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I would be lying if I suggested I am not excited about this but I must also say my excitement and expectations are tempered by experience. There have been a lot of old TV series revivals in the last couple of years; it's all the rage now. But I'll talk about just one that was near and dear to my own heart, and that was The X Files. During its first run, and when it was really on its game, it was fantastic. I liked it better than Star Trek (I know, heresy). As with all shows, its quality declined as the years wore on, and like many shows, it probably outstayed its welcome by a couple of years. It wrapped up in 2002 (the same year as Nemesis was in theaters, come to think of it). But considered together, its nine seasons were a big deal in TV history and a touchstone of science fiction TV.

Flash forward to 2016, and Chris Carter produces a 6-episode X Files "Event Series," dubbed "Season 10" by the fans, and flash forward another 2 years, and we have a 10-episode Season 11. The two seasons did some things right: they brought back Mulder and Scully, they brought back some of the show's other recurring characters, and they did a mix of mythology episodes and "monster of the week" episodes. But that's about where the done-right list ends. I think Chris Carter was simply away from TV too long, or away from The X Files too long, and he lost his touch. Of 16 total episodes in this revival, none were as good as the best episodes from the first nine years, the best new episodes were decent but no better than middle of the road quality compared to the old X Files, and the worst episodes were just train wrecks. And Chris Carter wrote and directed the worst episodes of the revival. Point of all of this is, be careful when you wish for something (like a show coming back), because you just may get it...and it may not live up to its lofty predecessor.

And other than Patrick Stewart, the new show will largely be made by people who had nothing to do with TNG. The new show is a lot more likely to look like and feel like Discovery than TNG. Not that there's anything wrong with Discovery in that regard, but if we're expecting the new show to be like popping in a BluRay of a newly discovered, long lost Season 8 of TNG, it won't be. TNG had what I'll call a very sedate quality. It tended to be very measured, and in some ways typified the Star Trek stereotype of a bunch of people sitting around a big table talking. Discovery's feel is much more "let's keep things moving." And then there is the serialization aspect. I very much anticipate the new show to have an arc for each season, much like Discovery does. That was implied by what either Stewart or Kurtzmann said, that they've been discussing story arcs.

What else do we know about Picard's return so far? Very little. This is almost certainly not going to be be a full-blown revival of TNG, with the whole crew coming back (though I can't imagine some familiar faces won't pop up from time to time). It's going to be where Picard is in his life now. And Patrick alluded to the fact that Picard could be a very different person by now, as he's had years more life under his belt. And as for speculation about specific plot points, will it be post-Nemesis? Yes, that was explicit in what he said. But will this deal with the vastly changed geopolitical (galactopolitical?) environment following the destruction of Romulus? Well, if I were to speculate, it will probably at least touch on it, if only in passing reference. But remember, if the passage of time since the events of Nemesis is the same in Picard's life as the years since Nemesis was in the theaters in our world, it's been about 10 years since Romulus was destroyed. It could all be settled history by now.

So we really don't know what we're going to get. And for that matter, we don't know when we're going to get it. They've been talking about it behind the scenes for several months and just now announced it. From the time Discovery was announced until it actually premiered was almost 2 years. Patrick Stewart will be 80 in 2 years, if he's still alive (perish the thought that he might not be). So there are a lot of uncertainties. But, guardedly, I am excited.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Surprising news indeed, and exciting, but I am tempering that with a healthy dose of caution and cynicism. I don't like Alex Kurtzman or any of JJ's cronies for that matter, so I'm a bit hesitant with what they will do to poor Picard. Like BC, I would watch an entire series of our dear captain just sipping tea and reminiscing about his days on the Enterprise, but as Discovery as proven, the current generation of shows (and Trek movies) are pushing for a lot of flash and dubious substance. The balance on Discovery is still in the positive for me, but they are one bone-headed decision away from turning me off of that show. Similarly, this new Picard series will have to be dealt with all the delicate attention and care that it deserves or Patrick Stewart will be the first to walk away, before any of us even get a chance to.
This Space for Rent

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I think we are stuck with Abrams and Kurtzman and the like for the foreseeable future. I think the perception is that the old style of Star Trek storytelling is passe in the modern era and could never compete with the sizzle of shows like Game of Thrones. For me, as long as they stick to the core of Star Trek, I can live with it. And Discovery did that. For me Saru was a breakout character, like Spock or Data, someone very different who is learning how to get along with people who are very different from him. And they very much invested the spirit of Star Trek into Michael Burnham, with her doing what she believed to be right even if it was difficult. And Tilly, well I just love Tilly because she's so nerdy without being Wesley Crusher. That scene where she realized that the Georgiou in front of her was the Mirror Georgiou and gave the salute, that was a hoot.

