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I don’t know if I’ve connected the dots wrong with all your messages Olorin… but I have to know. So please feel free to spoil for me. Is Foundation set up as a prequel to the story of humanity that we have experienced in reality?

Also on Lee Pace - yes I think that was definitely for his fans haha. Although I find it odd that the person who accompanied him didn’t realise that he didn’t have a belly button.

I really liked this episode. I think I’m enjoying it a lot because I haven’t read the books beyond the first few chapters of the first book. I hope once it’s done you can still find things to enjoy about it though Olorin.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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I don't really understand your first question, so I'll just say that the Foundation series was inspired by a famous history book called A History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. That's about it.

With Foundation, Asimov is commonly credited with inventing the concept of a galactic empire, a concept that was most famously used in, of course, Star Wars, but also Dune and undoubtedly a host of lesser-known works.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Yeh I worded it weird. I guess the simpler way of asking the question is, is Foundation actually set in the distant past and we are the result of the Foundation?

I kept getting this feeling that was where it was going to go and you mentioned one of the characters looking for Earth so in my mind it started to make sense.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Ah, now I understand. Yes, you did word that oddly.

But hard no, Foundation is not set in our actual past (unlike The Lord of the Rings). Asimov freely admitted that someone looking for complete consistency within the Foundation series might be disappointed, because he originally wrote the original trilogy as a series of loosely interconnected short stories and novellas and only later took a stab at modifying them to work together as books. That said, earlier on he supposed that Foundation took place about 50,000 years in the future. Later, when he began to integrate it into the same timeline as I, Robot, the Robot Novels, and the Galactic Empire Novels, he cut that back to about 24,000 years in the future.

Other parts of this shared universe.... I, Robot, a series of short stories told over the life of Dr. Susan Calvin, originally was set with the first story around 1998, thought I don't recall whether that is explicit. Sci fi authors often are intentionally vague about when their stories are set: when our time catches up to when a story was set and we don't have AI or FTL travel, it kind of ruins the credibility of the story. Classic example: Arthur C. Clarke's 2001: A Space Odyssey. We are now past the time of the first two books and yet we do not have AI, manned flights to Jupiter, alien monoliths being found on the Moon or in orbit of Jupiter, or a mysterious alien superpower converting Jupiter into a star for the benefit of the nascent lifeforms on its moon Europa. Dune is set, IIRC correctly, in 10,191, but that is not 10,191 AD but rather 10,191 years after some other seminal event, the founding of the Spacing Guild, I think. But I digress: I, Robot is set around the turn of the 21st Century, the Robot Novels are set around 3000 years in the future, and the Galactic Empire novels are set during the nascence of the Empire and the ascent of Trantor as its capital, around 12,000 years into our future. In the Foundation books, two time systems are used: relative to the founding of the Empire, with the first story taking place around 12,000 GE, and then relative to the founding of the Foundation, with the first story being set at 0 FE (Foundation Era).

Fun factoids about the Foundation universe: The Galactic Empire is around 12,000 years old at the time of the founding of the Foundation. There are 25 million inhabited worlds and the total population of the Empire is around one quintillion human beings. The population of Trantor is 40 billion. The TV show has explicitly embraced the 12,000 year age but has been super-vague and contradictory on the Empire's population. Anyway, in Asimov's stories, humankind is essentially the only sentient race in the galaxy. I guess he felt there were complexities enough in humans dealing with each other (and with robots), without bringing aliens into the mix. His reason he posited for this was that Earth was unique in having a relatively high level of radioactivity in its crust, causing a higher rate of mutation and therefore a higher rate of evolution. Consequently, Earth had millions of different species and complex ecosystems, whereas other planets had little or no life and very simple ecosystems. The one exception to this was a race called the Cepheids. They occur in a short story related to the Foundation universe. They were sentient but not ambitious or expansionist, and the Galactic Empire had already moved them to a different planet once. When they were about to be moved again, someone took pity on them and gave them superluminal ships, so they could leave the Milky Way and get out of humanity's path.

By the time of the Foundation Era, Earth is a forgotten world, known only in legend. No one knows or much cares where humanity arose, or if they do, they assume it was on Trantor. Around 500 FE, a council member of Terminus is exiled from Terminus for questioning that the Foundation is the sole polity working toward humanity's future, and a professor interested in human origins is sent with him. Those two concepts are linked (naturally), and their quest forms the basis of Foundation's Edge & Foundation and Earth. Quest stories are a popular trope in literature and this one, search for the lost world of origin, was one that I found very interesting. It was over the course of these two books that Asimov really tied all his major series together. Beyond having an interesting premise, the fact that both books had the same continuing characters and told one continuous story really sets them apart from the original trilogy, which had an ever changing cast of characters and much more limited story arcs.

