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I read the Article that was linked. At the end, the writer explained what it takes to write a good story and to write it well.
It.Will.Never. Happen.
And let me tell you why...
I am a [new] member of TheTolkien Forum.
The forum has been around for a while (2004?) and was started with the idea of discussing Tolkien's written works.

That it was begun in 2004 leads me to believe that Tolkien purists got together to promote the books over the movies (ROTK having just been released), that reading Tolkien is so much more rewarding than watching the movies.
Alas, as Gildor told Frodo, “The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out” ; and so a Rings of Power sub-forum was started, to be added to the other "wide-world" media versions of Tolkien.

There are a good many members in the Forum whose only exposure to Tolkien was via PJ and/or the Amazon Abomination (hereafter A-A).
To their credit some are now attempting to read Tolkien, perhaps to participate in those discussions of the written works, or maybe to get more background of the lore (and also understand the vehement objections to the A-A).

And this what I'm reading in the comments by these members, almost all of whom are under 30.
"It is too difficult to read."
"The sentences are too long."
"Tolkien takes too long to explain things."
"There's too much 'filler/fluff".
He takes too long to get to the action"
" I hated the first part of the Fellowship...he should have just started the story at Bree."
"I don't read the poems, they are a waste of time."
"The section with Tom Bombadil was stupid and and didn't further the story."
"Tolkien could have used a better editor to get rid of all the useless parts."

These members are of the same generation who are pathetically/laughably attempting to write a screenplay(s) for Tolkien's works.
Short attention spans, impatience, inability to comprehend both polysyllabic words and complex sentences.
Never mind setting the stage for a story, or character development that is more than just a two dimensional paper cut-out.
They all may be nice people, people with above average native intelligence; but being nice and intelligent doesn't make one a good, or even passable, writer.
To be a good writer you have to read good writing.
Last edited by Deimos on Sun Sep 18, 2022 7:05 am, edited 2 times in total.


"Unless you're prepared to surrender everything, don't surrender anything."

When seconds matter, it's reassuring to know that the police are only minutes away.

"Only the paranoid survive."

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How sadly right you are.

One of the arguments regularly trotted out by the staunchest defenders of this show is how it will introduce so many more people to Tolkien and get them to want to read the books, and so that's good and therefore book defenders should just shut up and take the win.

Well, the unfortunate counter to that is not only all that you just mentioned, but also the fact that since what Amazon has put out doesn't even remotely resemble anything that Tolkien wrote, those driven to the books in the hopes of finding more of what they saw on screen are in for a rude awakening. It's as if all that you've ever been fed and learned to like are turnips, and when you suddenly have some steak and Lobster put in front you, you don't know what to do with it and dislike the taste because you lack the ability to appreciate it since all your palate can handle are turnips.

The end result? More people will be put off by Tolkien than drawn into his literary world as a result of this drivel. The movies, on the other hand, had more success with this because Jackson made a decent attempt at preserving the story, dialogue, and spirit of Tolkien as much as he could. You can recognize the author within the frames of those movies. The Amazon show almost seems to take preverse pride in doing the exact opposite.
This Space for Rent

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I’m starting to have doubts, big ones. I enjoy it well enough, and it looks pretty. But I don’t like the way Galadriel is written. I was unsure about the actress but the actress is fine it’s the way her character is written. It’s odd that she’s written as a teenager and not a thousands of years old elf. I still think Elrond is my favourite and he’s the most endearing.

The thing that did it big time for me was in episode four when the Numenoreans were complaining about elves coming to steal their jobs. It felt so very much on the nose and I’m betting it betrays the themes of the genuine conflict between Numenoreans and Elves. There are moments in the show that are incredibly beautiful, like Disa singing, Elrond talking to Celebrimbor about the Silmarils, and then there are a lot of parts that are incredibly dumb.

I think the pendulum has swung a little too much the other way. There’s a drive to be overly positive about the show, but it’s blocking genuine criticism. I’ve read people saying it’s better than the Hobbit movies. The Hobbit movies certainly have their flaws but they’re better written.

I’m viewing it like BC does though, I fully get from the things I’ve read that it’s not accurate at all and should be viewed as an inspired by and not a literal interpretation of Middle Earth, but I acknowledge it could have been better. Probably, a lot better.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Lindir wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 7:42 am There’s a drive to be overly positive about the show, but it’s blocking genuine criticism.
When Amazon puts a ban on allowing reviews of the show on its own site and the others they own, you have to wonder what's really behind that. One guess.

Bad review? Trolls review bombing. Must be. Has to be.

Good review? True fans. Must be. Has to be.

50% of the so-called fans of this show = a lot of people getting paid $$$ to write superficial reviews about Rings of Power that turn out to be nothing but a word salad describing only the "lavish visuals; incredible budget; and that watching this show will change your life". Ok.

Not one bit of objective analysis of the storyline, characters, acting, plot development, lore, etc... in essence, the things that really matter. Nope.
This Space for Rent

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Valkrist wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:30 am
Levidas wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:03 am Following your comments, I found this article that pretty much sums up what I feel as I watch the show: https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2 ... e-writing/
Oh how I would love if the folks at FoU that seem to lack any capacity for critical thinking when it comes to this show would only read that and perhaps reflect a little on its truths.

