Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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I cannot wait. Dune is my favorite book(s) next to LOTR and I have been following the development of this film for a long time. I had already seen a lot of stuff from the film since I am working on licensed replicas of the knives and swords, but the trailer still blew me away. It looks fantastic, and the cast is incredible. It's great to finally see ornithopters on screen that actually look like ornithopters!
KRDS

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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Kit, the folks on my favourite movie news site, while super excited for this as well, are highly skeptical that the second half will ever see the light of day. The studio's decision to not do both parts back to back in the way that has practically become a standard with projects like this has left a lot of people scratching their heads.

Sci-fi and fantasy movies are always a gamble for studios, even ones with a major book attached, like this one - witness the epic failure of the Dark Tower adaptation. There's a real chance this could be a critically acclaimed movie, yet still be an expensive flop, like BR2049.

So, do you feel this was a good move to wait and see if the first half of Dune does well, or do you think they might greenlight it before the first part is even released? Did they leave us with the very real possibility of the second part not getting made if the first disappoints at the box office (or premium streaming)?

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this.
This Space for Rent

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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It was not just a good move, it was the only move.

Deni's Dune is going to be a very faithful adaptation, other than one character change. The director and writers have been saying that for a year now, and the trailer backs it up. It's a very complex story and no studio would commit to a multi picture deal. The only way to get it made was one film at a time. Only time will tell if the masses go see it and make it successful, but I know Dune fans will, and I don't care if the others get made. For a comparison, I would rather see FOTR get made and the other two films never get made than no LOTR films at all.

Dune will be a stand alone film that has a resolution, not a cliff hanger though. People who have read the first book, which is actually broken down into three books, can probably guess where it will end. Back in February I was pretty confident that part 2 would be greenlit even before part 1, but at this point it is not even clear if the movie will actually be released in December as planned. If most theaters remain closed, and numbers stay down for the ones that are open, it will probably get bumped to next Summer. I think people will be ready to hit the theaters in December though. Everyone I know is over and done with this Covid garbage.

HBO is doing the spin off tv series the Sisterhood, which Deni will also direct part of, so another option for them is to simply do part 2 of Dune as an 8-10 episode long form for HBO.

By the way, The Dark Tower failed because it was not even an attempt at an adaptation of the Dark Tower, and it was a crappy movie. Fans of the books, like me, had zero interest in seeing it after watching the trailer. When I did finally see it, I could not even watch to the end. Utter crap. That book series can only be done as multi season, big budget tv series.
KRDS

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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God knows I'm as tired of the current state of things as most people, but this movie is unfortunately going to have to sink or swim without any help from me. I'm high risk for Covid and the chances of either the pandemic being over or me being vaccinated by December are slim and none. Thus, I probably won't be seeing it in the theater unless it does get bumped to some time next year.

It does concern me, though, that they haven't greenlit the second part. I will always remember the Bakshi LOTR. We got Part 1, and Part 2 never materialized. On the other hand, there was the recent It, which was made without Part 2, was a huge hit, and was followed by Part 2 two years later. And for course, there was Blade Runner 2049 from Villeneuve himself, a great sequel to the first and also like the first, a huge flop. So who knows.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I don't think there will be any "official" greenlighting of a part 2 until part 1 is released, but behind the scenes they are already working on it. John Spaiths is currently writing it.

Lionsgate and Legendary pictures already signed up with HBO for Dune, and HBO Max is doing the Dune spinoff series, so they have the option of releasing Dune and any sequels streaming on HBO simultaneous with theatrical. That Trolls movie that streamed this year already proved they don't need cinema screens at all to make money now, and the studio gets about 80% of the profit that way. That's where the movie industry is heading anyway. I have not gone to the theater in years because I have huge HD screen and surround sound setup in my home, as many people do, so I would love to see them do that with Dune.
KRDS

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Good points, guys.

I'm hopeful we will get the second part, but I'm resigning myself to the fact that there's no guarantee. I agree with Kit in that theatres are going the way of the dinosaurs, and I love to stay home to watch movies on my home setup anyway. Before Covid, the few times I did venture out, the experience was invariably spoiled by inconsiderate morons, so it's not something I've missed or will miss. I'll pay the extra to watch the movie on Netflix, Disney+, or HBOMax, or what have you.
This Space for Rent

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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Part of me will miss the shared experience of sitting in a theater with a bunch of people to watch an event movie. How I react to a movie emotionally is amplified by other viewers' reactions. But I won't miss the experience during a pandemic, and would absolutely welcome the opportunity to stream it at home.

