenery and the buildings and other structures.
If this ever comes out on disc (in whatever latest and greatest techy iteration) I might watch it but turn off the sound (not a big fan of the music), and FF through all the scenes with dialog and acting and just take in the scenery and long vista shots :D.
That might be all it takes to transport me to a ME that looks more like Tolkien's.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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I watched both episodes over the weekend. I have known for a long time now that they were not even going to attempt to follow the canon as told in the LOTR appendices (which is all they had the rights to), so I went into it with an open mind and tried to just think of this as something new or an alternate ME history.

Parts of the show looked great, parts did not, but it did not feel much like ME to me. Most of the invented stuff just came across more like a generic fantasy show, as I have heard others say. I got the same vibe I had when I watched Amazon's Wheel of Time. The dialogue was a bit 'eh'. It's not terrible, but some of it was very ham fisted and forced, like they were trying to make it sound Tolkien-ish, but without any real purpose. I'm not connecting to any of the characters yet, but it's early in the show. I don't care for these depictions of Galadriel or Elrond much, but maybe there are some long planned character arcs for both that will make them end up more like the characters we know from Tolkien.

The show seemed to jump around to different storylines a bit haphazardly, and frankly, some of the plots felt silly and dumb. Not all, but I felt a lot of cringe while watching. This is just the first few episodes though, so it's like watching the first 25 minutes of a two hour movie. Hard to judge without seeing the rest.

Props to the show's designers though. There are a few frames here and there that were stunning and looked like they were right out of Tolkien, like the shot of Valinor and the two trees, and a lot of the sets. Some of the flashbacks looked really good too, but those were few and far between. They would flash by, and in my mind I am thinking, that's the story I would have liked to see. Why did we not get a proper prologue with some awesome scenes like that to firmly set they show's place in ME history at the start? That would have really helped ground it.

Overall, I was kind of bored. My wife felt the same. As I was watching, I could not help but thinking how much better this could have been it if they had just called it something else and used different names for the characters. They are just making up their own thing anyway, so they should have just gone for it all the way.
KRDS

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I've watched the first 2 episodes and was entertained and am intrigued. Obviously its not 100% canon and never will be. These are nothing more than adaptations taken from an overall lore, if someone can't accept that, then this isnt the show for them. No matter what, JRRT's works are still available to read and those will never change. I know its sacrilege to say, but JRRT wasn't the greatest writer known to man and he changed his own stories more than once, if he'd have lived longer, no telling what else he might have tweaked or changed. I loved LOTR but forced myself to read the Sil, to be honest, reading the Sil is like reading the Christian bible for leisure ( not dogging either, thats just how it reads to me) and some of his other books and stories were boring to me, but I read them to know the lore.

Some of his characters were dumb, I will die on the hill that says PJ improved LOTR by removing Tom Bombadil and the Scouring of the Shire out of the narrative.

My take on adaptations (or anything for that matter), if you dont like it, move on, stop letting it live rent free in your head forever and let other people enjoy it. I think the Bachelor and Bachelorette are stupid TV shows, but I don't watch them every week just to get more p*ssed off about them and complain online, I let those people enjoy them and go about my business. Yes I know there's no canon for reality TV, but the point stands, if someone doesn't like it move on.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Lindir wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 5:42 am
BladeCollector wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 4:47 am I know its sacrilege to say, but JRRT wasn't the greatest writer known to man
Uh oh... you better run BC, I can hear Deimos and Val’s blood boiling :crazy:

:D
Well, I would agree he's not "the greatest writer known to man" if one is lumping together all genres... literature, biography, auto biography, poetry drama etc. And of course you'd have to specify the language of the works.
So... I do know that in England back in the 90s readers voted LOTR the best novel ever written.
And it consistently ranks in the top ten novels in England.
I would say that in the fantasy/imaginative genre (in the English language) Tolkien is definitely in the top ten.
If I were to include American writers I'd say Hawthorne is up there (his ghost stories), and Ray Bradbury, and of course, E.A. Poe.
All excellent writers of the fantasy genre.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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Soooooo...Val, I saw your recent (most recent?) post over at FoU...the long one.
I guess things got pretty heated over there....folks keep referring (rather ominously) to "Page 65".

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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Deimos wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:05 am Soooooo...Val, I saw your recent (most recent?) post over at FoU...the long one.
I guess things got pretty heated over there....folks keep referring (rather ominously) to "Page 65".
Yeah... the member that prompted me to make that long post as a response has privately referred to it as the Great Kinslaying of pg 65.

Not one of that forum's proudest moments. Our Ronin here was part of that offensive mess too and left when I did as well, although his patience is far greater than mine so he's returned. For my part, I've spent about all the energy I care to in discussing this show, which is already far more than it deserves. It may use a name or two that you'll recognize, but it has little to nothing to do with the Middle-earth that Tolkien wrote about.

'Nuff said.
This Space for Rent

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N2darkness wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:39 pm Narsil?

Can someone tell me why there are many similarities to PJ's LOTR trilogy, but not exact? Is it a licencing issue? or just trying to be familiar, but have there own take?

NarsilROP.jpg
As far as I know, they could only replicate some of the designs of PJ´s movies, but not all of them and also they could not show anything right off the movies. But...Amazon showed a Balrog up...so, I dunno.

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N2darkness wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 6:39 pm Narsil?

Can someone tell me why there are many similarities to PJ's LOTR trilogy, but not exact? Is it a licencing issue? or just trying to be familiar, but have there own take?
Yes, looks a lot like Narsil from the movies, it is evident that it is. I haven't seen the 4th episode yet, I'll watch it this afternoon/evening. :)

I seem to remember that I read somewhere, I don't remember exactly where, that they said that they couldn't use the exact designs for the movies due to WB rights.