Last night I read something interesting about the TV show. Goyer said that they were using some concepts from the sequels in the first season, and concepts from the prequels would be used in season 2. Unless it is something that is yet to be revealed in the final two episodes of this season, I'm not sure what he is claiming was sourced from the sequels, as nothing has been obvious in that regard. The only thing I can think of is the word "exo" scrawled on the bridge of the Invictus, and the characters' speculation that it referred to life outside the Milky Way Galaxy. In the sequels, one of the characters speculates that certainly there must be intelligent life in other galaxies and if it were ever to invade, humanity would be in big trouble, as we would be unlikely to come together to oppose the invader. Other than that, I have no idea what Goyer may have been referring to. If he has seized on this, a relatively unimportant idea that Asimov never further developed, and is ignoring all the other things that Asimov did write about, that would be...questionable. Unless of course, an invasion by extragalactic aliens was something in Asimov's notes for a future sequel. Who knows....
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Oh, and about the belly button thing...it's very rude when looking at someone to drop your gaze below the level of the other person's eyes, so I'm sure that's why Brother Day's fellow pilgrim paid no notice to the missing belly button.

Kidding aside, I myself have yet to notice that, though there have been at least two scenes with a shirtless Pace. But if they are indeed suggesting they have no navels because they're clones, they've already contradicted themselves. The scene where Brother Dusk is looking at the infant clone floating in the tank clearly shows an umbilical cord. So if the decanted clones have no navels, they must have had cosmetic surgery.

Something else occurred to me, a curiosity about Asimov's writing. Demerzel, both in the show and in the book, along with a number of other prominent synthetics in Asimov's stories, were always referred to by him as robots, or specifically, humaniform robots, instead of the term android. Surely he must have known of the word; Merriam-Webster claims it has existed since 1736. So I am guessing that either he didn't like the word or felt that it was less understandable in meaning than humaniform robot. And of course Data on Star Trek, which was quick to correct anyone who called him a robot, was inspired, along with his positronic brain, by Asimov's works.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I’m glad that’s not the case. Not that it couldn’t be done, but I was worried that that was going to be the case. I’m still worried in Westworld it’ll be revealed that they were all inside a simulation anyway :S

Besides, my question was answered pretty much how you stated in this latest episode. Interesting that they also mention Alpha Centauri - the closest solar system to us.

I’m saddened that there’s only one episode left, I don’t know how I’m going to get through haha

The actor who plays Salvor Hardin confirmed on Instagram that they are indeed shooting season 2 right now and she will be starting again soon. It’s quite interesting because I thought they were going to conclude her story this season and we’d say goodbye to Salvor.

Also I’m interested in how Gaal’s storyline will conclude this season. She’s returning to Synnax and from some of the BTS videos you can see she does actually arrive meaning at that point she is over 100 years into the future. Also she seems to discover something interesting on Synnax, unless it’s a red herring.

I wonder if they’re playing it more along the lines of she at this point doubts Hari and wants to see for herself if civilisation on Synnax is actually destroyed by the flooding she discovered was coming.

Also with belly buttons, Brother Dawn was also missing his which you could clearly see during his steamy scene haha. I’m glad the sex scenes aren’t overly explicit in Foundation - I know I may sound like a prude but when you hit your late 20’s you’ve kinda seen it all haha and I’d honestly rather see more space scenes or more storytelling scenes. But I think the sex scenes have been handled quite tastefully so far.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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So I have watched the episode now, and the culmination of the first crisis was about what I thought it was going to be. And the Vault, oh yeah, that was exactly what I thought it was going to be (though very different from how it works in the books). WIthout giving away a huge spoiler, in the books the Vault just did its thing without any intervention. How it worked in the show I think reflects the writers' tug of war between the idea of psychohistory, which is something very close to predestination, and the need for characters to have agency and not just be passively swept along in the plot.

And with the opening vignette, with young Salvor and her father, and their discussion about where humankind originated... OK, there is something that is a story idea from the sequels. I imagine that is the only thing from them that is being worked into this season (I hope). So perhaps it is a very early foreshadowing.

Brother Dawn's story.... I'm trying to decide how sorry to feel for him. The writers have set him up as someone unique and different from the other clones, and of course portraying him as young and innocent and falling in love is all meant to conjure sympathy. But at the same time, he is still from the same DNA (even though subtly altered) as the other Cleons that committed atrocities like bombing Anacreon and Thespis.

There are two questions that are on my mind now. First is what will the final episode show? I think obviously it is going to deal with Gaal's story. Also, I sense a Game of Thrones season structure here, though probably GoT is not the first show to do this, but it's the one where it stood out to me. What I'm talking about is having the big climax be the second to last, with the final episode dealing with the (surviving) characters picking up the pieces and figuring out how to move forward. And the second question is, will Apple release this on disc? I've probably wondered here about that before. Disney+ releases none of its exclusive streaming series on disc. They want you to have to come to them to see it again. Apple TV+, on the other hand, has released at least one of its series on disc. So there is hope.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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So I’ve watched the final episode. It’s hard to digest what I’m feeling. I’ve been in an odd mind space for a few weeks now so I don’t know if that’s affecting it.

