Yeah, to me season 2 felt like they took a bunch of ideas they liked, threw them into a bag, gave it a shake, and tried to pour out a story. The season felt like they were always flying by the seat of their pants. I mean, it wasn't awful (unlike what some on YouTube would have you believe), but it definitely was not in the same league as the first season. The first season felt planned out in advance, we're going to do a, then B, then C, and that's what they did.
Did you catch the big wink-wink-nudge-nudge at the end of the Picard finale that tied in to the first season of Strange New Worlds?
Yeah, Season 3 is a bit of a puzzle. One of Patrick Stewart's prerequisites to do that show was that it not be a continuation of TNG, as he had no interest in doing that. Yet the entire main cast will be back next season, not to mention that most of the Picard cast is not returning (Alison Pill, Santiago Cabrera, Isa Briones, and Evan Evagora). So at a minimum I think it will feel like a merger of the two series, if not a reboot of TNG. Which PS did not want. Yes I doubt anything happens on this show without his express approval, so who knows?
Re: Picard returns!
102I think I caught it
. I also enjoyed the nod to Star Trek IV with the punk rocker on the bus in Picard season 2
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Re: Picard returns!
103You can watch this good video for some of the answers to your question as to the whys of Picard S3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRtx2ekTF2s
For me, the entire show has been a mixed bag. S1 was awful, sorry to say. A squandered opportunity with a tired, at times non-sensical plotline, an unrecognizable Federation, and uninteresting characters. It didn't matter to me that it was all planned out when the plan was terribly flawed to begin with. Don't even get me started on the logic of placing Picard in an android body that is just as frail and limited as his old, organic one. He really doesn't seem to have any of the advantages that Data did, does he?
S2 started out great, with an interesting premise, a good mystery, and teasing a couple of characters that we had longed to see return to the screen. It didn't take long to devolve into a mess, replete with convolution, confusion, and unevenness that only got worse as it progressed. They took a five-episode story and stretched it out into ten hours, much of it filled with young Picard wandering around a basement looking for his mom.
As for that Easter egg you're referring to, yes, I'm glad they finally fixed that glaring inconsistency that has been lurking in the background for years.
For me, the entire show has been a mixed bag. S1 was awful, sorry to say. A squandered opportunity with a tired, at times non-sensical plotline, an unrecognizable Federation, and uninteresting characters. It didn't matter to me that it was all planned out when the plan was terribly flawed to begin with. Don't even get me started on the logic of placing Picard in an android body that is just as frail and limited as his old, organic one. He really doesn't seem to have any of the advantages that Data did, does he?
S2 started out great, with an interesting premise, a good mystery, and teasing a couple of characters that we had longed to see return to the screen. It didn't take long to devolve into a mess, replete with convolution, confusion, and unevenness that only got worse as it progressed. They took a five-episode story and stretched it out into ten hours, much of it filled with young Picard wandering around a basement looking for his mom.
As for that Easter egg you're referring to, yes, I'm glad they finally fixed that glaring inconsistency that has been lurking in the background for years.
This Space for Rent
Re: Picard returns!
104OK, I will risk getting you started by posting my thoughts on that. There was no way they were going to show Picard around the turn of the 25th century without addressing his Irumodic Syndrome, which he suffered with in Q's anti-time future. Would he actually have it? What did it mean? So, they established that he did indeed develop a brain issue that was going to kill him, though they never called it Irumodic. Remember, in All Good Things Beverly told him he had a defect, of which Irumodic Syndrome was one of the possible consequences. So they left it vague in an apparent tip of the hat to that uncertainty.Valkrist wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:58 am Don't even get me started on the logic of placing Picard in an android body that is just as frail and limited as his old, organic one. He really doesn't seem to have any of the advantages that Data did, does he?
I thought that Picard's struggles with this condition would be an arc that would stretch across all three seasons of the show. The writers probably decided, wisely, I think, that fans were not going to want to watch their hero slowly losing to Space Alzheimer's across the entire course of the series, so they wrapped that arc at the end of Season 1. The way this played out took me totally by surprise. I was sure that the new android body would end up housing Data's consciousness, the Data download that had been living in the simulator. That Data instead wanted to experience death was a surprise to me. And that Picard actually succumbed to his illness also surprised me. But there awaits the android body, and they had already established in the show that a person's actual consciousness, not just a copy of it, could be put into the body. I suppose I should have realized then that this was meant as a mechanism to give Picard a new body without accusations of him no longer being the "real" Picard (though some of those occurred anyway).
Of course, they also realized that the Picard everyone has known for so many years would not be very happy about being installed in an immortal body, and thus his first question is, tell him that they didn't make him immortal. I don't think it is much of a leap from there to "tuning" the synthetic body's capabilities to be essentially the same as a human body. Picard would probably not have liked being super-powered, and would we really want to see 80-year-old Patrick Stewart, or rather his stunt double, throwing people around like ragdolls? It would have looked unintentionally hilarious. Thus, while part of me was disappointed that Data was not resurrected in the body, I understood and accepted the decision to give it to Picard. The Data that was living in the simulation was the download of him that was unsuccessfully installed in B4 and therefore wasn't the "real" Data that we had known for decades, and would not have had Data's final memories aboard the Enterprise or the Scimitar. And of course, recreating Data would have gone totally against Brent Spiner's oft-stated aversion to continue playing him.
I also got very tired of the flashbacks to young Picard, and was not pleased with the underlying premise. First, have we made so little progress in treating mental illness by the 24th century? And Picard's father was such a monster that his solution was to lock his wife in her room when she was having an episode, instead of turning over every stone to get her the help she needed? Did we need to darken Picard's character so much by giving him such unhappy childhood memories? And lastly, would those experiences be the reason why he couldn't hold onto romantic relationships? I wasn't convinced.Valkrist wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:58 am S2 started out great, with an interesting premise, a good mystery, and teasing a couple of characters that we had longed to see return to the screen. It didn't take long to devolve into a mess, replete with convolution, confusion, and unevenness that only got worse as it progressed. They took a five-episode story and stretched it out into ten hours, much of it filled with young Picard wandering around a basement looking for his mom.
I don't know how I feel about the revelation of Q's mortality. I don't recall that it was ever stated that his race were immortal, but that was certainly my impression. And do I understand correctly that he created this entire dark timeline simply to set Picard a challenge that would lead him to understand and forgive himself? That's a bit outlandish. Why not just snap his fingers and remove Picard's guilt? And if he holds Picard so dear that he would do this, give him a hug, etc., then why did he give him a bloody nose in the second episode? Does he also have Space Alzheimer's?
An aside on Q. Earlier on, John De Lancie had spoken about how many scenes he had filmed and more or less stated they'd be spread out across Seasons 2 and 3. Was that misdirection or did he misunderstand? Or is he coming back in Season 3? The Season 2 finale certainly had finality as regards Q. Are we going to undo that?
Although on the whole I have liked the series and will say I prefer having received what they have given us vs never having gotten the series, it has its share of missed opportunities. They introduce a new cast and can't figure out what to do with most of them. Elnor and Cris were seldom more than eye-candy. Elnor's story was paper-thin and Cris' only slightly meatier. And Jurati...can we ever have someone who is brilliant without being a neurotic mess? Soji had a good arc in Season 1 and all but vanished in Season 2, though of course Isa Briones continued in a new role. Yet was her character so noteworthy that she deserved an invitation to the Travelers? I think the only characters, other than Picard himself, that they did much with were Seven and Rafi. I'm guessing that's the prevailing sentiment and that is why they will both be back.
And let's talk about the elephant in the room, the gray-skinned cybernetic dominatrix that we call the Borg Queen. When the first trailer for Season 2 aired and it showed the scene of her reaching out to caress Jurati, I said this isn't going to end well. And as the season begins and we see that they are going to take her along on the mission, I said this really isn't going to end well. And I will stand by that. Here are some specific nitpicks. When was a Borg Queen ever persuaded by an individual not take complete control and instead let them retain some control? One could argue that this is a different Borg Queen, once who has seen the Collective completely destroyed and is so desperate to establish some sort of new Collective that she is willing to make compromises, but I don't know that I buy that. And once she arrives back in the Delta Quadrant to join the existing collective in this timeline, how does she persuade the existing Queen to do things her way? Does she kill her and take over? I would think that the existing Queen, as soon as she realized the extent of Jurati's aberration, would destroy her. And what of the assimilated mercenaries who were killed in France? Were they not destined to play any significant part in history, such that killing them does not alter the timeline?
And leaving a 25th century starship captain in the past, and his sharing of his knowledge of the future with his new family, does that not affect the timeline?
