Pure Star Trek Discussion

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Well the Pure-Middle Earth Discussion is doing great, and the Cancellation of Enterprise thread has gotten a response, so i thought i would star a Pure Star Trek Discussion. We can talk about anything Star Trek... Talk about The Original Series, The Next Generation, Deep Space Nine, Voyager, Enterprise. Talk about favorite episodes, favorite series, favorite movies, favorite actors/characters. Talk about the e xp anded universe of the books. Discuss what ifs or anything.

Pretty much, if it has to do with star trek, then lets talk about it and discuss it.

Have Fun!
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

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Well, I'll go ahead and start with my favorite characters.

Well my all-time favorite character is Riker (he should be captain of the enterprise in a movie... but thats another discussion).
My other favorites are O'Brien and Data and Garek . Oh and Quark... gotta love Quark, dont get me wrong, i like everyone, but those are my faves.

My favorite bad guys would have to be Gul Ducat.
Commander Tomalak was pretty cool too.
and we all love to hate Weyoun... all 8 of them.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

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I think Star Trek's all-time best villain was Gul Dukat. Granted, he has an advantage over villains like Khan, who only appeared twice, and the Borg Queen, who appeared a small handful of times, because he was a recurring character and they had a lot of time to develop him. But he was just so multi-faceted. He could actually be a good guy, and was for about a whole season during the Klingon war arc. Then he sold out to the Dominion. Of course, he thought he was doing the best thing for Cardassia, by allying them with an invincible ally. But whether he was being good or bad, he had charisma in spades. It's no wonder that all those half-Cardassian kids kept turning up!

One thing that really set DS9 apart and above was the absolutely phenomenal cast of recurring characters. Garak was a particular favorite. And oh-my-God, Kai Winn. I loved to hate her!

But here's a more volatile topic. I think I'll see if I can post it as a poll....
Last edited by Olorin on Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: typo
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

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Funny how you bring up Soren... you know how he first succeeded and then Picard ended up in the Nexus with Kirk, then Picard convinced him to come back to stop Soren. Guinan says they can leave the nexus and go to anytime they want...so why did they go back to when Soren was going to send up the missile to destroy the sun... why not go back in time and stop him when he is sitting on the toilet, or stop him back when the Enterprise-B first beamed him aboard with the other El-Aurians???... i know it wouldnt have made much of a movie, but it would have been funnier... to see capts kirk and picard bust in on Soren taking a crap.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

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You hit upon the principal logic flaw in that movie. The best time to go back would have been when Soran was on the Enterprise D. Picard could have waylaid him then. The way I rationalize it, you can go anywhere, any time--as long as it's within reasonable proximity to the Nexus. The Nexus was not near the Enterprise at that time.

I know, there's nothing in the movie to base my theory on, but it's kind of like what JM Dillard said at a convention once. She has written quite a few ST novels, including the novelizations of some of the movies. She said she felt like she needed to correct some of those glaring faults when she did the novelizations. I can't remember whether she did the novelization for Generations or not, and if so, what spin she put on it.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

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Olorin1... funny you bring up "In the Pale Moonlight" (in the best star trek captain thread)... it came on Tv today.. I love this episode... especially when sisko comes to realize that you, as the cliche goes, cant make an omelette with out breaking some eggs.


"I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damaging thing of all... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again, I would. Garak was right about one thing - a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant." - Sisko, confessing to his personal log.

---- what a line
oh and when the Romulan Senator says "Its a FAKE!" (i love how he says it)... if sisko looked any more constipated, he'd pop a blood vessel in his face.
Last edited by BladeCollector on Fri Feb 04, 2005 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

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I love that DS9 episode. :)

Ok... to e xp and on why I criticize Enterprise for its lack of continuity with the Trek universe, moreso than the other shows, here is my list:

- as Olorin already mentioned, this starship Enterprise bears absolutely no resemblance to the former Enterprise depicted in panels on Kirk's NCC-1701 Enterprise. To my recollection, the sequence is: a sailing vessel, an aircraft carrier, a prototype space shuttle, a double donut-shaped ship (the S.S. Enterprise,) and Kirk's original Enterprise. Of course they had to have a cool looking ship for the show, and I don't fault them for that, but was it really necessary to call it Enterprise? You'd think that no other ship in Starfleet ever accomplishes anything unless it has that particular name.

- T'Pol is given a Starfleet rank. This is a blatant error. Spock was the first Vulcan to ever serve in Starfleet. I suppose the only way around this one is that T'Pol's field commission is more or less honourary since she did not go through Starfleet Academy, whereas Spock did.

- I'm glad they are e xp laining the Klingon forehead ridge problem, but what about the Romulans? In the Old series, they looked just like Vulcans, which I thought was cool since they are essentially the same people, separated only by philosophical beliefs. However, when TNG came out, the prosthetics dept. couldn't resist enhancing the look of the Romulans and gave them these stupid overhanging brows with a V on them. The Romulans seen on Enterprise also sport this updated look, making Kirk's romulans look like an anomaly.

- The crew of Enterprise has encountered and dealt with the Ferengi. Yet in TNG, Picard also makes first contact with this species. So did Archer simply forget to make a report? I noticed the word 'Ferengi' is cleverly not mentioned, but that's a cheesy and silly way to slip this one through.

- Same goes for the Borg. Ostensibly, Starfleet's first contact with the Borg is when Q hurls them into the Delta Quadrant. But again, here we have Enterprise dealing with the Borg?!? And again, the word 'Borg' is not mentioned, as if somehow no one will ever compare notes on these beings for 200 years?

That's just the major ones I can think of off the top of my head. I know there are more, otherwise I really wouldn't make much of an issue out of it. The minute you decide to do a prequel to something that is so well established, you know you're going to run into problems, but some of them just seem needless and silly, like someone just didn't care enough to pay attention.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

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Valkrist wrote: - T'Pol is given a Starfleet rank. This is a blatant error. Spock was the first Vulcan to ever serve in Starfleet. I suppose the only way around this one is that T'Pol's field commission is more or less honourary since she did not go through Starfleet Academy, whereas Spock did.

Spock's status as first Vulcan to serve in Starfleet...was that established in an episode or movie, or is it from one of the books? I don't remember which. If it's the latter, it's considered non-canonical, and therefore they don't have to honor it in the shows.

- I'm glad they are e xp laining the Klingon forehead ridge problem, but what about the Romulans? In the Old series, they looked just like Vulcans, which I thought was cool since they are essentially the same people, separated only by philosophical beliefs. However, when TNG came out, the prosthetics dept. couldn't resist enhancing the look of the Romulans and gave them these stupid overhanging brows with a V on them. The Romulans seen on Enterprise also sport this updated look, making Kirk's romulans look like an anomaly.