I feel a bit mixed at the end of this season. Though I really enjoyed elements of the story, I feel the culmination of the first crises didn’t really land and then we were away before we got time to settle with it.

Also I’m not sure how I feel about them linking Salvor and Gaal. I suspected it was coming, but it being the cliffhanger of the season wasn’t really what I was hoping.

I think if we were to compare it to Dune, I think Dune is better. I left the cinema and ever since it’s been on my mind and it grows more positively in my mind, whereas parts of Foundation bug me a little.

There’s one thing that’s really bugging me is the space travel. Salvor got to Synnax before Gaal. I don’t think it helps there not being any clear star maps, but is Terminus closer to Synnax than Helicon?

I know Gaal was travelling in the pod and Salvor had a ship so Gaal was definitely going slower, but its just not working for me. I guess it won’t until the I can process it in my head, where all these planets are. Also I really wanted to see Helicon… I wish Gaal had stayed on the Raven. Something similar happened in the first episode - Gaal says it would take 8 years to reach Terminus but then in episode 2 they say it only takes 4 or 5 years. It’s a minor thing but it’s bugging me haha

Will I be tuning in for next season: absolutely, I’m still invested in the story and it’s amazing seeing this universe realised and I still think the cast are phenomenal but I hope the climax of season 2 is a bit more satisfying.

I think there were a couple of standout episodes for me - I loved episode 3 with its flashback to Cleon the first and getting to see Demerzel more and then cutting to the events on Terminus with Gaal. Episode 1 was amazing, seeing this world open up for the first time, I still love it. I did really enjoy the attack on Terminus which took place over episodes 4 and 5 if I remember correctly. Also I loved the expedition to the Invictus.

Episode 2 was the weakest, by far. It felt like filler for the most part and just felt very “stuck” - they were travelling really slowly through space though haha.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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If you've been in a mood, that can't help but affect it, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be hard to figure out how the show sits with you, absent a mood.

I'm collecting my thoughts on the finale and the season as a whole at the moment, also. I think the finale did a pretty good job of tying up loose story threads from this season and positioning the characters for their journeys in the second season. I'm not sure how I feel with what they are doing with Salvor's story. In the book, she (he) was Mayor of Terminus for a good long while, successfully navigating two Seldon crises and generally being, uh, foundational in establishing the settlement's government. Here, the show version has navigated one crisis prior to becoming Mayor, but has now absconded and dropped out of the settlement's history without ever being Mayor. And this is pretty representative of what the show is doing, in large part, Asimov's story is in this show, but it's so crowded by manufactured elements like the Genetic Dynasty and so masked by drastically altered characterizations that it can be hard to recognize. This is excusable, to whatever extent it is, by the fact that the Genetic Dynasty story is interesting, very science-fictiony, and propelled by strong acting, especially from Lee Pace. He's riveting whenever he's on screen.

It's unavoidable, given the coincident timing of the adaptations and the towering stature of their source materials, but it's not really an apples to apples comparison to compare the Foundation streaming series with the Dune movie. Dune the book was carefully plotted and meticulously written, and its movie adaptation was made by a modern master of cinema. Foundation was written by a young author writing short stories for the pulps, coming up with cool ideas but having a long way to go in terms of storytelling craft, at least in the early days. Its TV adaptation was made by someone with a fairly long resume (most of which is probably pretty forgettable) and obvious competence in wrangling a huge production, and yet he's no Villeneuve. Plus, Dune for all its scope, can somewhat be absorbed in one sitting, as it's a single movie (for the moment). I think I will probably binge Foundation now that it's all available, and see how it feels in one long sweep.

Until then, what did I think? Was it sweeping, epic, engrossing to watch, and utterly spectacular to look at? Yes. Was it Asimov's Foundation? Well as I've stated, Foundation is in there, but it is so swathed in layers of invention that it's easy to forget what this is supposed to be. I am naively hopeful that now that the show is set up and running, later seasons can hew more closely to the books, especially since the books after the first one have better defined, longer-running stories. But I know there's really no reason to expect that, other than hope and naivete. We'll see.