And Guinan...I was expecting so much more from Whoopi Goldberg's return. Instead we got two glorified cameos, from a rather different Guinan. I suppose we can rationalize that "she's in a different place" in her life at this point and that's why she seems so different, but at her age and with all she's lived through, how many new places in her life does she have? I will say that I really liked the actress who played young Guinan, even though she was completely different from the younger-still, yet exactly as we were used to, Guinan in 19th Century San Francisco (who was written out of existence in the altered timeline). And after all our expectations that we would finally get an explanation of what happened between Guinan and Q, we get what, a drink and a scream?
So, what did I like about this season? Lots more Orla Brady, for starters. I've really liked her since she was in Fringe in 2008-2013. Some complained that Laris' husband was given an off-screen death just to free her up for an involvement with Picard, but it's not clear if we ever really got, or will get, that involvement. And how convenient that the person who helps Picard in the past just happens to be an ancestor of Laris. Oh wait, I'm starting to nitpick again. But I did like they connected back to Assignment: Earth. And I was amazed that they were able to bring back Wil Wheaton and keep it a total secret. And yes, I enjoyed seeing Wesley again, because they have tied off a Next Gen plot point that was left hanging for so many years. So, that was cool.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
106Watched the teaser for the final season of Picard. Wow, just the cast giving voice overs while their pictures are on screen, but I kind of got a little choked up if I am being honest. TNG was "my trek" so to speak. I love those characters, and while Picard has been far from perfect, just experiencing Patrick Stewart playing Picard again has been wonderful for me and although Picard wasnt supposed to be a TNG reunion, having the original cast back for one last adventure, all together (minus Data), just makes me smile and also a little sad as this is most likely the final FINAL chapter of these characters playing these roles. Very bittersweet for me.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Re: Picard returns!
107It is bittersweet and I hope it is a worthy send-off. I thought the first season of Picard was pretty good but the second season was pretty weak, so anyone's guess how the third comes out. But at least it got encouraging words from some of the actors. Marina Sirtis said while Nemesis "discarded" them, Season 3 of Picard "cherished" them. Levar Burton said it was a love poem to them. So hopefully at least the characters are treated well, however good or bad the season is over all. But of course, I hope it's great. TOS was "my" Star Trek, but I grew to cherish the TNG cast possibly even more, and knowing that they are all really good friends (as opposed to the fractious nature of the TOS cast, at least vis a vis Shatner) makes them even more special. Most people thought Roddenberry couldn't pull a rabbit out of a hat twice (and for two years it looked like they were right), but ultimately he showed that he could. TNG is certainly the most beloved of the post-TOS series and who knows, maybe more so than TOS itself?
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
108Feb 16
And the Titan is pretty gorgeous.
https://trekmovie.com/2022/09/08/watch- ... -and-more/
Salivating.
And the Titan is pretty gorgeous.
https://trekmovie.com/2022/09/08/watch- ... -and-more/
Salivating.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
109Well,say what you want about the series, this teaser tickled all my feels!
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Re: Picard returns!
111Annie Wersching, who played the Borg Queen in season 2, has died of cancer at 45. Very sad!
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
112I saw that, very sad news indeed... so young
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Re: Picard returns!
113I don't know whether to flag this as a spoiler for tonight's episode or not, because if you don't know in advance that it is there and don't look for it, you won't know. So take that as you will and proceed if you wish…
Amongst the other things in the Daystrom Station's vaults that were not focused upon during the episode were a second edition genesis device, the body of James T Kirk, and the body of Jonathan Archer. This was revealed in this weeks trek culture ups and downs video, and then I went back to the episode itself and verified them.
Amongst the other things in the Daystrom Station's vaults that were not focused upon during the episode were a second edition genesis device, the body of James T Kirk, and the body of Jonathan Archer. This was revealed in this weeks trek culture ups and downs video, and then I went back to the episode itself and verified them.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
114Interesting finds. I just started binging the season to catch up... I've been quite busy living back and forth between 2 cities and planning a wedding
but so far I am really really loving Picard season 3. I know Picard wasnt supposed to be a TNG season 8 type situation, but right now, seeing all these characters and my nostalgia, I am loving it!
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Re: Picard returns!
115Right, it was never supposed to be a TNG reunion. Patrick Stewart had no interest in doing that. They lured him back with offering him the opportunity to explore a totally different phase of life for Picard. And after two seasons whose reviews were mixed at best, everybody, including presumably PS, said bring on the TNG reunion! I just hope they don't kill off any legacy characters. I'm already worrying about the fate of a certain legacy character from a different Trek series who was revealed last week to have been replaced, so....
FWIW, I liked the first season. I thought it was interesting and at least gave us a glimpse of what we all wanted to see, the state of things in the aftermath of the Romulan supernova. Parts of it may have been a little creaky, but on the whole I liked it and thought it was a worthwhile endeavor. Then Season 2 came along. I didn't hate it but it took me a while to make some sort of peace with it. I have to say, these serialized shows go down so much better when you can binge them instead of watching weekly. Thing is, with Star Trek I just can't do that. I'd have to stay totally off the internet for two months to avoid spoilers. People nowadays see no problems with posting titles that say things like, hey what did everybody think about [fill in the big twist from the episode].
Anyway, I'm still somewhat trying to figure out the premise of Season 2. Did Q set up that Confederation timeline just to force Picard to reexamine his past and forgive himself for his mother's death? If so...really? wasn't there a simpler way to do that? It all just felt like the writers said, we want Q, we want a Borg queen, we want Guinan, let's throw in some time travel, put it all in the cocktail shaker, and see what comes out.
Getting back to Season 3, I am generally liking it, but I could certainly point at things that could've been much better done. The big climax of last week's episode was made possible only be doing two really stupid things that anybody could tell you were bad ideas. I consider that weak writing and wish they would tighten up on that.
FWIW, I liked the first season. I thought it was interesting and at least gave us a glimpse of what we all wanted to see, the state of things in the aftermath of the Romulan supernova. Parts of it may have been a little creaky, but on the whole I liked it and thought it was a worthwhile endeavor. Then Season 2 came along. I didn't hate it but it took me a while to make some sort of peace with it. I have to say, these serialized shows go down so much better when you can binge them instead of watching weekly. Thing is, with Star Trek I just can't do that. I'd have to stay totally off the internet for two months to avoid spoilers. People nowadays see no problems with posting titles that say things like, hey what did everybody think about [fill in the big twist from the episode].
Anyway, I'm still somewhat trying to figure out the premise of Season 2. Did Q set up that Confederation timeline just to force Picard to reexamine his past and forgive himself for his mother's death? If so...really? wasn't there a simpler way to do that? It all just felt like the writers said, we want Q, we want a Borg queen, we want Guinan, let's throw in some time travel, put it all in the cocktail shaker, and see what comes out.
Getting back to Season 3, I am generally liking it, but I could certainly point at things that could've been much better done. The big climax of last week's episode was made possible only be doing two really stupid things that anybody could tell you were bad ideas. I consider that weak writing and wish they would tighten up on that.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
116ooooh.... i missed that news, who was replaced?!Olorin wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 11:28 am Right, it was never supposed to be a TNG reunion. Patrick Stewart had no interest in doing that. They lured him back with offering him the opportunity to explore a totally different phase of life for Picard. And after two seasons whose reviews were mixed at best, everybody, including presumably PS, said bring on the TNG reunion! I just hope they don't kill off any legacy characters. I'm already worrying about the fate of a certain legacy character from a different Trek series who was revealed last week to have been replaced, so....
Anyway, I'm still somewhat trying to figure out the premise of Season 2. Did Q set up that Confederation timeline just to force Picard to reexamine his past and forgive himself for his mother's death? If so...really? wasn't there a simpler way to do that? It all just felt like the writers said, we want Q, we want a Borg queen, we want Guinan, let's throw in some time travel, put it all in the cocktail shaker, and see what comes out.
Season 2 was kind of clunky. I mean, Q did have some cockamamie ideas for teaching Picard lessons in the past, so I guess the Confederation timeline isnt THAT far fetched??? But it was nice to see Q and Guinan again, and those characters are intertwined with the Borg and Picard, that it made sense-ish, to me.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Re: Picard returns!
117Seven figured out that Tuvok had been replaced.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
118oh ok, i thought you meant casting replacement! haha oops!
and that last episode... spoiler-ish if you havent seen it, but you should have seen it coming, seeing the TNG cast sit around the table together, probably for the last time... whew that just kicked me in the nostalgic Trekkie feels!
and that last episode... spoiler-ish if you havent seen it, but you should have seen it coming, seeing the TNG cast sit around the table together, probably for the last time... whew that just kicked me in the nostalgic Trekkie feels!
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Re: Picard returns!