But nah... why bother? They'd just tear it down like any other reasonable and well-constructed criticism and instead call the reviewer a racist and misogynist, because that's a lot easier.
Yup, completely agree with you on that.
I've tried to make myself clear there, sometimes, but with little to no success... Nobody really seems to care; well, let them be happy (I guess :huh: )

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Deimos wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:35 am

And this what I'm reading in the comments by these members, almost all of whom are under 30.
"It is too difficult to read."
"The sentences are too long."
"Tolkien takes too long to explain things."
"There's too much 'filler/fluff".
He takes too long to get to the action"
" I hated the first part of the Fellowship...he should have just started the story at Bree."
"I don't read the poems, they are a waste of time."
"The section with Tom Bombadil was stupid and and didn't further the story."
"Tolkien could have used a better editor to get rid of all the useless parts."
Most of that is true, to me, and I am WELL over under 30. Maybe in the written world, Tom Bombadil might be considered interesting. On the screen he would have have been perceived as "what the hell, why doesnt this dude take the ring to Mordor??" The scouring of the shire is another example... imagine you're not a Tolkien expert or even remotely aware of the lore... you're watching a 3+ hour movie, ring has been destroyed, we've spent a LONG time wrapping up the story lines, then the Hobbits get back to the shire and THERE'S MORE conflict?!

Its some of the same criticisms I have of Robert Jordan and Wheel of Time. I'm sorry, I dont need to know EVERY SINGLE TIME Nynaeve tugs her braid or her or Egwene adjust their skirts, etc... or what every single stew was made from. I get some of it is character building but after a time its just redundant and makes the books longer and more drawn out and boring. If you're gonna write a 14 book story, with 800-1000 pages a book, dont fill it with fluff to boost your word count. This is why I rarely give my students a page number on papers. If you can answer the prompt in 2 pages or 3 pages, why am I going to make you write me 5-7 pages in an essay, when I am still going to get 2-3 pages of good stuff and 4 pages of filler and the same thing written over and over?
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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1)I said under 30 and under because I was giving those over 30 the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps I was mistaken ...
2) I am talking about the written word, not the transposition of the text to the movie.
3) And I seriously doubt that Tolkien wrote all that he did and as he did "to boost the word count". If you read his Letters (many of which are exchanges between him and his publisher) you will see that he was a very meticulous and conscientious mediaeval scholar and linguist.
4) I stand by every word I wrote in my criticism... Sorry if that doesn't sit well with you
5) I agree that Wheel of Time was horribly written, Robert Jordan wrote "purple prose" and reading it was a slog.I gave up one quarter of the way into it.

And just to throw more gasoline on this... most popular books written are of "Dick and Jane" format, scaled up for "Adults" (you may define that term any way you like).
The format is: structurally simple sentences that are basically a subject, "action" verb, and direct object, with a lot of purple prose descriptives.
As Val noted,if you feed people only turnips they will have no stomach for anything better.
Good writing raises the bar...a lot.
And just like sports, you have to practice at something, you have to challenge yourself to do better, to get beyond the turnips.
If all someone wants to read is Dick and Jane for college grads, OK, but it should never be presented as anything better than that.
Last edited by Deimos on Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:51 am, edited 2 times in total.


"Unless you're prepared to surrender everything, don't surrender anything."

When seconds matter, it's reassuring to know that the police are only minutes away.

"Only the paranoid survive."

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Levidas wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:03 am Following your comments, I found this article that pretty much sums up what I feel as I watch the show: https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2 ... e-writing/
Totally agree with the article, except for one thing, I think I have understood that the writer of the article likes the Harfoots, for me it is the worst story of the series, completely bland and expendable characters... although the really worst for me of the show is still Galadriel.

With the same opinion as this Forbes article, I have read many other articles, both from the international press and also from my country. I appreciate that not all media outlets just publish superficial paid advertorials and have real criticism.
Valkrist wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:30 am Oh how I would love if the folks at FoU that seem to lack any capacity for critical thinking when it comes to this show would only read that and perhaps reflect a little on its truths.

But nah... why bother? They'd just tear it down like any other reasonable and well-constructed criticism and instead call the reviewer a racist and misogynist, because that's a lot easier.
Yes, a critical debate is impossible there, every time I comment on something critical there, those who like the series directly ignore it (and I am aware that many shy away from berating me for the warning on page 65).

There are simply too many people who have not read the books and are happy with any story with LOTR in the title... and some who say they know all the books but do not care that the show has nothing to do with it. Most are content to see shiny/pretty things, they are satisfied with just a couple of irrelevant Easter Eggs in the background.

Those Easter Eggs have the opposite effect on me. I'm watching it trying to separate it completely in my mind from Tolkien's work, as if lobotomized, I try to put my mind blank and forget all my knowledge about Tolkien's work, but those Easter Eggs and the few references by way of speech that are true to canon, it just reminds me of what the series should be and isn't.

This fourth episode seemed a little better than the previous one, but I think because there were no Harfoots and because the part of Khazad-dûm for me is the best of the series. Galadriel still seems unbearable to me, and the best thing about Numenor's part of this episode is that they put her in the cell, too bad they didn't put a gag on her to avoid more immature impertinence and leave her there forgotten for the rest of the show.