There was one super-cool easter egg in the finale, that I did not notice until I saw it pointed out in a YouTube video. When Demerzel sits down at her dressing table/robot repair shop, the image on the lid of her kit box is Earth's solar system. So while the show does not have rights to the Robot novels or the true nature of Demerzel (who she really is), they are showing us where she came from, or that she is aware of the origin of humanity.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Last week the new cast for Season 2 was announced and one still image provided, though as yet there is no release date for Season 2. Read all about it here: https://www.macrumors.com/2022/02/01/fo ... irst-look/

Two familiar names jumped out from the new cast list. Ben Daniels will be playing General Bel Riose, the last competent military commander of the old Empire, and the one who came within a hair's breadth of conquering what he sees as the rebellious Foundation. Ben Daniels played a Rebellion leader in Rogue One, the older priest in the Exorcist TV series from a few years ago, and Antony Armstrong-Jones, 1st Earl of Snowdon and husband of Princess Margaret in the third season of The Crown. Actually, the press release misspelled the character's name as Roise, so I hope that is not indicative of Season 2's attention to detail. The other actor known to me is Mikael Persbrandt, who played Beorn in Jackson's Hobbit movies. He's playing the Warlord of Kalgan. Riose is the antagonist of the first half of Foundation and Empire, and the Warlord is an off-screen antagonist of the second half of that book. That they are casting someone to play him and have given him an ominous character description indicates a considerable beefing up of that role. Other character names from the casting announcement include Hober Mallow and Poly Verisof, both characters from the first book, so the slicing and dicing ("remixing") continues. Hober Mallow was a prominent Foundation leader from the early days, and Poly Verisof was a priest/Foundation agent in the religion they used to control the surrounding kingdoms. The show is calling it the Church of the Galactic Spirit, which I'm fine with, though the book never gives it an official name. The Galactic Spirit is an actual concept from the book, though, and so the Church of the Galactic Spirit is probably a better name than something else they might have come up with (like Scientism). https://asimov.fandom.com/wiki/Scientism
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I’m hoping season 2 will be out this year but that may be a bit ambitious.

I rewatched the finale the other week and enjoyed it a lot more. Definitely think it was a mixture of expectations and also the other things going on in my life that ruined my enjoyment of it the first time I watched it. I’m going to do a full rewatch of the first season soon. I’m really looking forward to seeing this story continue :)
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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I'll be very surprised if we get Season 2 this year but it's not impossible.

I meant to binge Season 1, after having seen each new episode each week, but I didn't get around to it. I instead prioritized watching some of other Apple TV+ shows during my all-too-brief 3-month free subscription. If you're interested in the space race from the 60s, and alternative history, check out For All Mankind, which is about how it all played out when Russia beat America to the moon. Very well done show.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Over a year since we updated this thread, I think we’re still the only fans here Olorin.

But a few months back there was a sneak peak of season 2 with a Summer 2023 release date.

https://youtu.be/IGWT-t7AS74

Also found out today that there will be an art and making of book covering the first 2 seasons that will release in October which I’ll certainly be picking up.

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/book ... ike-avila/
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Yes, I will definitely get that book. Thanks for alerting me to it!

The second season is coming this summer sometime; they haven't given a precise date yet. The trailer they released actually has very little footage from the second season; most of it appears to be sourced from the first season.

I still really hope that at some point Apple releases these on Blu-ray. They have done very little of their streaming series son Blu-ray thus far, although recently they announced that they had licensed somebody to release a few of their series on Blu-ray in the UK. So Lindir, you may actually be able to get it on Blu-ray someday, though I may not. In the meantime, if you would like to watch a good science-fiction series that is an alternative history, one of the Apple series it's going to be released on Blu-ray in Britain is For All Mankind, which is the alt-history version of the space race. I've seen the first two seasons on Apple TV+, and it's really great.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Yes I’ve heard great things about For All Mankind so I’m definitely going to check it out at some point. There’s a new series called Silo which is starting in May which I’m interested in checking out.

I wonder if there may be licensing issues regarding a Foundation Blu-ray release? I would love it on blu-ray though and I’d love an in depth making of documentary but sadly such documentaries seem to be becoming more and more rare. I’m very much looking forward to the art book being released though, I’ve been hoping for one and I’m glad they’re doing one and it’ll be interesting to get a behind the scenes look at the series.

Apple are also doing a Metropolis series too which I’m looking forward to seeing. I’ve only seen bits of the original movie but I like the premise and I’m interested in seeing how they update it.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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I don't think it's licensing issues. I think it's simply that streaming companies don't want to release their shows on physical media, because then people don't have to keep subscribed to the service to watch it again and again. I think Apple is releasing a few things in the UK probably only because they're not sure they have sufficient penetration there with their service. Or something like that!
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Yeh they’re releasing a lot of their big hits but I guess what I was speculating with Foundation was maybe they don’t have rights for physical releases as part of their licensing deal with Asimov’s estate? I guess we’ll never know. They may also be waiting to release seasons 1 and 2 together.

I have been rewatching season 1 and I have been reminded of how great the sequences on the Maiden are. The speech given by Zephyr Halima is very powerful. I think it may just be slightly beaten by the last sequence between Demerzel and Halima though.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Full trailer was released yesterday.