119I kind of wondered if you had that misunderstanding.
The table scene didn't really give me the feels, though I did pick up on it. Maybe it's because it's just so damned dark on this ship that you can't see anything! One thing that really did give me the feels was first season when Picard went to visit Riker and Troi. I sobbed when they hugged.
The table scene didn't really give me the feels, though I did pick up on it. Maybe it's because it's just so damned dark on this ship that you can't see anything! One thing that really did give me the feels was first season when Picard went to visit Riker and Troi. I sobbed when they hugged.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
120They definitely do like to keep things dark these days!
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Re: Picard returns!
121Well BC, if last week gave you the feels, I hope you have tissues ready for this week.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
122I havent watched...I've seen some little things on the net, but I was trying to wait to watch the final 2 episodes at once.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Re: Picard returns!
123And, it is over. And I wept. More than once.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
124Nearly five years after we first learned of Picard's return, it is all done, so it's time for some thoughts on it. For now I won't say anything spoilerish about Thursday night's final episode, in case anyone hasn't seen it yet, but will circle back to it in a week or so.
When it was first announced that Patrick Stewart would be returning to the character of Picard for a streaming series, fan expectations were off the charts. Picard was one of the very most loved of all Star Trek characters (certainly my favorite one) and had been the lead of the very well loved and respected TNG series. To catch up with him again after so long seemed like a dream come true. This announcement came about 2 years after the X Files had returned, so I knew to temper my expectations with a dose of skepticism. And in the initial announcement, Stewart had stressed it was not going to be TNG 2.0, and Picard would be in a very different place in his life, so that further tamped it down a bit for me. And I think personally I was well-served by those cautions, as I could go into it and appreciate it for what it was, instead of comparing it to TNG, or other Trek series, or any other beloved show like peak Game of Thrones.
On the whole, I quite liked the first season of Picard. We got at least one thing we had been wanting: an overview of the galactopolitical situation following the destruction of Romulus. Was it what we wanted? I guess that is in the eye of the beholder. The Federation was in a darker, more selfish and cynical place, which was the explicit attempt of the production to reflect the darker, more divided political situation of current America. Star Trek has always used allegory, but typically, it has used some alien race's problems to pose a mirror to our current society. We could be tricked into thinking about how topic of the week (and for an example, let's pick racism, as reflected in TOS' Let That Be Your Last Battlefield) is such an awful thing that we need to learn to deal with, while seeing the utopian Federation as the goal we are striving to achieve. The Picard series to some extent turned all that on its head by showing the Federation itself as somewhat losing its way, turning a blind eye and cold shoulder toward the Romulans' plight, discriminating against an entire people (androids, in this case) because of the actions of a few, and justifying it by saying it was necessary to keep Federation member worlds from seceding. This was unnerving and took away the warm security blanket of knowing that despite the sins of aliens of the week, the Federation would always be safe harbor. If this were to set the stage upon which Picard would both find new purpose and guide the Federation back to a more enlightened condition, it would be worth it. Picard definitely found challenges to snap him out of his personal funk, having to confront his demons by visiting the Artifact, reconnecting with the Rikers, helping the androids, and most of all by getting a second chance, actually a real first chance, to say goodbye to Data. But did the Federation learn anything from this? That's a little hard to say. Riker was able to muster a (copy/paste) fleet to stand down the Romulan attack on the synth world, and Picard apparently felt rejuvenated enough to return to Starfleet in some capacity (as reflected by his speech to the Academy at the beginning of the second season). But we never really got another good look at the state of affairs in the Federation through the remaining two seasons. Beyond all the philosophical musings, the first season set up a mystery and slowly worked toward resolving it. How satisfying it was is in the eye of the beholder, but I liked it.
And then the second season was a bit of a train wreck. I think that in the pre-production prior to the first season, the showrunners knew the story they wanted to tell in the first season and had time to work on it. After the first season, they had only the time between it and the second to come up with an idea and execute it. And it showed. It felt like they said, hmmm, let's do time travel, let's do the Borg in some way, let's bring back Guinan, let's bring back Q, and maybe somehow let's homage Star Trek IV, and they threw it all in the blender and said let's see what sticks when it splatters on the wall. After all the fanfare of having Stewart appear on The View to invite Whoopi Goldberg back, she was next to totally wasted. Guinan did not feel much like Guinan. She was much happier, more just-one-of-the-guys than the quiet, insightful Guinan we remembered. And she was only in two episodes. Yes, we got younger Guinan, and although she was an interesting character and the actor gave a great performance, she looked nothing like Whoopi. I guess they did not want to pay to deage Whoopi, so they simply recast. And Q...why bring him back only to kill him off? This reminded me of one of the X Files most annoying habits, bringing back fan-favorite secondary characters only to kill them off. The season also showed that the showrunners realized that it was time to unload most of the core cast of the series. They never really knew what to do with most of them after the first season and struggled to give them something to do in the second (hence Elnar's early death). They did give Agnes an interesting arc (though from the first trailer for the second season, I said "Dumb ass is going to get herself assimilated."). What was good about the season? For me, it was good to see Guinan and Q again, despite underutilizing them and despite completely failing to deliver on the back-history hinted at in Q Who in TNG's second season. (And that whole Q-summoning bit? Really?) I also thought the new take on the Borg Queen was interesting, and the late Annie Wersching gave a good performance that was not trying to carbon copy Alice Krige. But at the end of the day, the thing that stood out most from this season, and in a negative way, were all the flashback scenes of young Picard. Was this darkening of his character really what we wanted? And really, am I understanding correctly that Q's creation of the Confederation timeline was solely to give Picard a puzzle whose solution would lead him to be able to forgive himself?
Thus, after all of that the series essentially had nowhere to go but up. And up it went! The third season was definitely very much better than the second. It did again have a feeling of let's see what comes out of the blender, but I think in part the result cohered better and in part I was inclined to be more accepting, since this was to be the last season and was to bring back all the other cast. I think there was a strong element of "let's provide all the fan service that folks missed with the first two seasons," but that mostly worked. I was sad to see some older characters brought back only to be killed off, but I guess at least now we know what happened to them after the run of TNG.
It seems like the fans received the third season very well, so well they are now clamoring for a continuation that they've dubbed Star Trek: Legacy, to continue the tale of the early 25th century. Kurzman and Co definitely responded to such desire once before by creating Strange New Worlds and I think they are probably thinking about whether they can do this. I would say we could be sure it's full steam ahead, but for the fact that Paramount is going to start cutting back to pay for the merger with Showtime. I will say that the merger of HBO and Discovery ruined HBO, and I'm desperately hoping that will not be the case for Paramount. We'll see.
When it was first announced that Patrick Stewart would be returning to the character of Picard for a streaming series, fan expectations were off the charts. Picard was one of the very most loved of all Star Trek characters (certainly my favorite one) and had been the lead of the very well loved and respected TNG series. To catch up with him again after so long seemed like a dream come true. This announcement came about 2 years after the X Files had returned, so I knew to temper my expectations with a dose of skepticism. And in the initial announcement, Stewart had stressed it was not going to be TNG 2.0, and Picard would be in a very different place in his life, so that further tamped it down a bit for me. And I think personally I was well-served by those cautions, as I could go into it and appreciate it for what it was, instead of comparing it to TNG, or other Trek series, or any other beloved show like peak Game of Thrones.
On the whole, I quite liked the first season of Picard. We got at least one thing we had been wanting: an overview of the galactopolitical situation following the destruction of Romulus. Was it what we wanted? I guess that is in the eye of the beholder. The Federation was in a darker, more selfish and cynical place, which was the explicit attempt of the production to reflect the darker, more divided political situation of current America. Star Trek has always used allegory, but typically, it has used some alien race's problems to pose a mirror to our current society. We could be tricked into thinking about how topic of the week (and for an example, let's pick racism, as reflected in TOS' Let That Be Your Last Battlefield) is such an awful thing that we need to learn to deal with, while seeing the utopian Federation as the goal we are striving to achieve. The Picard series to some extent turned all that on its head by showing the Federation itself as somewhat losing its way, turning a blind eye and cold shoulder toward the Romulans' plight, discriminating against an entire people (androids, in this case) because of the actions of a few, and justifying it by saying it was necessary to keep Federation member worlds from seceding. This was unnerving and took away the warm security blanket of knowing that despite the sins of aliens of the week, the Federation would always be safe harbor. If this were to set the stage upon which Picard would both find new purpose and guide the Federation back to a more enlightened condition, it would be worth it. Picard definitely found challenges to snap him out of his personal funk, having to confront his demons by visiting the Artifact, reconnecting with the Rikers, helping the androids, and most of all by getting a second chance, actually a real first chance, to say goodbye to Data. But did the Federation learn anything from this? That's a little hard to say. Riker was able to muster a (copy/paste) fleet to stand down the Romulan attack on the synth world, and Picard apparently felt rejuvenated enough to return to Starfleet in some capacity (as reflected by his speech to the Academy at the beginning of the second season). But we never really got another good look at the state of affairs in the Federation through the remaining two seasons. Beyond all the philosophical musings, the first season set up a mystery and slowly worked toward resolving it. How satisfying it was is in the eye of the beholder, but I liked it.