There have been quite a few comments online saying they could watch a show that just consisted of Picard sitting on his porch drinking tea. The one I got the biggest kick out of was someone saying the show could be about anything as long as Ian McKellen plays Picard's husband. I don't see that happening, Trek's long-overdue embrace of LGBTQ representation notwithstanding. But how cool would it be to have Ian on as a guest star? I could totally see that happening, in light of their friendship.

As for what I want out of the show, big-picture....I hope it is about Picard playing some major role in the Federation. It would be humiliating for him to still be a captain after all this time, and at his age I'd think he'd be retired from Starfleet and wouldn't be hanging around as an admiral. As far as being an ambassador, that's already been done with Spock and with fantasy versions of Picard. I guess I'd want him to be the president of the Federation, or the former president of it.

BTW, if the show is set literally 20 years after Nemesis, Picard will be 94 years old. No lie.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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YES!!!! This is some good news to start the new year off!
Now lets just get some of the other TNG alum on board, I posted in the other star trek thread when I met Frakes, he basically said he is just waiting for a phone call to come back as Riker.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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The second I saw the Vineyard, I thought, this feels right. Maybe they’re going to do a show for us older Star Trek fans. Of course, we have to remember: 1 45 second trailer does not at series make. But so far it looks good!
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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That was super cool, and I was totally floored to see Data (or B-4). I had heard they didn't have the rights to have other cast members from TNG appearing on the show, but maybe they opened up the purse strings for the pilot?

Must confess I wasn't keen on the whole "girl with a destiny" tired trope. Can we please just move past this sort of thing? I want Picard to be the focus of this show, not another Rey from Star Wars. :rolleye:
This Space for Rent

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Valkrist wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:41 pm That was super cool, and I was totally floored to see Data (or B-4). I had heard they didn't have the rights to have other cast members from TNG appearing on the show, but maybe they opened up the purse strings for the pilot?

Must confess I wasn't keen on the whole "girl with a destiny" tired trope. Can we please just move past this sort of thing? I want Picard to be the focus of this show, not another Rey from Star Wars. :rolleye:
Well I could be wrong, but to me it seemed obvious from the context of the preview that she is another former Borg.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Olorin wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:21 pm
Well I could be wrong, but to me it seemed obvious from the context of the preview that she is another former Borg.
You do realize that none of what you just said invalidates what I said, right? Reclaimed, former Borg are nothing new, so she's still that "girl with a destiny". Honestly, how many time have we have seen that plot device in recent film/tv history?
This Space for Rent

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Valkrist wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:41 pm That was super cool, and I was totally floored to see Data (or B-4). I had heard they didn't have the rights to have other cast members from TNG appearing on the show, but maybe they opened up the purse strings for the pilot?

Must confess I wasn't keen on the whole "girl with a destiny" tired trope. Can we please just move past this sort of thing? I want Picard to be the focus of this show, not another Rey from Star Wars. :rolleye:
I hadn't heard anything about them "not having rights"...that sounds very fishy on the face of it. I think they were simply trying to emphasize this was not TNG 2.0 and people should not expect to see the whole gang together, certainly not all the time. In any event, I'm amazed they were able to keep Data and 7 under wraps until they announced it.

I must confess, I nearly tear up when I watch this trailer. Not only is Picard my favorite character from all of Star Trek, but just the look of this and what they've said about it makes me dare to hope that this is the return of true Star Trek.

I've read quite a few comments on line of people bursting into tears when they saw it.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Olorin wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:43 am
Valkrist wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:41 pm That was super cool, and I was totally floored to see Data (or B-4). I had heard they didn't have the rights to have other cast members from TNG appearing on the show, but maybe they opened up the purse strings for the pilot?

Must confess I wasn't keen on the whole "girl with a destiny" tired trope. Can we please just move past this sort of thing? I want Picard to be the focus of this show, not another Rey from Star Wars. :rolleye:
I hadn't heard anything about them "not having rights"...that sounds very fishy on the face of it. I think they were simply trying to emphasize this was not TNG 2.0 and people should not expect to see the whole gang together, certainly not all the time. In any event, I'm amazed they were able to keep Data and 7 under wraps until they announced it.

I must confess, I nearly tear up when I watch this trailer. Not only is Picard my favorite character from all of Star Trek, but just the look of this and what they've said about it makes me dare to hope that this is the return of true Star Trek.

I've read quite a few comments on line of people bursting into tears when they saw it.
I'm certain there was a rights issue because I recall seeing it come up more than once in articles discussing the scope of this series and what might be and might not be in it. It has to do with the whole CBS/Paramount split, and once TNG jumped over to Paramount for the movies, CBS lost access to the characters. Similar to the same reason Discovery had to change 25% of the Enterprise's design before it could appear on the show. The whole thing is stupid but that's money for you.