Also this article indicates that filming on season 3 has already begun and will wrap later this year.

https://www.praguereporter.com/home/202 ... t=cmp-true


I’m hoping this may mean a quicker release for season 3. It would be great if they could release it annually. I know big shows like to have a 2 year gap now but I miss the annual releases.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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What?! Seriously that was the budget for season 1? That’s insane. It definitely looks like more money was thrown at it.

I hope if they can keep the budget low then it will ensure that the series continues.

Season 2 looks even more impressive. I’m really enjoying it. I won’t say more as to not spoil anything but the waiting between episodes is agonising. At least from next week I’ll have Ahsoka to occupy my attention on Wednesday’s 😂

Season 3 of Foundation has been shut down due to the strikes. I hope it doesn’t have a serious impact on its future.

Metropolis was cancelled outright by Apple. I’ve read that it was due to increasing costs and then the strikes just caused further headaches so it was scrapped altogether. It’s a shame.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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I just watched the season 2 finale and I love this show so much. I believe Demerzel is 100% my favourite character and I hope we continue to see more and more of her and that Laura Birn sticks around to play her.

I won’t spoil anything for the new season but there’s a nice cliffhanger that sets up season 3. I hate that we could be waiting slightly longer due to the strikes though.

I hope you enjoy it when you get round to watching it all Olorin!
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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One thing I wanted to mention for anyone following the shows is that the podcasts are pretty good. There is an official podcast that I listened to concurrently with Season 1. I enjoyed it but don't recall a lot about it. Last weekend I discovered there is also an unofficial podcast called Foundation and Podcast. It's very good. One of the hosts read the original trilogy 20 years ago and the other read just the first book, recently, so they have some knowledge of the books but not in depth. Some of their theories about the epsidoes really go down some rabbit holes and others are much more on the mark. Their podcast caught the attention of showrunner David S Goyer, so he does two question and answer sessions with them each season, and those are very illuminating. So, highly recommended.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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So, a few more minutes to type....

Some things I've gleaned from the podcasts.

Scripts for season 3 are written, a lot of pre-production is done, and at least some locations are scouted. Goyer didn't say anything about filming having started and in fact said Season 3 technically hasn't been greenlit by Apple yet. He said he thinks Seasons 3 and 4 will be greenlit, but that Apple plays things very close to the vest. I think that's a bit at variance with 2 years ago, when they greenlit Season 2 after only an episode or 2 of Season 1 had dropped. In any case, this is at odds with what we have read, that filming for Season 3 had begun. With the strikes now going on, who knows what's going to happen.

I think I mentioned at the time of Season 1 that Goyer said when he was shopping the show to different studios that none of them would consider it being done as an anthology, like the books were. The original trilogy consisted of anthologies of short stories and novellas, with no continuing characters. However, anthology series are anathema in Hollywood now. Apparently a few years back, there were a couple of shows in the anthology format, True Detective and Black Mirror, that had great first seasons but could not replicate that success in subsequent seasons, and this totally poisoned the concept for the studios. So for Foundation, they insisted upon a non-anthological format and continuing characters. That was the genesis of the Genetic Dynasty, AI Hari, and extended snoozes in the cryo-pod, so that characters could span hundreds of years. The new info on this is that Apple also insisted that the story have an end. Isaac Asimov regrettably died without ever finishing the tale of the 1000-year rise of the Foundation. Even at the time of the final sequel, only about 500 years had elapsed. Asimov then turned to prequels for a while, because he was stumped on how to finish it. And then he died. However, his daughter Robyn, who's his literary executor and worked with him in some capacity similar to that even before his death, has provided Goyer with her dad's notes on where he wanted the story to go. So, if he gets to do the 8 seasons, he will finish out the thousand years. He also mentioned that he and Robyn have a great relationship. His production has full rights to Foundation and can change the story any way they want, but whenever he's going to do anything really wild, he consults with her as she has a good sense of whether her dad would have approved. He said she also has watch parties with her friends every week, and loves it. She has the right to watch all the dailies during filming, but she wants to see the finished product.

Goyer also clarified more about the rights status. It had been reported originally that he had rights only to Foundation, though they could reference the Three Laws of Robotics. The nuance is that it wasn't that the estate was putting things from related Asimov works off-limits, it was that other studios held the rights. Well recently Goyer was talking to Lachlan Murdoch (yes, those Murdochs) of Fox, who apparently hold the rights to the Robot novels, and Goyer said he'd really like to have the right to connect Demerzel to the identity that she (actually, he) had in the millennia before the Empire. Murdoch is apparently a huge sci fi fan and loves the show, so he had his people cut a deal with Goyer so that they have the rights to Demerzel's true identity to some extent. So I was very glad to hear that. Not being able to make that connection would've deprived the character of a great deal of its gravity and importance.