That's true, but that's not a continuity error on Enterprise's part, or not totally so. They introduced that problem with TNG, so it's nothing new. They had opportunity to e xp lain it in ST VI, since that one featured a Romulan (and ST V also, but it couldn't e xp lain anything, much less what a Romulan's forehead should look like), but they stayed with the old-style forehead. What Enterprise has done, as you pointed out, is to compound the problem and make the TOS-era Romulans seem anomalous. IMHO, I much prefer the smooth-headed Romulan look, since they should be considered Vulcans who left Vulcan as a result of the Vulcan civil war. The length of time since they left (c. 5000 years) is not enough time for natural evolution to induce such a change, esp. in a long-lived species like Vulcans.

- The crew of Enterprise has encountered and dealt with the Ferengi. Yet in TNG, Picard also makes first contact with this species. So did Archer simply forget to make a report? I noticed the word 'Ferengi' is cleverly not mentioned, but that's a cheesy and silly way to slip this one through.

I missed that episode (though I was aware of it and had the same reservations you did).

- Same goes for the Borg. Ostensibly, Starfleet's first contact with the Borg is when Q hurls them into the Delta Quadrant. But again, here we have Enterprise dealing with the Borg?!? And again, the word 'Borg' is not mentioned, as if somehow no one will ever compare notes on these beings for 200 years?

This is similar to the Romulan problem. Enterprise has merely compounded a problem that was already established by its predecessors. The Borg were established in TNG, and it was e xp licit that the Federation was previously unaware of them, or at least the crew of Picard's Enterprise was. Then we have the movie Generations, and the Enterprise-B rescues a ship of El-Aurian refugees fleeing the destruction of their homeworld by...the Borg. So did they not tell Starfleet about these cybernetic uber-Nazis? Or did Starfleet simply classify the information so deeply that a hundred years later, nobody or almost nobody knows about it? Finally, along comes Voyager and really messes with the continuity. In giving Seven's backstory, they have her family going in search of the Borg at a time before Picard encountered them. There are three problems there. First, how are they aware of them? (See previous quibble about Generations). Second, how do they get their little runabout into the Delta Quadrant in less time than it takes little Annika to have any visible growth or aging? Did they get into a Borg transwarp conduit (I just saw that episode again, but I don't remember if they e xp lained it. If so, it was e xp lained in passing and not visually depicted.) Third, if the Borg assimilated humans way back then (the Hansens), why do they wait until after "first" contact with Picard's Enterprise to suddenly get interested in assimilating humanity? Voyager also introduced other problems with the Borg. In the episode where Chakotay is stranded with the fractious ex-Borg, the human one says she was assimilated at Wolfe 359, the huge battle where Locutus and the Borg destroyed most of Starfleet. That Borg vessel was destroyed and presumably everyone one it was killed! In First Contact, when Picard confronts the Borg Queen with this contradiction, she chides him for thinking in such a three dimensional fashion (I think that's what she says). So that seems to rule out a cheat e xp lanation where they launch an escape pod with the Queen and a few drones on it. During the battle, did the Borg assimilate a few Starfleet vessels, which then left the conflict and returned to the Delta Quadrant? None of this is ever e xp lained, but merely left to hang like a big non-sequitur. (Although the mechanism of the Queen's survival at Wolfe 359 is hinted at...in Voyager, we see that everytime the Queen is killed, a new one is somehow created.) So in light of all this, the fact that Starfleet in Picard's time should have been aware of the Borg for 200 years on account of Enterprise's encounter seems pretty small. It's like the El-Aurian quandary.

That's just the major ones I can think of off the top of my head. I know there are more, otherwise I really wouldn't make much of an issue out of it. The minute you decide to do a prequel to something that is so well established, you know you're going to run into problems, but some of them just seem needless and silly, like someone just didn't care enough to pay attention.

Those are all valid quibbles, but in most instances, I feel Enterprise was merely missing an opportunity to correct a problem, as opposed to originating the problem. I think I went into this show thinking that it was a mistake to do a prequel precisely because of continuity issues, but that it was going to happen without my say-so anyway, so I might as well watch it and make the best of it. It's like the LOTR movies...we notice every change or mistake, we ***** about it primarily so everyone knows we noticed, and we agree to like it anyway. ;)

The real problem comes not from one particular series or episode, but from the producers' attitude toward the show. They are not making it for the hard-core ST fan, but for the mass market. They know we will catch every mistake they make, but they don't lose any sleep over it for the most part. Rick Berman has said that they don't feel required to honor something that was established in a ten-year-old episode if it gets in the way of a story they want to tell. What they should have is a continuity cop with a little imagination. When they come up with a good story (like the Enterprise episode with the Borg), they should have someone to point it, "This is a problem because... -- and here's how you solve it."

I did really like that Enterprise Borg episode because it restored an element that was missing since after the Enterprise D's first encounter or two. Picard did not fully comprehend what he was dealing with, the horror of assimilation. So although they were concerned about engaging a technological superior foe, they had no idea what was really at stake. In subsequent episodes, they did. If I were in Starfleet, I wouldn't go within a quadrant of the Borg, knowing what we know about them. That makes episodes where Janeway decides to send raiding parties into Borg ships unbelievable right out of the starting gate. But getting back to Enterprise, it re-establishes that "oh my God, they've got no idea what they're dealing with" tension.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

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I'm not 100% sure on this, but here is my theory. The Borg Queen tells Picard that he thinks in 3-Dimensional terms, and she also states that "she" was on the ship that assimilated Locutus and was subsequently destroyed at Wolf 359. That was in TNG... Now back to First Contact when she tells him about thinking in 3-D...This queen is subsequently destroyed, and we see it this time, her organic flesh is "melted" and Picard breaks her cybernetic neck. Now flash-foward to Voyager, which this part came after First Contact.. now we have another Borg Queen.Ok here is my point :) ... the 3-D term comment was I think the Queens attempt at calling Picard ignorant because either A. he was a borg and doesnt realize or B. he cant put 2 and 2 together. Ok well i will put 2 and 2 together and try to get 4.
We were told as viewers that the Borg had a Collective Conscious, ok no big deal. then we were told they had a queen, well we all thought of the Queen as being their leader. I think that there is more of a hierarchial structure within the Borg... Actually the possibility is feasible, we've never seen the Borg Homeworld. I think there is like a leader of the borg-but maybe more machine than anything and is like a huge networking relay station that controls all the thoughts of all the individual borg drones... I believe there is a Queen that acts like a router and is over a single/or a few ships. and she may be replaceable, if one queen dies/is destroyed, another borg is made queen (this would e xp lain why there are so many queens at many different times).
Picard stated that he thought the Queen was destroyed, then she says the 3-d comment.
I think this is how the Borg work, so the Destruction of the Queen in Voyager didnt destroy them, it just took out a hunk of the Borg.

What does everyone think? is this feasible, waaaaaaaaaay out in left feild.... i personally think it works very well and would e xp lain alot more of the Borg.