Anyway, even Frakes had alluded to the fact that for him to appear as Riker, it would be very complicated so people shouldn't get their hopes up. I can only imagine how much it cost them to get access to the Picard character alone. Obviously something changed since the early days of the development of the show and CBS has regained access to some of the TV cast, which is great news.
This Space for Rent

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I've been out of town for work and out of the loop so I just watched the trailer and loved it, hearing Picard say engage again and saying he doesn't want it to end had me choking up.

I saw some stills on Facebook and when I saw 7 of 9 I let out an audible Holy $hit :)
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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BladeCollector wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:25 pm I've been out of town for work and out of the loop so I just watched the trailer and loved it, hearing Picard say engage again and saying he doesn't want it to end had me choking up.

I saw some stills on Facebook and when I saw 7 of 9 I let out an audible Holy $hit :)
As I live and breathe...BC lives and breathes! Welcome back!
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Olorin wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:07 pm
BladeCollector wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:25 pm I've been out of town for work and out of the loop so I just watched the trailer and loved it, hearing Picard say engage again and saying he doesn't want it to end had me choking up.

I saw some stills on Facebook and when I saw 7 of 9 I let out an audible Holy $hit :)
As I live and breathe...BC lives and breathes! Welcome back!
Hahaha! Sorry, work has been.. Well, ugh, lately. Our 10 year compliance report for our accreditation is due in a month... :( but it will he over soon!
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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We are less than a week away now from Picard. In addition to the trailers, there are several actual clips from the show online. It just looks, so, so good. I hope we are not disappointed! But it looks like they know what the expectations are and they are determined to meet them.

Fingers crossed!
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I'm doing my best to remain optimistic.

I simply hope the series honours it's main star (the show is titled after him after all), and it's not all about the new crew of young, good-looking, fast-talking, swaggering know-it-alls that would be more at home on the CW than this show.

Also wary of the "lost young woman with special powers/heritage/importance is the key to saving the universe" plotline.

Such a tired trope.
This Space for Rent

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I know at least one person who's seen the premiere episode, she's a die hard trekkie and said she loved it...

I am super optimistic and cant wait for this show. I also am having faith that Patrick Stewart wouldnt agree to do a show if he really didnt believe in it.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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BladeCollector wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:40 am I know at least one person who's seen the premiere episode, she's a die hard trekkie and said she loved it...

I am super optimistic and cant wait for this show. I also am having faith that Patrick Stewart wouldnt agree to do a show if he really didnt believe in it.
I’ve had my hopes dashed a time or 20 too many to be super optimistic about anything, but I am guardedly optimistic about this. All the clips and trailers I’ve seen look good, and there is nobody more invested in the character of Picard than Patrick Stewart. Not only did they convince him to do it, but he also had a lot of impact on the stories and the writing process.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Valkrist wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:26 pm I've seen it but I'll wait until Olorin says something before commenting. Other than perhaps Deimos, I'm not sure anyone else here cares that we openly discuss it.
Oh, my Val, you flatter me! But I won't be watching it.
Pace you and BC and Orlorin, but I have little interest in anything related to ST post TOS, and not too much interest in that either.
And not to single out ST I have even less interest in SW ....channeling W.C. Fields: "I'm not prejudiced; I hate everybody equally." ;-D

But depending on the specific topic about either series, I will read posted links and comments by you all, because at one time I did like both SW and ST, and I always enjoy reading what your take is (or Olorin's or BC's) on the situation.
And I also like to keep tabs on what is current in Hollywood because "politics is downstream from culture".

PS @ Olorin... I haven't forgotten about our other discussion....life gets in the way.
I have not a few thoughts in my head. Will put an answer together this weekend.

"Eternity is an awful long time, especially towards the end."

"What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing.
It also depends on what sort of person you are.” -- CSL

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OK, some thoughts.

In general, I liked it and thought the show is off to a promising start.

I think it is a brave choice to stick with Data being dead (though of course it can still be undone later). Was it a prerequisite for Brent Spiner's participation? Either way, it explicitly nixes a plot point from the "canon" "Star Trek: Countdown," which established that Data's personality did take root in B-4, with the latter becoming Data (and Captain of the Enterprise after Picard's departure). I personally feel nothing from the books is canon, as that has always been Paramount's position. Honestly, I don't know how they let them bill those comics as canon. But I diverge. Another comic negation: Picard's career. In the comic, Picard became an ambassador. Again, I'm fine with these comic negations. I just thought it was a little surprising.