One of the podcasters asked Goyer about the population of the Galactic Empire. The show said it's 8 trillion. He wanted to know if that was an analogy to Earth, which has 8 billion. Goyer said it could work that way, but they were wanting a number non-math people could connect to. Asimov said the population of the Empire was about a quintillion people. Goyer just could imagine that most people would understand that, but since they are used to hearing trillion from hearing so much about the US economy, he felt that was more accessible. This is a small point perhaps, but I think it takes away from the grandeur and believability for an empire that spans the entire Milky Way Galaxy to have its population be only 8 trillion. Oh, here's a sidebar: It occurred to me yesterday that Asimov's Galactic Empire and Herbert's Atreides Imperium have something in common: Earth is the only planet in the galaxy that developed intelligent life. I think in Asimov's case, he didn't feel up to trying to conceptualize how aliens might think and interact with humans. Not sure why Herbert had no aliens.

The show may get released on BluRay. The Foundation and Podcast guys explicitly asked Goyer about that in the Season 2 wrap up pod and he said it was in the works. No word on when it might happen because they haven't really put together much in the way of bonus features, and the strikes keep them from doing it currently. So, I'm hopeful that discs will come. I'm still not holding my breath until I see them in my hands. Most streamers have not allowed their shows onto physical media, wanting to force people to subscribe to see the show (Paramount accepted). That stone wall is starting to fracture somewhat. Apple licensed a couple of their shows to a third party for release on disc in the UK, including the excellent For All Mankind. And famously, Disney recently announced WandaVision, Loki, and The Mandalorian for 4K disc. Goyer also said that their would be additional merchandising (to me, that's a sign of the show's success), but he couldn't say more about it other than to mention the art book coming this fall. He said it's beautiful and they hope to do additional volumes for later seasons. But in any case he hinted there might be models or replicas of things from the show. One of the podcasters mentioned the Prime Radiant. I'd totally buy one of those if it wasn't too expensive! What a paperweight!

So, that's what I can remember from the pods I listened to while I mowed last night. They were the mid-season and post-season Goyer interviews on Foundation and Podcast. Today I started listening to the official pod for Season 2.

So, what did I think of Season 2? It's hard to put into words. It's very good and pulls me right along. I'm very glad I waited until the whole season was available so that I could binge it, as it would've been torture to wait a week between episodes with some of those huge plot developments. The show also continues to look far more expensive than apparently it is. Every penny is on screen. Sidebar: Goyer told a story about being dissatisfied with Cassion Bilton's (Dawn) wig in season 1. They did some CGI touchups on it. Those cost $400,000! They also had to do some CGI touchups on the palace floor, as it scuffs easily, and those cost $200,000. This was painful because they watch their budget very carefully. He have an example of when scenes occur on a ship, they only allow so many camera angles that show a window in the background, so they don't have to pay for a starscape.

The way they are telling the story, I think it is one I would enjoy and be hooked by if I did not know the books. And since the majority of its viewers have not read the books and are loving it, that seems to be the case and ensures it will continue.

Of course, I have read the books, so I'm not in the category of going into it blind and having the luxury of being able to judge it only for what it is. I accept that changes to the story had to be made to visualize it, and not just because no studio wanted an anthology without continuing characters. The original three novels (which really were just previously published short stories Asimov cobbled together into book form) are utterly threadbare in terms of world-building and character development. Their reputation rests on the ideas: the idea that a science could predict the future, and the ways the crises are resolved. In the show, although they have portrayed 2 crises (out of about 7 from the books through this point in the storyline), the way they are resolved is somewhat different. In the books, the resolutions are typically brought about through the cleverness of the main character. I don't like to use this word, but the book's approach is maybe more cerebral? But even still, since the characters in the book are so thinly sketched, these clever resolutions have the tendency toward making the heroes seem like smart-assed Mary Sues. I think the show does a much better job of developing the character...though they often don't feel much like the character from the book. In the second season, I got very excited a few times, because in certain places the show felt a lot more like the books, in pulling in themes and plot developments. After the fact, I found myself asking myself what it said that I liked the show so much, yet got the most excited when it got closest to the books. I guess one way to look at it would be to think of the show as being like a sine wave, if you know what that is. If the baseline is the books, the show is the sine wave. It oscillates back and forth across the baseline. It gets to the same place as the baseline/book, but takes different paths to get there.

So does any of this make any sense?
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Thanks for summarising the interviews with Goyer, but I’m going to have to check them out for myself too. I like hearing Goyer talk. I’ve listened to the season 1 podcast but have been holding off on the season 2 podcast.

I have the art book on pre-order still and can’t wait for that to be released. It’s exciting that they’re looking at other merchandise too. There’s a lot of ships and props that could be replicated. The Prime Radiant would be an instant buy for me too!