Unless they're going to charge $30 for it like Disney is with Mulan. If you're a family of four, that's a pretty good deal. If you're a family of one, like me, not so much. I wouldn't bat an eye at $15 or $20, because I was paying $17 for IMAX anyway, but $30.... :cursing_r I can't even rationalize it that Jasmine (my cat) is watching too (though she usually does watch TV with me) because she's afraid of big animals. The first time there's a sandworm, she'll bolt. The only big animals she's seen on TV and liked were big cats. She went over to the TV and tapped at them on the screen.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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The wait is over. Dune premieres tonight in my living room as soon as I finish the Thursday evening house cleaning.

I don't think Jasmine will watch with me. She doesn't like big animals (except big cats, which she apparently recognizes as distant relatives). The dragons in GoT terrified her. I have a hunch that sandworms will, too.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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Olorin wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:07 am The wait is over. Dune premieres tonight in my living room as soon as I finish the Thursday evening house cleaning.

I don't think Jasmine will watch with me. She doesn't like big animals (except big cats, which she apparently recognizes as distant relatives). The dragons in GoT terrified her. I have a hunch that sandworms will, too.
Makes you wonder what her brain is seeing.
She had never seen a dragon, so there is nothing in her experience for comparison.
Maybe it was the total and complete unknown,unrecognizable thing that terrified her, regardless of size.
And if so, that is the reason the sandworms will probably scare her too.

So, relative the series...am looking forward to your review, also Lindir's and Val's (and anyone else's should they care to post their thoughts about it).


"Unless you're prepared to surrender everything, don't surrender anything."

When seconds matter, it's reassuring to know that the police are only minutes away.

"Only the paranoid survive."

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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She's a cat...who's to say what she sees or thinks? It's a foregone conclusion that she's never seen a lion or a tiger in her life before, but she clearly recognizes them as cats. Cats can also see things that humans can't see. I can't look at a person and tell that they have something wrong with them internally, but cats can. Years ago when I first started having trouble with my gallbladder, my cat of that time would sit on my lap with an entranced look on her face and slowly probe at my liver with her paw. Years later when I had pulmonary embolism and it was messing with my heart, my cat of that time would sit on my lap and probe at my heart. If this makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up just reading about (it should), imagine if it actually happens to you in person. I think the best theory is that they can see bioelectric fields. Science already knows that different animals see different parts of the electromagnetic spectrum, and medicine is starting to recognize the abilities of cats (and dogs) to detect human illness. And if there's one thing I've learned in many years of living with cats, it is that they are extraordinary creatures. You've maybe heard the saying that when cats get that contemplative, far-off look on their faces, that they are tending to the running of the universe? Wouldn't surprise me a bit if it were true.

Now then, back to the movie. Mild spoilers.

First, comparisons to two other movies. In 2004, the late great Roger Ebert said of the Phantom of the Opera movie, the movie adaptation of the Andrew LLoyd Weber musical, that it was probably the best adaptation that could be made of that source material. That sounded like a bit of a left-handed compliment, as it seemed to denigrate the musical. But I will say, with no implied slight, that Villeneuve's Dune is probably the best adaptation that could be made of Frank Herbert's book. Probably my biggest criticism is that even with 2.5 hours to tell half the story, it felt like it was touching too lightly on some things. There were rumors of a 5-hour director's cut or at least an assembly cut, which Villeneuve has denied, but I'd say that five or ten minutes added back into it for the Blu-ray would be welcome. I have no idea whether that will happen; supposedly Villeneuve doesn't do that and the most we might hope for is a selection of deleted scenes in the supplements.