Now, as to Dahj and her twin in some way being derived from Data. I'm not sure how that was supposed to have happened, as the explanation to me was a bit glossed over with some technobabble. I'll have to go back and rewatch it. But it does raise a point, which is, did Data never do backups? I mean, come on, C3PO gets backed up. Is Star Trek going to let Star Wars score a point on it? Yet it's implied that there were no backups. Otherwise, Data could, if nothing else, exist as a hologram, even if they have not yet created an android body equal to his own (and if they haven't created a good android so many years after Data, why?). And when were these Dahj androids created? And who created them? Was it long enough ago that Data wsa aware of it, hence his ability to paint them? Or were they created to look like the woman in the painting, to ensnare Picard? The writers have succeeded in setting up a mystery, so let's hope its resolution is satisfying.

How can Mars' atmosphere still be burning 15 years after the attack? How can it be burning at all? Of course, the real Martian atmosphere, what there is of it, is mostly carbon dioxide and wouldn't burn. And in Picard's time, Mars has been partially terraformed. Did they terraform it to include lots of hydrogen or something? That doesn't make sense. I hope the show doesn't go down the path of doing something that's scientifically very improbably just because it sounds cool.

I very much liked Chateau Picard. No matter why a person retires, it'd be nice to have a place like that to retire to. And with two dedicated caregivers, no less. Genre trivia: the actress playing the female Romulan, Orla Brady, also played the ex-wife of Walter Bishop (John Noble) in Fringe. I very much liked her in that, so I'm glad to see her in Picard, in albeit a very small part.

Speaking of retirement and the circumstances of Picard's retirement brings me to another observation. The trailers presented somewhat of a red herring. It is suggested in them that Picard led a rescue armada, and left Starfleet after that. However, here we learn he was only in charge of its construction, and retired in protest after the Federation refused to start another effort after the Mars attack.

And lastly, we now know for sure the source of the 2387 supernova: Romulus' own sun. It was one of my (many) quibbles about the JJ Abrams Star Trek reboot, that it implied a supernova could physically destroy a planet in a different star system. Of course, the star was never named in the movie. The ancillary materials called the star Hobus, though again, no location. So the Picard show corrects/resolves one of my quibbles with the Abrams movie. However, it opens a new can of worms. Why would the Romulans ever settle planets around a star that was destined to blow? Even a few thousand years before the event, it would be giving signs. Moreover, only certain stars are even capable of going supernova, so why choose one as your new primary? Not a good choice for a longevous civilization. But at least this show tried to correct one of Abrams' mistakes.

So anyway, those are my somewhat random thoughts about the show. I was surprised how quickly it flew by, in spite of at least one reviewer questioning the pacing. Of course, it was only 43 minutes, whereas the Stranger Things episodes I've been binging lately are all at least an hour. I'll definitely be looking forward to further episodes. And of course, it's already been renewed for a second season, and we know Guinan will be showing up in that. So I believe good things lie ahead.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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My turn.

Some very good observations there, Olorin, and some things that I didn't notice/think about during my viewing, but as you said, a re-watch is definitely in the cards.

I also quite enjoyed it, with some continued reservations. Part of that has to do with the lack of exposition and filling in the blanks. Yes, it's natural to want it all right away so you have some background information to provide context for what you are seeing, but it's also good practice to fill in the blanks as you go. You don't want to hammer viewers with an hour-long history lesson or they won't be back for episode 2. So, my hope for now is that the bread crumb approach is the one being taken, rather than the more common one of today's TV shows and movies (Star Wars, I'm looking at you), to adopt this arrogant attitude that makes the decision for me that I don't need to know this or that, and that it's not important. Perhaps that is so with something that is new, but when you have 40-50 years of established history behind it, you kinda want to know the whys and wherefores of how we got to where we are today.

A good example of the blink-and-you-miss-it storytelling approach is that I wasn't able to determine if the 'synthetics' referred to in the uprising and Mars attack were primitive androids or holograms. In one of the final season episodes of Voyager, we see how EMH technology is being used as what essentially amounts to slave labour for the Federation. Was what occurred on Mars a natural progression of this? Did the Doctor not call himself a "synthetic individual" at one point? I'm confused, and if the show explained what the nature of the synthetics is, I totally missed the throwaway line. For such an important plot point, it deserved more explanation. I also couldn't help but draw comparisons to Blade Runner and the Replicant technology and revolt. I felt there were too many similarities for my liking and it really detracted from the feeling they are trying to create something fresh and new. Of course this is sci-fi and there are a lot of recurring themes out there, but with BR 2049 still fresh in our minds, the whole idea felt tired and derivative.