Another couple things on the borg that you may or may not know.
They were originally going to link the Borg with V'ger from the Motion Picture. They were also going to link the Borg to the beacon in season 1 of TNG that those little aliens that took over your body left.

As for those continuity issues --
-- i used to dismiss the klingon forehead issue, until DS9 and trials and tribble-ations and they brought up the differences. even with Kor and Koloth in season 1 or 2, i dont remember exactly, when they showed up on DS9 with ridges, I just dismissed it for the same reason, (they were the same, but different, due to money and make-up issues)
-- now for the romulans, i really dont know what to say, as of right now, i am just gonna let this go for the money-makeup issues in the TOS (but then again, the Romulan in the ST movies (VI) had no ridges. but i am gonna give them a poetic license for now, until someone says something about the ridges on romulans.
-- T'Pol's ranking could be considered a feild commission and be dismissed right there. In Season 7 of DS9, Sisko gave Colonel Kira a feild commission rank of Commander and she wore a Starfleet Uniform.
-- The Ferengi, i didnt see the episode, so i may be off on this. But maybe starfleet didnt have the same regulations back then.... maybe they were insignificant and they didnt think nothing of them, yea i know, it goes against starfleet, you would think they would catalogue every species they met, but i am sure they could come up with a 2-bit reason
-- the borg episode, i wont comment on because i have never seen the episode and i dont know the context that they met the borg in. i would imagine that if they met the borg in a combat situation, there wouldnt be an NX crew left... the 1701-D had enough problems.

Well there is my post, its long enough, i coulda wrote a book. :)
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

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Very good e xp lanations to refute some of my points, especially the Borg issue, which the various series have made a continuous paradox out of. Let's just agree that some of these inclusions into Enterprise have been problematic at best.

As for Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet, I wish I could quote you the exact source, but I cannot. However, I am fairly certain it comes from either the show or one of the movies because I have seen many hardcore ST fans make a stink about it in other message boards, and they more than anyone else are quick to point out that the books are not canon... so it has to be a valid argument, as far as I am concerned.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

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I do believe you are right about Spock being the first in starfleet, vulcan, that is. i dont know them all off the top of my head but i think each series had a first, spock the first vulcan, worf the first klingon, so forth. that was all well in good until enterprise, but they did a good job saying as to why T'Pol is there. the vulcans finally gave Starfleet the interstellar maps so they could travel in space. T'Pol is like the Vulcan liason. it may be a cheap e xp lanation, but her rank could just be a field commision, because she is a part of the vulcan organization, the name slips my mind at the moment
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

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According to The Star Trek Encyclopedia, Spock was the first Vulcan to enlist in Star Fleet. Since the Encyclopedia is supposed to be based only on canonical sources, that's good enough for me. Beyond that, it was pretty much good enough for me that you said it, Valkrist. :)

ST VI stated that Valeris was the first Vulcan to graduate at the top of her class. I find that VERY hard to believe. I would have thought any number of Vulcans would have accomplished that by that point. Gene Roddenberry (who did not write any of the movie scripts and had essentially no involvement in the movies after the first one) said he felt there were aspects of ST V and VI that should be considered non-canonical. I never heard what those were, but my guesses would be 1) Sarek was married previously, 2) Spock had a half-brother, 3) the Enterprise could reach the center of the galaxy, let alone in like 30 minutes, 4) Praxis e xp lodes and wreaks terminal havoc on Kronos (whose continued habitability in later times is never e xp lained), 5) the Klingon homeworld is called Kronos (the Klingons in TNG Season 1 called it Kling), and 6) Valeris was the first Vulcan to graduate at the top of her class.

Lightbulb goes on over my head.... The shortlived Klingon female at the beginning of ST III was named Valkris. Valkrist, where did you get your screen name?

On the Borg Queen, here's my theory. First off, I don't think there's an all-machine relay center somewhere that's the actual controller of the collective as a whole. Of course, before First Contact, I didn't think there was a Queen, either. The concept of a queen is really rather superfluous and contradictory in light of what had previously been revealed about the Borg in TNG. Of course, the real purpose of the Queen was to personify the Borg as a single individual villain for movie audiences to relate to (can you say, dumbed down?). The nature of the Collective will always be what the writers want it to be in This Week's Episode. Anyway, my take is the the Queen serves as a physical repository of the collective mind. She also mediates any disputes or disharmony that arises, either just the more serious ones that the hive mind can't work out internally (which makes her like the role of the US Vice President as a tie-breaker vote in the US Senate) or perhaps she makes all the decisions. When the Queen is destroyed, which we've seen happen 4 times (Best of Both Worlds, First Contact, Dark Frontier, and Endgame), the collective mind is not destroyed, since the collective is so much more than just the queen. It is temporarily disrupted, however. Once it regathers its wits, a new Queen is produced. They would have her DNA on file and it would be a simple matter to generate a new one.

I haven't seen it, but the new ST attraction at the ST E xp erience is Las Vegas is a Borg adventure and Alice Krige returned to play the Queen. Kate Mulgrew also returned to play a rather puffy-faced Admiral Janeway. The Doctor is in it also. There is a featurette on it on one of the Voyager DVD sets.
Getting back to Roddenberry, Paramount took control of Star Trek away from him after the first movie went over-budget. He had no real say in any of the following ones, except insofar as the producers would say, "What do you think, Gene?" just as a courtesy. However, he was always trying to pitch ideas to them. He always wanted them to do a time travel story where the Enterprise somehow prevents the assassination of JFK. This turns out to be a very bad thing for the timeline, and they have to restore history to its proper flow. As a result, SPOCK IS THE GUNMAN ON THE GRASSY KNOLL.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

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Next time i go to vegas, i will be at the Star Trek E xp erience.

The only way they could get from Federation space to the center of the galaxy would be a wormhole or a transwarp conduit. there are alot of things in ST:V that didnt make much sense :) . but they did have some classic moments, like when Scotty hit his head on a beam after saying " i know this ship like the back of my hand" or when kirk finds out about spocks brother... classic.

haha that would be funny.. Lee Harvey Oswald "It wasnt me, i swear, it was the man with the pointy ears"
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

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Anyone watch this weeks enterprise... i dont know how to bring it up, i didnt want to spoil it for anyone, but it already aired, so it cant really be spoiled.

man this season is sooooooooo good. it really ticks me off they are cancelling it.

well let me know if we can openly discuss the eps as they come out, like i said i dont wanna spoil it for anyone
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

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Lightbulb goes on over my head.... The shortlived Klingon female at the beginning of ST III was named Valkris. Valkrist, where did you get your screen name?