And the other movie I'd compare and contrast it with is, needless to say, David Lynch's adaptation. Picture it: St. Louis, Missouri, 1984. A friend and I go out for Mexican food prior to the movie, which is a mistake because the restaurant is busy and we have to rush like crazy to get to the movie. It's December in St. Louis so I'm wearing my fur-lined boots, which are very warm but not good to run in. Running across the parking lot, I fall and break a bone in my foot (not badly, but hurt for days afterward). We make it to the movie and at the end, I think, I broke my foot for this? And I was still so naive as to be hyped for it after so cruelly learning the gulf that can exist between book and movie, from the animated Lord of the Rings only six years prior? Meanwhile, my friend coined the phrase "to suck like Dune," which she uses to this day. In fact, I just texted her that I saw the new one, and her immediate and 100% predicable reply was, did it suck like Dune? So anyway, the Lynch version. It is impossible not to make comparisons in your mind between the two as you watch the new one. They are based on the same story and tell it in roughly the same way, much as Peter Jackson's LOTR made some of the same or similar changes or omissions to LOTR that Ralph Bakshi's did. Also, Lynch's Dune lets your hear the characters' internal monologues (which are so much a part of the book) to the point of fetish and farce. Villeneuve does not do that, but rather you hear voices from Paul's visions, and it inescapably conjures memories of Lynch. But there the similarities end. Villeneuve's version is epic, grand, and visually stunning. That's hardly a revelation. Anyone who's seen a Villeneuve movie before could predict it would be visually stunning. And anyone who hadn't seen one, would know it from Dune's trailers. And as far as I could tell, it's pretty faithful to the book. I had read something that Villeneuve admitted to having changed some things, but I couldn't tell you what they were. It was nothing that changed the essential story or seemed out of place. Bear in mind it's been a very long time since I've read the book...more than 15 years probably...and unlike LOTR I've only read Dune perhaps 2 or 3 times in my life. So from my perspective, it was a good adaptation. Now for someone who knows nothing about the story, could they follow it? I don't know. Villeneuve tried to keep the exposition dumps small and unobtrusive, for example, Paul watching a video about Arrakis, as opposed to characters excessively reciting Dune facts to each other.

So, did I like it? It was very well made, but honestly I don't have the emotional attachment to Dune that I do to LOTR, so I can neither judge it as harshly nor embrace it as warmly. Dune is probably the greatest science fiction novel I've ever read, and considered by many people much more widely read in that genre to be THE greatest science fiction novel ever written. The world-building is without peer, and it tells an intellectually engaging story. But it never gave me the warm and fuzzies. And even though the book has a "happy ending" of sorts, it is still a grim read. And the sequels, oh Lord, depressing piled atop depressing. So the movie did what it needed to do, I think. It did have one transcendent moment for me. a totally unexpected "awww" moment, that made my heart sing briefly. I won't spoil it for you other than to say, no, there are no cats in this movie.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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Valkrist wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:37 pm
Olorin wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:25 pm other than to say, no, there are no cats in this movie.
What?!? You mean Baron Harkonnen doesn't make Thufir Hawat milk a cat every day for the antidote to the poison in his body? :O

That's it, I'm getting a refund. :angry:
:laugh:
It took 37 years, but I'd finally forgotten about that. Until just now. :club:
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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Deimos wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:25 pm
Olorin wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:41 pm Villeneuve has said there will be no longer cut. Boo!!!
Isn't that the studio's and/or producer's call?
Usually... unless the director 'accidentally' loses the footage. That would be criminal in this case. Some reviewers have said this movie could benefit from a little more time in a couple of places. I've heard no one complain about the runtime, and 2.5 hours is nothing these days, especially when you watch at home.
This Space for Rent

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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I watched it over the weekend and I enjoyed it, but I need to give it another watch or 2 to really pick up on some things. I have never read Dune nor seen any other adaptations of the work so my eyes, ears, and brain are all Dune virgins, well they were until Saturday night ;P I had no expectations other than everyone giving it massive props and I was definitely not disappointed.
I've been really impressed with Timothee Chalamet these days as well.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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I saw it over the weekend. Twice actually. My wife could not go when I saw it in the theater (fake Imax), so we watched it together on HBO last night.

Dune and LOTR were my two favorite books, and I have read Dune at least a dozens times, so I am super critical of the previous adaptations that never managed to hit the mark. This looks and feels like Dune for me, far more so than any previous adaptation. They could not have gotten a better cast, especially for Paul. He was a coming-of-age skinny little kid in the book, and having adults play him in the previous adaptations never worked for me. Timothy nails him in the movie. I was surprised how much I liked Jason Mamoa in this film too. The brotherly bond between him and Paul really works, and Mamoa does not overdo the character. I'm looking forward to seeing mamoa play the ghola version of Duncan, assuming we ever get a 3rd or 4th film.