On the Data thing, yeah I was surprised as well that most of the Countdown elements were tossed, though it does leave room for some ambiguity. There could have been a brief time in those 20 years where Picard was both an Admiral and an Ambassador (I don't think the two are mutually exclusive,) and it could be that Data's personality took to B-4 for some time (as implied at the end of Nemesis) and worked long enough for him to command the Enterprise as we see in Countdown, but then something happened and the information degraded enough that he had to be decommissioned and taken apart? 20 years is a long time, so though it is likely they're just nullifying most of the comic, there's enough room to fit things in... for now.

Speaking of comics, I'm really not into this new trend (which SW engages in as well) that you need into buy into all this additional material on a different medium just to get the full story. Is it so hard to write enough dialogue in a show or movie today to explain a couple of things? Why do I have to go out and buy four comics or books to understand what I'm seeing? Especially when it could get thrown out at any moment and declared non-canon? Countdown being the case in point. They're doing it again for Picard, calling it a "primer" for the show, and it is imaginatively called, you guessed it... Countdown! Honestly, screw off with this stuff and just give me the information over the course of the show. This such a copout tactic, and a cynical one also because it's just after more money by presenting you with pieces of the puzzle that you have to buy on the side.

Ok, back to the show itself...

- What's with Starfleet and uniforms? I was hoping they would stick with the ones introduced in First Contact, but nope, we're back to the same ones used in latter seasons of the shows. I swear Starfleet's wardrobe dept. has A.D.D.
- How is it that Romulan assassins can beam in with impunity into the heart of what should be one of the most secure locations on Earth—Starfleet HQ in San Francisco?
- Speaking of Romulans, I'm glad the Neanderthal brows are gone (mostly). That was such a dumb decision on TNG. It's good someone finally understood that evolution doesn't work that fast, unless we are in for another "The Augments"-style Klingon-virus explanation.
- Again with Romulans, when did their green blood take on highly acidic properties? The assassin that spat that gobbet at Dahj was acting like he was one of the Xenomorphs from Alien. Did I miss something? Pretty sure all those dudes were Romulans.
- Much has been debated about the use of Discovery shuttles on the Picard show. Personally I think it was just a budget decision from the same effects team, not some nefarious Easter-egg, but when did the shuttles appear? I missed it.
- Was the whole "twins" reference a hint that we might see Lore again? It irritated me to no end that any mention of his existence was ignored in Nemesis, but with Hugh coming back, will we finally learn what's happened with Lore?
- The whole thing about androids like Data being such a nearly-impossible thing to achieve... has the Star Trek universe forgotten "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" and "I, Mudd" ??? Yeah, they weren't as sophisticated, but pretty darn close.

Lastly, not sure what to make of the big reveal at the end, the Borg cube. We've known they were going to play a big part of this show, but I'm puzzled and intrigued as to what the Romulans are planning. Rebuild a damaged cube and attack the Federation as revenge for being abandoned? Seems a little too obvious but we'll see.
This Space for Rent

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OK, trying something new here to respond to some of your thoughts....
Valkrist wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:22 am So, my hope for now is that the bread crumb approach is the one being taken, rather than the more common one of today's TV shows and movies (Star Wars, I'm looking at you), Oh, you mean like introducing a new villain in an animated show that no one is watching? (Gen. Grievous).

A good example of the blink-and-you-miss-it storytelling approach is that I wasn't able to determine if the 'synthetics' referred to in the uprising and Mars attack were primitive androids or holograms. I'm pretty sure they're just a type of android. I don't really think there's much reason to assume otherwise, Voyager notwithstanding. I also couldn't help but draw comparisons to Blade Runner and the Replicant technology and revolt. I felt there were too many similarities for my liking and it really detracted from the feeling they are trying to create something fresh and new. Of course this is sci-fi and there are a lot of recurring themes out there, but with BR 2049 still fresh in our minds, the whole idea felt tired and derivative. I also thought of Blade Runner and wondered to what end these synths were being produced. 1990s Star Trek went out of its way multiple times to establish the AIs were beings and had rights, and shouldn't be thought of as slaves. Yet of course this idea never took with those in charge, hence seeing holographic doctors mining coal (or whatever) in that one Voyager episode. So I won't put it past our current writers either not to have done their homework on that issue, or to consciously repeat it because of course no one watching this show has ever watched Star Trek before.