And then the second season was a bit of a train wreck. I think that in the pre-production prior to the first season, the showrunners knew the story they wanted to tell in the first season and had time to work on it. After the first season, they had only the time between it and the second to come up with an idea and execute it. And it showed. It felt like they said, hmmm, let's do time travel, let's do the Borg in some way, let's bring back Guinan, let's bring back Q, and maybe somehow let's homage Star Trek IV, and they threw it all in the blender and said let's see what sticks when it splatters on the wall. After all the fanfare of having Stewart appear on The View to invite Whoopi Goldberg back, she was next to totally wasted. Guinan did not feel much like Guinan. She was much happier, more just-one-of-the-guys than the quiet, insightful Guinan we remembered. And she was only in two episodes. Yes, we got younger Guinan, and although she was an interesting character and the actor gave a great performance, she looked nothing like Whoopi. I guess they did not want to pay to deage Whoopi, so they simply recast. And Q...why bring him back only to kill him off? This reminded me of one of the X Files most annoying habits, bringing back fan-favorite secondary characters only to kill them off. The season also showed that the showrunners realized that it was time to unload most of the core cast of the series. They never really knew what to do with most of them after the first season and struggled to give them something to do in the second (hence Elnar's early death). They did give Agnes an interesting arc (though from the first trailer for the second season, I said "Dumb ass is going to get herself assimilated."). What was good about the season? For me, it was good to see Guinan and Q again, despite underutilizing them and despite completely failing to deliver on the back-history hinted at in Q Who in TNG's second season. (And that whole Q-summoning bit? Really?) I also thought the new take on the Borg Queen was interesting, and the late Annie Wersching gave a good performance that was not trying to carbon copy Alice Krige. But at the end of the day, the thing that stood out most from this season, and in a negative way, were all the flashback scenes of young Picard. Was this darkening of his character really what we wanted? And really, am I understanding correctly that Q's creation of the Confederation timeline was solely to give Picard a puzzle whose solution would lead him to be able to forgive himself?
Thus, after all of that the series essentially had nowhere to go but up. And up it went! The third season was definitely very much better than the second. It did again have a feeling of let's see what comes out of the blender, but I think in part the result cohered better and in part I was inclined to be more accepting, since this was to be the last season and was to bring back all the other cast. I think there was a strong element of "let's provide all the fan service that folks missed with the first two seasons," but that mostly worked. I was sad to see some older characters brought back only to be killed off, but I guess at least now we know what happened to them after the run of TNG.
It seems like the fans received the third season very well, so well they are now clamoring for a continuation that they've dubbed Star Trek: Legacy, to continue the tale of the early 25th century. Kurzman and Co definitely responded to such desire once before by creating Strange New Worlds and I think they are probably thinking about whether they can do this. I would say we could be sure it's full steam ahead, but for the fact that Paramount is going to start cutting back to pay for the merger with Showtime. I will say that the merger of HBO and Discovery ruined HBO, and I'm desperately hoping that will not be the case for Paramount. We'll see.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
125I forgot to mention something good that came out of season two: an explanation of why the supposedly French Picard has a very British accent. The Picard family moved to Britain when the Nazis took over France. Apparently their stay in Britain was long enough that they retained the accent forevermore afterward.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
126I still haven't watched the last 2 episodes
i hope to watch in the next day or so. I was waiting for the last 2 eps, then I had to go out of town for work last Thursday so that delayed me. I've been avoiding spoilers but its almost impossible to not see the finale mentioned on social media, but all in all, it seems like it was highly praised and fans are asking for a "Star Trek Legacy" series. If Strange New Worlds is any indication, fan demand might get that show rolling.
![Sad :(](./images/smilies/icon_e_sad.gif)
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Re: Picard returns!
127I watched the final episode this weekend so I'll wait until BC has seen it before I post my thoughts.
This Space for Rent
Re: Picard returns!
128Showrunner Terry Matalas has discussed this with Alex Kurtzman and said Kurtzman has heard the fans "loud and clear," but it depends on fitting it into the overall plan and being able to do it justice.BladeCollector wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 3:08 am If Strange New Worlds is any indication, fan demand might get that show rolling.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
129Don't wait for me... you can go ahead and post your thoughts, I can avoid the thread until after I see it!Valkrist wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:15 am I watched the final episode this weekend so I'll wait until BC has seen it before I post my thoughts.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Re: Picard returns!
130I just finished... I'll post more thoughts when I am at the computer, don't want to type it all in my phone, but I will say THAT was some star trek!!! That's what I've been wanting since Nemesis and I'm sad Picard is over
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Re: Picard returns!
131Sorry for the triple post ![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
Wow, what a ride. When they first announced Patrick Stewart was coming back to play Picard I was super excited, seeing Picard back, FINALLY getting some Post-Nemesis/Romulus destruction/Prime Universe stories was what I've been waiting for for YEARS!
My sentiments on seasons 1 and 2 pretty much reflect what Olorin said. Its been mentioned a few times, Picard wasnt supposed to be a TNG sequel, but Season 3... THATS what I wanted from the get-go. Seeing that cast back together one more time was a nostalgia overload in such a good way. TNG was my childhood Trek, I will always have a special place for that cast in my heart and soul. The moment you see the cast back in their spots on the Enterprise-D's bridge, it just felt right. Finally addressing Brent Spiner's issues with playing an unaging android. I mean I've said it for years, if Star Trek can have the technology for warp and to make androids with positronic brains, they can make some lifelike skin![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
I was dreading those last 2 episodes, not because I didn't want to watch, but because I didn't want it to be over. I know I'm probably viewing it with really heavily tinted nostalgia filtered rose-colored glasses, but I can't help it. Season 3 of Picard is what I have wanted to see since Nemesis. 21 years later, I got it, almost half my life it took, but I got it. Not that it would be the same, but I really hope they find a place for the Star Trek Legacy show, I'd love to see 7 of 9 in the captain's chair moving the story along, with maybe a guest spot here and a reference there.
I'm sure I will have more thoughts later, but I just finished a 4 hour final for class, so my thoughts are a bit all jumped up right now.
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
Wow, what a ride. When they first announced Patrick Stewart was coming back to play Picard I was super excited, seeing Picard back, FINALLY getting some Post-Nemesis/Romulus destruction/Prime Universe stories was what I've been waiting for for YEARS!
My sentiments on seasons 1 and 2 pretty much reflect what Olorin said. Its been mentioned a few times, Picard wasnt supposed to be a TNG sequel, but Season 3... THATS what I wanted from the get-go. Seeing that cast back together one more time was a nostalgia overload in such a good way. TNG was my childhood Trek, I will always have a special place for that cast in my heart and soul. The moment you see the cast back in their spots on the Enterprise-D's bridge, it just felt right. Finally addressing Brent Spiner's issues with playing an unaging android. I mean I've said it for years, if Star Trek can have the technology for warp and to make androids with positronic brains, they can make some lifelike skin
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
I was dreading those last 2 episodes, not because I didn't want to watch, but because I didn't want it to be over. I know I'm probably viewing it with really heavily tinted nostalgia filtered rose-colored glasses, but I can't help it. Season 3 of Picard is what I have wanted to see since Nemesis. 21 years later, I got it, almost half my life it took, but I got it. Not that it would be the same, but I really hope they find a place for the Star Trek Legacy show, I'd love to see 7 of 9 in the captain's chair moving the story along, with maybe a guest spot here and a reference there.
I'm sure I will have more thoughts later, but I just finished a 4 hour final for class, so my thoughts are a bit all jumped up right now.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Re: Picard departs!
132OK, my thoughts on the final season....
The first two seasons, at Stewart's behest, mostly avoided giving the fans what they wanted, which was a TNG reunion. I'm guessing that due to fan reaction to the first two seasons, especially the second season, and knowing that this was likely the last opportunity to get the gang back together, they relented. And what a reunion it was!
I think the show managed to instill a sense of dread throughout. It started with Beverly's ominous "trust no one" message (shades of the X Files!), increased with the mystery of a new villain and a portal weapon that was not the worst thing she had, and went on from there. By the time we get to the last few episodes and we learn what's really going on, it was OMG how are they ever going to stop this? (Even though we knew they would.)