I remember Valkris quite well, but that's not where I got my name. Valkrist was actually the name of one of the Lords of the Court of Ardor, an adventure module from ICE's Middle-earth role-playing system. Just liked the name for some reason. ;)

BTW, here's one thing you missed that they never carried through with after ST VI: klingons having pink blood. I know that the real reason they came up with this was so that the movie would not get a PG-13 rating. Change blood to any colour other than red and suddenly it is ok with the ratings board. However, as far as continuity for the ST universe, this one was rather glaring. I can't remember seeing klingons bleed in the original series, but didn't Kruge bleed red in ST III? Obviously, in TNG and every other show thereafter, the klingons bleed red, not pink. Another strange one dealing with klingons was the one about klingons not being able to cry due to lacking tear ducts when three movies before we see Kruge's eyes mist up at having to kill Valkris (read ST III's novelization to better understand the relationship between those two.) Also, I think klingons are shown crying after ST VI... I think I recall Worf doing it at least once.

Concerning ST V, that was always the odd one of the bunch, and the Sybok connection was blatantly cobbled together in haste. BTW, wasn't the great barrier supposed to be at the edge of the galaxy? Because suddenly it is now also at the centre. Also, since that being that inhabited the planet was obviously not God, then what the heck was it and who imprisoned it there? I always hated it that no one was curious enough to try and e xp lain that. So much for the scientific spirit of Starfleet. Would have been nice to have Spock at least make a comment or two about that being at the end of the movie, much like he always used to during the series.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

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Valkrist wrote:I remember Valkris quite well, but that's not where I got my name. Valkrist was actually the name of one of the Lords of the Court of Ardor, an adventure module from ICE's Middle-earth role-playing system. Just liked the name for some reason. ;)

I doubted it was in honor of Valkris from ST III, but the sudden recollection of her name spurred me to ask something I had wondered about. Most people's screen names on UC Forums are of pretty obvious origin. ;)

BTW, here's one thing you missed that they never carried through with after ST VI: klingons having pink blood. I know that the real reason they came up with this was so that the movie would not get a PG-13 rating. Change blood to any colour other than red and suddenly it is ok with the ratings board. However, as far as continuity for the ST universe, this one was rather glaring. I can't remember seeing klingons bleed in the original series, but didn't Kruge bleed red in ST III? Obviously, in TNG and every other show thereafter, the klingons bleed red, not pink. Another strange one dealing with klingons was the one about klingons not being able to cry due to lacking tear ducts when three movies before we see Kruge's eyes mist up at having to kill Valkris (read ST III's novelization to better understand the relationship between those two.) Also, I think klingons are shown crying after ST VI... I think I recall Worf doing it at least once.

Yes, the stupid Pepto-Bismal blood. Actually, I heard that if it had been red, the movie would have been rated R (that's no one under 17 w/o parent or guardian present for those of you outside North America ;) ). [Totally off-topic, but Lucas says Revenge of the Sith will probably be PG13, the first Star Wars movie so rated, because it's "so dark."] Another bad error in that movie that made McCoy look really bad was when he told Kirk he didn't even know Klingon anatomy. I find it difficult to believe that even given the ongoing hostilities between the Federation and the Empire during McCoy's lifetime to that point, that he wouldn't have picked up at least the basics. He's supposed to be a brilliant doctor, for God's sake. Besides, in The Trouble with Tribbles, McCoy knows from a few seconds of readings of Arne Darvin that he's a Klingon. So yes, a big continuity blunder. And the tear ducts thing, pretty dumb. Actually, that and the scene with Colonel Worf (since when was that a rank in the Klingon military?) dipping his fingers into the blood and intoning, "This is not Klingon blood" were added for the laserdisc and DVD. They'd both have been better left out. I don't recall Klingons with tears ever streaming down their faces, but yes, their eyes definitely mist up pretty good. Perhaps the usually precise Spock could more accurately have said that Klingon tear ducts were atrophied and couldn't produce copious tears, or something like that. Another bad thing about VI...Spock is really out of control in it. He boxes that phaser out of Valeris' hand with a hateful glare on his face (downright human!), and later commits what can only be described as mind rape on her. Yes, it's for the good of galactic peace, but.... There were a lot of things about ST VI I didn't like, and to me it was no better than V. Let's see: 1) tremendously bad jokes (the boot search and crewman with big webbed feet, the whole searching thru a dozen paper books and trying to speak Klingon bit), 2) anachronistic technology (searching the ship with what looked like metal detectors that you could buy today, chefs whisking potatoes and baking turkeys when at this point the Federation had at least rudimentary replicator technology, the fact that the equipment on the Enterprise sets was junk the producers raided from electronics junkpiles somewhere (the helm console was obviously a sound mixing board, and those blinkies in the galley looked like computer panels from the 1970s--this movie was made on the cheap, and it shows), etc. So it always puzzled me that it was so heartily embraced by fandom. I think so many people buy so totally into the "odd number bad, even number good" myth that their like or dislike of a ST movie is predetermined before they even see it.

Concerning ST V, that was always the odd one of the bunch, and the Sybok connection was blatantly cobbled together in haste. BTW, wasn't the great barrier supposed to be at the edge of the galaxy? Because suddenly it is now also at the centre.

The one at the edge was the Energy Barrier, the one in the center was the Great Barrier. That's lame, I know, but I'm sure that's how they'd e xp lain it. In reality, there would be nothing like an energy barrier at the edge of the galaxy. However, it's believed that the center of most galaxies, including ours, contain enormous black holes, and they would certainly have an even more enormous accretion disk. Another dumb thing about V is when they pierce the Great Barrier, this oddball planet looks like a glowing blue ball, but when they're on its surface, it looks like California, and there's a sun in the sky.

Also, since that being that inhabited the planet was obviously not God, then what the heck was it and who imprisoned it there? I always hated it that no one was curious enough to try and e xp lain that. So much for the scientific spirit of Starfleet. Would have been nice to have Spock at least make a comment or two about that being at the end of the movie, much like he always used to during the series.

Just another insane, very powerful alien, I suppose. In Shatner's original script, the thing on the planet WAS God, and also Satan. Harve Bennett told him in no uncertain terms they were absolutely not filming that, as it would offend practically everyone on earth. And yes, there was no e xp lanation from Spock. Something that most of the old cast movies lacked was the same spirit or feel of the TV show. I think the reason why IV is my favorite is to me, it best captures the feel of the old show, at least in terms of the camraderie of the crew. It has also has some gentle fun with everyone without making anybody into a buffoon. V also did the camraderie between The Big Three very well; that was the best part about that movie.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

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I liked the story behind ST: VI. the peace with the klingons and the corruption within starfleet gave starfleet a more realistic feel. i know earth then is paradise, but EVERYONE cant be non-racist (in this case, race being actual race, not skin color)as far as colonel worf, i guess there is a General, so generals and colonels follow along the same ranking path as army i think (i dont know rankings all too much, if i was in the army, i'd be hung for not showing respect, cuz i'm ig'nant).
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Looks like alot of people are reading the thread but noone is talking but a few :) well i thought we could talk about each movie maybe... so whats everyones few on Star Trek: The Motion Picture


hey star trek rocks:head_bang (i just wanted to use the little smilie :) ), but anyway, maybe these forums will bring new fans... i know star trek has a bad stereotype of being for pocket-protector wearing, pimple-faced, taped up glasses nerds... but when you really look at the heart of it, its rich with story and characters and ways of life.