- What's with Starfleet and uniforms? I was hoping they would stick with the ones introduced in First Contact, but nope, we're back to the same ones used in latter seasons of the shows. I swear Starfleet's wardrobe dept. has A.D.D. I guess that's a sign of having too much budget! A less flippant answer might be that I suppose they want to establish a distinctive look for each show, such that you can tell at a glance whether you're watching Picard or TNG or TNG movies or whatever. But it doesn't seem like a logical thing for a military or paramilitary organization to be changing uniform designs so often, even though with replicators it would be simple. I mean, implicit in the very word "uniform" is the notion that everyone is just alike, in the sense of all being part of a command structure, following orders, and doing your job. Which when you think about it, it's doubtful that any uniformed service would ever have the basic uniform be 3 different colors. Side note: I'm assuming you've seen the flap over the uniforms for the US Space Force...camo...in space. But at least they're using the Star Fleet delta symbol. Speaking of the real world, last fall I saw a poster of different US military uniforms from the revolution through the current day. Starfleet's uniforms changed more in the last 30 years than America's did in the last 100.
- How is it that Romulan assassins can beam in with impunity into the heart of what should be one of the most secure locations on Earth—Starfleet HQ in San Francisco? Oops! New tech, maybe?
- Again with Romulans, when did their green blood take on highly acidic properties? The assassin that spat that gobbet at Dahj was acting like he was one of the Xenomorphs from Alien. Did I miss something? Pretty sure all those dudes were Romulans. I didn't take that to be blood. I assumed it was something akin to Duke Leto's cyanide-filled tooth, where you could kill yourself and an assailant. You'll note it corroded the guy's mouth area pretty badly, so it wasn't just his standard blood.
- Was the whole "twins" reference a hint that we might see Lore again? It irritated me to no end that any mention of his existence was ignored in Nemesis, but with Hugh coming back, will we finally learn what's happened with Lore? I really hope we never see Lore again, but considering the turf this show is going to cover, I can't imagine we won't. But Lore was disassembled and should be sitting in a box somewhere, much as B4 was in this episode.
- The whole thing about androids like Data being such a nearly-impossible thing to achieve... has the Star Trek universe forgotten "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" and "I, Mudd" ??? Yeah, they weren't as sophisticated, but pretty darn close. I thought of those too, but since they were never discussed on TNG I wouldn't look for them to be here. I guess we're just supposed to assume they're too primitive to bear mention, though they certainly looked real enough. Still, any AI you can cause to melt down by backing it into a logical conundrum isn't something you'd want to base your new model on.

Lastly, not sure what to make of the big reveal at the end, the Borg cube. We've known they were going to play a big part of this show, but I'm puzzled and intrigued as to what the Romulans are planning. Rebuild a damaged cube and attack the Federation as revenge for being abandoned? Seems a little too obvious but we'll see. I've got a notion this is going to tie in to the synths somehow.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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No new insights upon a second watch?

Interesting that you still weren't able to answer my "what is the exact nature of the synthetics" question. That tells me that very important plot point is still rather ambiguous at this point. You're right in that they are probably androids, but I do wonder. Doesn't Picard make some comment about limits to the hologram lady at the Starfleet Archives or am I imagining it?

As for the uniforms, I get the wanting to have a distinctive look for each show, but though we didn't get a super close look at them, they look to be the exact same as late TNG/VOY. I find that interesting because they've never gone back to an old style before, always just moving forward with something new.

Romulan poison-pill? I had thought of that but will have to take a closer look at the scene.

Yeah, I'm not clamoring for Lore's return either, but it was an important enough piece of Data's backstory that I can't understand why it was simply swept under the rug. When Data died in Nemesis, why didn't they simply download his memory banks into Lore's perfectly good body and neural net, which was far more advanced that B-4's then? Did they think movie audiences wouldn't know who Lore was? The plot of Picard definitely seems like he would merit at least some mention. I hate loose ends like that.

The Borg Cube ending: do we think the second Dahj is aware of her true nature? She knew about her twin though I never heard the first one mention she had a twin sister and I'm sure she would have told Picard that.
This Space for Rent

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Valkrist wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:03 am No new insights upon a second watch?

Interesting that you still weren't able to answer my "what is the exact nature of the synthetics" question. That tells me that very important plot point is still rather ambiguous at this point. You're right in that they are probably androids, but I do wonder. Doesn't Picard make some comment about limits to the hologram lady at the Starfleet Archives or am I imagining it?

As for the uniforms, I get the wanting to have a distinctive look for each show, but though we didn't get a super close look at them, they look to be the exact same as late TNG/VOY. I find that interesting because they've never gone back to an old style before, always just moving forward with something new.

Romulan poison-pill? I had thought of that but will have to take a closer look at the scene.