Visually Dune and Caladan are stunning, and the cinematography is superb. This looks like Dune and really gets the huge scope of it on screen. The massive scale of the sandworms comes across perfectly, and they finally did the ornithopters right. That was always a dream I had, wanting to so see a real ornithopter flying across the screen before I die. Even the look of the sand dunes and the rocks look right this time.

The music is excellent and really immersive. There is one annoying theme, the generic wailing mid eastern female voice you can hear in the trailers. That is an over used trope in movies these days, and it is over used in the film. It got old really fast, but otherwise, the score really works.

Slight spoilers ahead. As far as the story, it works and Deni gets to the heart of the first half of the book better than the previous versions. It's missing a lot of books scenes I really love, but Deni only had 2 1/2 hours. I wish it was three, as it flew by. The movie has to introduce you to this universe and set up the story to come, and Deni just focuses on just doing that and does it well. That said, I wish he had cut a few scenes out and given us 10-15 minutes of Duncan meeting and living with the Fremen as a flashback instead. I love how they introduce the Fremen, but they are not in the movie enough. I think the film would have been more satisfying if we had more of those characters and that culture introduced. It would have felt a bit more complete when it gets to the ending. It needed more of Stilgar, Chani, Jamis et cetera. Had the audience got to know Jamis before Paul meets and kills him, it would have had more impact. That could have been done through Duncan, and I'm sure my wife would have liked to see more of Jason Mamoa on screen!

I mean, it's not a complete story in any way. It's an intro and set up to a much larger story to come, but if we had gotten to know the Fremen before Paul and Jessica made contact with them at the end, it would have worked better as a stand alone film. I'm not sure how the masses will like this, but my wife had never read the book and she loved it. She just wants to see the rest of the story.
KRDS

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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Denis had final cut, which means his cut was what was shown in theaters. Whether that extends to what is put on a disc, I don't know, but I'm sure the studio will angle for that, if only as an excuse to double-dip down the road. The movie did feel light on characterization. I didn't miss that so much for the Fremen, because I know we are going to see a lot more of them in the second movie, but I missed it relatively to Gurney and Thufir. As I recall, there is no discussion that he (or Piter) is a mentat or what that means. Thufir is hardly in it and appears to be just another Atreides military officer, either than being called on to answer one Data/Spock/Threepio type question.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Olorin wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:48 am and Thufir. As I recall, there is no discussion that he (or Piter) is a mentat or what that means. Thufir is hardly in it and appears to be just another Atreides military officer, either than being called on to answer one Data/Spock/Threepio type question.
That's a real shame, as it's the small but important details like that that make this such a rich and detailed universe. Not explaining what Mentats and their abilities are, why each of the great houses had one, or why Thufir was important as one of Paul's mentors really does a disservice to the books and characters. From what you're saying, it feels like they didn't know what do with him and added him as an afterthought and way to avoid anger from fans if they'd excised him altogether. At least Gurney plays a role in the second half, but Thufir was more prominent in the first. Now, it sounds like they shouldn't have bothered.

I hate hearing stuff like this. I suppose you'll tell me next that there's no mention of Yueh being a Suk Doctor, and what it meant that the Harkonnens had been able to break his imperial conditioning. All that backstory about his wife is gone, isn't it? :(
This Space for Rent

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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It is not nearly as bad as you fear. Dr. Yueh is present and has the diamond on his forehead, though the conditioning is not mentioned. That they promised him his wife back is mentioned, though.

My sense of things is that because Villeneuve is a huge fan, he doesn't realize that people aren't going to know these things if they are not told.

Lastly, I think a good analogy would be the LOTR theatrical cuts vs the extended cuts. The theatrical cuts were good, but the added footage in the extended cuts elevated them to a whole new level. I guess Villeneuve doesn't understand that, or understand how rabid fans are for more. The extended cut on disc is the perfect way to give the fans that extra that they are looking for. But alas....
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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When you only have 2 1/2 hours to introduce the universe and get across the larger story arc, in my opinion explaining what a mentat is would be one of the least important things. That said, my wife never read the book, but just from the single question Leto asked Thufir and how he replied (about how much the Guild formal visit cost), she understood that Thufir did complex mathematics in his head and that he served that purpose for Leto. Nice visual cur with Thufir's eyes too. She got that Piter was the same from the way his eyes flipped up too. No need for unnecessary exposition to over explain it any more than that with a hundred other things that are more important to the story to cram in. Of course, I would have loved it if they did explain more, but time is precious for a film like this.