As for The Motion Picture... it was a very slow movie, this movie probably wouldnt bring in any new fans. it was kinda confusing with how the Voyager probe became V'Ger the living mechanical being. and on a personal note, i dont like the uniforms.. they look like all-in-one kids pajamas. i am glad that Star Trek continued... to me the motion picture wasnt a good way to end (the star trek movies were originally going to be a one-shot deal).
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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BladeCollector wrote:i know star trek has a bad stereotype of being for pocket-protector wearing, pimple-faced, taped up glasses nerds... but when you really look at the heart of it, its rich with story and characters and ways of life.

Tolkien fans have been similarly negatively stereotyped, but we didn't let us stop that from enjoying it, did we? As far as the public's image of Star Trek fans or sci-fi/fantasy fans in general, well they can go take a flying leap at the moon (which is something they probably think we want to do!). When you consider the typical "public," at least in the US, what do you have? Mundanes at best (a term used by a friend of mine to describe non-SF fans, much in the same way "muggles" is used in Harry Potter), and sports-obsessed twits who think you're stupid because you don't care about basketball or baseball, but they can't tell you where Kentucky or Kansas is, let alone Afghanistan or Iraq. OK, so now you know how I feel about people who try to stereotype me. ;)
As for The Motion Picture... it was a very slow movie, this movie probably wouldnt bring in any new fans. it was kinda confusing with how the Voyager probe became V'Ger the living mechanical being. and on a personal note, i dont like the uniforms.. they look like all-in-one kids pajamas. i am glad that Star Trek continued... to me the motion picture wasnt a good way to end (the star trek movies were originally going to be a one-shot deal).

Yes, TMP would have been a sad ending for the Star Trek saga, had it been the last one. Fortunately, it made a pot full of money (it was the most successful of all 10, when you adjust for inflation), and so they ordered another one. Each one was going to be "the last," until V, and it almost was the last. Fortunately, the 25th anniversary of ST came long, so we got VI. After Nemesis, which I thought was pretty good, the future for movies looked bleak, because it only made half of what it cost. However, Paramount has started discussions w/Rick Berman about another movie.

Getting back to TMP, my thoughts about its problems.... 1) The plot was cobbled together from TOS episodes. Primarily it was "The Changeling," with a smidge of "The Doomsday Machine" (my fave episode of TOS) thrown in for good measure. 2) The pacing--and acting--were leaden. Supposedly Robert Wise shot most of the scenes 2 different ways: a much more light-hearted approach, similar to the feel of a lot of TOS episodes, and a much more somber way. The studio bigwigs said we're paying big money for this, so we want MacBeth. So we got the more somber approach. 3) The movie was colorless, not just the aptly-derided "pajamas," but the Enterprise interiors, and so forth. Most people pick V as the worst movie, but I think TMP is probably the worst. Which doesn't mean I hate it, of course!
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Yea, I dont hate any of the movies, i just like some alot better than others, and some i wouldnt watch all the time (i watch first contact like all the time)alot of people dont like the dark setting, which is understandable, i hate when i cant see... DS9 got away with it, because it was a Cardassian station. enterprise is dark, but i guess in star trek terms, they arent advanced. TOS was bright and vivid, but i think alot had to do with the times it came out... big, bright and bold colors were the thing in the 60s.. none of the series have been as bright as TOS.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Have you guys seen the DVD director's cut of ST:TMP? Though it is not one my top favourites, I haven't reviled this movie as much as other fans have, and I quite enjoy most parts of it. With the new director's cut, I find the movie to be a vast improvement over its theatrical release, cutting out essentially a lot of the problems I had with the original, which basically boiled down to glacial pacing. I find the new version to be more slick, the updated effects are extremely nice and complementing, not flashy and overwhelming like in a certain set of Lucas movies *ahem* ... and the pacing is now great.

Of course the plot has not changed and still has its shortcomings, but I find my enjoyment of this movie has gone up hugely. If you have not seen it, do yourself a favour and check it out... you won't be disappointed.

I have only one quible with the new version. In the original, after the transporter accident that kills Cmdr. Sonak and the other crewman, Kirk thumbs the console and says: "Starfleet! Did you get them back?" at which point a grave voice from the communicator replies back: "Enterprise... what we got back didn't live long enough... thankfully." Kirk looks stricken and turns to comfort a grieving Janice Rand, saying to her: "It wasn't your fault, Rand... there's nothing you could have done."

In the new version, the communication exchange with Starfleet has been cut out and Kirk delivers his line to Rand after the final scream is heard on the transporter pad. I wonder why those two lines were cut out. As graphic as the implication may have been, I think it perfectly conveyed the horror of the situation to the audience. Why did they think they had to soften this scene up? Not sure why Robert Wise decided to this, but perhaps the commentary (which I have not heard yet,) will shed some light on this edit. If they say they merely did it to shave off some time from the scene, I will be severly peeved. :loco:

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There is no director's cut for ST IV. The only two movies that have gotten the director's cut treatment so far are ST:TMP and ST II. All the others recently released on DVD are simply labelled as Special Editions.

It is noteworthy that for the longest time, fans of the series were hoping that ST V would get a much needed director's cut lift for the new DVD. When William Shatner heard that Paramount had given Robert Wise the go ahead to properly finish the first movie for the DVD, he requested of the studio that he be allowed to do the same. Plot shorcomings aside, ST V suffered from a severely curtailed budget and several special effects and action sequences had to be ditched because there was no money. Shatner wanted to redo ST V very badly, but in the end Paramount turned him down, which is a shame really. I suppose the movie deemed the movie was a loss no matter what, but I was always of the mind that if, hey... if you have a chance to make some of that money back on DVD sales by delivering a newer and better version of a movie, why not give it a shot?

PS. I should add that there were a couple of minor and subtle edits made to this Special release of ST VI, but hardly enough to call it a director's cut.

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Yea, I dont know why i said that.. i knew the first 2 were director's cuts and the rest are "special editions"... speaking of the special editions... what idiot designed the inside layout of ST: IV... the disks overlap each other, so you have to take the top one out to get to the 2nd one and if you keep it in 1-2 order, you have to take 1 back out to put 2 back in.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Yes, I have the Director's cut of TMP and it is an improvement. I didn't recall they'd cut out the "what we got back, didn't live long line." I'd guess they cut it because the voice acting on it was pretty poor, in my recollection. Either that, or they thought it was too gross.