I can't wait for the writers to change her because of the criticism she is receiving from many specialized media (I don't know if she had already commented here before on what the actress told the Hollywood Reporter):

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv ... 235215660/

...yeah sure Morfydd, making Galadriel more humble and bearable was in the character arc plans from the beginning. :roll:

I guess it will happen in the second season if they didn't start shooting it before the wave of criticism.

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XerachCruz wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:53 am ....I can't wait for the writers to change her because of the criticism she is receiving from many specialized media (I don't know if she had already commented here before on what the actress told the Hollywood Reporter):

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv ... 235215660/

...yeah sure Morfydd, making Galadriel more humble and bearable was in the character arc plans from the beginning. :roll:

I guess it will happen in the second season if they didn't start shooting it before the wave of criticism.
What fun it must be as a screenplay writer answerable only to beancounters.
Unpopular, badly written character? No problem! Let's just do a 180 remake and, voila! She's likeable, lovable, adorable.
And so the doll to be made in her likeness and marketed to 9 year old girls who aspire to be a warrior princess will fly off the shelves.


"Unless you're prepared to surrender everything, don't surrender anything."

When seconds matter, it's reassuring to know that the police are only minutes away.

"Only the paranoid survive."

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Deimos wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:27 am 1)I said under 30 and under because I was giving those over 30 the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps I was mistaken ...
2) I am talking about the written word, not the transposition of the text to the movie.
3) And I seriously doubt that Tolkien wrote all that he did and as he did "to boost the word count". If you read his Letters (many of which are exchanges between him and his publisher) you will see that he was a very meticulous and conscientious mediaeval scholar and linguist.
4) I stand by every word I wrote in my criticism... Sorry if that doesn't sit well with you
5) I agree that Wheel of Time was horribly written, Robert Jordan wrote "purple prose" and reading it was a slog.I gave up one quarter of the way into it.

And just to throw more gasoline on this... most popular books written are of "Dick and Jane" format, scaled up for "Adults" (you may define that term any way you like).
The format is: structurally simple sentences that are basically a subject, "action" verb, and direct object, with a lot of purple prose descriptives.
As Val noted,if you feed people only turnips they will have no stomach for anything better.
Good writing raises the bar...a lot.
And just like sports, you have to practice at something, you have to challenge yourself to do better, to get beyond the turnips.
If all someone wants to read is Dick and Jane for college grads, OK, but it should never be presented as anything better than that.

There's nothing wrong with different types of writing. Sometimes people want mindless entertainment, in literature and in the visual medium. Not everything has to be a mental workout, there are some books and movies that are mentally exhausting to read and watch, there are other times you just want to be entertained.

I'm not saying Tolkien boosted his word count on purpose, in that day and age and for world building that was what was done, but it doesn't mean every detail NEEDED to be there for the story, because it didnt. Doesn't make it right or wrong, he wrote the story he wanted to write (and rewrote certain parts multiple times.) If it wasn't for Peter Jackson's movies, I would have never discovered Tolkien or would have a lot later. I never HEARD of lord of the rings until PJs movies came out.

As with any book to TV/Movie translation, some will be bad, some will be great, some will be better than others, but the key is no matter how many times a book or movie is translated/adapted/rebooted, the original is still the original, new versions don't negate.

They can cast 100 people to be Captain Kirk, but William Shatner IS Captain Kirk, TOS and the TOS movies are THE Captain Kirk movies, the Abram-verse doesnt take that away. I can either watch those and pretend they are completely stand alone, or go with Abrams narrative that it is an alternate universe, but in the end, TOS still exists.

As far as Tolkien and Rings of Power, if its not someone's thing then thats 100% awesome. I dont like the walking dead, but for all I care, the walking dead can run for 100 seasons, if other people like it, let them enjoy it.

There are so many people that want something cancelled or taken off the air because they dont like it.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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You know the Aesop fable of The Fox and The Grapes?
Short version: A fox spots a cluster of grapes, nearly bursting from ripeness, hanging from an arbor.
He thinks they would be pretty tasty, so he leaps up to snatch the grapes, but just misses by a few inches.
He leaps again, and again he just misses. After another few failed attempts he gives up.
As he trots off he says to himself: I don't really care that I couldn't reach them... they were probably sour anyway.

I agree that some people ( a lot? most?) don't want "cerebral entertainment". There are times that I don't.
But the lit that requires "heavy lifting" is out there and has been for centuries.
And it has endured for centuries because maybe, just maybe, it says something worth learning, worth knowing about the human condition.
And some of it will require effort to read it.

If someone can't get through Tolkien or Hemingway or Capote or Dickens or Woolf or Cather or Mailer or Nabakov or Dostoyevsky or Faulkner or Hardy or London or Joyce or Poe or Hawthorne or Swift or Malory or Chaucer or Sophocles or Homer, the failure lies not with the author "who could have used a better editor to get rid of the filler".
The reader is at fault because he has never (for whatever reason) attempted or been challenged to read anything that was written above 4th grade level.
Most people (the 67% under the major part of the bell curve) read at about a 4th grade level...(you can look it up).