The good news is that Dune Part 2 was just greenlit by Legendary for a 2023 release.
KRDS

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Nasnandos wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:05 am When you only have 2 1/2 hours to introduce the universe and get across the larger story arc, in my opinion explaining what a mentat is would be one of the least important things. That said, my wife never read the book, but just from the single question Leto asked Thufir and how he replied (about how much the Guild formal visit cost), she understood that Thufir did complex mathematics in his head and that he served that purpose for Leto. Nice visual cur with Thufir's eyes too. She got that Piter was the same from the way his eyes flipped up too. No need for unnecessary exposition to over explain it any more than that with a hundred other things that are more important to the story to cram in. Of course, I would have loved it if they did explain more, but time is precious for a film like this.

The good news is that Dune Part 2 was just greenlit by Legendary for a 2023 release.
Not going to dispute any of that, because you are right and I agree. I'm mainly lamenting the fact that you lose so much depth in the process. Yeah, exposition is the movie-killer, and the retort is always "Go read the book then", but still...

One instance where this approach does a disservice to the movie and the plot, however, (and I'm going by a ton of comments here from folks that loved the movie - I haven't seen it yet) is the lack of context and buildup for Doctor Yueh's betrayal. Apparently there's almost no set up, no indication of his loyalty to House Atreides (other than the fact that he's just there), or no mention of the imperial conditioning that makes the betrayal all that more dramatic and surprising in the book, and therefore when the betrayal in the movie does come, it feels empty. A little more time spent (like a minute or two more of dialogue here and there establishing his relationship and service to Leto and Paul could have made this come across as the actual tragedy that it was, rather than the general shrug of indifference that audiences seem to be giving to that particular moment. I think that's a pity.

Instead, apparently a lot of time was spent lingering on vistas of Dune and a lot of sand-touching (?) ... introspective moments that have their use, I'm sure, but not at the cost of robbing characters of the significance of their presence and contribution to this story.
This Space for Rent

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Valkrist wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:20 am
One instance where this approach does a disservice to the movie and the plot, however, (and I'm going by a ton of comments here from folks that loved the movie - I haven't seen it yet)...
I hope you are basing that on multiple posters and won't take flack from something that only I reported...I could've missed it. I was feeling pretty lousy that evening.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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Valkrist wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:20 am One instance where this approach does a disservice to the movie and the plot, however, (and I'm going by a ton of comments here from folks that loved the movie - I haven't seen it yet) is the lack of context and buildup for Doctor Yueh's betrayal. Apparently there's almost no set up, no indication of his loyalty to House Atreides (other than the fact that he's just there
Wait until you see it. I have to totally disagree with those saying that. There was plenty of build up to his betrayal, but you don't need unnecessary exposition about imperial conditioning to get across that he is the caring, trusted family doctor of House Atreides, who then turns on them. The reason he did it, his revenge on the Baron, and his finale are all there in the movie. They actually gave him more screen time than I expected.

As far as vistas of Dune and sand touching - thankfully, yes, there are lots of beautiful vistas of Dune. My biggest complaint with the previous adaptations is we don't really see much of Dune, and when we did, it did not look like the Dune in the book. Dune is as much a character in this film as Paul, Jessica, or Leto. Deni did a great job of making it actually feel and look like the Arrakis of the book. It's very immersive when seeing it on the big screen.
KRDS

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Olorin wrote:
I hope you are basing that on multiple posters and won't take flack from something that only I reported...I could've missed it. I was feeling pretty lousy that evening.
Yes, these are people posting elsewhere. 8 out 10 comments all mention the movie makes inexplicable cuts to a lot of lore and small plot bits that could have easily been explained in a line or two, such as why there are no computers 8,000 years in the future yet this is sci-fi movie, and why the spice is important (!) - that last bit really stunned me to hear. Really? Other than Paul and his role in everything, isn't spice what drives the entire plot of this book? How is that glossed over? It's also been noted that a lot of these exposition bits were in the actual script but dropped from filming because of time, most likely, or a fear of overwhelming the viewer with information. It seems the tradeoff is that there's too little information instead. I think it's easier for someone intimately familiar with the books to dismiss that because they already know the lore and don't need to see it up on the screen, but I continue to read that non-book people were confused by a lot of elements of the movie.
Nasnandos wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:13 pm
Wait until you see it.
Always the best advice in a case like this. :thumbs_up
This Space for Rent