I don't know whether Paramount negotiated with Shatner about a redo of V, or just flatly turned him down. That might be why he wanted so much money to do the Enterprise episode, the one we'll now never get to see. When 20th Century Fox tried to s***w Sigourney Weaver and James Cameron by telling them that "Aliens" lost money, therefore their share of the profits was 0, they sued. I don't recall whether they got anything out of that or not, but when the studio approached Sigourney for Alien 3, she got her money up front--$10M or $12M, as I recall--the biggest payday ever for an actress at that time.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I'm not an actor and dont know how things work... but i think its kinda crappy (you can pick another word if you'd like) that Shatner wants alot of money to appear on Star Trek Enterprise... some would argue that he IS star trek, the least he could do is make an appearance on the show... Brent Spiner did a 3-parter and i am sure he didnt make no shatner money.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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My recollection on the voice acting for the STTMP scene is that it was decent enough for what it was. Just a weird and une xp lainable omission, I guess.

On the Shatner and ST V issue, the rumour mill said that he had e xp ressed a clear desire to the studio to redo the movie for the DVD, but the answer was of course, no. As to whether heated negotiations took place between both parties for the final decision, that I don't know.

As much as I like Shatner and Kirk, the man does have a pretty big ego. Nevertheless, like it or not, he is a large part of what made Star Trek the show it was originally, and a lot of fans like to take their personal dislike of him and his poor relations with the rest of the cast to detract from his contributions to the entire ST mythos and history. I don't think that's entirely fair and I give the man his due. A director's cut for ST V may not have saved a bad movie, but I get the feeling the studio did shaft him and Shatner is not one to take things lying down. I'm sure he wasn't happy with the way Kirk went out in Generations (I don't think anyone was,) and later tried to get Paramount to turn his novel 'The Return' into a movie script (which of course deals with Kirk coming back.) In the end, I suspect Shatner used the 'unreasonable salary' ploy to get out of appearing on Enterprise. He has more than enough reason to be sore with Paramount, and knowing that they were desperate to increase the ratings on Enterprise, he probably saw this as a good opportunity to have some creative control over how Kirk returned. When Paramount said no way, he then probably said, fine... I'll do the show but you pay me this much $$$$... and then it all fell apart.

All this is speculation of course, but I can just see it happening and it seems feasible given what is known of these two parties. It is somewhat similar to Michael Keaton when he demanded a huge pay increase to do Batman 3. He was contractually obligated to appear in the movie, but he didn't want to do it, so he asked for so much money that the studio had no choice but to release him.

On a side note, just finished watching last week's Enterprise episode and with four of the five founding members of the Federation in place now, it looks like we may yet see the birth of that organization before the show ends. It's a real shame... this season was showing some real good strenghts and scripts, and it will all be for naught. I wonder if they will still reveal who the mysterious shadowy man from the future is...

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Man this season of Enterprise is SOOOOO awesome. then they showed the romulans werent in that ship... it took me a minute to realize it was remote control... and i love Jeffrey Combs as Shran. did you notice the Remans in the background at the end of this weeks episode. i wonder if they are going to e xp lain them or not. i know they werent a secret, i am sure all the romulans knew about remans, but i didnt think that they were actually walking around with romulans (i thought they were slaves until Shinzons coup).


as for shatner, i wish he woulda told the big-wigs up at paramount to take a star trek guest spot and shove it until they actually attempt to put any backing in the show. i hope manny coto pulls out no stops and ends with a HUGE bang. i read somewhere that the crew and cast werent supprised so they had the finale this season written as a series finale, just in case... they wanted to make sure everything was tied up.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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I just read on the msnbc website that there has been 27,405 people vote in a star trek enteprise poll... 77% say it is terrible and the show is great, 9% are fine with it and 14% say they are torn, because it really wasnt that good, but didnt need to be cancelled. so it looks like alot of people are really upset, but like we've said... theres not much you can do when the actual studio cancels you and the station that carries you is owned by the same studio.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Miscellaneous replies to Val and BladeCollector....

BC, re: the price of the Star Trek boxes vs. Fresh Prince. Fresh Prince was a half hour show, vs. an hour for Star Trek. Also, with few exceptions ST always did a 26-episode season prior to Enterprise, a rarity. Most shows these days do 20-22 episodes (which is why there are SO many repeats). So it's not really comparing apples to apples to compare Star Trek and Fresh Prince. But it is apples and apples to compare Star Trek and The X Files. Both shows' season sets list for $150 or so and usually go for around $100. Those are the only two hour-long, full season shows I have on DVD, and as they're from different studios, I'm assuming Paramount's pricing is not out of line. Also, they typically run a $25 rebate if you get the last 2-3 seasons (I guess they figure most buyers are running out of steam then, esp. since they crank the entire series out in a year). I'm not trying to unduly hold up for Paramount, whose previous greed-fest involved releasing TOS in individual, 2-episode discs (I did NOT bite on those). I just think their pricing is par for the course.

Val, re: Shatner.... Yes, the man does have an ego the size of the galaxy. I think he's about 90% entitled to it, because as you say, he's a large part of TOS' success. Together with Nimoy and Kelley, he's about 98% of its success. I know there are many motivations going on behind those hazel eyes. All the original cast tend to blame Star Trek for type-casting them, which is half-justified. It DID undoubtedly cause them to be type-cast. However, we'd probably have never have heard of them otherwise! I suspect they all tend to forget that. And undoubtedly, the thought crosses Shatner's mind to stick it to Paramount occasionally as revenge for real or perceived injustices. The problem is, he can stick it to Paramount all he wants, and it doesn't really hurt Paramount. Sure, they don't get a Shatner guest appearance in Enterprise, and as a result make 25 cents less on the show than they would have if he had appeared. Who he does hurt is his long-suffering fans. Let me say that I'm not so self-absorbed as to feel he owes it to me or any other person to appear on Enterprise if he can't find it in his heart to do so for less than a king's ransom. However, given his age (early-mid 70s) and the poor health of the Star Trek franchise, this may have been his last chance to appear in Star Trek. If he wanted a better send off than he got in Generations (and his death was almost as dismal and pointless as Tasha Yar's), this was his best shot at it. (Sidebar topic: why did he agree to get killed, and so lamely? He must have signed the contract before he read the script, which is undoubtedly very common. Still, with the clout he wields, I'd have thought he could have called the shots.)

Re: the founding of the Federation, if they do that in Enterprise, it'll be a major continuity gaffe. In TNG, Troi said that the Federation was founded in 2161, which would have been a few years after Enterprise's time, even if it had run a full 7 years. To do it at the end of 4 would be really bad. However, Berman has said they're not beholden to things that were said 10 years ago, so anything's possible.