But it is these folks who, when they attempted to read Tolkien (as I first mentioned way above in the thread), and were flabby in their reading skills and so couldn't do the heavy lifting, blame the author saying that he doesn't know how to write, and so (like the fox) they walk away, justified in their own minds that JRRT isn't worth reading, when it is they who have failed to grasp the prize.

It is a sad situation, and those folks, and all like them, are the poorer for it.


"Unless you're prepared to surrender everything, don't surrender anything."

When seconds matter, it's reassuring to know that the police are only minutes away.

"Only the paranoid survive."

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Sadly what you say is true @Deimos.

Even some of my friends and acquaintances who are around in their 40s like me, have those comments and only put up with current light reading...or some no reading at all.

I personally know that I am not a great reader, more time goes than I would like between books, and I have not read too many different authors. But for me, if is difficult to read a book because its writing is not simple and easy to digest as in modern works, it really challenges me and I try harder to enjoy it, and as I adapt to his writing, I enjoy it more.

I know that the limitation is in me, because I do not maintain the habit of reading over time, I can't think of blaming the authors.
Valkrist wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:54 am How sadly right you are.

One of the arguments regularly trotted out by the staunchest defenders of this show is how it will introduce so many more people to Tolkien and get them to want to read the books, and so that's good and therefore book defenders should just shut up and take the win.

Well, the unfortunate counter to that is not only all that you just mentioned, but also the fact that since what Amazon has put out doesn't even remotely resemble anything that Tolkien wrote, those driven to the books in the hopes of finding more of what they saw on screen are in for a rude awakening. It's as if all that you've ever been fed and learned to like are turnips, and when you suddenly have some steak and Lobster put in front you, you don't know what to do with it and dislike the taste because you lack the ability to appreciate it since all your palate can handle are turnips.

The end result? More people will be put off by Tolkien than drawn into his literary world as a result of this drivel. The movies, on the other hand, had more success with this because Jackson made a decent attempt at preserving the story, dialogue, and spirit of Tolkien as much as he could. You can recognize the author within the frames of those movies. The Amazon show almost seems to take preverse pride in doing the exact opposite.
I think the same, most of those who turn to the books looking for explanations about the show, will not find it, and end up more with frustration than with love for Tolkien's work... it has no comparison with the LOTR movies, where the differences of the telling were few and the explanations about the doubts are in the canon.

Some friends of mine who have read LOTR but not the Silmarillion (because they have not wanted because some have in at home) and are watching ROP have called me asking questions about the show. Questions like "Who is Adar?" or "Who is the man with the meteorite?" and many other things... and the most I have been able to say to them is... "They will be who the writers of the show want them to be, because none of that is in the books."

I think reading a book wanting to know its history is not the same as reading it looking for specific answers and in the end not finding it... surely many will not keep a good memory of the time dedicated to it.
Lindir wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 7:42 am I think the pendulum has swung a little too much the other way. There’s a drive to be overly positive about the show, but it’s blocking genuine criticism. I’ve read people saying it’s better than the Hobbit movies. The Hobbit movies certainly have their flaws but they’re better written.
Yes, as you comment, there is an irrational positivism towards the show. As much as all wish new content from Middle-earth, I wish it too, I don't understand how can't be aware of the flaws in the series. I see true blindness... it could be said that there is a toxic positivism (since they like to use the term toxic today for everything)

There are many things that I like and they all have their flaws, and talking about this flaws and imagining how it could be better seems enriching to me.
Levidas wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:15 am Yup, completely agree with you on that.
I've tried to make myself clear there, sometimes, but with little to no success... Nobody really seems to care; well, let them be happy (I guess :huh: )
Yes, you are one of the few who try to create a bit of a critical spirit in FoU, but the truth is there is no way.
Deimos wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:10 am What fun it must be as a screenplay writer answerable only to beancounters.
Unpopular, badly written character? No problem! Let's just do a 180 remake and, voila! She's likeable, lovable, adorable.
And so the doll to be made in her likeness and marketed to 9 year old girls who aspire to be a warrior princess will fly off the shelves.
That's right, Galadriel will surely change radically, it seems that the writers needed a deluge of criticism to realize that their poor writing of the character did not make her seem like a strong and independent woman as they intended, but an insufferable immature and impulsive young who did not knows how to behave.

This shows that they are not only bad writers, but also that their arrogance and lack of self-criticism is disproportionate.

Yes, surely they probably won't even give an explanation for the change and it will seem that Galadriel, in addition to being unbearable, is bipolar. But still, if they do, I'm not complaining, because if Galadriel starts behaving like Galadriel, the plot of Numenor (if her continues in this splot) will become at least decent and enjoyable, like the plot of Khazad-dûm.

And the thing about toys is something inevitable nowadays and it doesn't bother me either... and the truth is that at my age I also buy a few. :P
BladeCollector wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:00 am As far as Tolkien and Rings of Power, if its not someone's thing then thats 100% awesome. I dont like the walking dead, but for all I care, the walking dead can run for 100 seasons, if other people like it, let them enjoy it.