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DV is promising more on mentats in Part 2, so perhaps that glossing over will be dressed up. However, it is important to remember that Part 2 isn't filmed yet, let alone edited and premiered, so any things we felt lacking in the first part but promised for the second part could end up on the cutting room floor, like Gurney's baliset scene from Part 1. DV said it broke his heart to cut that scene. That being the case: Dude...do a longer cut for the disc!
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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Olorin wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:14 am Dude...do a longer cut for the disc!
I know some disagree as the director's vision is the heart of the film, but there are some cases (and this may be one of them) where thankfully the studio doesn't need his permission to release a longer cut.

There are more than a few extended versions of movies out there that are not under the label of 'Director's Cut.' The flip side of that is that if DV declines to participate we may end up with something subpar to what he intended.

A home video release gives a studio a prime opportunity to make a little bit extra cash by releasing a longer version that many fans will want, so it's a win-win, and A-D-D movie theatre crowds don't have to chafe under a longer running time.
This Space for Rent

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"...and A-D-D movie theatre crowds don't have to chafe under a longer running time."
What a great description of movie theatre crowds...A-D-D....so very true.


"Unless you're prepared to surrender everything, don't surrender anything."

When seconds matter, it's reassuring to know that the police are only minutes away.

"Only the paranoid survive."

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Valkrist wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:01 pm I know some disagree as the director's vision is the heart of the film, but there are some cases (and this may be one of them) where thankfully the studio doesn't need his permission to release a longer cut.
They actually do, but Legendary has a great relationship with Villeneuve and won't do anything to jeopardize that, especially since they just signed on to back Dune Part II, along with WB. They could not do it on their own anyway, since they are not the only producer. Unlike David Lynch, Villeneuve has final cut rights on Dune and is one of the owner/producers of the film under his own production company.

Unfortunately, he seems to have zero interest in a longer cut. Just a day or two ago he again flatly said "The director’s cut is what people are watching in theaters right now. There will be no other cut." I'm sure we will get to see some deleted scenes though.
KRDS

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Well, I guess that's what contract clauses are for, and you make a good point about wanting to maintain the relationship as smooth as possible given the second movie (and possibly a third down the road?) are going ahead.

I guess DV is the opposite of guys like Ridley Scott, where the later-release of a Director's Cut has vastly improved a movie, like Kingdom of Heaven, or at least filled in a minor plot hole or two, like Gladiator. I'll keep my hopes that there will be some deleted scenes for Dune one day, but never underestimate the power of fans making relentless requests about something (if the Synder Cut of JL proves anything). If the other powers-that-be smell dollars in the air, they might just convince DV to relent and release a longer cut of the movie on home video. Throw enough money at someone while stroking their ego a bit, and anything's possible. :crazy:
This Space for Rent

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Deimos wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 7:20 pm "...and A-D-D movie theatre crowds don't have to chafe under a longer running time."
What a great description of movie theatre crowds...A-D-D....so very true.
I'm glad you posted that, as I was unclear what Val meant when he originally posted that. Reading it a second time, it clicked.

You see, I am much more of a music/CD guy than a psychology guy, so I read ADD as Analog/Digital/Digital, as in how they categorized the different phases of recording (back in the days when people cared about such things).
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

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I just saw a headline in my newsfeed that says "Dune has deep Muslim roots. The movie erases them." I didn't click as I had a sense the article was clickbait.

The book definitely draws on Islam. The religion of the Fremen, and of some (though not all) others in the story is Buddislam, when one assumes to be a merged version of Buddhism and Islam. I don't recall any tenets of this religion, as it's been a very long time since I read Dune, nor do I know enough about either real-world faith to know what was drawn from which faith. Some characters in the book read the Orange Catholic Bible. I also assumed that to represent a descendant of Christianity, but I don't really know.

In any event, I thought it very misleading to say "the movie erases them." As we have discussed, the movie glosses over a number of other things from its densely written source and in light of that, to make it sound like it intentionally slighted Muslims, or any other faith, is misleading and muckracking. And what if it had included it? Probably many more people will see the movie than will read the book, people who thus far might have been unaware of the book's religion and might have been offended by it. In today's hypersensitive climate, does a movie like this want to distract from its main story arc by including something nonessential yet potentially controversial.