Re: shadowy man from the future...I doubt it. They wrapped up that temporal cold war story at the beginning of this season. Berman said that's completely the end of it. If they didn't reveal his identity by then, I don't think they're going to. Tho, I thought they did discuss it somewhat, at least to the extent of revealing what race he belonged to. I didn't catch part of the first episode this season, as I was on my big trip to the LOTR exhibit in Boston and missed part of it.

Have you guys seen that movie "Free Enterprise"? It's about 2 ST fans (one of them played by Eric MacCormack of "Will and Grace" fame) who happen to meet and get hooked up with Shatner, playing himself. He's looking at porn in a bookstore, as I recall. It's a pretty funny movie, if your e xp ectations aren't too high. A lot of people on the forum will appreciate this: when the guys are trying to guilt Shatner into doing something, or whatever it is they're up to, they tell him "you're an American icon!" Shatner says, "I'm Canadian!"
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I hope noone took my fresh prince line seriously :happy_jum (it was my attempt to make a stupid joke). shoot, even if the DVDs were 60-70 i wouldnt complain, i was thinking about buying them used on those certain websites... someone i know bought a DS9 and said it was great condition. if you figure 100 each, for TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager and Enterprise (when they come out), that is 28 seasons = $2,800, but oh well..... i'll get em' one day.

so, it just looks like its me, Olorin and Valkrist :) ... its still fun... well how about we move to ST: II - Wrath of Khan.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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I absolutely HATED Q during the first season. He reminded me of Trelayne from TOS, and I hated him too. I softened during the second season, due to the excellent Q episode that introduced the Borg, and by the third season, when Q lost his powers, I was a Q fan. I thought that was an hysterical episode.

Q was kind of a dud in his sole appearance on DS9; they just didn't gel with him. He fared a bit better in Voyager, but to me, he was always Picard's bete noire. I'm not sure about the prospects for a ST movie featuring Q. They usually try to aim these movies at more of a mass audience that isn't necessarily familiar w/ST, who wouldn't know Q's backstory. On the other hand, they made movies with Khan and the Borg, which also involved backstory, and they were still accepted by the mass market.

And speaking of Khan, yes let's talk ST II. That's probably most people's fave ST movie, though not mine (that honor goes to IV). I thought II was a good movie definitely. There were many cool things about it: space battles, the Genesis concept (a little hard to believe, but whatever), Kirk dealing with aging, the Kirk/Spock relationship, the Kirk/Khan relationship, and so forth. Then there were the things that were not so hot. The joke of having Saavik "take her out" being so nervewracking fell pretty flat to me, since Sulu was still doing the driving! If Saavik had given a bum order, Sulu would have compensated. The best thing about that was that it set up Kirk returning the favor in VI by having Valeris "take her out" at 1/4 impulse--that was great. Kirk's scream of "Khan!", anticipating Howard Dean by 22 years, was pretty silly, I thought. There were some continuity errors thrown in for good measure. Khan alludes to being a prince on Earth 200 years ago. It should have been closer to 300. I'd give them a pass on that, since they hadn't formalized the chronology yet then, except the vintage on McCoy's Romulan ale conflicts with Khan's statement. And what's with Khan's crew? While Khan is 60 years old or whatever, his crew are all 20-somethings. I didn't e xp ect them to go back and get all the same extras they used for his people in TOS, but they should have at least gotten people the proper age. It always has me wondering if these guys are supposed to be the children of Khan's original crew, and he's the only original left. Then there's Khan's righthand man--what's his name again? In TOS, it's Joaquin. In ST II, it's Joachim. Seems the guy had an ethnicity change operation, from Hispanic to Germanic, assuming it's supposed to be the same person. And Kirk's son.... Is birth control still only 95% effective 300 years from now, or are men still so cavalier when it comes to practicing it? Of course, Kirk's situation is a lot like Roz' situation on "Frasier," when she got pregnant. She wails that birth control is only 99% effective and she couldn't beat those odds! So, being Don Juan has caught up with Kirk--and he's got the most annoying offspring in the ST universe--at least prior to the birth of Wesley Crusher.

Lastly, in the good/bad category... Spock's death. While it is absolutely in character for Spock to sacrifice himself to save the ship, in the broader context it's rather pointless to kill off a character and then bring him back the very next movie. Especially when you have to resort to a rather big stretch of the imagination to do so. However, the death was EXTREMELY well done, and during the eulogy, when Kirk's voice breaks when he says, "his was the most...", it gets me every time.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I' have to agree with Q... the pilot episode with Q.. it was one of those that you really didnt know quite what to think of him...but after that Q becomes one of the highlights of the season when he appears. I loved the Borg episode with Q... just showing starfleet (humanity in particular) that they arent the "top dogs" in the galaxy, and all Q was trying to do was to get Picard to acknowledge that fact. picard rather pompously states that they are ready for anything.

Someone mentioned Tasha Yar... they didnt have to kill her, but the actress wanted to leave the show to become a movie star (we all know how good that worked out) so she become the re-occurring Sela and Tasha in the alternate universe eps. Just think of what happened due to Tasha Yar dying. That goofy looking Klingon (watch a 1st season ep.. Worf looks retarded) in the 1st season evolved into one of the most deep characters in the whole series.

As for Star Trek II... i liked it, but it wasnt my favorite (First Contact for me). Some things will stand out forever... i remember as a kid, watching the bugs in the ears was creepy. i liked the storyline. the space battles were cool, especially the hide-n-seek in the nebula. i loved the part when they were stranded on the stage 2 part of the genesis project and Kirk calls up spock and suprises everyone with kirk and spocks secret code about leaving in an hour. i wish i could find the exact quote. i'd put khan in my top 3 or 4.

Spock dying... well at the time this was the last movie and they wanted to go out with a bang, they just happened to leave it a little open-ended, just in case. which turned out good for spock, because he came back to life and continued on to guest star in TNG.

as for spocks regeneration... i've never understood why he came back as a baby, if anything, i would think the Genesis thing (would you call it a bomb or genesis missile/torpedo) would have brought spock back as an adult, because he was an adult in his torpedo case. why would he become a child?
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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You guys forgot the biggest continuity error in ST II: how the heck did Khan recognize Chekov when the latter wasn't even aboard the Enterprise when Khan was first picked up? That was a pretty glaring one. As for Genesis and Spock coming back as a newborn instead of an adult, I suppose it had something to do with renewal at the most basic level. The Genesis planet and star came into being as primordial, so it follows that the Genesis matrix would restore Spock as a baby. Lastly, on Spock's death - it isn't really fair to call it a bad idea in the sense that he came back in the next movie because Leonard Nimoy only agreed to be in ST II if Spock was killed off. He did not want to play the part anymore,, and that's a fact. The Nick Meyer and Nimoy however, were clever enough to add the scene where Spock melds briefly with McCoy in the engine room. Originally that was meant to be something akin to Spock passing on his last will and testament to his friends, or his legacy, if you will. After the box-office and fan success of ST II, Paramount knew they had to make another movie, and the fans wanted Nimoy back. He agreed to return but only if he got creative control and the director's chair for ST III. Paramount agreed, and the rest is history.