There are so many people that want something cancelled or taken off the air because they dont like it.
I personally do not want it to be canceled and fail, I would like it to improve and be what it should have been from the beginning ... or at least improve enough faithful as possible and have an enjoyable script and characters. I am aware that at this time, after a full season, it is difficult to straighten the show.

But if the series had been fixed from the beginning, instead of fortifying itself in pride and arrogance, from the moment when it began to criticize because it was already evident even only with the promotional material that all those changes and failures existed, this is not it would have happened

But instead of that those responsible dedicated themselves to lying, like when it was criticized that we didn't want modern policies inserted in the series, and the showrunners came out saying that they wouldn't have them... to now find ourselves with Numeronians complaining about illegal immigration ( "the elves will come to take away our jobs") or the personality changes of characters as important as Galadriel in a disastrous way, only to show the current idealized stereotype of the modern and independent woman... today, being rebellious and not having husbands is the only way to show your strength and independence.

I like Walking Dead, but I enjoy it less and less, and I am aware that is because the more it separates from the original material, the more the series is worsens... as an example there is Fear the Walkien Dead, which I think is infinitely worse than TWD, or the last season of GOT.

And sorry everyone for my slowness and backlog of responses...I want to join the debate, it's very interesting, but my English writing is so slow and I fall behind all the time.. :oops:

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XerachCruz wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:51 am And sorry everyone for my slowness and backlog of responses...I want to join the debate, it's very interesting, but my English writing is so slow and I fall behind all the time.. :oops:
I quote you on this and make your words my own.
You all definitely write much better English than I do, and have already described exactly how I feel; so, there's no need for further writing.
Thanks for the understanding everybody :) it's good to know that at least you're being heard!

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XerachCruz wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:51 am I personally know that I am not a great reader, more time goes than I would like between books, and I have not read too many different authors. But for me, if is difficult to read a book because its writing is not simple and easy to digest as in modern works, it really challenges me and I try harder to enjoy it, and as I adapt to his writing, I enjoy it more.
I know that the limitation is in me, because I do not maintain the habit of reading over time, I can't think of blaming the authors
Yep, I find it near impossible to read Joyce, but it is my failure, not Joyce's.
And btw I forgot to mention Cervantes in my "lit list"...My apologies. ;)
Yet, I still have to read Don Quixote in translation .
XerachCruz wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:51 am Some friends of mine who have read LOTR but not the Silmarillion (because they have not wanted because some have in at home) and are watching ROP have called me asking questions about the show. Questions like "Who is Adar?" or "Who is the man with the meteorite?" and many other things... and the most I have been able to say to them is... "They will be who the writers of the show want them to be, because none of that is in the books."
And that, boys and girls, is the perfect answer, the most concise explanation to any and all questions about the RoP lack of fidelity to ME source material.
XerachCruz wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:51 am And sorry everyone for my slowness and backlog of responses...I want to join the debate, it's very interesting, but my English writing is so slow and I fall behind all the time.. :oops:
You are doing fine, really. No need to feel bad. Take as much time as you need to reply.
We have no "Necro-post" police here :police: (at least none that I am aware of :D )
Last edited by Deimos on Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.


"Unless you're prepared to surrender everything, don't surrender anything."

When seconds matter, it's reassuring to know that the police are only minutes away.

"Only the paranoid survive."

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Did not like the battle episode. Not a fan of the action and a lot of the dramatic moments felt unearned. Im at a stage now where I’m more worried than positive. Half way through the series it feels as if the characters haven’t evolved, there’s no arcs, especially for Galadriel. Or maybe there is and it’s just not sinking in for me, I dunno. I thought Galadriel would be the one I enjoyed the most but I was wrong.

Not sure how I feel about Adar either. This series reminds of those Mordor games. They have moments where they feel like Middle Earth but then they stray very very far from it.

Im hoping it can pull itself around by the end of the season but I doubt it tbh.

I started watching Andor as well which I couldn’t have been any less interested in during the run up to the series premier not being the biggest fan of Rogue One. Interestingly, I lost interest in House of The Dragon, I’m rapidly losing interest in ROP but Andor appears to be the sleeper hit here for me personally. I have no idea what the budget for Andor is but it looks amazing and is hands down the best Star Wars show. I was impressed by the first few eps of ROP but Andor seems to have succeeded far better on what I presume is a much smaller budget.

They can’t be compared, not really, but Andor has better characters, writing and production values. Four eps in and I feel like I’ve gone on a journey with the characters and there’s so much more to come.

In ROP I feel like I’ve seen how athletic Galadriel is enough to last me a lifetime and there’s sadly a severe lack of Elrond. Cut out all the war stuff and make it a romcom about Elrond and Durin and it would be much better.

Im assuming the end of season 1 will be the reveal of Annatar being the one influencing Celebrimbor and the rings being forged. If it’s not, they screwed up with their title too.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Lindir wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:53 am Which books do I need to read to find out what Rings of Power should be? Is it covered in The Silmarillion or is it all in the appendices in LOTR?
That's not an easy answer as it depends on what you're looking to understand.