I guess I don't really know what I'm trying to say, other than that the article struck me the wrong way.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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So much of “entertainment” news on either side of the political divide is trying to bait the others into getting angry and feeling compelled to read the article.

I guess it’s a bit like the current “controversy” about the new Halloween movie being homophobic because a gay couple is murdered. But, what about all the straight people that have been murdered in those films? It’s not serious journalism and only serves to pit us against each other.

Like you, Olorin, these articles rub me up the wrong way and I try to avoid them at all costs.

On the movie, I haven’t as of yet seen it but I would like to. I haven’t read the books either but a friend of mine has and he’s quite excited for the movie.
"All those moments will be lost, in time... like tears, in the rain..."

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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Dune is turning out to be a success with both fans and critics, so naturally people are going to try and find some way to take it down and destroy it with silly, divisive click bait headlines and stories. I have seen the "Paul is a white savior" headline dozens of times now too. That's just the nature of the world now. It's all just idiocy to anyone who has read the books.
KRDS

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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Yeah, the whole white savior argument is silly here. I think it was even raised when Herbert was still alive, and he said Paul was definitely not a white savior.

If you think about it, the book does not say he's white, though he's always portrayed that way. And while he ends Harkonnen oppression of the Fremen, he unleashes a Fremen jihad on the galaxy that costs countless lives. So definitely not a savior.

I had read that the movie was going to avoid the word jihad because of political sensitivity. What I don't remember is what was to replace it, conquest or crusade. Crusade could certainly be just as sensitive politically.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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I just ignore virtue-signaling, ignorant people trying to score points by inciting outrage to drive their agendas.

It's the sort of garbage that our social-media driven world has succumbed to.

As for the word 'jihad', that's a good point and I wonder if (when I was talking about no mention of why there are no computers) this was an intentional omission of the Butlerian Jihad. Having said that, they could have easily used another term in it's place, like you said.
This Space for Rent

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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True. but unless they were going to include a bit of dreaded exposition to explain the absence of computers (which most people would probably not notice, anyway), there would be no reason for the Butlerian Jihad to come up. On the other hand, Paul sees a vision of "his" jihad.

BTW, Val, when are you seeing this movie?
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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Lindir wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:31 pm I guess it’s a bit like the current “controversy” about the new Halloween movie being homophobic because a gay couple is murdered. But, what about all the straight people that have been murdered in those films? It’s not serious journalism and only serves to pit us against each other.
I was completely unaware of this controversy, probably because I am not following the Halloween sequels at all. The new one a few years ago that got so much critical acclaim left me pretty flat, so I had little interest in the new one to begin with. Then I saw Jeremy Jahn's review on YouTube; I enjoy his reviews and think they are usually pretty on the mark. He gave the new movie a pretty dismal score, so that confirmed my bias.

But in answer to the controversy over whether sexual orientation should spare you from being murdered in a movie, it might be what they say about pets. You can kill all the humans you want in a movie, but you can't appear to harm animals or the audience will be upset. Michael Meyers is an equal opportunity killer. He doesn't care who you sleep with. Moreover, there have been two somewhat recent horror movies that killed gay characters, It Chapter 2 and Scream 4. I wonder if those killings were controversial.
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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Ok, watched the movie yesterday, so here goes:

What a grandiose spectacle.

It took me back to an era in filmmaking that feels largely bygone today. The vast scope, ambition, and visual awe are all there onscreen for one to immerse themselves in, and it was a heady, awesome experience. I think DV got the imagery 100% correct (though I admit it was a bit jarring at first to let go of nearly 40 years of having the visuals of the Lynch adaptation seared into my mind). Having said that, everything in the 2021 trumps the flawed 1984 movie. About the only regret I have is that the memorable line of dialogue between Leto and Paul about something sleeping inside of us when there is no change, which later leads to 'the sleeper has awakened' moment is not in this new movie. Imagine my shock then at my own spotty memory, when I looked it up and realized that those lines were not in the book either. So, at least for that, Kudos to the 1984 script.