Yeah, I'm not clamoring for Lore's return either, but it was an important enough piece of Data's backstory that I can't understand why it was simply swept under the rug. When Data died in Nemesis, why didn't they simply download his memory banks into Lore's perfectly good body and neural net, which was far more advanced that B-4's then? Did they think movie audiences wouldn't know who Lore was? The plot of Picard definitely seems like he would merit at least some mention. I hate loose ends like that. If I were to guess, they did not think the audience would know/remember Lore, because of course, they assume that more than just die hard fans are going to see the movie

The Borg Cube ending: do we think the second Dahj is aware of her true nature? She knew about her twin though I never heard the first one mention she had a twin sister and I'm sure she would have told Picard that.
I enjoyed the premiere, I was engaged in the whole episode. I've notice lately, I get distracted watching TV shows, and start scrolling thru the phone or playing a game on the phone, missing part of the show... guess I am getting Star Trek wardrobe dept ADD in my old age!
Speaking of wardrobe... are men still wearing neckties that far in the future? Speaking of current styles in the future.... are there still TMZ/Gossip-rag interviews/TV in the future?

I pretty much have the same overall comments. I am hoping Brent Spiner returns for more!
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Picard returns!

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No new insights upon rewatch but I understood some things better. For example, the explanation for how there could be an android derived from Data was "fractal neuronal cloning," wherein a single neuron from Data could contain his entire mental essence. OK, that's WAY science-fictiony, and puts the concept of compressed hard drive to everlasting shame, but let's see where it goes. Also, the mouth acid damage, which I think I was aware of first time, was very obvious second time.

I couldn't answer your exact nature of synths question definitively because I don't know the absolute answer. I just don't think there's a basis for thinking they're anything but androids. It never even occurred to me.

I didn't think the uniforms were exactly like late TNG/VOY but I didn't look that closely. I found this, but it's a bit tentative, based on stills from last spring. https://trekmovie.com/2019/05/22/a-clos ... ek-picard/ But it does confirm my impression that there is a collar, which the VOY uniforms did not have.

As to Lore, my recollection was that part (or all) of his evil nature was due to his hardware architecture, so it definitely would not do to install someone else's backup into it. I could be imagining that; it's been a while since I watched that episode.

I also was a bit jarred by neckties. We've never seen them in Trek before and I think they are one fashion idea most men would gladly say a permanent goodbye to. I also was a bit put off by the reporter scene, but didn't say anything for fear of sounding like I'm on board with the whole vilification of the media thing going on currently. Because I'm not. But when you get right down to it, she didn't ask anything any good reporter would not have asked. It's just that we don't like seeing our beloved Picard put on the spot like that, esp. after he was guaranteed it would not be brought up.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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And Star Trek presents its second two F-bombs, and it's first GD. The producers have more or less said that they don't think audiences can get with the typical old-style Star Trek dialog, which was very sanitary and not reflective of how people actually talk. I'm of mixed feelings about that. For starters, I'm not sure that the way people talk now should be a guide to how people talk in the 25th century, especially when those future people are professionals like Starfleet officers. On the other hand, according to Merriam Webster, the F bomb has been around since the 14th century, so I don't suppose it's in a hurry to go away any time soon. Lastly, it's not that I find the words offensive personally; I certainly use them often enough myself. I guess that it just seems to me that a show like this should have more refined dialog and not kowtow to current usage just because old Star Trek language is too "square."

Other than that, it was an interesting episode. I find it difficult to form to much of an opinion about any individual episode since this show feels so serialized, even more so than Discovery.

So Romulans have infiltrated Starfleet. That's disturbing. I'm assuming that commodore was supposed to be Vulcan but I'm wondering if she is actually Romulan.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Picard returns!

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I am still enjoying it definitely... the "F" bomb was kind of jarring in the sense that its Star Trek, not that I don't say that particular word about 43939 times a day, and I am sure high ranking members of military, both men and women will say it out of frustration/anger.

I do like the serialized way Star Trek has become with Discovery and now Picard... obviously its vastly different than the one off/stand alone episodes with some over arching narrative (more so with DS9). When serialized TV works, the payoff at the end is huge... but when the ending is a dud, its a like a slow burn build up to "blah"
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Picard returns!

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Just a thought or two on the episode. This new show is even more serialized than Discovery, to the extent that the three episodes those far really just flow into each other and can't be assessed individually. I'm pretty sure they meant for them to be that way, to serve as an introductory movie. I'm not sure whether the remaining will be so connected or not. But in any case, my observations will only be about details, as I don't think I can judge the episode itself.