The show scratched a lot of itches. What happened to everyone? Did Picard and Beverly get together? Did Geordie find love? What's Worf been up to? What happened to the Borg after future-Janeway infected them with the neurolytic pathogen? Of course, some of these storylines beget new questions that did not get answered. How do two responsible people in the late 24th century, one of whom is a doctor, no less, not know about birth control? (I thought that was a bit too blatant an echo of Kirk and David.) Who was Geordie's wife? Where is she now? What did Worf do to the Enterprise E? (Yeah, that's a beta-canon story idea that they more or less canonized this season, that Worf was the captain of the Enterprise after Picard left to oversee the Romulan rescue effort. They did not exactly make it explicit here, but they strongly hinted.) Will Picard go back to Laris? Why did Beverly shun everyone after she left the ship?
Itch-scratching is great, but it's not a cureall. There were a few problems with the season. Let me say right off that these are minor quibbles that didn't much dampen my enjoyment of it. First, I couldn't seem to bring myself to care much about Jack Crusher, even after his parentage was revealed. And by the way, why does he have a British accent when he was raised by his American mother? (Yes, I know that Ed Speleers is British.) Did she send him to school in London? Did the Borg-altered DNA he inherited also encode for accent? Also, there was an occasional bit of lazy writing, or at least one bit. Anybody who thinks it's a bad idea to simultaneously plug Lore into the main computer AND invite changelings on board, raise your hand. It irks me when writers can only drive the plot forward by having people do really bone-headed things. At least the mess that caused our heroes was fairly quickly resolved.
Getting back to more positive things, the season did what I thought season 1 would do, resurrect Data. And really all it took was one line of dialog to make Spiner's opposition to playing the part again go away, "a body with the wisdom of age," or some such. Honestly, if I was planning on transferring my consciousness into a synthetic body, I'd make the body appear to be late 20s/early 30s. I'd also add a few inches to my height, make my eyes a brighter blue...but I digress. Similarly, I would not plan to have the consciousnesses of a few androids shoehorned in along with me, particularly one that was a psychopath. Sidebar: other than the mention that B4 and Lal went in also, there was no suggestion of them being in there. Anyway, I liked how they resolved the Lore takeover, by having Data's memories weaken him, with Spot being the coup de grace.
And as far as who the main villain was, and how the plot unfolded, I have to say, wow. Some might quibble that the Borg are overused, especially since all three seasons dealt with them in some way, but since this addressed their current state of affairs, all is forgiven on that score. And to see that despite all the past deaths of Borg Queens being undone by the creation of a new one with nary a beat missed, it was great to see that Janeway's stratagem did all but destroy them. And to seize on a line of dialog from 30+ years ago, about DNA being rewritten by Borg implants, and have it be the primary driver for the Borg's new scheme, to have changeling infiltrators corrupt the transporters with this DNA, and to have it affect only people young enough for their brains to still be developing, well done indeed. I thought that was quite clever. And speaking of Borg Queens.... I thought the queen of season 2 was a bit of a horror show, permanently without legs, and suspended and supported by cables like a humanoid spider in its web. But season 3's queen was full-on Alien Resurrection horror. The first time she appeared, albeit briefly and from behind, when I saw all the cables trailing over the floor, I thought, Alien egg chamber and the runners of solidified goo at the base of the eggs. And when we finally fully see the queen in the final episode, yep, she's a total horror show. And driven a bit mad by her experiences. I thought it was a bit odd that they just had Alice Krige do the voice and had a lookalike do the body work, but Terry Matalas said he didn't want to put Krige in the harness and all the prosthetics because she's 68 years old.
Some standout moments from the last two episodes.... The reveal of the restored Enterprise D. You know, I always thought it was odd that they would leave that crashed saucer on Veridian III, not so much for fear of cultural contamination but for risk of its technology being harvested by the Romulans or some other adversary. So I thought it was brilliant that this was addressed. And once you retrieve the saucer and take it to the fleet museum, why wouldn't you mate it with the star drive section of another Galaxy class that's being decommissioned? Speaking of the fleet museum...how do we buy tickets? So, that was a beautiful moment when the D was revealed. And I surprised myself a bit. I always thought the D was a bit of an ugly duckling: too broad, deflector dish always looked a little obscene to me, etc. But when it was revealed, I thought, OMG it's beautiful. And boy did it kick ass in the final episode. This beloved old starship finally got a sweet, beautiful end to its story, which was a huge surprise that I never expected and that I cannot imagine how it was not spoiled for me in advance of the episode.
I thought it was clever that the Borg cube was hiding in the Great Red Spot of Jupiter, after having seen the red theme in Jack's visions, and him finding the cube in red mist when he finally goes to it. Little did we know it was in our own backyard.
Things that choked me up in the final episode: Riker's farewell to Troi when he says he'd be waiting with their son, and also his and Troi's kiss when he came back alive, and Data's comment about bursting into tears when he saw an ensign feeding his cat. Somebody get Data a kitten NOW! Seems like there was something else that got me too but it's not coming to me at the moment.
I may have more thoughts later, but I just finished mowing and I need to start supper and take a quick shower.
The first two seasons, at Stewart's behest, mostly avoided giving the fans what they wanted, which was a TNG reunion. I'm guessing that due to fan reaction to the first two seasons, especially the second season, and knowing that this was likely the last opportunity to get the gang back together, they relented. And what a reunion it was!
I think the show managed to instill a sense of dread throughout. It started with Beverly's ominous "trust no one" message (shades of the X Files!), increased with the mystery of a new villain and a portal weapon that was not the worst thing she had, and went on from there. By the time we get to the last few episodes and we learn what's really going on, it was OMG how are they ever going to stop this? (Even though we knew they would.)
The show scratched a lot of itches. What happened to everyone? Did Picard and Beverly get together? Did Geordie find love? What's Worf been up to? What happened to the Borg after future-Janeway infected them with the neurolytic pathogen? Of course, some of these storylines beget new questions that did not get answered. How do two responsible people in the late 24th century, one of whom is a doctor, no less, not know about birth control? (I thought that was a bit too blatant an echo of Kirk and David.) Who was Geordie's wife? Where is she now? What did Worf do to the Enterprise E? (Yeah, that's a beta-canon story idea that they more or less canonized this season, that Worf was the captain of the Enterprise after Picard left to oversee the Romulan rescue effort. They did not exactly make it explicit here, but they strongly hinted.) Will Picard go back to Laris? Why did Beverly shun everyone after she left the ship?
Itch-scratching is great, but it's not a cureall. There were a few problems with the season. Let me say right off that these are minor quibbles that didn't much dampen my enjoyment of it. First, I couldn't seem to bring myself to care much about Jack Crusher, even after his parentage was revealed. And by the way, why does he have a British accent when he was raised by his American mother? (Yes, I know that Ed Speleers is British.) Did she send him to school in London? Did the Borg-altered DNA he inherited also encode for accent? Also, there was an occasional bit of lazy writing, or at least one bit. Anybody who thinks it's a bad idea to simultaneously plug Lore into the main computer AND invite changelings on board, raise your hand. It irks me when writers can only drive the plot forward by having people do really bone-headed things. At least the mess that caused our heroes was fairly quickly resolved.
Getting back to more positive things, the season did what I thought season 1 would do, resurrect Data. And really all it took was one line of dialog to make Spiner's opposition to playing the part again go away, "a body with the wisdom of age," or some such. Honestly, if I was planning on transferring my consciousness into a synthetic body, I'd make the body appear to be late 20s/early 30s. I'd also add a few inches to my height, make my eyes a brighter blue...but I digress. Similarly, I would not plan to have the consciousnesses of a few androids shoehorned in along with me, particularly one that was a psychopath. Sidebar: other than the mention that B4 and Lal went in also, there was no suggestion of them being in there. Anyway, I liked how they resolved the Lore takeover, by having Data's memories weaken him, with Spot being the coup de grace.
And as far as who the main villain was, and how the plot unfolded, I have to say, wow. Some might quibble that the Borg are overused, especially since all three seasons dealt with them in some way, but since this addressed their current state of affairs, all is forgiven on that score. And to see that despite all the past deaths of Borg Queens being undone by the creation of a new one with nary a beat missed, it was great to see that Janeway's stratagem did all but destroy them. And to seize on a line of dialog from 30+ years ago, about DNA being rewritten by Borg implants, and have it be the primary driver for the Borg's new scheme, to have changeling infiltrators corrupt the transporters with this DNA, and to have it affect only people young enough for their brains to still be developing, well done indeed. I thought that was quite clever. And speaking of Borg Queens.... I thought the queen of season 2 was a bit of a horror show, permanently without legs, and suspended and supported by cables like a humanoid spider in its web. But season 3's queen was full-on Alien Resurrection horror. The first time she appeared, albeit briefly and from behind, when I saw all the cables trailing over the floor, I thought, Alien egg chamber and the runners of solidified goo at the base of the eggs. And when we finally fully see the queen in the final episode, yep, she's a total horror show. And driven a bit mad by her experiences. I thought it was a bit odd that they just had Alice Krige do the voice and had a lookalike do the body work, but Terry Matalas said he didn't want to put Krige in the harness and all the prosthetics because she's 68 years old.