The casting was spot-on, and I can now say with the benefit of personal experience that I was not bothered in the least by the two choices/performances that most (even those that have reviewed the movie very favourably) have criticized: Rebecca Ferguson and Jason Momoa. I think both did a fantastic job, with Ferguson in particular nailing the shifts between motherly instinct and Bene Gesserit priorities. As for the one character that was gender-swapped, I'm not sure how I didn't know that ahead of time, and though it has become a general practice of late that I find irritating and pointlessly pandering, it did not bother me in the least here and did not impact the movie or character at all. In fact, the race-change that went along with the gender swap makes perfect sense when one considers the updated depiction of that character's daughter onscreen (being deliberately vague here for anyone who hasn't seen it yet).

As for my earlier concerns about the lack of detail and lore in some of my more beloved aspects of this universe... well, they're mostly still there, though I certainly understand there wasn't time for everything, and these nitpicks are mainly personal and not from a place where I feel the narrative is hindered by their omission. I still feel the set up for Doctor Yueh's betrayal was lacking in... something... anything... that would have given it a bit more impact. He gets all of two short scenes before the main one, so if I wasn't familiar with the book, I could have been left feeling that Yueh could have been easily exchanged for any of the nameless Atreides house staff or host of nameless officers with the same effect. I don't know, it's hard to pin down, but it felt emotionless to me on a level that the '84 version did not.

On everything else, I did ask my wife (who has not read the books but loves nearly everything that is sci-fi) if she had any questions or trouble understanding anything, and she said no, it was fairly easy to follow other than the few moments when dialogue was difficult to understand due to the sound editing (Paul whispering after his Jihad vision was especially difficult to make out - IMAX amplified way too much to a detriment in that scene). She also did not pick up on Thufir Hawat being a form of exceptional human because the one scene where he displays that ability is a blink-and-you-miss-it moment (no pun intended), and as for Piter, I just about missed it myself—and we were both paying attention, belive me. Again, symptoms of a massively complex universe that there is simply no time to dive into beyond what is needed to drive the plot forward in a film. Regrettable, but understandable.

It does make me feel though (and I'm agreeing with many here), that I could have done with one or two less slo-mo vision sequences of Chani and had that time devoted to spending time with some other characters just a tiny bit more. It's almost like they knew, because of the point of the story at which the movie ends, and given how heavily marketed Zendaya's casting was, that they needed to find a way to include her more somehow. I know how important she is later, and how Paul's visions of her foreshadow what is to happen to him, but again, I felt it was a tad overdone at the cost of short-changing many of the remaining (and yes, supporting) cast.

In conclusion, and in case it's not clear in light of my nitpicks, I absolutely loved it and cannot wait for Part 2, :thumbs_up
This Space for Rent

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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Olorin wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:46 am
Lindir wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:31 pm I guess it’s a bit like the current “controversy” about the new Halloween movie being homophobic because a gay couple is murdered. But, what about all the straight people that have been murdered in those films? It’s not serious journalism and only serves to pit us against each other.
I was completely unaware of this controversy, probably because I am not following the Halloween sequels at all. The new one a few years ago that got so much critical acclaim left me pretty flat, so I had little interest in the new one to begin with. Then I saw Jeremy Jahn's review on YouTube; I enjoy his reviews and think they are usually pretty on the mark. He gave the new movie a pretty dismal score, so that confirmed my bias.

But in answer to the controversy over whether sexual orientation should spare you from being murdered in a movie, it might be what they say about pets. You can kill all the humans you want in a movie, but you can't appear to harm animals or the audience will be upset. Michael Meyers is an equal opportunity killer. He doesn't care who you sleep with. Moreover, there have been two somewhat recent horror movies that killed gay characters, It Chapter 2 and Scream 4. I wonder if those killings were controversial.
Stuff like this, controversy that is, isn't new. With social media things just go "viral" without any thought. I remember back when Freddy vs Jason came out and Freddy had the choice of chasing a black woman or a white woman and he said "how sweet, dark meat" and people said it was racist. If that would have happened today there would have been massive blowback just because the times we live in.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: Denis Villeneuve's Dune

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Valkrist wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:52 am ...I absolutely loved it and cannot wait for Part 2, :thumbs_up
So, can you guess what I found to be the "awwwww" moment?

So here is a video talking about alleged deleted scenes, based on what is known or reported to have been shot, including more about Dr. Yueh (thought not necessarily a discussion of Imperial conditioning): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGfsJT6ZwVU
"Olorin I was in the West that is forgotten...."
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