Also in an article or an interview with the showrunners I remember that they said tthey wanted that everything, even if it's new, yet feel familiar to movie fans. I guess they have tried to get as close as possible to the designs of the movies in many things, but without being exactly the same and getting into legal problems with WB.

As comments StrongWithGod, the Balrog also it is almost the same, but it changes the shape of the horns and other details so that it is not exactly the same.

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Other than places or objects that are specifically described in the LOTR books, Amazon has no rights to any designs seen in the LOTR movies.

They are clearly trying to knock off certain designs without exactly copying. In this case it looks a bit like a cheap China knockoff of Narsil. I would rather they had just designed something new and not even attempted these sorta-looks-like designs from the movies.
KRDS

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Some of the other Numenorian blades they’ve designed are unique and different. It is odd that they have more knock off designs in places like with Aeglos and this Narsil look a like. Narsil wouldn’t have been forged yet though would it?

Ar-Pharazon’s sword looks beautiful - we saw a small glimpse in episode 4. Down for that if anyone ever gets to produce replicas from the show.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Lindir wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:32 am Narsil wouldn’t have been forged yet though would it?
It was forged in the First Age, so it would have been around. It really does not matter though, as they are not really following the Tolkien lore or timeline at all. It just some names being used and a few generalizations of little bit's of Tolkien lore sprinkled here and there. I have forced myself to think of this as having nothing to do with Tolkien just to watch it.
KRDS

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Nasnandos wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:28 am I have forced myself to think of this as having nothing to do with Tolkien just to watch it.
That's far more effort than I've made. Watching a tv series should be fun, not forced in any way. The fact that this one attempts to masquerade itself as something that it's not while claiming that it's superior to the original was enough for me to flip it the ol' bird and walk the other way.
This Space for Rent

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Nasnandos wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:28 am
Lindir wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:32 am Narsil wouldn’t have been forged yet though would it?
It was forged in the First Age, so it would have been around. It really does not matter though, as they are not really following the Tolkien lore or timeline at all. It just some names being used and a few generalizations of little bit's of Tolkien lore sprinkled here and there. I have forced myself to think of this as having nothing to do with Tolkien just to watch it.
I just consider it a "work inspired by the work of Tolkien"
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Valkrist wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:36 am
Nasnandos wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:28 am I have forced myself to think of this as having nothing to do with Tolkien just to watch it.
That's far more effort than I've made. Watching a tv series should be fun, not forced in any way. The fact that this one attempts to masquerade itself as something that it's not while claiming that it's superior to the original was enough for me to flip it the ol' bird and walk the other way.
You replied to Kit as I was replying.

For me, the TV series is fun, so far, its entertaining. Its not that I am forcing myself to like it. But like I said in the reply above, I consider it what it is "a work inspired by the work of Tolkien." I put it along the lines of say, the MCU, yes, comics have been rebooted and retconned for a long time, but the MCU movies, take bits and pieces from the comic lore and make adaptations, I still find them enjoyable, for the most part. Still cheesed off about Fox blundering Phoenix, twice.

Even with historical shows, they take events and timelines and truncate them so it can fit into a narrative, Vikings was really enjoyable to me, but not historically accurate at all, or the Crown, etc.

Treating RoP as an "inspired by" work and not translating the book to screen 100% or a prequel to PJs movies, for me, makes it a nice saturday show to watch. But that's my take.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Valkrist wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:36 am That's far more effort than I've made. Watching a tv series should be fun, not forced in any way.
I know, but I am having to force myself to watch it at this point, as I am being paid to.

Same with that Wheel of Time show. It was not my cup of tea and I would have given it a pass just a few episodes in if I was just watching for fun. I had to slog through it all because of work.
KRDS

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Nasnandos wrote: I know, but I am having to force myself to watch it at this point, as I am being paid to.

Same with that Wheel of Time show. It was not my cup of tea and I would have given it a pass just a few episodes in if I was just watching for fun. I had to slog through it all because of work.
I couldn't get passed the 4th episode of Wheel of Time, even getting "paid" to watch them would feel like a waste of time.
Nasnandos wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:07 am Other than places or objects that are specifically described in the LOTR books, Amazon has no rights to any designs seen in the LOTR movies.

They are clearly trying to knock off certain designs without exactly copying. In this case it looks a bit like a cheap China knockoff of Narsil. I would rather they had just designed something new and not even attempted these sorta-looks-like designs from the movies.
Totally agree, these look like knock-offs. I know Peter Lyon worked on these as his name is in the credits, but such a departure from what I'd expect.

Re: The Rings Of Power

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Nasnandos wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:18 am
N2darkness wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 6:23 am Totally agree, these look like knock-offs. I know Peter Lyon worked on these as his name is in the credits, but such a departure from what I'd expect.
Lyon would have just been making the designs he was given, so I don't fault him in any way.
I should have phrased that better. I don't fault him, or anyone at Weta for that matter. I know it's a paying job and I'm sure the quality is there. It's the design decisions I question.

Many people I have followed for years and respect are attached to this project. You can have all the best people in the world attached to a project and have it not turn out great.

Re: The Rings Of Power

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Levidas wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:03 am Following your comments, I found this article that pretty much sums up what I feel as I watch the show: https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2 ... e-writing/
Oh how I would love if the folks at FoU that seem to lack any capacity for critical thinking when it comes to this show would only read that and perhaps reflect a little on its truths.

But nah... why bother? They'd just tear it down like any other reasonable and well-constructed criticism and instead call the reviewer a racist and misogynist, because that's a lot easier.
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