If it's about the events that shaped the period of time RoP supposedly and very loosely takes place in, then yeah, the Silmarillion is the best place to start. It will give you a lot of context on the War of the Jewels, the divisions and strife between the Elven Houses, and the full background on how Numenor and its people came to be. Material on the Second Age is scarce beyond major events told in chronological order. This is why RoP has the excuse to make up a lot of stuff. The problem is that nearly all of it contradicts or outright breaks what was written, particularly with time compression.

What you shouldn't expect is deep character development or arcs and dialogue that help you dig deep into who some of the main characters of RoP were, such as Galadriel. You should, however, find some fundamental differences that help explain why some fans have issues with how the show is portraying her, and how they've seized on her as this world-shaking protagonist for their narrative, when in fact it's all fiction on their part. In the end, I think you might understand how PJ's version of her cleaves a lot closer to what Tolkien gave us in the texts.

You should also dig into Unfinished Tales for a closer and more indepth look at some of the stories from the Silmarilion, and leave the Tale of Years from the Appendices for last (or use them as reference while you read the rest).

In any case, prepare to throw out about 95% of what you think you have learned about Middle-earth from watching RoP. As long as you go in with that in mind, you might find this will be an amazing and fulfilling journey... or you might just be bored to death. You'll just have to try and see for yourself.
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Thanks Val! I have a nice copy of the Silmarillion already but need to pick up the Unfinished Tales too. My opinions on ROP have soured quite drastically. I regret giving it the benefit of the doubt but that is my lesson to learn.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Lindir wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 7:30 am I regret giving it the benefit of the doubt but that is my lesson to learn.
I don't think you should feel that way. My stance on the show is based on knowing what it could have been, and what it most definitely isn't. Without a deeper knowledge and understanding of the richness of the source material, you had nothing to compare it to going in. As such, it seems your dislike for the show is based on the other elements of it that don't have anything to do with the lore, which is the background you are missing. If, without that important component, you still find you don't like the show, then it doesn't say much for the strength (or lack thereof) of things such as writing, plot and character development, acting, casting, and direction. Those are elements we can all judge separate from lore errors or deliberate disregard for it.

Remember, sometimes you need to experience the bad before you can can gain true appreciation for the good. I sincerely hope you enjoy your read and see what could have been.
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After a friend watched it the other day and I was casually watching I thought "Perhaps I was too harsh on the Hobbit, had I know what was ahead I would have been more forgiving" one thing that RoP and the Hobbit has really shown and made apparent is just how much of a masterpiece LOTR is. Even though I was about ten when it came out I knew it was something special but certainly took for granted just how good it was, as I haven't seen it's like since.
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Just watched the finale. Meh.

The last shot of Sauron looking out over Mordor reminded me of that god awful Shannara Chronicles series where the dodgy elf guy “unexpectedly” turned out to be the bad guy. There’s a few things about Rings of Power that reminds me of the Shannara Chronicles. The corrupted tree being the major one. Is that from the books? I guess I’ll find out soon enough.

Spoilers so read at your own peril:


Halbrand was Sauron. A lot of people saw it coming. I guess they don’t have the rights to Annatar and so just replaced him with Halbrand?

The show has its moments of heartfelt warmth and some genuinely interesting and dramatic moments. But it’s bogged down in seriously crappy character building and story. At the end of the season none of the characters - except Ganda- I mean mystery man, have changed. The Numenorean storyline was meh. I like the actors for Elendil and Isildur, but the forced family drama was tedious. I still cringe at the line of that random Numenorean saying elves were out to steal their jobs.

One of my favourite parts about the series was the dwarves. I genuinely liked Disa and the two Durin’s. But again, they barely change across the story.

I do like Arondir the elf but again, as with the others, there’s little to no character development there. And Bronwyn honestly felt like a waste of space.

The story? Ehhhh, I couldn’t really tell you what it is. Sometimes you can’t, it’s like explaining to people what GOT is or what Westworld is. But with this it’s maybe because the story just felt very thin. It could have been a lot shorter.

In the end, at least the three elven rings were made. So it justified its title at least. But I was under the assumption all of the rings were forged together?
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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LOTR is a flawed masterpiece in my opinion, but a masterpiece nonetheless. It accomplished what I thought was impossible. I think it also set a standard for how to do an adaptation right. I really like The Hobbit films, for the most part, but I consider them more of a little kids movie you watch before LOTR. There are moments of greatness, but also many moments of childish silliness that bog it down. I think it went too far with all the drowning Smaug in gold stuff and the endless Afrid scenes. I usually fast forward through that stuff, but overall the films are enjoyable and make a nice lead in to LOTR.

I feel the same about the books too. I love The Hobbit book, but it will always be a kids book to me, as it is more juvenile and I was a little kid when I read it. I read LOTR in high school, so that will always be the 'adult' Tolkien master work to me.
KRDS

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Lindir wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 11:53 pm There’s a few things about Rings of Power that reminds me of the Shannara Chronicles. The corrupted tree being the major one. Is that from the books? I guess I’ll find out soon enough.
That show was utterly terrible, and as a big Shannara fan, I so wanted it to be good, yet it was the complete opposite. It actually started out decently faithful to the source material but just gave up any pretense halfway through. I never bothered with the second season, and I wasn't shocked when it was cancelled after that. I predict the same fate for Rings of Power - will be very, very surprised if this series crosses the finish line.