I was a little bothered to see people still smoking and vaping at the dawn of the 25th Century. I'm not raising this because I want to call people out for their vices. I understand that they are trying to present these people as motley characters, as opposed to the arrow-straight crew of the Enterprise. But no smoking was one of Roddenberry's dictums. He didn't believe people would still be doing that in the future, and so on TOS he decreed that the uniforms wouldn't have pockets, so the actors couldn't absent-mindedly have a pack of cigarettes stuffed in the, that might be detectable on camera some how. Or so I recall. Also, didn't the resurrected country star in The Neutral Zone episode of TNG want tobacco, and everyone was clueless about what or why? Or is that my imagination? I know he was wanting booze. Anyway, the smoking strikes me as a betrayal of Roddenberry's ideals. And yet at the same time, Roddenberry was just fine with people drinking on TOS. Saurian brandy was a favored beverage. And of course, drinking can be as destructive a behavior as smoking.

Anyway, those were just my thoughts.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Yea, on one hand I get the "pop culture" stuff like vaping, but like you say, that would be long gone, in terms of Roddenberry's vision... but in reality, will these types of vices really be gone? Humans have a long history of doing bad things to themselves.

Also with the no pockets thing, yes that was his vision, but really... pockets are a necessity that I hope never go away! :P

Starting to think with this super serialized nature of Picard, so far, this should have been a long 2 hour movie (or longer).
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Picard returns!

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Some random thoughts thus far:

The swearing, vaping (drugs?), smoking: yes, it absolutely feels jarring to me in a Star Trek show/setting. There's a cynical part of me that feels this is all part of yet another misguided attempt by today's 'woke' culture to make the show seem modern, relevant, and relatable to younger audiences - as usual forgetting that your average Star Trek viewer that gives a rat's behind about watching Picard is at least 2-3 decades already beyond that demographic. The other part of me knows that Star Trek has tackled issues like addiction in various episodes in the past, though it wasn't done in a way that is so overtly on display as being something that we engage in today - like vaping, for example. It was always made abstract enough that we knew what the topic of the week was, but not so in-your-face that the show could be accused of mimicking and glamourizing it somehow in a way that would induce someone to try something they shouldn't. It's also unrealistic (despite Roddenberry's vision) to think that humanity can ever shed their unfortunate propensity for unhealthy vices. Maybe this is a way for the writers to show us that yes, there can be a hopeful future, but some parts of our character as a species are integral and will never go away. Also, we were used to most of the past Star Trek shows taking place within the confines of a Starfleet starship, which by definition should be a sanitized and regulated environment, staffed by the best professionals the Federation has to offer, Discovery's onboard hook-up rave parties notwithstanding. :rolleye:

Romulans: looks like my observation about them looking normal again was premature. They definitely have at least two vertical ridges on their heads, and a very subtle bulge that goes with it (can't find a better way to describe it). It's much better than the overt Neanderthal brows of TNG, I'll give them that, but I'm not sure why they felt a need to give this aesthetic and non-sensical evolutionary (?) appearance to the Romulans. If it was to differentiate them from Vulcans, then it falls a bit flat given that any Romulan that is not bald or has a receding hairline (Laris, Narek, Narissa) clearly does not have the ridges... because why do the prosthetics if they are hidden from view?

On the subject of our pointy-eared friends, why is a Vulcan Commodore named 'Oh'? The actress that plays her is Japanese, and the last name Oh is Korean, which is all fine and well, but it strikes me as odd that an Asiatic-looking Vulcan would have a name to match their Earth-ethnicity counterparts. When or why do Vulcan names ever follow Earth racial conventions? I know it was established long ago that Vulcans are as racially diverse as humans, but it makes no sense that names would fall along the same lines. Of course, there could be something about the Commodore's background that we don't know, but unless that somehow plays into the story, the naming choice is odd at best.

Captain Rios... what can I say? Rubbed me the wrong way right off. I am naturally averse to silly macho stereotypes, especially when they go so overboard to seem cool and uncaring. When you're travelling around to a multitude of planets and coming in contact with a bazillion possible pathogens, who in their right mind leaves a bleeding, oozing wound like that open and untreated, then nonchalantly throws a shirt over it? Just feels like throwing out common sense in favour of hitting us over the head with how tough this guy is. I'd say stupid before tough.

I'm glad those godawful Starfleet uniforms that Picard and Raffi were wearing in the flashback did not make it past that scene. One of the worst designs they've come up with yet out of the 5,324,526 ones we've seen thus far. Also, I think they did a wonderful job de-ageing Picard just enough for that scene, but they forgot to alter/filter his voice even just a bit. It sounded exactly like he does now and nothing like he did in Nemesis. I get it was supposed to be only 14 years ago, but his voice sounds so old and rough now that it really shattered the illusion that we were looking at a younger Picard.

Very nice to see Hugh again! I wonder if Seven is on that Cube and I'm hoping she calls herself Anika again when we do see her. With what that the Reclamation Project represents, it would be weird for her to continue going by a Borg designation, but then she was always stubborn and a bit weird about that.
This Space for Rent
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