I do recall Goyer mentioning in the podcast for season 1 that the story wasn’t completed so I’m really interested to see where they take it.

I want to talk a bit more spoilers though.

Major spoilers from here on out.
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I was surprised they introduced the Mule so soon. I expected he’d be some way off. Even though I haven’t read beyond a few chapters of the first book, I was aware of the Mule prior to watching the show. He’s also name dropped in the first episode of Season 1. I remember you mentioned that you could see Doug Jones playing the Mule based on how he was described in the books.

We know now that the Mule is being played by Mikael Persprandt (Beorn from the Hobbit movies). How does he match your vision of the character from the books? Mikael is clearly very different to Doug Jones in body type and stature.

When he walked on screen for the first time I got chills. I’m really excited to see more of him in season 3. I wonder if we’ll see the Visi Sonor or if his blue eyes are meant to communicate that he doesn’t actually need the instrument?

I was surprised by the two major deaths in the finale - Hober Mallow and Salvor Hardin. I’m aware Sal’s story wraps up in the first book but I figured the show version of the character would be around a bit longer. I really like the actress who plays Sal and was pretty sad to see her go.

I really liked Hober Mallow too. I kept thinking Brother Constant would use that device to swap places with him and save him at
the last minute but sadly that didn’t happen.

The sine wave metaphor makes perfect sense and I get the feeling that’s what Goyer and the team were going for when adapting the source material.

It’s great to see that they’re trying to keep the budget under control. I’m still astounded that season 1 had such a low budget.

Anytime Demerzel is on screen, it’s magic. I really loved her story this season. Laura Birn plays her brilliantly. Her performance reminds of Michael Fassbender’s performance as David and Walther in Prometheus and Alien: Covenant. She displays such a range of emotions but she also manages to show that her programming prevents her from doing the things she wants, holding her back.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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I'm about to go for my Saturday drive in the country, so this will just be a brief reply. Yes, the mule is being by played by the same actor who played Beorn in the hobbit movies. He doesn't really match the description in the book at all. If you took Doug Jones and put a big nose on him, he would be the mule. He would especially be good at playing the mule when he was incognito and nobody realizes who he is because he has a very haunted, childlike, plaintive side that Jones would portray brilliantly. And Jones could also play him fine when his cover is blown and he is completely authoritative. Doug Jones is just a brilliant actor and he is quite probably the best thing about Star Trek Discovery.

Speaking of Michael Fassbender, if this series ever gets far enough along to portray the altar ego of Demerzel, Michael Fassbender would be a perfect choice for him!
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Olorin wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 6:19 am Not sure why Herbert had no aliens.
Probably because he was more interested in the human condition, like Asimov. He never got to finish his story though, and we don't really know exactly what was found during the Scattering. The great Enemy in Paul's visions was probably the more advanced version of the Face Dancers that Herbert hinted at, but it may have been something entirely alien.

Assuming by 'aliens' you mean intelligent, self-aware life not from Earth, Shai Hulud were definitely not from Earth. Their intelligence is debatable though. I am pretty sure Herbert referred to them as "mindless guardians", not including the worms after Leto II that were embedded with his scattered consciousness.
KRDS

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Olorin wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 1:16 pm It's been forever since I read the Dune books, but could the great enemy have been the return of artificial intelligence that Herbert's son and Kevin Anderson used as the villains for their Dune novels?
I highly doubt it was anything that ham fisted. Dune was all about the nature and future of humanity, for both real humans and force-evolved humans. He did not really need aliens when he had humans that evolved so much they literally were alien - Tleilaxu, gholas, Face Dancers, Guild Navigators, Futars, et cetera. Leto II was breeding to create humans that were invisible to prescience. Herbert was building to an ending that seemed to involve a Tleilaxu creation coming back from the Scattering. The Honored Matres returning from the scattering were running from something that terrified them. Herbert implied it was those two god-like Face Dancers at the end of Chapterhouse. They seemed to be pulling all the strings, and seemed to be invisible to prescience. I think he was bringing the Golden Path full circle and ending it with them.
KRDS

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Here's an article where Asimov's daughter Robyn talked about liking the character development on the show, and admitting that her father's focus in writing stories was telling the story, not writing interesting characters.

https://collider.com/foundation-season- ... e%20series.

I've also been meaning to mention that the director of a number of episodes of the show, as well as one of its executive producers, is Roxann Dawson, better known to us Star Trek fans as well B'lanna Torres on Voyager. She was featured on one of the official podcasts from later in the season.

One thing David Goyer has mentioned in the podcasts that is bothersome to me is that it's taking them two years to produce a season and it doesn't seem like they can shorten that any. That means that if they go the full run that they intend to, it will be 12 more years before the show finishes. I might not still be alive then, and if I am, I'll definitely be getting along in years!
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Olorin wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 6:03 am ...