Some standout moments from the last two episodes.... The reveal of the restored Enterprise D. You know, I always thought it was odd that they would leave that crashed saucer on Veridian III, not so much for fear of cultural contamination but for risk of its technology being harvested by the Romulans or some other adversary. So I thought it was brilliant that this was addressed. And once you retrieve the saucer and take it to the fleet museum, why wouldn't you mate it with the star drive section of another Galaxy class that's being decommissioned? Speaking of the fleet museum...how do we buy tickets? So, that was a beautiful moment when the D was revealed. And I surprised myself a bit. I always thought the D was a bit of an ugly duckling: too broad, deflector dish always looked a little obscene to me, etc. But when it was revealed, I thought, OMG it's beautiful. And boy did it kick ass in the final episode. This beloved old starship finally got a sweet, beautiful end to its story, which was a huge surprise that I never expected and that I cannot imagine how it was not spoiled for me in advance of the episode.
I thought it was clever that the Borg cube was hiding in the Great Red Spot of Jupiter, after having seen the red theme in Jack's visions, and him finding the cube in red mist when he finally goes to it. Little did we know it was in our own backyard.
Things that choked me up in the final episode: Riker's farewell to Troi when he says he'd be waiting with their son, and also his and Troi's kiss when he came back alive, and Data's comment about bursting into tears when he saw an ensign feeding his cat. Somebody get Data a kitten NOW! Seems like there was something else that got me too but it's not coming to me at the moment.
I may have more thoughts later, but I just finished mowing and I need to start supper and take a quick shower.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
133One minor thing that I was wondering...how were they setting off fireworks in space??
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Re: Picard returns!
134Ha ha, I thought about that too. Obviously they have the oxygen encapsulated in the thing somehow. Either that, or it's something wild like antimatter. I remember some reference in Star Trek one time to antimatter fireworks. Sounds a little more dangerous than the normal kind, if you ask me…
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
135Well, you guys have covered things so well that I'm not sure what else to say... but I do have some additional thoughts.
As far as Seasons 1 and 2 go, the least said, the better, for me at least. I do get that a lot of it had to do with Stewart's desire for what the series should be like, but I think he was badly let down by the writers. Turning S1 into a whole farewell to Data wasn't the right route to go for me, not after waiting so long for an event series like this to finally happen. Then yes, there were the Borg getting shoe-horned in at every opportunity, and it didn't stop with S1. S2 was an even bigger mess, made all the worse because it began so promisingly, and then devolved into just some weird trip inside Picard's head and the exploration of a dark family history that felt unnecessary and too late at this point in the character's history and development. None of the new characters worked for me, least of all Raffi, and then of course, she's the one that irritatingly survives the cut into S3. Oh well.
Moving on, I think judging from reactions allover, it's safe to say S3 is what fans were so desperately waiting for. I do wonder if Stewart felt slighted or upset in any way when the showrunners probably went to him said: "Listen, Patrick... I know this is exactly what we didn't want, but things haven't quite worked out the way we thought so far, and this is the last chance to turn this ship around so... we're gonna do exactly what you didn't want to, but... too bad." Or perhaps it was his idea all along, or he was onboard with the changes? Maybe it will all come out in some interview on Blu-ray commentary at some point, but given that S2 and S3 were shot consecutively, maybe fan reaction to S2 didn't really play into the decision and concept for S3?
All of the highs and lows have been well covered by both of you, so I'll stick to my personal takes on a couple of things.
First off, Jack Crusher. I enjoyed the character, the actor's performance, and the way into which he was written into Star Trek lore. It also did very much remind me of the whole Kirk/Carol/David thing, and as a writer, that always sets off alarm bells for me because it feels they're just recycling material within the same universe. Actually though, what really bothered me about the sudden appearance of Jack was the not too subtle message that a man's life and legacy are somehow deemed incomplete if he leaves this world without offspring. This was an aspect of Picard's personal life journey that had always been a defining trait of his character in many ways, and I felt a high level of irritation that someone felt that his story and life wouldn't be whole without the comfort and accomplishment that he was leaving a son behind. It felt contrived, undid a lot of who and what Picard was, and felt like a betrayal in a way. I'll confess here that this bit hit home a little harder for me than I guess it would to most, and I'm sure I can attribute most of my emotional problem with this story development to my own personal experience. Yet, even without that, it still feels like a bit of a thumbing of the nose to all childless men out there that had hoped to have a child at some point in their lives and were never able to realize that dream. For me, there was a feeling of kinship and commiseration with the character of Picard in feeling that loss and emptiness and wonder of what might have been, but to now simply now be told that nah, Picard's story couldn't possibly end without giving him this last thing he's been missing all along. Lame. It served the story and plot well, but it destroyed a special part of that character for me.
Aside from that (and I did get over it... mostly), the season was thoroughly enjoyable and a huge blast down memory lane, from all the returning stars, to the cameos, the genius idea of the Fleet Museum, the Changelings, the Borg being defeated once and for all (although I find it odd that they simply ignored mention of the new Collective that was formed under the Jurati Queen last season). There were more than a few passing nods to other franchises, notably Alien (as mentioned already with the Borg Queen), and who didn't think of the Falcon flying trough the innards of the second Death Star in RoTJ when the Enterprise D fights its way through the Cube? Overall, too many great moments to count, mostly with the old cast, seeing the D fly once more, and the sheer volume of easter eggs. Oh... and hearing Walter Koenig's voice as Federation President Chekov nearly moved me to tears (nice nod to Yelchin there too, RIP).
Nitpicks: Did Tuvok seem way too old to you? He's a Vulcan, and I don't recall how old he was during Voyager, but Seven, as a human, was depicted exactly how Jeri Ryan currently looks for the same amount of time having passed in the Trek timeline as has in real life. Yet Tuvok looked positively decrepit to me, or is it just me? Has Tim Russ really aged that much and they couldn't be bothered to de-age him a tad to account for his longer lifespan as a human? Another disappointment for me, and I kept hoping for it until the last half hour of the final episode was that, despite several references to Admiral Janeway by name. she failed to appear. Would that have been too much to cram in? At this point, I think not, and given that Mulgrew lends her voice to the character in ST: Prodigy and has also indicated she's very open to reprising the role in live action, I find it a missed opportunity that she wasn't seen.
Speaking of missed opportunities... have you guys seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KXU2Ob8gYY
With all the hype of seeing Kirk's body on that display in the Daystrom facility, and the return of the 1701-D, this has suddenly appeared online, straight out of the Roddenberry Archive. Make of it what you will, but nearly everyone is saying that it should have either been included as a post-credits scene for Generations, or the opening scene of Shatner's novel The Return, from which this is lifted, nearly moment for moment. You can head over to Trek Culture's channel after for Sean's thoughts on this.
As far as Seasons 1 and 2 go, the least said, the better, for me at least. I do get that a lot of it had to do with Stewart's desire for what the series should be like, but I think he was badly let down by the writers. Turning S1 into a whole farewell to Data wasn't the right route to go for me, not after waiting so long for an event series like this to finally happen. Then yes, there were the Borg getting shoe-horned in at every opportunity, and it didn't stop with S1. S2 was an even bigger mess, made all the worse because it began so promisingly, and then devolved into just some weird trip inside Picard's head and the exploration of a dark family history that felt unnecessary and too late at this point in the character's history and development. None of the new characters worked for me, least of all Raffi, and then of course, she's the one that irritatingly survives the cut into S3. Oh well.
Moving on, I think judging from reactions allover, it's safe to say S3 is what fans were so desperately waiting for. I do wonder if Stewart felt slighted or upset in any way when the showrunners probably went to him said: "Listen, Patrick... I know this is exactly what we didn't want, but things haven't quite worked out the way we thought so far, and this is the last chance to turn this ship around so... we're gonna do exactly what you didn't want to, but... too bad." Or perhaps it was his idea all along, or he was onboard with the changes? Maybe it will all come out in some interview on Blu-ray commentary at some point, but given that S2 and S3 were shot consecutively, maybe fan reaction to S2 didn't really play into the decision and concept for S3?