To answer your question though on the corrupted tree thing, though, if you mean Shannara, yes, that's in the books. If you mean Middle-earth, no, there is no such thing in the story.
Lindir wrote: Thu Oct 13, 2022 11:53 pm In the end, at least the three elven rings were made. So it justified its title at least. But I was under the assumption all of the rings were forged together?
Not every detail is made clear, but several things are known - Celebrimbor learns the art of crafting the rings of power from Annatar, and together in Eregion, the two forge the Nine and the Seven, which Annatar would later take his time to distribute to the various leaders of Men and Dwarves. Celebrimbor, probably already suspicious of Annatar, forges the Three in secret, without Annatar's knowing. Thus, their power is free of Sauron's taint (as in they did not have a corrupting effect on their wearers), but because they were made with the same knowledge and craft, they were still bound to the One, which Sauron forged afterwards on his own to control all of the rings that had been created. He comes back to Eregion, kills Celebrimbor and steals all the rings except the Three, which were hidden. When he put on the One for the first time, the wearers of the Three knew of him immediately - they literally heard him chanting the ring verse in Mordor in their minds, but were in turn exposed and vulnerable to him as he became aware of them, so to protect themselves, they took off their rings immediately.

The Three would not be worn again until Sauron was vanquished in the Last Alliance, and the One lost for 3000 years.
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Nasnandos wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 3:16 am LOTR is a flawed masterpiece in my opinion, but a masterpiece nonetheless. It accomplished what I thought was impossible. I think it also set a standard for how to do an adaptation right. I really like The Hobbit films, for the most part, but I consider them more of a little kids movie you watch before LOTR. There are moments of greatness, but also many moments of childish silliness that bog it down. I think it went too far with all the drowning Smaug in gold stuff and the endless Afrid scenes. I usually fast forward through that stuff, but overall the films are enjoyable and make a nice lead in to LOTR.

I feel the same about the books too. I love The Hobbit book, but it will always be a kids book to me, as it is more juvenile and I was a little kid when I read it. I read LOTR in high school, so that will always be the 'adult' Tolkien master work to me.
That is fair, and part of how people view the LOTR and the Hobbit certainly has to do with the age they were when they saw it, and whether they had read the books first. There are some good movies in the Hobbit somewhere if one trims out the fat and nonsense like the Alfrid and extended gold/Smaug chase scenes, or the barrel chase scene. The Hobbit also had the impossible task in following up the LOTR which at that point ten years later had a legendary reputation, but like you said it is a children's book yet the movie tries to walk a line between being a epic like LOTR and a children's movie which just doesn't work.
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Overall I rather enjoyed the series, as in, it was entertaining to me.

I must admit, did not see the twist coming, but oh well, its not always fun to guess all the twists. Was it a faithful adaptation of Tolkien, nope, not at all. But then again, I never assumed it was going to be, its a rather loose interpretation/take/adaptation of Tolkien that I made peace with a long time ago. Events are shifted, timeline truncated, clearly the rings are going to made quite differently etc

Its definitely not for everyone, and I totally respect that. But one thing, its stunning to watch.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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We've been watching ROP and HOTD side by side over the past few weeks, as I'm sure many have. HOTD blows it out of the water, in comparison to ROP its amazing. I've no interest whatsoever in replicas of any of the objects in ROP, I find the prop and weaponry design far too fantasy, unlike LOTR which managed to create weapons which for the most part felt right out of history.

A glimmer of hime - A little birdie in the know told me they've secured more film design rights for series 2, if this is true we may see designs shift much closer to the movies. I suspect Amazon have learned a lot from the shambles of season 1, and S2 will hopefully be a bit of a reset.

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Lindir wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 9:38 pm Why would they want to replicate the designs from the movies though? I don’t quite get what ROP is going for. They said prior that it was it’s own thing and had to stand on its own, but why do this? It’s odd.
They need to do something to get fans to think of this more like the loved and praised LOTR fims, rather than what it is, so makes perfect sense to swipe whatever they can to attempt to give that impression.
KRDS

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They are already taking lines and other aspects from the LOTR and inserting it into RoP so why not just continue to do so with the weapons? I mean the Balrog is a complete copy of the PJ version. What is that quote from Tolkien? The shadow cannot create, it can only imitate and mock. If UC does decide to make RoP replicas I certainly have no interest in them. Like others have said, the arms and armor is either incredibly boring or just to fantastical. I cannot stand the look of an all metal looking hilt.
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spelling error in my last post, I meant a glimmer of hope*

I believe they knew people would connect more if famous props had continuity, so Narsil can be the same etc. Ultimately the Battle of the last alliance can tie in properly too when they get to it, Sauron/the elves/men will all have the same design.

When making ROP 1 they had to change it due to not having the rights, but I bet all along they wish they had. Now they can make it a reality.

I wish they hadn't spent so much time with crap stories like the sword hilt key to mt doom and had spent much more time on things like the forging of the rings. That felt like a throwaway moment at the end of the series, rather than the culmination of years of ringcraft and learning. Bish bash bosh here you go 3 mithril alloy rings, chucked together in a matter of minutes.