One thing David Goyer has mentioned in the podcasts that is bothersome to me is that it's taking them two years to produce a season and it doesn't seem like they can shorten that any. That means that if they go the full run that they intend to, it will be 12 more years before the show finishes. I might not still be alive then, and if I am, I'll definitely be getting along in years!
Just re-read the books... shouldn't take you but a few months of leisurely reading... and think how many times you can do it in less than 12 years.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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Deimos wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 11:39 pm
Just re-read the books... shouldn't take you but a few months of leisurely reading... and think how many times you can do it in less than 12 years.
Unfortunately, reading is something that seems to have fallen out of my life, but regrettably, buying books has not. I'm not sure why that is, but for a couple years now I just seem to have no drive to read. Maybe it's the fact that my job eats my brain, and when I retire I will have both more motivation and more time to read. in the meantime, I try not to buy new books, or to re-read ones that I have already read, in light of the fact that I have over 400 books that I have not yet read. A couple of years ago I calculated that if optimistically I read one book a month, I would have to live to 98 to read all the books I've already bought.

However, I did re-read the entire foundation series during the summer of 2021 in anticipation of the series starting on TV. It was against my better judgment and wishes, as I felt like I'd appreciate the show more if the books were less fresh in my mind, given how widely I knew the show would stray from the books. However, I had not read them in quite a number of years, so I did anyway. And I have felt some urge to re-read them more recently. The number one book I would like to reread is the lord of the rings, and I am absolutely refusing to let myself do that, so no lesser book will get re-read either. And yes, the association that awards the Hugo awards can go take a leap for their 1966 Hugo for foundation as the best science fiction novel over Lord of the rings.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Olorin wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 3:31 am ...Unfortunately, reading is something that seems to have fallen out of my life, but regrettably, buying books has not. I'm not sure why that is, but for a couple years now I just seem to have no drive to read. Maybe it's the fact that my job eats my brain, and when I retire I will have both more motivation and more time to read. in the meantime, I try not to buy new books, or to re-read ones that I have already read, in light of the fact that I have over 400 books that I have not yet read. A couple of years ago I calculated that if optimistically I read one book a month, I would have to live to 98 to read all the books I've already bought. ...
I read something about the Japanese and reading ...IIRC they have a word that is used for the ownership of a lot of unread books
N.B. you have to own the books,.
The word has positive connotations... it means something along the lines of having hope; that is you have amassed a lot of books because you hope someday to read them (which implies hope for a long life) .
So there is an actual word that says it's good to have houseful of book that you have not yet read.
I would say I've read about 6 new books a year since I retired in late 2016 . (I've reread at least 4 times that many).
Half of those new reads were from my shelves.
(How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time :D )

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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I didn’t post this when it broke because I was locked out of my account - thanks Jash and Val for saving me!

But there were some production issues and a dispute over budget. It has been speculated that rising costs due to inflation in Prague is what caused the dispute. Production was halted and actors were informed to go home.

Ultimately the budget was agreed on but David S Goyer was originally reported as having given up his role as show runner.

The article was later corrected to say that he still retains this title but no further clarification has been given.

I have a very basic understanding of how all of this works in regards to artistic credit and titles as agreed between studios and unions. So I see two realistic scenarios. The first - and ultimately the worst - is that David S Goyer has been removed completely as show runner but retains the title because of the work he’d already done on season 3. If we see a season 4 he’ll no longer have that title and a new show runner will be brought on board to fully take over the reins.

The second - and more hopeful for the future of the show - is that he has had to give up his show running duties due to other commitments for season 3 because of the delays with the actors strikes and then also the delay with the budget dispute, so someone else has had to step in to fill that role. This is backed up by him having other projects in the works with Apple currently that are either going into production or will be soon.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv ... 34630/amp/

I do really hope it’s the latter and not the former. Changing show runners could seriously impact the overall vision of the show and there will almost definitely be a tonal shift.


In other, non Foundation news, Apple has ordered an adaption of the Neuromancer by William Gibson:

https://www.apple.com/uk/tv-pr/news/202 ... am-gibson/

Hopefully this won’t meet the same fate as Metropolis.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

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Yeah, I read about the whole budget battle and demotion of Goyer. What's even more disturbing than that is that the guy who's now calling the shots on the day to day stuff is a past president of Skydance known for cost cutting. I don't recall whether we ever heard how much this show costs though it looks like a fortune. I think it safe to say it'll look less expensive. As Foundation, whether book series or TV series, is about ideas, that shouldn't necessarily impact it, other than that there is the expectation that a show like this will look incredible because to most people sci fi = big effects. If they cut back on the visual element, it'll be jarring.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
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