All of the highs and lows have been well covered by both of you, so I'll stick to my personal takes on a couple of things.
First off, Jack Crusher. I enjoyed the character, the actor's performance, and the way into which he was written into Star Trek lore. It also did very much remind me of the whole Kirk/Carol/David thing, and as a writer, that always sets off alarm bells for me because it feels they're just recycling material within the same universe. Actually though, what really bothered me about the sudden appearance of Jack was the not too subtle message that a man's life and legacy are somehow deemed incomplete if he leaves this world without offspring. This was an aspect of Picard's personal life journey that had always been a defining trait of his character in many ways, and I felt a high level of irritation that someone felt that his story and life wouldn't be whole without the comfort and accomplishment that he was leaving a son behind. It felt contrived, undid a lot of who and what Picard was, and felt like a betrayal in a way. I'll confess here that this bit hit home a little harder for me than I guess it would to most, and I'm sure I can attribute most of my emotional problem with this story development to my own personal experience. Yet, even without that, it still feels like a bit of a thumbing of the nose to all childless men out there that had hoped to have a child at some point in their lives and were never able to realize that dream. For me, there was a feeling of kinship and commiseration with the character of Picard in feeling that loss and emptiness and wonder of what might have been, but to now simply now be told that nah, Picard's story couldn't possibly end without giving him this last thing he's been missing all along. Lame. It served the story and plot well, but it destroyed a special part of that character for me.
Aside from that (and I did get over it... mostly), the season was thoroughly enjoyable and a huge blast down memory lane, from all the returning stars, to the cameos, the genius idea of the Fleet Museum, the Changelings, the Borg being defeated once and for all (although I find it odd that they simply ignored mention of the new Collective that was formed under the Jurati Queen last season). There were more than a few passing nods to other franchises, notably Alien (as mentioned already with the Borg Queen), and who didn't think of the Falcon flying trough the innards of the second Death Star in RoTJ when the Enterprise D fights its way through the Cube? Overall, too many great moments to count, mostly with the old cast, seeing the D fly once more, and the sheer volume of easter eggs. Oh... and hearing Walter Koenig's voice as Federation President Chekov nearly moved me to tears (nice nod to Yelchin there too, RIP).
Nitpicks: Did Tuvok seem way too old to you? He's a Vulcan, and I don't recall how old he was during Voyager, but Seven, as a human, was depicted exactly how Jeri Ryan currently looks for the same amount of time having passed in the Trek timeline as has in real life. Yet Tuvok looked positively decrepit to me, or is it just me? Has Tim Russ really aged that much and they couldn't be bothered to de-age him a tad to account for his longer lifespan as a human? Another disappointment for me, and I kept hoping for it until the last half hour of the final episode was that, despite several references to Admiral Janeway by name. she failed to appear. Would that have been too much to cram in? At this point, I think not, and given that Mulgrew lends her voice to the character in ST: Prodigy and has also indicated she's very open to reprising the role in live action, I find it a missed opportunity that she wasn't seen.
Speaking of missed opportunities... have you guys seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KXU2Ob8gYY
With all the hype of seeing Kirk's body on that display in the Daystrom facility, and the return of the 1701-D, this has suddenly appeared online, straight out of the Roddenberry Archive. Make of it what you will, but nearly everyone is saying that it should have either been included as a post-credits scene for Generations, or the opening scene of Shatner's novel The Return, from which this is lifted, nearly moment for moment. You can head over to Trek Culture's channel after for Sean's thoughts on this.
This Space for Rent
Re: Picard returns!
136Rereading my post found a badly out of place thought that I have now relocated to its rightful spot, in case anyone wants to search.
As a childless man myself, I definitely noted that whatever they may have established previously about Picard's life choices, they gave him a child in the end. I didn't take it as badly, or apparently in the same way as you did. To me it was mostly, let's copy ST II and the whole lack of birth control thing. But I didn't feel it betrayed Picard's character, and I'm hoping that pointing out why will make you feel better about it. In The Inner Light, Picard states that after never having wanted children, he could not imagine life without them. And in Generations, he expresses some regrets about not having had a family and taking solace that Rene would carry on the line, until his death foreclosed that option. So, the seeds were planted for Picard's fatherhood long ago.
Yes, I saw the regenerations thing and Sean's review of it. I was a bit puzzled by the sequence of memories following Spock's picking up of the badge. Why was he flashing back to those memories? I suppose seeing the destruction of his Enterprise was a nod to the fact that when Spock was dead, Kirk risked everything to save him, but the scenes with him in the TMP era uniform threw me. It made it look like he was remembering the destruction of his Enterprise before it every happened. Or were the scenes in the TMP uniform supposed to be after the visit to Veridian? If so, Spock looks too young in them.
I think they didn't mention the Jurati Collective because they felt it wasn't relevant since those Borg are benign and they couldn't figure out how to fit it in. There was some much more relevant piece of information this season that they left out because they could not figure out how to add it in. I just can't remember right now what it was.
Tim Russ was on The Ready Room with Wil Wheaton and looks pretty darned old now, tho I must say, I think Tuvok looked older. Memory Alpha says Tuvok was born in 2264 and as Season 3 of Picard is set in 2402, I think, that makes him 138. He does look a bit old for that age; then again, when Sarek appeared in Journey to Babel, he looked a bit old and was supposed to be 102.
They wanted to have Janeway appear, but at some point Paramount told them they were not Avengers: Endgame and had to scale back their aspirations. I'd say there's a good chance Janeway will get her own series or at least a movie.
Yep, total ROTJ vibes when the Enterprise flew through the cube.
As a childless man myself, I definitely noted that whatever they may have established previously about Picard's life choices, they gave him a child in the end. I didn't take it as badly, or apparently in the same way as you did. To me it was mostly, let's copy ST II and the whole lack of birth control thing. But I didn't feel it betrayed Picard's character, and I'm hoping that pointing out why will make you feel better about it. In The Inner Light, Picard states that after never having wanted children, he could not imagine life without them. And in Generations, he expresses some regrets about not having had a family and taking solace that Rene would carry on the line, until his death foreclosed that option. So, the seeds were planted for Picard's fatherhood long ago.
Yes, I saw the regenerations thing and Sean's review of it. I was a bit puzzled by the sequence of memories following Spock's picking up of the badge. Why was he flashing back to those memories? I suppose seeing the destruction of his Enterprise was a nod to the fact that when Spock was dead, Kirk risked everything to save him, but the scenes with him in the TMP era uniform threw me. It made it look like he was remembering the destruction of his Enterprise before it every happened. Or were the scenes in the TMP uniform supposed to be after the visit to Veridian? If so, Spock looks too young in them.
I think they didn't mention the Jurati Collective because they felt it wasn't relevant since those Borg are benign and they couldn't figure out how to fit it in. There was some much more relevant piece of information this season that they left out because they could not figure out how to add it in. I just can't remember right now what it was.
Tim Russ was on The Ready Room with Wil Wheaton and looks pretty darned old now, tho I must say, I think Tuvok looked older. Memory Alpha says Tuvok was born in 2264 and as Season 3 of Picard is set in 2402, I think, that makes him 138. He does look a bit old for that age; then again, when Sarek appeared in Journey to Babel, he looked a bit old and was supposed to be 102.
They wanted to have Janeway appear, but at some point Paramount told them they were not Avengers: Endgame and had to scale back their aspirations. I'd say there's a good chance Janeway will get her own series or at least a movie.
Yep, total ROTJ vibes when the Enterprise flew through the cube.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
137The thing I couldn't remember yesterday, an important detail left out of this season because they couldn't figure out how to fit it in, was the whereabouts of Kestra Riker. She supposed to be on Earth at Starfleet Academy, but they said every time they tried to work it in somehow, it seemed out of place. Seems a bit strange to me, but whatever.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
138Yeah, that was a very weird omission, especially given the theme of children of main characters like Picard, Crusher, and LaForge, and to then completely and seemingly forget about Riker's and Troi's surviving offspring. It's a given that Kestra would have been assimilated as well given her age, but all they needed was a single line of dialogue between Riker and Troi (or anyone else) when the Titan arrives at Earth and the assimilation of the crew takes place, to say "Our daughter is down there, and she's one them now. We can't lose her as well". That's it. no more needed. Two seconds of screen time, you acknowledge the character's existence and her importance to Riker and Troi, show that the parents didn't forget they are parents, and then you move on. I swear the excuses given sometimes are just complete BS... more like "Uh, yeah, we completely forgot about her. Ooops."Olorin wrote: Sun Apr 30, 2023 5:59 am The thing I couldn't remember yesterday, an important detail left out of this season because they couldn't figure out how to fit it in, was the whereabouts of Kestra Riker. She supposed to be on Earth at Starfleet Academy, but they said every time they tried to work it in somehow, it seemed out of place. Seems a bit strange to me, but whatever.