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I guess I didn't think it necessary to point out such an obvious gaffe as Chekov recognizing Khan. ;) Actually, there's a feasible e xp lanation or two around that. 1) Chekov was actually on board the Enterprise during the first season, but was not a bridge officer at that time, so we didn't see him. 2) Chekov wasn't on board, but the Khan incident was so notorious, or Kirk so proud of defeating him, that all new crew members learn about it during their Enterprise orientation session. I don't remember Chekov's exact dialog from that scene, but I don't think it would preclude either theory.

As far as Nimoy and Spock's death, Nimoy flatly denies that he insisted on Spock's death or wanted him killed off. That rumor grew out of the fact he called his first autobiograpy "I am Not Spock." He tried to distance himself from Spock not because of dislike of the character, but only in hope of being considered for other roles. His second autobiography, called "I am Spock," e xp resses his ambivalence about the idea of Spock's death. He didn't really want Spock to die, but if it were to be the last ST, why not go out in a blaze of glory?

The nebula chase in ST II was, intentionally or accidentally, a tip of the hat to the hide and seek between the Enterprise and the Romulans in "Balance of Terror" in TOS. Now there was a Romulan you could really respect, in spite of the fact he was the "bad" guy.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Well, I've heard very differently about the Spock death from various sources, but I suppose only he and the Paramount execs will ever know for sure.

I've heard one Chekov theory that says he was ill in sickbay when Khan was there and that is why the two know each other but Chekov is not on the bridge. Your second theory does not work because Khan also clearly recognizes Chekok: "I never forget a face... Mr. Chekov, isn't?"

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Chekov not being a bridge officer does seem feasible... i know there are over 1000 people aboard the 1701-D, i would imagine that number is quite a bit less in the TOS 1701, but the viewer never would see all of the crewmen... Khan could have ran into him in a hallway or something offscreen.


the death of spock, i think, was just because it was supposed to be the last movie, and no better way of going out that have a major character die... nobody would forget that. even if he did come back, he had a more meaningful death than kirk... but the 2nd way kirk died at the end of generations was alot better than getting shot in the back, which was the original death scene.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Speaking of Chekov... boy he cracks me up every time he talks. Getting his "Vs" and "Ws" switched.. especially in Star Trek IV..."Ve are looking for the nuclear wessels"... speaking of that part in the movie, it was unscripted... they wanted natural reactions, so Chekov and Uhura were asking random people on the street.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Khan recognizing Chekov--I forgot about that!

Chekov's accent--one of the producers once said, behind his back, that he had the worse Russian accent in Hollywood and they could replace him in a heartbeat. I believe Koenig was asking for more money.... I took a year of Russian while I was in college and although I can't claim to remember a whole lot about it (except that silent letters are so common as to make English seem easy), I don't recall at the time that I thought that the pronunciation was such that a Russian speaker would tend to swap "V" and "W" in English. On the other hand, Walter Koenig is of Russian descent and although he was born here, grew up hearing Russian at home, so I won't question his accent.

Crew complement of the 1701 was generally given as 430.

You guys will love this. On NBC tonight, they reported that the US Air Force spent $25,000 (which is less than lunch money where the military is involved) funding a study on beaming troops and vehicles from place to place! It gets better. The company that did the study was called "Warp Drive Metrics" and is located in Las Vegas. Anyway, the results were that teleportation won't be possible for quite a long time, but that it should be studied, at a suggested investment of at least $7 million/year. The Air Force declined. During the segment, they showed clips from "Mirror, Mirror" and ST II. They also interviewed Shatner. He sounded quite keen to be able to beam to work instead of driving in LA traffic. Anyway, at the end of the segment, which came at the end of the news, Brian Williams said he guessed we'd still have to drive home tonight.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I noticed an odd thing last night, watching TOS "Whom Gods Destroy" (always one of my least favorite episodes, buy hey, I bought the box set and I'm slowly churning my way through it). At the end of the teaser, the madman Garth is holding a phaser on Kirk and Spock. It then goes to the opening credits, and when it comes back, Garth's henchman are carrying Spock away. He's been phaser-stunned. Were they doing this ep so cheap that they couldn't afford that phaser shot? Or did the episode get chopped somehow in the DVD mastering process? It just seems so unlikely that they wouldn't have shown him phasering Spock. Of course, both the hand phasers and the ship's phasers are used pretty extensively in this ep, so maybe they really were trying to save a little money. Regarding the other possibility, editing error, that doesn't seem likely because at the end of the teaser, the music swells to its climax and the scene fades to black, and at the beginning of the 1st act, the episode titles appear. So there doesn't seem to be anything left out. Unfortunately I've gotten rid of my laserdiscs, so I can't pop it in for comparison.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I just watched ST: Nemesis on Showtime today and i just noticed something. The Enterprise was on its way to meet up with the fleet and protect Earth, and Data tells picard they will meet the fleet in 40 minutes, but before they get there, they must go through that rift that blocks all long-range communication. Well Shinzon ambushes the Enterprise in the rift... my thought was, wouldn't the fleet know that the enterprise had to go through the rift and be waiting, and if the enterprise didnt show up in time, or was in the rift for longer than they should have been, wouldnt you think the fleet or at least another ship would come look for them.


I also was thinking of something else with cloaked ships... Georgi once set up a Tachyon net to detect cloaked ships.... a bunch of ships giving off tachyon bursts or something to each other ship making a net.... this sounds good and all, but space isnt on a plane... couldnt a ship literally just go down and go underneath the ships and then around them? sometimes things in trek make it seem that everyone travels on a linear path, but couldnt they travel along another plane? i dont know if i am using the correct terms, but i think you can get what i am talking about.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

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It was an episode that there were rumors that Romulan warbirds were trying to get into federation space, and Geordi (i misspelled it earlier) came up with the Tachyon feild/net... Data also got command of a ship during this... and his first officer didnt want to serve under an andriod... data also was the one to find a flaw in the net and didnt follow picards orders... i'll try and find the exact episode name and number.. i believe it was in Season 5 ... it hasnt been that long since the ep came on Spike TV.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Pure Star Trek Discussion

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I remember that episode. I think in that case the Feds had a rough idea of where the cloaked ships would be, and thus the net would be effective if they simply dragged it through that area. Since the Romulans had no clue what the Feds were up to, they wouldn't have had enough time to evade the net by going over or under it before it came online.

You are right though about things always being roughly on the same plane in ST shows. The only time you really see a lot of height and depth is when they battle massive things like a Borg cube. Technically in space, and with artificial gravity that has its centre on a ship, any vessel can travel at any angle or plane. However, I think the writers just decided for simplicity's sake that it would look silly for the Enterprise to regularly encounter ships flying upside down. :p

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