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Jamie Shakespeare wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:38 am I wish they hadn't spent so much time with crap stories like the sword hilt key to mt doom and had spent much more time on things like the forging of the rings. That felt like a throwaway moment at the end of the series, rather than the culmination of years of ringcraft and learning. Bish bash bosh here you go 3 mithril alloy rings, chucked together in a matter of minutes.

Exactly. Unfortunately, we wind up getting a lot of crap side stories instead of a thought-out, exciting adaptation of the canonical storyline. Oh well... :cry:

Even the few minutes we had of the forging of the elven rings were not free from inconsistencies and cringe moments... I mean, how would Celembrimbor not have been aware of the possibility of joining metals? Or how to do it? And how exactly do you get the 'pure gold and silver from Valinor' out of a molten dagger (mixed steel included lol)? I don't know... But somehow, Nenya ended up silvery while the other two golden.

Also, just to be sure, according to this series, Sauron went to Eregion just by chance (Galadriel took him there) to 'teach' Celebrimbor how to make the 3 elven rings of power (what about the other 16?), in that way helping save the elves (his most powerful opponents). :O

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The Fireworks Display.

Many years ago my wife and I decided to see what was billed as "The best fireworks display in Birmingham". As we set out in the early evening to drive the 30-odd miles to where the event was taking place we noticed a mist coming down. The mist quickly turned to fog and by the time we arrived it was thick fog.
Well, we had paid our money and stood in the field with hundreds of others, wondering if this display was going to take place at all.

It did. We could hear the whoosh and bang as the rockets and bombs were sent skywards, only to witness the fog above being illuminated by faint colours of green, white, red and blue. Despite the disappointment due to the weather there were still hundreds of folks going "Ohh, Ahh" as the murky sky lit up. They couldn't see anything but were still excited!

Then we come to Rings of Power and I had that same feeling of anticipation followed by disappointment and frustration.

I am not going to reiterate what others have already said about ROP, all comments are valid and I agree with most.

Opinions I have read so far about ROP is like discussing Marmite.

However, I did find the relationship between Durin and Elrond most enjoyable, rather similar to the unlikely friendship between Legolas and Gimli.
These two were by far the most interesting characters and well acted.
On the visual side John Howe's artistic contribution is astonishing as ever. I had the opportunity to meet him in Birmingham at the Tolkien 2019 exhibition, along with Ted Nasmith. Both have incredible inagination and the ability to bring wonderful scenes to life.

However, I am a maker of things. The things I like making are the ones that nobody else wants to make. I also enjoy a challenge and there is one thing that caught my eye out of ROP. The fragment of Mithril Ore.

Mithril is referred to in both The Hobbit and Lord of The Rings and was used to create Galadriel's Ring, Nenya.
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I think I can make this in metal and make it 'as light as a feather'. Well, I'm going to try! To my way of thinking...this is an important piece that goes beyond Rings of Power in both directions. I have never been a metal-worker before and smelting/casting metal is a new avenue for me.

How bad can this be, melting and pouring metal at a few hundred degrees and not wearing socks.
Just call me Fëanor.

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Levidas wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:15 am

Even the few minutes we had of the forging of the elven rings were not free from inconsistencies and cringe moments... I mean, how would Celembrimbor not have been aware of the possibility of joining metals? Or how to do it? And how exactly do you get the 'pure gold and silver from Valinor' out of a molten dagger (mixed steel included lol)? I don't know... But somehow, Nenya ended up silvery while the other two golden.

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I mean, we are also talking about a world that was flat and then was magically around, dragons and balrogs exist, along with immortal elves, taking the essence of the trees of valinor and making jewels out of them... not that far fetched that someone could melt down a dagger and separate the gold and silver.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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BladeCollector wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:35 am
Levidas wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:15 am

Even the few minutes we had of the forging of the elven rings were not free from inconsistencies and cringe moments... I mean, how would Celembrimbor not have been aware of the possibility of joining metals? Or how to do it? And how exactly do you get the 'pure gold and silver from Valinor' out of a molten dagger (mixed steel included lol)? I don't know... But somehow, Nenya ended up silvery while the other two golden.

I mean, we are also talking about a world that was flat and then was magically around, dragons and balrogs exist, along with immortal elves, taking the essence of the trees of valinor and making jewels out of them... not that far fetched that someone could melt down a dagger and separate the gold and silver.
I understand your point in this specific situation.

I usually do not like to think that way, since Tolkien's world for me always feels like a real, parallel version of our world. Sure it has bits of fantasy in the mix, but note that in reality, non-fire-breathing dragons do exist, as well as giant worms, multi-centenarian mammals (and literally some immortal jellyfish), huge flying dinosaurs did exist, etc... Making jewellery from natural resources is not really that uncommon, and you could arguably even find a parallel for the (malicious) 'essence' of some ores if we're talking about radioactive materials.

My point is: Tolkien described his world so minutely that, to my eyes, it is fundamentally believable; the natural laws are perfectly defined, and causality prevails. In this particular case, I could indeed see Celembrimbor using magic to separate gold from silver from steel out of the molten dagger - so, why didn't they show us that? You're either in the fantasy world or the real world; IMO they've hidden many fantasies in a world that tries very hard to appear as real as possible.

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