Re: The second half of the Regenerations video - yes, I found that bit very baffling as well and there is surprising lack of discussion about it as everyone just seems to focus on the first half, which is 100% self-explanatory. My interpretation (of sorts) is that Spock touching Kirk's uniform insignia and reflecting on his old friend triggers a past memory of some kind. He returns to a time that I presume is slightly post-TMP (he had left Starfleet prior to V'ger's arrival but he's wearing his uniform in the vision and looks like his younger self from that time), and has a vision of the Enterprise's destruction over the Genesis planet. Since that would be several years into the future of that particular moment, the vision would have to be a premonition, but was it brought about because being near Kirk's grave tapped into an echo of his friend's painful memory of that moment, or are they implying that Spock himself saw the Enterprise being destroyed long before it happened? And did the understand in that moment the reason for that vision - that he himself had died and the destruction of the ship was due to his eventual rebirth?
When that event occurred, the reborn Spock had not yet been reunited with his Katra, so I don't think there's a connection to version of himself. All in all, the whole thing is very confusing, and I'm really curious as to what the makers of the video intended or were hinting at by showing us that sequence. All I'll say is that the though the first half of the video (at least the Spock bit) isn't canon, it should officially be made so. I refuse to accept that Spock would not have done just that, and visit the grave of the man with whom he shared the most enduring bond of friendship and loyalty throughout his long life. I think it was a hugely dropped ball by Paramount/CBS to never address this glaring gap in ST history, especially while Nimoy was still alive. So much regret over what could've been...
This Space for Rent
Re: Picard returns!
139Yes, I always think he would've traveled to Kirk's grave.
I'm glad to hear you're as baffled as I was about the later part of the video. It's good to know my brain isn't ossifying...or if it is, it's not doing it alone. But getting back to the earlier part, the fact that the video is entitled Regeneration, and that Kirk's body eventually ends up in Daystrom Station, are we to infer that Spock was part of retrieving Kirk's body, and the purpose was for some eventual resurrection?
I'm glad to hear you're as baffled as I was about the later part of the video. It's good to know my brain isn't ossifying...or if it is, it's not doing it alone. But getting back to the earlier part, the fact that the video is entitled Regeneration, and that Kirk's body eventually ends up in Daystrom Station, are we to infer that Spock was part of retrieving Kirk's body, and the purpose was for some eventual resurrection?
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
140I think there are at least four clues/nods to Kirk coming back in some fashion that are present in that video:
1 - The title of the video. Besides being an obvious play on 'Generations', it's an even more obvious reference to Kirk being brought back in some fashion. The plural, I assume, is meant to include the eventual 'regeneration' of the Enterprise D as well.
2 - This is part of the opening scene of Shatner's novel 'The Return', where Kirk does just that. The bit missing is the Borg transporter beam that causes the stones to collapse as Kirk's body is beamed out from under them.
3 - The vision of the original Enterprise being destroyed is a powerful connection to Spock's own regeneration through the Genesis Device in ST3.
4 - There was something at the Daystrom Station called 'Project Phoenix' - i don't think I need to explain that mythical reference. There was also something called Genesis 2.
All in all, I'd say someone out there very much wants to see Captain Kirk return in some fashion, and I don't mean the new guy on Strange New Worlds, or another JJ-verse entry with Chris Pine...
1 - The title of the video. Besides being an obvious play on 'Generations', it's an even more obvious reference to Kirk being brought back in some fashion. The plural, I assume, is meant to include the eventual 'regeneration' of the Enterprise D as well.
2 - This is part of the opening scene of Shatner's novel 'The Return', where Kirk does just that. The bit missing is the Borg transporter beam that causes the stones to collapse as Kirk's body is beamed out from under them.
3 - The vision of the original Enterprise being destroyed is a powerful connection to Spock's own regeneration through the Genesis Device in ST3.
4 - There was something at the Daystrom Station called 'Project Phoenix' - i don't think I need to explain that mythical reference. There was also something called Genesis 2.
All in all, I'd say someone out there very much wants to see Captain Kirk return in some fashion, and I don't mean the new guy on Strange New Worlds, or another JJ-verse entry with Chris Pine...
This Space for Rent
Re: Picard returns!
141In addition to releasing season 3 on home media, in addition to releasing all three seasons in a box for home media, they are also releasing every bit of JLP in a box: 7 seasons of TNG, 4 movies, and 3 seasons of Picard:
https://trekmovie.com/2023/06/16/star-t ... n-october/
https://trekmovie.com/2023/06/16/star-t ... n-october/
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
142So which set are you buying?Olorin wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 11:20 am In addition to releasing season 3 on home media, in addition to releasing all three seasons in a box for home media, they are also releasing every bit of JLP in a box: 7 seasons of TNG, 4 movies, and 3 seasons of Picard:
https://trekmovie.com/2023/06/16/star-t ... n-october/
Having already bought the TNG remastered set, and more recently the 4K movie set, all of these are a pass except perhaps the three seasons of Picard itself.
This Space for Rent
Re: Picard returns!
143I'll pick up just the Blu-ray of the third season. Bill Hunt of the Digital Bits recently had a diatribe about how it should be being released on 4K. He had been hoping that they would do a 4K set of all three seasons of Picard. If at some point they would do that, I would go back and pick up the three seasons on 4K. But I'm not holding my breath on that, because for one thing, apparently the three seasons were only finished at 2K. Hunt talks about that and points out that the second avatar movie was only finished at 2K and was upscaled for 4K release and looked fantastic that way.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
144It occurs to me that the immense Picard collection apparently lacks one appearance of Picard: his bookending appearances in the very first episode of Deep Space Nine.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
145I'm confused. Do you already have Seasons 1 and 2, or are you only interested enough in Season 3 to pick it up as is, and would get all three if they do a 4K set?Olorin wrote: Sat Jun 17, 2023 1:56 am I'll pick up just the Blu-ray of the third season. Bill Hunt of the Digital Bits recently had a diatribe about how it should be being released on 4K. He had been hoping that they would do a 4K set of all three seasons of Picard. If at some point they would do that, I would go back and pick up the three seasons on 4K. But I'm not holding my breath on that, because for one thing, apparently the three seasons were only finished at 2K. Hunt talks about that and points out that the second avatar movie was only finished at 2K and was upscaled for 4K release and looked fantastic that way.
This Space for Rent
Re: Picard returns!
146I realized after posting that I was ambiguous, but by then I was out enjoying our city's annual garden walk on an idyllic summer day.
I have seasons 1 and 2, and would rebuy if they release a complete 4K box.
I have seasons 1 and 2, and would rebuy if they release a complete 4K box.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
147All is clear now, thank you.
Sounds like you had a perfect day.![Coolsmiley :coolsmile](./images/smilies/imported_coolsmiley.gif)
Sounds like you had a perfect day.
![Coolsmiley :coolsmile](./images/smilies/imported_coolsmiley.gif)
This Space for Rent
Re: Picard returns!
148What is an idyllic summer day? In SE Texas we were at about a 115F heat index on SaturdayOlorin wrote: Sat Jun 17, 2023 11:35 am I realized after posting that I was ambiguous, but by then I was out enjoying our city's annual garden walk on an idyllic summer day.
I have seasons 1 and 2, and would rebuy if they release a complete 4K box.
![jaw drop :jaw:](./images/smilies/animated-smileys-shocked-022.gif)
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Re: Picard returns!
149I think our high Saturday was about 81 °F, but with essentially no humidity. Other than that we are in a drought, it's been hard to complain too much about our weather this summer.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
Re: Picard returns!
150I don't know if anyone has been following this, but the BluRay release of the final season contains, in the final episode, an alternate version of a very quick shot of the Enterprise, compared to what was seen on Paramount +. Story is that they did a more interesting version (added a nebula in the background) for the theatrical showing of that episode, and then ported that over to Paramount + for streaming. What is included on the BluRay is the original version. It's a finished effect but it just doesn't look quite as interesting. Today Paramount announced they will include the enhanced version on new disc manufacturing going forward, but they have not stated whether they will do a swap out for Day 1 purchasers like me. I'm pretty dubious that they will; the scene is literally only a few seconds, and honestly, I don't know that the replacement would be worth the headache even for the consumer. But dammit, if they're going to do it, I want it.
You can see a comparison of the two shots at https://trekmovie.com/2023/09/22/star-t ... l-fx-shot/.
You can see a comparison of the two shots at https://trekmovie.com/2023/09/22/star-t ... l-fx-shot/.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."